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Emirates Profit Slumps 72%  
User currently offlineUAEflyer From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2006, 1084 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 20650 times:

It seems that the oil price ate their profit

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/emira...72-as-fuel-bill-surges-457389.html

94 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1151 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 20604 times:

Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):
It seems that the oil price ate their profit

Though times. But EK's doing much better than most major airlines.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19230 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 20353 times:

A big drop, but a decent profit nonetheless.

Quoting Chiad (Reply 1):
But EK's doing much better than most major airlines.

Indeed.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineEKGOLD From Australia, joined May 2005, 207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 20082 times:

I guess it is just as well that they don't pay full price for their fuel as professed on this website by others... The result would have been diabolical otherwise   

User currently offlineRaptor1090 From United Arab Emirates, joined May 2011, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 20014 times:

The financial statements can be found here:
http://www.theemiratesgroup.com/engl...h/facts-figures/annual-report.aspx


User currently offlineafterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 1211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 19965 times:

Hey, they still makes some profit, while lots of other airlines don't.

User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 19781 times:

Quoting Chiad (Reply 1):
But EK's doing much better than most major airlines.

If ''most major airlines'' raised capital under the same low interest rates, if ''most major airlines'' didn't have to do regional/domestic flying and hub feeding, if ''most major airlines'' could hire and fire people willy-nilly, if ''most other major airlines'' were supported by the government behind them and weren't tied to regulations, they'd be profitable too.

Creating the EK brand was an impressive undertaking, because they're profitable (~ it works). If they weren't, EK could hardly be called an ''achievement''.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 19357 times:

Quoting something (Reply 6):
If ''most major airlines'' raised capital under the same low interest rates, if ''most major airlines'' didn't have to do regional/domestic flying and hub feeding, if ''most major airlines'' could hire and fire people willy-nilly, if ''most other major airlines'' were supported by the government behind them and weren't tied to regulations, they'd be profitable too.

Curious do you even know what interest rates EK pays on their capital? What other international carriers are paying? I read an annual report a couple of years ago, and rates didn't seem all that unusual to me, if you aren't just running your mouth and actually have facts to back it his statement, please post the rates, I would love to see the difference.

While EK doesn't do any "domestic flying", they most certainly do regional flying. They do a lot of regional flying as a matter of fact. And to suggest they don't do hub feeding is just asinine! That is all they do, DXB is one of the largest airports in the world (pax traffic), not because Dubai is some sort of massive business center or tourist destination but because Emirates funnels almost all of its traffic through their DXB hub! I would bet their connecting traffic at their DXB hub is probably the largest percentage of any airline in the world, and certainly top 5.

Outside of N. America and Europe, most airlines (and companies in general) enjoy the ability to fire people "wily-nily" as you say. That is not unique to Emirates. But I don't see how this is relevant. I have heard no complaints about former Emirates employees who were unjustly fired. I also hear very few complaints from employees about the airline mistreating or under paying them. Which ironically is quite unique, since that is a common complaint from employees of "most major airlines".

Not sure what you mean by supported by government. "Most major airlines" are supported by the government behind them. And all major airlines follow regulations!!! In fact they all follow the same regulations, because everywhere they fly they must adhere to the local regulations in place!

Emirates might enjoy some benefits like low taxation (and they certainly arent the only ones - heck even in the US where we have high taxes, because of bankruptcy certain airlines were allowed to carry credits that allowed them to reduce or eliminate their tax bill for years to come), but they are profitable mainly because of their business model and how they execute it. There is no benefit that Emirates has that is not enjoyed by other airlines around the world, in other words there is nothing unique to Emirates. You show me their interest rate and I'll show you an airline with a cheaper rate, you show me their domestic/regional ops and I'll show you an airline doing less, you show me the support they get from government and I'll show you an airline with more government support. I think you get the point (at least I hope you do).


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9392 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 19358 times:

As something already said, put that in relation with the work conditions LH and AF/Kl have to live and deal with and the profit is not that bright at all. And, making that statement, I assume that they pay market prices for fuel.

