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When Will Delta Be The Only 747-400 Operator?  
User currently offlineAlnicocunife From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 164 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 21730 times:

It appears the everyone is retiring their 747-400 for conversion to cargo or scrap. When will Delta retire their 16 aircraft.

The last of the passenger versions manufactured are coming on 10 years old, some of Delta's are 22+ years. It must be worth (economic) to keep flying them? What are the passenger perceptions of flying the "old" beasts   

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6486 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 21758 times:

Considerin all the interior upgrades DL is investing in them, they are here to stay well into the future.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinecmb320 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 413 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 21579 times:

I would say in 20 years when we start buying used ones from United. That seems to be the trend 

User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2088 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 21570 times:

Why would DL necessarily be the last passenger 744 operator? Because they do not have any specific plan to replace them? If fuel prices jump, the 744s would likely be parked with no replacement. BA is a lot more dependent on the 744 than DL and UA still uses more of them, although their demise is on the horizon.

User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17064 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 21517 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 3):
BA is a lot more dependent on the 744 than DL and UA still uses more of them

  

With a fleet of over 50 744s still flying, BA will be one of the last major carriers retiring the 747-400.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 21483 times:

Quoting Alnicocunife (Thread starter):
What are the passenger perceptions of flying the "old" beasts

As a passenger who was flying them regularly there for a while, I had no negative perceptions at all.


User currently offlinewarden145 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 512 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 21451 times:

Quoting Alnicocunife (Thread starter):
What are the passenger perceptions of flying the "old" beasts

I will (and have) go out of my way to fly on one.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 4):
With a fleet of over 50 744s still flying, BA will be one of the last major carriers retiring the 747-400.

  



ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
User currently offlinejr From United States of America, joined May 1999, 968 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 21363 times:

In 20 years, when they can get used 748I's for a bargain and 717s are still flying with a widget.

  



I've flown on 9V-SPK.
User currently onlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9607 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 21345 times:

The oldest 747-400s that are being scrapped have over 100,000 flight hours on them. Lufthansa has been retiring 747s with over 110,000 flight hours on them.

Delta’s 747s operating transpacific routes under NW typically had lower utilization than some of the higher utilization operators, so there is still some life left in the airplanes.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 4):

With a fleet of over 50 744s still flying, BA will be one of the last major carriers retiring the 747-400.

True, and they have some relatively new ones, however DL also has some relatively new 747-400s delivered 1999-2002.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 21337 times:

Quoting jr (Reply 7):
In 20 years, when they can get used 748I's for a bargain and 717s are still flying with a widget.

I have a feeling that's actually gonna be the case   

If anything, DL will retire their 744s before UA. Is UA doing any sort of cabin mod to theirs?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 21257 times:

Can we get a list of who still flies the 744 & how many?

 



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25154 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 21248 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 4):
Quoting AADC10 (Reply 3):
BA is a lot more dependent on the 744 than DL and UA still uses more of them


With a fleet of over 50 744s still flying, BA will be one of the last major carriers retiring the 747-400.

BA operated their original 747-100s for 28 years (all except 2 or 3 delivered when they were still BOAC). I remember a BA flight LHR-YMX (Montreal Mirabel) in August 1996 on one of their oldest 741s. I doubt any other passengers were aware that it was 26 years old.


User currently onlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9607 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 21191 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):


If anything, DL will retire their 744s before UA. Is UA doing any sort of cabin mod to theirs?

UA already modified them to flat business in 2007-2009.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3064 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 21094 times:

Quoting Alnicocunife (Thread starter):
What are the passenger perceptions of flying the "old" beasts

The last 747-400s delivered only a few years ago. The aren't that old.


User currently offlineN8911E From United States of America, joined May 2012, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 20970 times:

Quoting warden145 (Reply 6):
I will (and have) go out of my way to fly on one.

Amen! I woke up at 4:30AM TWICE before (and I am NOT a morning person) to catch that beast out of SFO, and it was so packed, I almost didn't get on. (6:00AM Departure)

Last I heard, they no longer REGULARLY fly the 744 from SFO-ORD, so I am glad I did it while I had the opportunity.


User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1618 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 20911 times:

The 747-400 still offers room and comfort rarely found on newer aircraft. DL spent a fortune to upgrade the interiors and they will be around for the forseeable future. Ultimately, aging aircraft maintenance and fuel costs will determine when they are retired. But they still fly FULL daily across the Pacific and occasionally across the Atlantic (to AMS and TLV) and are preferred by many passengers ( and crew) over the newer generation of aircraft. DL will eventually need a replacement but there is nothing out there right now that suits them--perhaps the 777-300LR if it ever comes to pass.

