raffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1651 posts, RR: 4 Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12057 times:
Really interesting that the BMI brand will continue to live on. I think a lot of people assumed that it would disappear after the buy out by IAG. Perhaps it does go to show that bmi does have a good reputation.
Byrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12018 times:
Does the sale include BMI's FFP Diamond Club or does that stay with BA?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
jamesontheroad From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 519 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11895 times:
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 7): Does the sale include BMI's FFP Diamond Club or does that stay with BA?
The integration of the Diamond Club is now under way. I doubt it could be spun out again. DC members will basically receive a like for like status match to the BA Executive Club, and 1:1 matching of DC miles to Avios.
anstar From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 4872 posts, RR: 6 Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11548 times:
I think for them to be viable long term they will need to refleet and rebrand. the problem with their current fleet is that it will only take someone like Flybe to decide they want in on that market and they will find it hard to compete against their more fuel efficient aircraft and economy of scale.
LX138 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 349 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11418 times:
Quoting anstar (Reply 10): I think for them to be viable long term they will need to refleet and rebrand. the problem with their current fleet is that it will only take someone like Flybe to decide they want in on that market and they will find it hard to compete against their more fuel efficient aircraft and economy of scale.
GSTBA From UK - England, joined Apr 2010, 404 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10943 times:
Quoting LX138 (Reply 9): It's great news. I still believe it will last 18 months though before collapse. Some how it would be nice to see the bmi name live on though.
I hope they survive a lot longer than that. I couple of things. A couple of ways that I think may help BD Regional survive is make make the following changes to there routes, fleet and bases.
Routes
1. Expand the current BD Regional partnership with SN. They could paint a handful of there ER4's into SN livery, have there crew wear SN uniform and onboard offer a SN product. With the aircraft being used to operate on the current routes that BD op independently from EDI, EMA, LBA to BRU as well as the routes to BRU from BRS and NCL that BD currently op on behalf of SN
2. Starts talks with VS and if VS are serious about bidding for the slots released by IAG for flights to ABZ and EDI from LHR. They could operate the flights on behalf of VS and be branded as VS express or Regional operated by BMI Regional. This could also lead to opening a VS route to MAN from LHR
I think the current BD Regional routes from Aberdeen to Groningen, Manchester and Norwich as well as the routes from Manchester to Edinburgh and Lyon will be closed. The future of there other routes will depend on a number of factorrs. The remaining routes and factors are:
ABZ to EBJ & NWI - The future of these routes will depend upon securing a contract with a major oil company to transport employees from ESJ to ABZ
EDI & GLA to CPH - These routes will continue to operate if they can continue to operate under the SK codeshare.
EDI to ZRH - Possibility of surviving if they can op under code share with LX.
EMA to FRA - Possibility of surviving if they can op under code share with LH.
Bases
BD Regional currently have crew based at ABZ, EDI, EMA, GLA, LBA and MAN. I can see BD cutting these bases back to just two, those being ABZ and EDI.
If the SN agreement does happen, then the crew for those flights would probably be all EDI based and aircraft and crews could be rotated at BRU.
Fleet
The regional fleet of 19 aircraft will probably drop to 15 with the 4 37 seater ER3's being removed from the fleet
rutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2038 posts, RR: 5 Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10553 times:
Quoting cometorbit (Reply 14): I'm booked on an LH flight FRA-MAN on July 15 (LH948).
But it is "operated by BMI" and is an A320.
Assuming this is a BMI Regional codeshare flight, should I be worrying?
Those services have nothing to do with bmiR.
Currently two of the 4 daily MAN-FRA rotations are operated with an A320 of BMI Mainline however these remain Lufthansa services and its bmi that codeshare - yes on their own plane.
These are LUFTHANSA flights period and WILL OPERATE and by July almost certainly utilise a Lufthansa A3x or B73- model
cometorbit From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 11 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10385 times:
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 15): Those services have nothing to do with bmiR.
Currently two of the 4 daily MAN-FRA rotations are operated with an A320 of BMI Mainline however these remain Lufthansa services and its bmi that codeshare - yes on their own plane.