But work conditons alone, the lack of taxation, social conributions (in Germany alone, the direct employers contribution to health, pension job less insurance amounts to more than 20% of the salary, the other 20 % paid by the workers have to be generated as well in the company. Low skilled labour is by far less expensive than in Europe and the conditions would be intolerable here.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinehuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1114 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 19359 times:

Quoting something (Reply 6):
If ''most major airlines'' raised capital under the same low interest rates, if ''most major airlines'' didn't have to do regional/domestic flying and hub feeding, if ''most major airlines'' could hire and fire people willy-nilly, if ''most other major airlines'' were supported by the government behind them and weren't tied to regulations, they'd be profitable too.

Last I checked, most of these airlines eventually go bust.

That EK went in the other direction in terms of profitability and growth says alot about the validity of your assumptions.

Meanwhile, SQ's profits also plunged 69% for the Jan-Mar 2012 period. It must be a truly pathetic airline to do this badly despite all the advantages!

[Edited 2012-05-10 04:54:47]


It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18580 times:

Historically, airlines both in the USA and outside have required massive capital injections to remain in business. Quite simply the record shows they have not actually made money since KLM was founded (1919 ?)

http://chartingtheeconomy.com/?p=1541

Note Warren Buffett's comments in this one:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3679292/...truggle-paths-profit/#.T6vHi1Kuk9g



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19230 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18488 times:

I wish such threads wouldn't inevitably descend into the same tired and cliched comments.


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4920 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18415 times:

Even though profits have dropped guarantee EK announce another billion $$$ profit...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19230 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks ago) and read 18328 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 12):
Even though profits have dropped guarantee EK announce another billion $$$ profit...

EK itself (the airline) earned $409m.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9392 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks ago) and read 18174 times:

Right, that is roughly 300 million € on sales of roughly € 12,750 Billion which stands against LH sales of € 28 734 billion with a resulting operational profit of € 820,00 million.

Good show, LH, I'd say, under much rougher conditions than EK enjoys. (Unions, social contributions, legal system etc.)



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinehuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1114 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks ago) and read 18011 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
under much rougher conditions than EK enjoys. (Unions, social contributions, legal system etc.)

But most legacy European and American carriers had a much earlier headstart during times when such "rough conditions" were still in their infancy decades ago. That the recent upstarts have risen to rival the older airlines despite the current operating climate is surely something to be lauded.



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9392 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 17807 times:

It is always comparing apples and peaches when companies based in such different countries like the UAE and Germany are compared. If you can get the EBITDA from EK to show against the 2.546 Billion EBITDA of LH we would even have a better comparison.

Now, EK is owned by the UAE government whereas LH is a private company, listed at the FRA stock exchange which gets slammed wth taxes and ETS trades by the German government. Besides that they have to observe all kind of laws, rules and regulations in a state ruled by the law where every citiuzen can sue the government, a company or any other authority. The UAE is ruled by decret. No need to say anmore.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17511 posts, RR: 45
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 17729 times:

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 15):
But most legacy European and American carriers had a much earlier headstart during times when such "rough conditions" were still in their infancy decades ago.

True, and by comparison it's only going to get more difficult and competitive for EK, especially if India and Pakistan ever gets their house in order.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinewill777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 174 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 17564 times:

Quoting something (Reply 6):
because they're profitable (~ it works). If they weren't, EK could hardly be called an ''achievement

This applies to literally any business in the entire world. If Apple lost money, they wouldn't be here anymore. But no, it is one of the most profitable companies in the world and continues to grow at amazing rates.

If Emirates is profitable, clearly they are doing something right, and they should continue to expand.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9392 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 17381 times:

Quoting will777 (Reply 18):
This applies to literally any business in the entire world. If Apple lost money,

Apples are apples and peaches are peaches.

Apple is a manufacturer and airlines are service industry. You cannot compare manufacturers and service businesses both directly.

Does not even work in the same country.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineHachikoDog From Finland, joined Dec 2010, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16202 times:

I´ll drink to that. EK has always been overpraised airline. Don´t know why... Because of IFE? Or B77W´s? There are a lot of better airlines than EK. Even in "low cost" concept...

User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15769 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 7):
Curious do you even know what interest rates EK pays on their capital?