Watch what happens when the USAF determines it is time to replace the two 747-200 aircraft presently serving as presidential aircraft. Both of those airframes are over 30 yeas old now and you know that the US Government will never replace them with (a) a twin engine aircraft or (b) a non-US built aircraft. That pretty much narrows it down to the 748i.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3204 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 20838 times:

Quoting Alnicocunife (Thread starter):
When will Delta retire their 16 aircraft.

According to one of the flight ops updates published by the company back in February, the 747-400 will be in the DL fleet until 2018-2020.

The author of the update said he gets asked frequently if the 744 will be retired in the near future and he said the answer is simply "no", and that DL wouldn't be investing staggering amounts of money into cabin refurbs unless they wouldn't see a substantial ROI, which puts final retirement at the end of this decade.


User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20534 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 20786 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 15):
Watch what happens when the USAF determines it is time to replace the two 747-200 aircraft presently serving as presidential aircraft. Both of those airframes are over 30 yeas old now

A bit younger, more like 22 years old. They were delivered in 1990 while George H. W. Bush was President. First trip he took on one was to Helsinki, if my memory serves.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5935 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 20712 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 17):
A bit younger, more like 22 years old. They were delivered in 1990 while George H. W. Bush was President. First trip he took on one was to Helsinki, if my memory serves.

They were delivered in 1990 but they were built in 1986 and took their first flight in 1987.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently onlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 20661 times:

Both Presidential 744s are older than any other primary presidential transport before they were retired (or relegated to AF2/emergency use).


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25154 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 20596 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 13):
Quoting Alnicocunife (Thread starter):
What are the passenger perceptions of flying the "old" beasts

The last 747-400s delivered only a few years ago. The aren't that old.

But since the subject involves DL, they also operate the first 747-400 built, the one that made the first flight more than 24 years ago on April 29, 1988.


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Original livery:



N661US wasn't the first 744 delivered as Boeing kept it for testing for a year or so. N663US (below) was the first in service in February 1989, delivered in the earlier NW livery.


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User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 20529 times:

When the last DL 747-400 is flown to the desert, the pilots will most likely return home on some version of a Douglas twin jet!    Somebody had to say it...

User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7468 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 20491 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 4):
With a fleet of over 50 744s still flying, BA will be one of the last major carriers retiring the 747-400.

The youngest 744 in the BA fleet, G-BYGG, celebrated its thirteenth birthday a couple of weeks back. It had clocked up 51,812 hrs as at 31 December 2010. So on past form it is somewhere near half way through its likely life span with BA. So it could still be operating for the airline in 2025.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7563 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 20079 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 16):
According to one of the flight ops updates published by the company back in February, the 747-400 will be in the DL fleet until 2018-2020.

The author of the update said he gets asked frequently if the 744 will be retired in the near future and he said the answer is simply "no", and that DL wouldn't be investing staggering amounts of money into cabin refurbs unless they wouldn't see a substantial ROI, which puts final retirement at the end of this decade.

Correct. The business case for doing the mod work was based on at least another 5-7 years of service.

DL has stated that essentially the only way they can get a decent return on asset is to fly aircraft for 30 years of service and fly them until the end of their usable life. While they may have higher operating costs, and maintenance costs creep up in the later years, this is all offset by the reduced ownership costs as they age.

As another poster said, DL (and NW) has generally not heavily utilized their 744s. There has always been a lot of slack in the fleet. They are low cycle aircraft for their age. Plus, several have been parked for periods of time, both in the desert, in a rolling active storage. Since about 2008, they were parking 2-3 spares in DTW when they didn't need to fully utilize the fleet.


User currently offlineQFVHOQA From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 438 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 19949 times:

I think DL will be the last of the US carriers to fly the 744, but I highly doubt they will be the last in the world. IR still fly the 741 & 742, and just purchased some ex-QF 743's.