These are LUFTHANSA flights period and WILL OPERATE and by July almost certainly utilise a Lufthansa A3x or B73- model
hotplane From UK - England, joined Jul 2006, 795 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9043 times:
Great to see the name live on. Perhaps they can start again as it were and return to how British Midland used to be by just serving the UK and local Europe.
ual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3355 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8606 times:
Quoting GSTBA (Reply 13): Starts talks with VS and if VS are serious about bidding for the slots released by IAG for flights to ABZ and EDI from LHR. They could operate the flights on behalf of VS and be branded as VS express or Regional operated by BMI Regional. This could also lead to opening a VS route to MAN from LHR
I like this idea, if VS has any sense he might make that call!
Good luck to all at BMI REgional, its great to see the name live on, I hope it flourishes.
jumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 490 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8288 times:
I am a bit bemused by this deal - especially in the context of the comments made by GSTBA on the future of the existing BMI regional routes.
BA have sold the company; its planes; and its liabilities to Sector Aviation for £8million. In return Sector have:
-acquired 18 less than efficient E135/145 jets;
-a route network which apart from the domestic trunk lines is very patchy;
-they don't appear to have any slots at LHR so if they want to continue the flights to LHR from ABZ, MAN etc it looks like they will have to bid for the slots being vacated by BA under its agreement with the EU competition authorities - so that wont be cheap.
-according to anna.aero the load factor on their flights is approx 62% and they carried only 414,000 pax last year, so not a very robust performance
-the BMI regional staff and the associated costs/liabilities.
This does not sound like much to work on without a radical reshaping and overhauling and the costs it entails.
So, $64m question, why did not Sector do what FlyBe and others are doing in EMA and other places and just start new flights to routes that would have been abandoned if BMI regional had folded.
I did wonder whether it was all down to the fact that Sector may not have an operating certificate so couldn't just start flights as they fancied. However I see that some of the people involved are connected to Loganair which presumably operated under its own certificate - so could they just not have put more backing into Loganair and bolstered its actvities.
I am only an interested observer not an aviation expert - so if any one can throw any light on why on earth anyone would pay to buy BMI regional I would be very grateful.
SK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 414 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7527 times:
Quoting nighthawk (Reply 4): The BBC article says the bmi brand will be retained, along with the www.flybmi.com website.
Ah, that explains the e-mail I had today from bmi saying it will soon not be possible to book any flights to/from LHR through bmi's webiste - LHR services will have to be booked at ba.com or through the call centre.
Quoting jamesontheroad (Reply 8): The integration of the Diamond Club is now under way. I doubt it could be spun out again. DC members will basically receive a like for like status match to the BA Executive Club, and 1:1 matching of DC miles to Avios.
Interesting that DC status miles won't be transferred to Executive Club, so anyone close to silver or gold with bmi loses out.
planejamie From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 572 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7052 times:
Quoting SK736 (Reply 20): Interesting that DC status miles won't be transferred to Executive Club, so anyone close to silver or gold with bmi loses out.
My dad is able to match his DC Gold card for a BA Exec Club gold one... I think you can transfer the DC miles into Avios? With BA Exec club I think a certain number of Avios earned in a year will boost you up a status, so I don't think anyone is loosing out here
GSTBA From UK - England, joined Apr 2010, 404 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6989 times:
Quoting jumpjets (Reply 19): they don't appear to have any slots at LHR so if they want to continue the flights to LHR from ABZ, MAN etc it looks like they will have to bid for the slots being vacated by BA under its agreement with the EU competition authorities - so that wont be cheap.
They would have to bid for them and I have a feeling they wouldn't be able to afford them without the backing of a carrier such as VS
Quoting jumpjets (Reply 19): according to anna.aero the load factor on their flights is approx 62% and they carried only 414,000 pax last year, so not a very robust performance
Correct that is why for now they should look at expanding the current BMI Regional deal with the SN and look into entering similar deals with LH, LX, SK & VS. BMI Regional could lease aircraft and crew to be used to feed there international destinations similar to what BE recently started doing for SN. Such agreements would see BMI Regional being payed a set regular amount no matter how many passengers they carry. Then add there own routes further down the line once the new BMI Regional is established.