I don't, but it's a logical inference. Their default risk, with Abu Dhabi behind them, is practically zero. They also don't pay taxes and they don't have shareholders, ie they can repay their credits as freely as they please. EK can virtually use their entire profit for investments/depreciation. LH can't. A.) Legally, they can't depreciate more than their profits and B.) They need to pay off stake- and shareholders with about 2/3 of their profits, rendering their credit period - per default - 66% longer than that of EK.

Also, EK can also order in larger quantities than LH can. Buying 100 A380s will obviously get you a cheaper unit-price than buying 20 of them. Even if LH wanted to buy that many A380s, they could never find creditors to raise that much capital.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 7):
And to suggest they don't do hub feeding is just asinine! That is all they do, DXB is one of the largest airports in the world (pax traffic), not because Dubai is some sort of massive business center or tourist destination but because Emirates funnels almost all of its traffic through their DXB hub! I would bet their connecting traffic at their DXB hub is probably the largest percentage of any airline in the world, and certainly top 5.

Interesting. They can't seem to emphasize enough how valuable of a destination Dubai is, and that only 42% (or so) of their traffic are transits. If that isn't true, and DXB is as you say, nothing but an airport, what incentive would Germany have to grant EK more landing rights? Trade is quid pro quo, so if EK can suck all of the passengers out of Germany, what will the German airlines get in return? Germany has a population of 82m., Dubai has 0 if as you say, nobody leaves or enters the airplane there.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 7):
Not sure what you mean by supported by government. "Most major airlines" are supported by the government behind them. And all major airlines follow regulations!!! In fact they all follow the same regulations, because everywhere they fly they must adhere to the local regulations in place!
EK wants a new airport, they get it. EK doesn't want a ban on night flights, so there's none. EK doesn't want unions, so there are none. EK doesn't want labor protection, so there is none (hire today, fire tomorrow). EK doesn't want to pay benefits to their employees, or at least their employee's dependents, so they don't have to. I could extend this list for quite a bit.

Why? Because the government creates the most convenient business environment for EK, whereas in Western democracies, like it or not, the people create the business environment for the companies by being able to vote on what is cool and what is not. Night flights for example, are usually voted ''not cool'' in most countries. Ask LH what that is doing to their bottom line.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 7):
But I don't see how this is relevant. I have heard no complaints about former Emirates employees who were unjustly fired. I also hear very few complaints from employees about the airline mistreating or under paying them. Which ironically is quite unique, since that is a common complaint from employees of "most major airlines".

If having a boy- or girlfriend is a just cause for your employment's termination, to name just one of the many reasons people have gotten fired for, then you're probably right.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 7):
in other words there is nothing unique to Emirates.

Of course EK isn't unique. There are also Qatar, Oman, Etihad, Gulf Air etc. Heck, not even their business idea is unique as it's almost an identical copy of Singapore Airlines. They even copied Silk Air with FlyDubai. So I absolutely agree. EK isn't unique at all.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 15):
That the recent upstarts have risen to rival the older airlines despite the current operating climate is surely something to be lauded.

Don't get me wrong, I do find the whole EK operation very impressive and laudable. More companies should be like them in many ways. Many of their marketing strategies are genius. But it's all been done before (SQ) and secondly, more companies probably would be like them if they had the means to. In view of those facts, I just don't find their results very impressive. They're decent and testament of the viability of their business model. If they [the numbers] weren't [decent], then what would EK be other than a failed dream, is what I'm trying to say. They make money, their model works, good for them, other airlines can learn things from them, but in light of what others are doing under much rougher conditions, EK are nothing new under the sun.

[Edited 2012-05-10 11:36:29]


..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineFURUREFA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 802 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15771 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
As something already said, put that in relation with the work conditions LH and AF/Kl have to live and deal with and the profit is not that bright at all. And, making that statement, I assume that they pay market prices for fuel.

Right, but in the end, it doesn't matter. If France wants more competitive airlines in the global market, then perhaps it should modify its work requirements and taxation levels. That's the thing with global trade.

It's not EK's fault they are headquartered in a country with low taxes, just like it's not AF's fault it operates in a country with regulatory policies that are hostile to business and investment.