25 American 767 : I think you're right. United is talking about retiring them in favor of the A350 coming up, but Delta hasn't said anything yet about retiring theirs.
26 Post contains images brons2 : The really pertinent question is, will they be the only DC-9 operator at the same time that they're the only 744 operator? For that matter, what about
27 dumbell2424 : those aren't 744s. The VC-25s are highly modified 742s.
28 ikramerica : Meant to write 747s.
29 Coronado : You have to admit that watching how Delta manages its fleet is certainly not boring. And the 744's look as good in the new Delta climbing widget liver
30 DarkSnowyNight : They won't retire their first one by then.
31 NASCARAirforce : I believe Northwest took delivery of its last two 747-400s in 2002 or so. I thought that was part of their big order in 2000 when they ordered the 757
32 CompensateMe : NW did heavily utilize the 744; they were constantly airborne but flew such long flights that they accumulated few cycles. Through the magic world of
33 AirbusA6 : The big variable is the price of fuel, if it stays high or goes up then 744s will be very expensive to run, and mainline airlines will want to replace
34 PSU.DTW.SCE : While they did fly a lot of long flights, they also did have some pretty substantial ground times between turns. At all the beyond Asia flights they
35 EL-AL : El Al will fly it's B744s till their wings will fall off. No new wide body order in sight.
36 CompensateMe : Until the SARS epidemic, the 744 were flown on Interport segments regularly; it wasn't until after the cancellation of JFK-NRT did the 744 type have
37 rdh3e : Business and First are brand new, but Economy is lacking on IFE which is why UA is putting a wireless entertainment system in them. You just connect
38 Post contains links YULWinterSkies : http://www.airfleets.net/listing/listing.htm No separate file for the -400 specifically, but narrowing the search to aircraft built from 1988 to 2010?
39 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : Transpac wasthe only person that gave pretty good explanation why the T7 wouldn't be an absolute slam dunk replacemet for the 744; based on how DL us
40 Post contains links B747forever : This website is much better: http://www.planespotters.net/Product.../747/747-400/index.php?sort=status
41 airbazar : I woudn't be so sure. Unlike DL, BA is receiving 77W's and A380's both of which are viable replacements for the 744 and cheaper to operate. It's also
42 B747forever : BA has 12 A380s on order and 24 787s, and I believe that they have received all their 77W. The 787s will mainly replace the 767s, so BA will need muc
43 henpol747 : Isn't JAL one of the largest 744 operators ou there?? so, may be they will have the last flying 744's . . . . Who knows? Cheers, henpol747
44 B757forever : I believe that JAL has parked all their 747 aircraft since their BK.
45 Post contains links deltacto : Correct, JAL no longer has any 747's http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/Japan-Airlines
46 madog : In terms of age by years, I believe that CHina Airlines has the last pax 744 built and was delivered ten years ago. Dont forget another large 744 oper
47 MSPNWA : Even with the recent lowered utilization, DL's oldest ten 744s won't be flying for too many more years. However the other six are quite young for 747
48 ZK-NBT : The last PAX 744 was delivered to CI in 2005 so around 7 years ago. They have 3 others delivered in 2004/05. As disscussed in this thread they do mai
49 DocLightning : The last pax 744 operator will probably be a third-world carrier, much as was the case for the 747 and DC-10. Does Biman Bangladesh still have their D
50 MSPNWA : 5-6 years is what I see for them. I believe by then their hour meters will be reading somewhere in the range of 120-130,000. I just don't see them go
51 PHX787 : Since 2009 IIRC
52 airbazar : Just because they haven't it doesn't mean they won't place an order for additional A380's, 77W, or even A350's or 748i's. But I agree that they will
53 CompensateMe : Geeze. DL currently has needs for about 10-12 B744-sized aircraft, right? If DL were to order B773 or B748 today, how long would it take to have 10-1
54 B757forever : IIRC, DL is sitting on 16 options for 777s. If exercised as 777-300, that would be their 747 replacement.
55 FlyASAGuy2005 : 2030? Are you kidding? DL can have 77Ws on property next year if they wanted them. Because they don't have a replacement set in stone today means not
56 airbazar : I do. What is so hard to believe? We're talking about an airline that is still operating DC-9's. Ok, maybe not 2030's but definitely mid 2020's. Good
57 Post contains images N8911E : Holw long until we see ads that state: CHANGE IS: Planes Older than your mother[Edited 2012-05-12 08:40:21]
58 Post contains links Viscount724 : Not quite that long ago. Last JL 747 flight was March 1, 2011. http://www.eturbonews.com/21470/japa...tires-entire-fleet-boeing-747-400s Video showin
59 warden145 : As long as the planes are well-maintained and the airline can financially justify operating them, is that really a bad thing?
60 Post contains images TheGov : Well, here we go. This is going to be the replacement thread for "When will NW retire their DC-9's" thread. Argh!
61 gigneil : Tomorrow. Every other 747 on the planet will be retired tomorrow. NS
62 warden145 : Sometimes I think that there's a rather large group of people on this site who are cheering for that to happen. I never understood it...personally, t
63 Post contains links deltacto : Yes - according to PlaneSpotters.net: http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/Biman-Bangladesh-Airlines Also, Biman's own web site: http://biman-airline
64 Post contains images B747forever : I agree with you to the fullest. The 747-400 is the greatest aircraft ever made, and I am truly saddened that it is nearing its end.
65 1stfl94 : There will still be a few airlines flying the 747 for the next few years. There was a BA projection that they would still have 45 744s in 2016 and Vi
66 B747forever : I thought it was more around 30 frames. Until 2016/2017.
67 Post contains images gigneil : I don't think you have anything to worry about for a long while NS
68 Post contains images warden145 : I sincerely hope you're correct I'm still holding out hope that the 747-8i gains some momentum after LH gets some real-world numbers out there...
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