I really hope that the new owners don't instead decide to go it alone and set up direct flights to Europe from Scotland and continue with there current routes. Duo was the last carrier that operated direct flights to Europe from EDI using a business model similar to BD regional and they failed. The same will happen to regional without drastic changes to there business
GCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1128 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6575 times:
My perception is that (excepting the flights it operated for BMI at LHR) BMI Regional is based around a series of niche markets targeted at specific customers and charging high prices (my company has never used BMI Regional for EDI-BRU because of the prices offered, we choose alternative itineraries instead).
If my perception is correct then the continuation and success depends on two things: (i) the target customer (Oil Company, Scottish Exec) continuing to have the demand for the route and being prepared to pay the price and (ii) no competition from more efficient aircraft.
Eastern Airways have made a success of a very similar strategy, and probably the new owners intend to as well. I thought BMI Regional had a natural home in Eastern or Loganair, but this seems to be a standalone acquisition.
I wonder how many operators this niche market (Scottish & Oil) can support.
SK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 414 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6402 times:
Quoting planejamie (Reply 21): My dad is able to match his DC Gold card for a BA Exec Club gold one... I think you can transfer the DC miles into Avios? With BA Exec club I think a certain number of Avios earned in a year will boost you up a status, so I don't think anyone is loosing out here
I think you misunderstood my post. DC members who are already silver or gold can have their tier matched in Executive Club, and Destination Miles will be transferrable to Avios. However, if DC members are close to reaching silver or gold, but are not there yet, then it's tough - status miles will not be transferred to Executive Club. So these people will indeed lose out.
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4169 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6618 times:
Quoting GSTBA (Reply 13):
I think the current BD Regional routes from Aberdeen to Groningen, Manchester and Norwich as well as the routes from Manchester to Edinburgh and Lyon will be closed
Why? ABZ-GRQ is an oil (or better natural gas) shuttle and unless they loose the contract, there is a guaranteed revenue (same for EBJ and NWI).
virgincrew From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 412 posts, RR: 2 Reply 28, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5466 times:
Quoting GSTBA (Reply 13): Starts talks with VS and if VS are serious about bidding for the slots released by IAG for flights to ABZ and EDI from LHR. They could operate the flights on behalf of VS and be branded as VS express or Regional operated by BMI Regional. This could also lead to opening a VS route to MAN from LHR
that would be fantastic for BMI Regional and for VS as a feeder airline for their London operations....
"The sale includes all bmi Regional's fixed assets and LONG TERM LIABILITIES, including owned and operating lease aircraft." (My emphasis.)
As some will recall when BA bought Dan Air under relatively similar circumstances the purchase price was only £1.00. But that purchase, like this one, also included BA assuming all of Dan Air's long term liabilities.
skipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 2426 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3866 times:
The bmi name in the public mind is toast so they will be going to market with a brand the market thinks is history. The non LHR routes are all over the place with no focus or hub, adhoc here, crew base there. On the current operation on that scale without LHR I cannot see a future. They operate an aircraft type that is no longer competitive on a sporadic route network on behalf of BMI which is disappearing and STAR of which they are not a member. This takeover is classic heart over ruling head. They will most likely be the next Duo as was said above, and I cannot see how the new owners can re-fleet, consolidate a disparate network, downsize, refocus AND absorb losses to survive. Indeed GLA-LBA and EDI-LBA have already been gifted to Loganair.
nighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 4993 posts, RR: 38 Reply 31, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3402 times:
Quoting GSTBA (Reply 22): They would have to bid for them and I have a feeling they wouldn't be able to afford them without the backing of a carrier such as VS
Slots at Heathrow are free - it would not be a case of bidding for them, but rather applying for them. I believe it is illegal in the EU to buy or sell airport slots, any time you see airlines trading slots it is done in a roundabout way to get around the legislation. As this is an official transaction, no fee will be demanded for the slots.
In a normal situation where slots are released, the allocation system favours new entrants to the market over existing carriers. I am not sure if this will apply in this case, but if so bmi regional would be favourites to get the slots. However to make a success of the routes they would need to be able to offer feed at the LHR end - so a partnership with Virgin would be required.