Quoting something (Reply 6):
If ''most major airlines'' raised capital under the same low interest rates, if ''most major airlines'' didn't have to do regional/domestic flying and hub feeding, if ''most major airlines'' could hire and fire people willy-nilly, if ''most other major airlines'' were supported by the government behind them and weren't tied to regulations, they'd be profitable too.

Show me the rates at which EK raises capital? Do you know at what rate they most recently floated their debt? I remember hearing that last year they raised about $500 million at an interest rate of about 4% - that's what one would expect for a corporation of that size and stability.

Likewise, no airline has to do regional/domestic flying and hub feeding. The airline industries in the US (apart of EAS) and Europe are unregulated. They only fly the routes they do out of choice and strategy. No one forces DL to fly to AGS.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9392 posts, RR: 29
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13652 times:

Quoting something (Reply 21):
They need to pay off stake- and shareholders with about 2/3 of their profits

In bad years the shareholders get nothing, in not so good years they get 0,25 € per share 8for 2011) and in the best year ever it was - i think € 1,10. In any case, 1/3 for the shareholders, 1/3 for the employees as boni and 1(3 retained in the company.

Quoting something (Reply 21):
Even if LH wanted to buy that many A380s, they could never find creditors to raise that much capital.

That's not LHs ppolicy anyhow. i have shown here how EK finances some of their assets. LH is a bit more conservative. I don't have the time to analyse the annual returns, but EK is by far in a batter position, I mentioned that here as well.

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 22):
It's not EK's fault they are headquartered in a country with low taxes,

There's nothing about fault, in business it's about facts. facts only is what companies have to cope with. Politics and business have different interestes, except in well run countries like Singapore. France or Germany won't change their social laws, the poltics are populistics and the industry is the cash cow that keeps it running.

In Dubai, the state owns not only the airline but the airport, the handling company, it runs the aviation authorities and most important, it sets the game rules as well. These are the facts, European, Asian and American airlines have to cope with.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinegreenwichsud From United States of America, joined May 2008, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 12822 times:

my my..

Just a few short years ago (when the A380 orders started rolling in) EK was the toast of Europe on these boards. The rhetoric has changed dramatically (a near 180 degree turn) now that it is clear just what they intended to do with all that capacity.

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 22):
Likewise, no airline has to do regional/domestic flying and hub feeding.

I've always wondered how this model would work in the US - an airline that connected only the top 15-20 key domestic cities with reduced frequency and larger aircraft and placed a larger focus on international flying. Presumably that model is not workable here as no carrier seems to be moving wholeheartedly in that direction.


