Quote: Chief executive Pierre Beaudoin told analysts he is “very enthusiastic about progress being made in the testing ... there are no red flags so far
So far, none of the rumour mills are sounding the doom and gloom trumpets so may they actually can pull this off. If they do, that would be a heck of a feat.
golfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 556 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12427 times:
Fantastic news. I can't wait to see it in the air. I was following the other thread on the speculation for AC 319/320 replacement and I really hope, the C-Series finds a place in the fleet.
Edit:
If BBD can pull it off, it will be a commendable achievement in the light of the 787 and 350 programs.
PHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 624 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12388 times:
Quoting golfradio (Reply 1): If BBD can pull it off, it will be a commendable achievement in the light of the 787 and 350 programs.
Agreed , I feel that we all add up a couple of years in our heads automatically these days with new programs for EIS. Congrats if this comes to reality, Boeing and Airbus ... take some notes
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26723 posts, RR: 83 Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12345 times:
The plane has been in development for 8 years (they originally launched it in 2004 and during the year's suspension of the program they still continued to work on it at a lower pace), which is about what it took Boeing to get the 787 out the door and what it appears to be taking Airbus with the A350.
Still, even if they're taking as long as the big boys to get it done, they are getting it done.
BBD was clever enough to give enough lead time to customers and use much of their current supply chain, Keeping the fuse metal also shortened the development curve..
Still,, it's not flying yet but I am absolutely sure we would be hearing the rumour mill stirring the pot if the wheels really were coming off of the cart.
I remain cautiously optimistic. If something does happen to slow things down,, any delay less than 6 months will still seem like a fantastic victory.
I doubt we'll see many more sales until the thing has some air time but if it's on spec, the orders will come.
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3857 posts, RR: 13 Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11811 times:
Quoting JoeCanuck (Thread starter): No news may be good news but sometimes real news can be good too.
Indeed, a week or so ago BBD issued a press release indicating f.f.. Dec 2012 "or early 2013", which I think is more likely. Last year the head of the program said they had basically burned up much of their contingency time.
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 5): I doubt we'll see many more sales until the thing has some air time but if it's on spec, the orders will come.
I agree with that, and in light of the 1-1.5 yr delay in the MRJ program, that may bias some operators towards BBD. Embraer's E-jet 2.0 won't be flying until 2016 at the earliest, so BBD had better not screw the pooch. They have a wonderful opportunity here.
The news on the P&WC GTF is also good: sfc better than predicted.
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 5): I highly doubt the CSeries will fly in 2012.
F9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4739 posts, RR: 30 Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11719 times:
For such confidence stated, I have a feeling it will indeed fly this year. I also suspect they have a completed airframe already, or narrowly complete. No pictures out there of it? If this plane does what it says it can, I have no doubt that the plane will be successful. I love BBDs product.
frame, it depends what you consider "narrowly". If you mean "most of the parts are fitted together", maybe yes, maybe no.
If on the other hand, you mean "most parts are in the same room as each other", that's probably right !
Once again, i highly doubt it will fly in 2012. It is worth mentioning that even a Q1 or Q2 2013 first flight would be very impressive !
Thenoflyzone
[Edited 2012-05-11 17:45:11]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
thenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1964 posts, RR: 12 Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11616 times:
another angle we havent considered.
MRJ recently announced a huge delay in their program. Maybe BBD staying quiet about their program for as long as possible is a way for them to steal those 50 orders of the MRJ by Trans States Airlines or any other potential MRJ buyer.
Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
MRJ recently announced a huge delay in their program. Maybe BBD staying quiet about their program for as long as possible is a way for them to steal those 50 orders of the MRJ by Trans States Airlines or any other potential MRJ buyer.
Size and weight wise... and price wise would you think that the CRJ series might be more competitive?
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10694 posts, RR: 100 Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 11371 times:
Quoting golfradio (Reply 4):
Imagine delivering it on time and at or above spec. I am sure we will see a sudden interest in the type. This is going to be BBD's tipping point.