But such aircraft can be fine on thin routes on which they can charge relatively high fares (so where the demand is relatively price-inelastic) to counteract the high unit/seat costs.
Quoting jumpjets (Reply 19): according to anna.aero the load factor on their flights is approx 62%
Was that 62% for bmi regional? If so, it isn't surprising given the nature of its existence and that its average one-way fare is probably pretty high.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
nighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 4993 posts, RR: 38 Reply 33, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3054 times:
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 32): But such aircraft can be fine on thin routes on which they can charge relatively high fares (so where the demand is relatively price-inelastic) to counteract the high unit/seat costs.
which is exactly the kind of routes the airline operates. Many of the routes they operate are oil related, and as such the passengers are almost exclusively travelling for business purposes, as such they will pay a premium. Also a lot of their flights are operated on a contract basis, so revenue is guaranteed.
The 145 may be inefficient compared to other aircraft, but if used right, it can still be profitable.
Pe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 18883 posts, RR: 54 Reply 34, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3003 times:
Quoting nighthawk (Reply 33): which is exactly the kind of routes the airline operates. Many of the routes they operate are oil related, and as such the passengers are almost exclusively travelling for business purposes, as such they will pay a premium. Also a lot of their flights are operated on a contract basis, so revenue is guaranteed.
The 145 may be inefficient compared to other aircraft, but if used right, it can still be profitable.
Exactly.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
GCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1128 posts, RR: 1 Reply 36, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2751 times:
Quoting LH506 (Reply 35): Quick question, what will happen with the HAJ-LHR flight?
Will that become a BA flight or LH/4U or both???
This was never a BMI Regional flight, it was a BMI flight. The BMI website now answers your question:
"Flights on the route you are searching for have been switched to British Airways. You will automatically be linked to ba.com where you can continue to book BA flights on this route."
(The flights are now booked on ba.com but still have BD flight numbers)
virgincrew From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 412 posts, RR: 2 Reply 38, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2505 times:
Quoting nighthawk (Reply 31): Slots at Heathrow are free - it would not be a case of bidding for them, but rather applying for them. I believe it is illegal in the EU to buy or sell airport slots, any time you see airlines trading slots it is done in a roundabout way to get around the legislation. As this is an official transaction, no fee will be demanded for the slots.
I think the slots here we are discussing are the ones that have been released by IAG following the sale of mainline BMI, the EU made IAG release so many LHR slots to be used for the Scottish run.... Any airlines interested will have to bid for them.
Quoting CaptainDoony (Reply 37): So with BMR now sold what will happen to routes out of LHR that regional operated e.g
ABZ-LHR
MAN-LHR (some)
I don't believe these LHR slots were BMI Regional, my understanding is they were BMI mainline slots.
I think if VS get in quick here, it could be the answer they need to develop their domestic routes, without the cost of running it themselves.
I don't belive the BMI Brand is dead ! It still has a loyal customer following. If Sector Aviation Holdings Ltd (SAH) are quick in sorting out the route network, crew bases and aircraft fleet - they could make it work !
nighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 4993 posts, RR: 38 Reply 39, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2388 times:
Quoting virgincrew (Reply 38): I think the slots here we are discussing are the ones that have been released by IAG following the sale of mainline BMI, the EU made IAG release so many LHR slots to be used for the Scottish run.... Any airlines interested will have to bid for them.
I know exactly what slots we are talking about - re-read my reply.
Slots are not sold - they are free. In this case, BA is releasing the slots in line with the terms of the merger, and therefore any interested airline can apply for those slots. One or more interested airlines will then be awarded the slots. No fee will be paid by the selected airline.
skipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 2426 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2360 times:
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 32):
But such aircraft can be fine on thin routes on which they can charge relatively high fares (so where the demand is relatively price-inelastic) to counteract the high unit/seat costs.
Only one other airline in the UK does this, Eastern. Not sure what routes BMI Regional will be flying once BMI flying and STAR partner leases end.
Quoting nighthawk (Reply 33): The 145 may be inefficient compared to other aircraft, but if used right, it can still be profitable.