25 KAL7478 : Quote HachicoDog "I´ll drink to that. EK has always been overpraised airline. Don´t know why... Because of IFE? Or B77W´s? There are a lot of bette
26 SuperCaravelle : Look at how many EU airlines still serve Dubai, some even adding flights. It indicates both that EK is not on another planet and that Dubai is not onl
27 FURUREFA : Right, so the fact is that EK operates in an environment that is conducive to increasing capital growth, business, and investment. "Well run" is cert
28 ElPistolero : Yes, but in other countries they are a fact of life. Most of India's international flights used to operate at night to get into Europe early AM. Flyi
29 Post contains images juantrippe82 : There was an airline like that, I think it was called Pan Am . And we all know how that turned out.
30 huaiwei : Yes, and so LH and its predecesors were never government owned? Really? Read my comment again, as I implied that EK is now growing at a stage of its
31 flightsimer : I was thinking the same thing, but when deregulation came, it did not allow PanAm to expand what little of a domestic route system it had on its own.
32 Post contains images cheeken : I think EK has the huge advantage of having a website that works...
33 Post contains links Docpepz : SIA's bond yields are 2.15%, while when EK issued bonds they had a coupon rate of 5.1%. As such, SQ can raise money at much lower interest rates (but
34 lightsaber : EY competes with EK. If anything, Abu Dhabi has been trying to curb there once lesser cousin. I remember once upon a time Western nations tried to ex
35 Max Q : Seriously, this is how we judge Airlines these days ?
36 PanHAM : These were the days of national carriers, when infrastructure that was vital for the rest of the industry needed to be build up. We can talk about th
37 Post contains links lightsaber : I would like to have more of a discussion of EK's actual operations. For example, I find it interesting how cargo grew only 1.6%. Now, the prediction
38 windshear : How can their profit drop almost completely out of the floor only in 2011 because of the price on oil, if their claim that they always had paid for th
39 PanHAM : yes, started in the second half. EK is bstill doing well, they have an excellent cargo team. They invest a lot in marketing. They have excellent cond
40 vegetables2001 : Complaint is that limiting rights costs jobs and denies local service to those customers who wish it. The only people who benefit are LH's shareholde
41 something : You don't understand the term 'democracy' then. Democracy is a form of self-governance. That's why the US Americans can have their death penalties an
42 PanHAM : well, thanks for reminding me. Why don't you complain to your boss that he does not pay you a million quid per month , yu could boost the eocnomy tha
43 ElPistolero : No, I am afraid it is you who have misinterpreted democracy. Democracy is meant to be self-governance, but in the day-to-day realities of this world,
44 PanHAM : Nobody has to fly through FRA to get to DXB. People can fly via LHR, CDG, MUC, ZRH, VIE, DOH, there is ample choice. Price wise it is competetive as
45 Post contains images ElPistolero : Ah yes, I keep ignoring high speed rail links (our rail infrastructure here in Canada is a bit.... outdated). I see your point with STR, but I do fin
46 PanHAM : BER had three airports and if they are keep going the way they are it will be zero by the end of the year. Anyhow, BER has an airport, but the catchm
47 SIA747Megatop : Many airlines aren't doing (relatively) well under the current economic circumstances, SQ included. EK is no different. Emirates is a great marketing
48 EK413 : My bad, didn't read the article prior to my statement.... Ain't going to argue your points as I too believe they have probably one of if not the best
49 Post contains links lightsaber : But it is a city state as Qatar showed (early in the UAE), city states have the ability to leave the UAE. In effect, each Emirate competes with the o
50 PanHAM : Should read : Intercontinental. The "growing cities" problem is that 25% of its inhabitants live on social securiry/welfare and tha city itself is su
51 lightsaber : Thank you for your reply. While people do switch seats, it reduces the number of potential passengers. The question is, which is better for Germany?
52 PanHAM : There is ample and easy access to BER from all directions. QR serves BEr and with the financial investment of EY into AB, that region is coveered as
53 something : What if EK needs/wants to grow their network faster than they can get new airplanes delivered? Of course they want to get rid of them but that might
54 ElPistolero : If BER is so well-served, then what difference does it make if EK comes in. You point out that they will be competing with QR and an EY-supported AB.
55 ElPistolero : YVR? Scheduled service or seasonal/charter? How many of the other ones are scheduled services? I think he's referring to the mode of transportation s
56 PanHAM : I think I - and others - have said it multiple times. The bi-lateral gives EK a choice between 49 flights per week to any number of destinations they
57 Post contains images ElPistolero : Not quite a joke, then. As you've so succinctly (and perhaps unwittingly) put it, the German government IS prohibiting Germans from enjoying the bene
58 Post contains images something : Because they have very generous traffic rights as it is. Besides, maybe Germany has given Qatar guarantees to keep EK out of BER and STR. Purely spec
59 imiakhtar : Source? Not impressive? A business model which has consistently kept them in the black for over two decades. A model which has delivered double digit
60 PanHAM : Are you joking? A referendum for the commercial interests of a foreign company owned by a feudalist country? Besides that we have a representative de