It won't take being on time. There is still high risk of missed milestones. Now BBD has bought down a HUGE amount of risk with structural testing and Pratt with the engine testing. But there is still schedule risk. My point is that if the C-series is on or better than spec... It will find more customers.
This is good news. What impresses me is (form the OP's link):"Chief executive Pierre Beaudoin told analysts he is “very enthusiastic about progress being made in the testing ... there are no red flags so far ... it’s a highly complex program but a complete aircraft with all its systems in place will be ready by June.”
F9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4739 posts, RR: 30 Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 11281 times:
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14): rollout of a complete, systems installed plane...? Is that possible...?
Anything is possible. The silence until now has me thinking that BBD has been doing lots of work, and might just surprise us. For BBD to come out and say it will fly in 2012 is dangerous to state if the plane is still just on paper. To make such a statement has me thinking the program is further along in terms of being ready to test.
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 10): frame, it depends what you consider "narrowly". If you mean "most of the parts are fitted together", maybe yes, maybe no.
If on the other hand, you mean "most parts are in the same room as each other", that's probably right !
Once again, i highly doubt it will fly in 2012. It is worth mentioning that even a Q1 or Q2 2013 first flight would be very impressive !
Thenoflyzone
I could be wrong, as it would not be the first!
But my above posting is why I feel somewhat confident in my feeling. I am sure BBD has learned a ton from Boeing and Airbus. We as aviation enthusiasts were a bit unhappy with the delays of the 787 and A380. Not to mention the customers! Again, if BBD is going to throw out the time frame as they have, I would think and hope they are closer than we know. I would be saddened to see BBD take the punishment others have taken by giving dates, and not meeting it. I personally think any aircraft manufacturer should bite their lips, and announce first flights AFTER ground tests have been completed.
I am excited to see this bird fly. I think once it does, we will see some good sized orders. Lets face it, BBD makes a hell of a product. Some bash the CRJs because of comfort, but I personally felt absolutely comfortable on every ride.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10694 posts, RR: 100 Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11187 times:
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14): A rollout of a complete, systems installed plane...? Is that possible...?
I do not know the status of the airframe, so I am unable to speak (type) with much authority. If the parts are there, one can apply a tremendous amount of manpower to make it happen. Could it be done with 24/7 operations. Has bombardier implemented that level of staffing? I have not a clue.
I really do not want to see another 'Potemkin rollout.' I see it being possible with schedule risk. In other words, I'm not putting any money (or beer) on the line betting we'll have a system installed plane by end of June. I'm saying its possible.
But Bombardier has done quite a bit of testing ahead of time. The question is, are all the parts basically on hand? (By basically, we can have a a few hundred drawing numbers not yet delivered, but there had better be one well known effectivity matrix.) Do they have backup fasteners (in many grip lengths including washers, nuts, etc.), do they have surplus parts? What if something doesn't fit. What are the standby machine shop resources?
I would have to fly up to the assembly site to have true confidence and see the effectivity project plan to have any true confidence. Now anyone who knows that had better not post anything on a.net (breaks the non-disclosure rules).
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 15): I would be saddened to see BBD take the punishment others have taken by giving dates, and not meeting it.
I would be horrified if they stated a June rollout today and did any worse than early August. That would show a management as out of touch as Pratt's was for the PW6000.
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 15): I am excited to see this bird fly. I think once it does, we will see some good sized orders.
Once it flies and meets promise, I believe we'll see some larger orders (but not before). I'm hearing good things about the engines (but my sources are very quiet lately...) and rumblings from vendors on component weights. But then again, the 787 was botched on assembly... I hope Bombardier learned the interface control document lessons...
I really want to be 100% optimistic... If bombardier makes schedule, they will impress.
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4978 posts, RR: 14 Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10698 times:
Quoting golfradio (Reply 1): If BBD can pull it off, it will be a commendable achievement in the light of the 787 and 350 programs.