True as a stand alone statement, however these guys have NINETEEN of these aircraft they need to find a use for. Granted G-EMBI / J / N / P might be leased and off soon but that's still a core fleet of 15 aircraft that flybe retired in favour of the DHC8-Q402. The three abreast ERJ-135 / 145 does not compare well to the Dash, even less to the larger ERJ-175.
Quoting virgincrew (Reply 38):
I don't belive the BMI Brand is dead ! It still has a loyal customer following. If Sector Aviation Holdings Ltd (SAH) are quick in sorting out the route network, crew bases and aircraft fleet - they could make it work
Honestly? They're dead, won't last a year. You say "sorting out the route network" as if it were simple. They don't have a route network. BMI are about to vanish into BA, so all LHR flying ends.
ABZ-MAN is vulnerable now to flybe like GLA-MAN
ABZ-LHR ends with the BA sale
ABZ-NWI / GRQ / EBJ kind of niche but there's three routes from ABZ that might be OK.
GLA flying has contracted to a single CPH rotation as they dumped GLA-LBA to flybe. Hence GLA-CPH will go to SAS otherwise the aircraft spends most of the day parked.
EDI-BRU is now vulnerable for Brussels Airlines to step in
EDI-LBA has been axed
EDI-CPH is a candidate for SAS
EDI-ZRH is a candidate for Swiss
LBA-BRU survives as a standalone? Surely Brussels Airlines and flybe candidate?
What else is there under the BMI Regional banner? Feeding STAR members at ZRH and BRU when not a member of STAR? Is that profitable given the opportunity for former partners to move in?
What routes do we realsitically see these guys doing in 12 months?
skipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 2426 posts, RR: 0 Reply 43, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2272 times:
Quoting virgincrew (Reply 42): I can't see a company spending £8m on a product, if they hadn't done their research and didn't have a plan for the product !
They might have a plan, I bet they don't have the capital to see it through. This Ian Woodley, the guy who set up Business Air and sold it to Midland years ago. It was his baby, it's heart over head going back to this as it bears no relation to the business flying SF340s he sold.
If you were going into the business and decided to set up and airline with a clean sheet of paper, you would not come anything close to BMI Regional.
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6679 posts, RR: 17 Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2018 times:
Quoting nighthawk (Reply 31): I believe it is illegal in the EU to buy or sell airport slots, any time you see airlines trading slots it is done in a roundabout way to get around the legislation.
This was true until a few years back. However a report produced for the EU showed that the "no-sale" rule was resatricting the expansion of European commercial aviation. So the rule was changed and the sale of slots is now encouraged:
The LHR slot coordinator, Airport Coordination Ltd, now has a section on its web site (with restricted access) that effectively is a market place for buying and selling slots. It is called "slottrade":
Without this change in rules it would not have been possible for BA to buy six daily slot pairs, formerly operated by BD, from Lufthansa Group last autumn:
Eurohub From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 230 posts, RR: 0 Reply 46, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1834 times:
Didn't IAG negotiate a discount on the BD-package purchase price from LH in order to cover their exceptional costs (redundancy payments, early lease terminations etc.) in closing WW and Regional? If so, might LH be seeking a portion of the £8m paid for Regional as IAG will no longer have such costs in this regard?
Regards,
Eurohub
Forget A vs B - Give me E or BAe any day of the week!
jumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 490 posts, RR: 0 Reply 47, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1647 times:
Quoting Eurohub (Reply 46): If so, might LH be seeking a portion of the £8m paid for Regional as IAG will no longer have such costs in this regard?
There are no commercial or legal rules that deal with these issues - It will all depend on what agreement was reached between IAG and LH - ask for a copy of the purchase and sale agreement [the bible] and read the small print and that will answer your question.
signol From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2007, 2953 posts, RR: 7 Reply 48, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1494 times:
Quoting GSTBA (Reply 13): I think the current BD Regional routes from Aberdeen to Groningen, Manchester and Norwich
ABZ-NWI especially is a solid route, with BMI and Esatern currently operating 5 flights daily between them. And prices are consistently high on this route, so there is the market - mainly oil and offshore industry based. This route won't be axed any time soon.
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