61 lightsaber : What if you have the option to switch the location? For example, I know individuals who are directors in IT outsourcing. During the boom years, it be
62 ElPistolero : I meant facetious. But fallacious works too. Perhaps, though we can argue on how much of it was lost on the seat-switch concept. As it stands, you ca
63 Post contains links something : The US Air Transport Association cited the financing of three Boeing 777s for Delta Airlines, which without any export-backed credit insurance last ye
64 ElPistolero : But it still begs a question - why take from Peter to give to Paul when theres more than enough around for Peter and Paul? I never said EK was about
65 Raptor1090 : In Dubai, the state owns not only the airline but the airport, the handling company, it runs the aviation authorities and most important, it sets the
66 Raptor1090 : The last Emirates airline bond issued had an interest rate of 5.125% XS0632833553 5.125% Emirates Airlines 08.06.2016 Just google the bond code for p
67 lightsaber : That is amazing... the bond market has spoken. What rates are QR, EY, AI, LH, BA, QF and AF paying? I'm just curious at their rated comparative healt
68 PanHAM : First of all, you confuse "public" interest with "personal" interest. There is a public inhterest to have an infrastrcture available which includes a
69 Post contains images astuteman : ???? From my seat, the A380 orders rolling in was the catalyst for all the anti EK rhetoric on these fora. Not sure that a $10Bn bailout example mean
70 StarAC17 : They should expand, the question I have is whether they are growing too fast to be sustainable BUF steals low-yielding VFR traffic from YYZ, and it i
71 Post contains links something : They are not penalized. Trade is, per definition, a giving and taking. EK is given more than Germany is taking. The aviation trade balance is already
72 scbriml : They've been profitably sustaining growth that most other airlines can only dream about for years (literally decades). There's nothing that I can see
73 Post contains links imiakhtar : That's not unparalleled. If it wasn't for the US Exim bank and the similarly low interest rates on offer, PK would not have been able to finance thei
74 Raptor1090 : And they don't. Dubai is not a corporation, it is a government - and gets money at much higher rates compared to other similar governments. The Dubai
75 cmf : And you're confusing an individual company interests with national interest. Germany has a lot more to loose from trade restrictions than they can ho
76 Post contains links Raptor1090 : Well, you wouldn't get a very good idea on the financing based on the bond rates alone as all airlines issue them in various different currencies, wi
77 PanHAM : Which national interests ? Those of Dubai? Obviously you did not read the test. EK has generous rights into Germany, theya can fly as often as they w
78 cmf : You think they have generous rights. They think there is demand for additional flights. We should all be able to agree there are restrictions. What e
79 Post contains links and images lightsaber : Part of the issue is EK must grow fast or QR/EY will overtake them. While EK has a significant passenger and cargo volume advantage, its regional com
80 PanHAM : They can have additional flights. I said that many times LH is restricted in many markets, including their home market as the German governments resp
81 ElPistolero : Very hard to understand, actually. If its none of the government's business, then why is the government impeding EKs right to fly there? Move to FRA,
82 ElPistolero : Indeed, as is just about every international destination that LH serves. Why should they have to give up anything? Why should this be about taking fr
83 Post contains images cmf : I partially agree on the curfew. I think they could do with a few more flights up to 23:00 but doubt the rest of the curfew matters much. Even airpor
84 Post contains images lightsaber : That part I do not understand why the home market restricts LH as they do. There is no credit given to a nation self imposing a handicap on their bus
85 PanHAM : Under the current bi-lateral, EK has no rights to fly to Berlin. You confuse things here. We have the Chicago mconvention which regulates internaiton
86 ElPistolero : Right. Admittedly, badly phrased on my part. Doesn't change much though. Why is the government actively impeding the negotiations for a new bilateral
87 PanHAM : LH has a market share in Germany of about a third. When LH started back in 1955,m the market was divided up between it's neighbours who all had a hea
88 Post contains links ElPistolero : What you call 'rules' is simply a case of constraining supply. I suppose you could pass it off as a 'rule', but no matter how many ways you cut it, g
89 PanHAM : "Rules" are for instance to obey existing contracts. There is no constrainment of supply either, you still have not understood that EK has almost unl
90 ElPistolero : You are right. We are on different wave lengths. I always thought something was in the public interest if it was in the interest of ordinary citizens
91 rwy04LGA : Hmm, donuts or hot dogs...STOP, I'm getting hungry! How many commercial airports does Dubai have?? Same question for Germany? Seems to be an imbalanc
92 cmf : I think they have gone a bit far but I fully understand why airports are not allowed to operate at full capacity during nights. I agree on the freigh
93 cmf : Exempt they do not have access to all airports. That is a restriction. You can argue for that it is a reasonable restriction but to pretend it isn't
94 Post contains images lightsaber : I would rather see a noise quota myself. The current restrictions have indeed 'gone too far' at FRA. I would argue MUC and BER too. How does one full
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