I think for both programs, there were so many issues before they even began static testing. This is an achievement for Bombardier given the time we live in these days.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13): June... For ground work... but that is impressive.
So when could we possibly expect to see a rollout?
ghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 765 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10382 times:
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 5): BBD was clever enough to give enough lead time to customers and use much of their current supply chain, Keeping the fuse metal also shortened the development curve..
According to BBD, "The CSeries aircraft contain 70% advanced materials comprising 46% composite materials and 24% aluminium-lithium which allows for a 15% lower seat-mile cost and a significant reduction in maintenance costs."
-that doesn't sound like they kept the fuselage metal.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
The plane has been in development for 8 years (they originally launched it in 2004 and during the year's suspension of the program they still continued to work on it at a lower pace), which is about what it took Boeing to get the 787 out the door and what it appears to be taking Airbus with the A350.
Officially launched in July of 2008, with about 4 years of on/off R&D behind the programmes belt. I see a first flight in Q4 2012 or Q1 2013 to be very attainable considering that the 787 made it into the skies almost 7 years after it was announced. A lot of the news put out by Boeing during the Dreamliner's production were almost always related to design changes and problems arising with production of the aircraft. Same with the A350. Seeing as to how quiet the CSeries programme has been and the fact that it's been "in the works" for almost eight years with substantial research done before fabrication, I'm very optimistic that it will fly in 2012.
If all goes well and the PW1500 hits the -14% mark, the CSeries should gain a substantial amount of orders by EIS. Carries more passengers over longer distances.. bigger cabin.. newer fuselage materials.. in comparison to the E-190.
Air Canada hasn't ordered the jet yet, and IMO, it would feet their current fleet very well. The E-175 carries 73 pax, the E-190 carries 93, and the next biggest jet (A319) carries 120-132 pax. This is a gap of about 30-42... one which the 110-125 seater CS100/ER can fit very well. The -ER will be able to fly most of the A319 routes, and will probably be lighter and more fuel efficient. So potentially the CS100/ER can fill in a gap and replace the A319 or E-190. The CS300 can come in to relieve some by-then old A320 until NEOs (assuming this happens) come in.
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3857 posts, RR: 13 Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10101 times:
Quoting ghifty (Reply 19): Air Canada hasn't ordered the jet yet, and IMO, it would feet their current fleet very well. The E-175 carries 73 pax, the E-190 carries 93, and the next biggest jet (A319) carries 120-132 pax. This is a gap of about 30-42... one which the 110-125 seater CS100/ER can fit very well. The -ER will be able to fly most of the A319 routes, and will probably be lighter and more fuel efficient. So potentially the CS100/ER can fill in a gap and replace the A319 or E-190. The CS300 can come in to relieve some by-then old A320 until NEOs (assuming this happens) come in.
AC are reconfiguring the Y cabin on the E-190s to 88 seats, so total pax will now be 97.
For AC to take the CSeries, at least right now, would be a bit of a stretch given their financial condition, and, the E-jets are fairly new. One thing I could see is moving the 175s to Jazz (or trading them in to BBD for 15 CRJ705s, which are actually pretty nice). If a lessor liKe ILFC agreed to be a remarketer for the 190s, then I think an AC CSeries order would be inevitable. A lot depends on the on-going labour discussions and potentially another CCAA.
golfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 556 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9754 times:
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 6): I highly doubt the CSeries will fly in 2012.
The Chief Executive of most companies are full of hot air ! Don't take their word for it.
The statement was made in a Shareholders' call. There is no way in hell, he would make a claim if he had information to the contrary. He will be criminally liable.
golfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 556 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9715 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16): But then again, the 787 was botched on assembly
But with most of the design and fabrication being in-house, we hopefully should not see the same issues. A big part of the 787 assembly issues were the sub-assemblies done outside of Everett.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10694 posts, RR: 100 Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9706 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18): So when could we possibly expect to see a rollout?
I suspect it will be end of June... the question is how much work is left before it could start testing.
I expect not everything to be done before initial testing is started. By that is ok. As long as the plane can be fueled and the engines run up, flight test milestones (on the ground), could be knocked out on schedule. The minimum equipment list will grow as the test program progresses. One can even fly with certain equipment missing (but only in VFR conditions, which is all that they will do initially).
Working 24/7, a prototype can be brought up to full condition and flown.
Quoting golfradio (Reply 22): The statement was made in a Shareholders' call. There is no way in hell, he would make a claim if he had information to the contrary. He will be criminally liable.
But informed is he? Are the subordinates playing 'range chicken' hoping someone else delays the program in a way to mask their tardiness?
Lightsaber
Life is short, Live it!
25 clydenairways: Nearly every other airliner produced had regular photos showing progress of the prototype taking shape. I find it very odd that there are no photos of
26 laca773: Can the CS100ER operate transcons (or midcons) like the E90 and A319 do?
27 lightsaber: There are enough outside of Mirabel (wings, CINPAC work, etc.) No one builds their own plane structure anymore. The sub-systems were always outsource
28 connies4ever: Yes,as can the CS300ER, although it probably would be weight-listed. Yes, I would expect that range will grow somewhat with more experience. What I f
29 lightsaber: More detail: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ries-flight-test-programme-366583/ With LZ also buying the C-series, I wonder what LH knows... Ok
30 BD500: Flightblogger published a picture of the cockpit in March http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...hoto-of-note-bombardiers-firs.html Bombardier also r
31 lightsaber: That video was interesting. Thank you. But again, pretty much all 'unstuffed' aircraft parts. If its Bombardier's culture not to show much... that is
32 Flighty: BBD is a smaller organization than Boeing or Airbus. In my view, that can be a huge plus. Situational awareness is so much better.
33 JoeCanuck: I would love to get daily updates from BBD, but what I find more interesting than the general silence, is the specific silence from the rumour mill. B
34 lightsaber: I'm hearing nothing negative of substance. *Nothing!* That is unreal. Oh, I hear this is a scramble to ship to BBD on time, but what I'm not hearing
35 davs5032: I too have been very surprised by the lack of "evidence" in the form of pictures/video/general updates coming out of Montreal, but it's obviously a c
36 golfradio: Unlike Boeing, BBD has previous experience with the "Blue" model for supply chain architecture. They have learnt their lessons from the Global 5000 pr
37 SSTeve: I wish I had confidence in corporation's management to "learn" anything, because management will turn over, and they'll make the same damn mistakes.
38 golfradio: I agree and that's the difference between the two programs that I want to highlight. Unlike the over 400 suppliers for the 787 program, the CSeries p
39 JoeCanuck: I don't know if they are really keeping things quiet or there's simply nothing to report. They haven't been shy about answering questions or showing
40 LAXDESI: FWIW, I expect the CS300ER to burn about 180 gallons less fuel(about $600) than B737-7(MAX) on a 500 nm trip. Assuming 6 less Y seats on CS300--relati
41 BDL757: With Delta, United, and American ordering new 737 family and A320 family aircraft, does anyone see them also ordering some CS100 or CS300 to fill the
42 tdscanuck: Are there *any* OEM's building their own fastners? Other than one-offs like engine mount bolts, I don't think any of them build standards. That's jus
43 ANM604: Correct. One thing people tend to forget is that BBD has been making trains, and lots of them, very successfully for many years now. While they are n
44 fergyvr: At the European Aviation Convention and Exhibition in Geneva yesterday, Qatar announced delays in negotiation and put their talks on hold on the C-Ser
45 Stitch: More likely it is the one model AAB hasn't complained about and he didn't want Bombardier to feel left out.
46 golfradio: Why negotiate this close to scheduled first flight? If the schedule slips he can just walk away. If it's on time, he probably reckons he can still sq
47 LAXDESI: As per wiki, CS300 is about $11 million cheaper at list than B737-7(Max). It should have a good long term future if it comes in at spec. Does anyone
48 lightsaber: Oh, Al Baker complained Pratt wouldn't guarantee engine maintenance as far as they were mouthing off in public PR. The fact that Al Baker didn't rake
49 baje427: A bit off topic but will BBD be incorporating any of the advances of the CSeries into their other programs such as the CRJ or Q400 line?
50 JoeCanuck: It would seem that similar Al-Li alloys as used on the CSeries could be used on the Q's and CRJ's. They should be able to shave a bit of weight off o
51 lightsaber: Too high of thrust, from what I've read, for the Q400s. Its simply not worth developing a new turboprop core at the level of a modern narrobody core.
52 davs5032: Possibly, but it seems like Qatar's been hinting at a possible order, then delayed it several times now, over a long period of time..for the past cou
53 lightsaber: Al Baker is demanding not only a good price, but flexible delivery and punitive contracts if the C-series is short on any guarantee. Basically, he wa
54 JoeCanuck: They basically have a resource/tech sharing agreement. The C919 is supposed to start at over 165 seats, (I believe in two class), leaving room for a
55 F9animal: I don't know about you guys..... But I am excited to see this baby fly. If BBD is going to meet the goal, that means we might just see a complete prod
56 davs5032: Same here, looking forward to it. I'm curious how much trouble/delay BBD potentially saved themselves from by going to the mainly-aluminum frame as o
57 r2rho: BBD's silence can be a good (no major hiccups) or bad (something to hide) thing, but it is certainly a very different approach to the A350, where Air
58 clydenairways: Yes. Even in the days before the internet, you used to get photographs in magazines on a regular basis when a new prototype was being assembled. I ca
59 columba: That is because they are follin´us, they don´t work on a small jet but instead it will be the Sonic Cruiser 2.0 that they will roll out end of the
60 lightsaber: I heard the little green guys from Roswell developed a taste for Canadian Whiskey and Bacon and were working in Montreal helping. Lightsaber
61 aircellist: Well... Bombardier also hid the preparation towards their new bizjets Learjet 70 and 75... Test planes are already flying, and the planes have just be
62 JoeCanuck: Bombardier has shown off the cockpit of its first plane, displayed fuse barrels, shown the CIASTA to whomever wants to look at it. It seems to me tha
63 mad99: what they have shown is the bird strike cockpit not the first ac cockpit 6 months to build, join, install systems etc etc ....basically build the com
65 aircellist: You're right, I should have been more careful in my writing. I did not intend to say that Bombardier had hidden everything about the CSeries. I inten
66 queb: Hydraulic system tests start on aircraft 0 http://www.bombardier.com/wps/portal...edia-centre?docID=0901260d8020c129
67 JoeCanuck: That's the problem with a lack of info...stuff may not be hiding but it's not exactly on the front pages either. My hope is that the program is just
68 r2rho: Great! Finally something to see! However now I have more doubts about a 2012 FF with aircraft 0 fully functional in may. Early 2013 is more realistic
69 BE77: Since it's in the Montreal area, I have to think it's really poutine and Montreal Deli Smoked Meat. Oh...and have you ever tried Sortilege? Actually,
70 F9animal: This is awesome! It proves that the program is much further along than I thought. I also respect how BBD has been keeping the program under tight lip
71 planemaker: Republic is slated to start receiving their CSeries in 2015. Because of scope they can't use them with mainline carriers so Bedford is trying to fly a
72 PlanesNTrains: Well, that will start an A.net firestorm. I think his best bet at this stage is probably hoping that an opportunity to cancel the order comes to frui
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Has bombardier implemented that level of staffing? I have not a clue. 
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I think for both programs, there were so many issues before they even began static testing. This is an achievement for Bombardier given the time we live in these days. 
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