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Merced And Visalia CA Could Lose EAS Service  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6097 times:

The DOT somehow realized that’s its authorized funding for Great Lakes EAS service at both Merced and Visalia was outside federal statutes.

The department is barred from subsiding air service at communities in excess of $200 per passengers if they are located within 210 highway miles of other medium or large airports.
It’s since been noted that Merced is 107 miles from SJC, and Visalia is 168 miles from Burbank.

The per passenger subsidy the department had been offering for each airports route was approximately $345 as of late 2011.  Wow!

Rather than immediately terminate service eligibility for either community, the DOT proposes to solicit alternative proposals from air carriers that conform to the EAS guidelines.

It’s also noted that the authorized period for the existing Great Lakes service to LAX was to end in October 2012 anyhow.


OST-1998-3521
and
OST-2004-19916


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineILUV767 From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3141 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5898 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Rather than immediately terminate service eligibility for either community, the DOT proposes to solicit alternative proposals from air carriers that conform to the EAS guidelines.

What types of proposals?


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5883 times:

What a useless program. Except in Alaska, the EAS program is wasting money and fuel on empty planes. It needs to go or at least get replaced by an Essential Bus Service (EBS) program.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineILUV767 From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3141 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5785 times:

Most people that criticize the program have little understanding of the program, its benefits and actual costs.

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5747 times:

Quoting ILUV767 (Reply 3):
Most people that criticize the program have little understanding of the program, its benefits and actual costs.

What benefits? These flights go out empty most of the time. Replacing EAS with motorcoaches would save lots of money and would likely cost less for the passenger.

[Edited 2012-05-11 15:21:39]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5693 times:

So, is ZK out of MCE now? Why isn't MER used as the commerical airport for the Merced and Atwater, CA area?

User currently offlinefatflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5844 posts, RR: 28
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5645 times:

Interesting since Great Lakes just added a non-stop flight on LAX-MCE.

As of June 4 LAX-MCE will have 1X daily nonstop and 2X daily LAX-VIS-MCE.

That also does not include the MCE-LAS leg.

Since Great Lakes switched the flights from ONT to LAX both cities claim to have seen large jumps in passenger counts.

Merced says it finished 2011 up 54% over 2010 and also says 1Q12 was up 61% over 1Q11.
http://www.centralvalleybusinesstimes.com/stories/001/?ID=20980
Visalia sources tell me it has seen a doubling in traffic since the move.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
So, is ZK out of MCE now? Why isn't MER used as the commerical airport for the Merced and Atwater, CA area?

MCE has long been the passenger airport, going back to the United jet days in the 60s and 70s. Its also closer to the city of Merced compared to MER, you don't necessarily need that long ex-Air Force runway at MER for turboprops.

MCE is run by the city, MER basically run by the county.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5587 times:

Quoting ILUV767 (Reply 3):
its benefits

Free money for small airlines.

Quoting ILUV767 (Reply 3):
actual costs.

Too much.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):
What a useless program.

  

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):
Except in Alaska,

   I don't want to pay for anyone to live in the boonies.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3639 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5551 times:

EAS is very important to small communities many of whom get us our fresh produce and produce quality goods we all need. It's services like this that separate us from a third world county and keep up a strong and independent. The EAS haters just can't see the big picture of why it's important but it is to our country and it's citizens. Many of these same people probably don't realize these two airports service the most important agricultural area in the country we all get food from the central Valley they need air service distances are far and we want these companies to be competitive and people to have access in emergencies we need people to live in the "boonies" these subsidies are chicken feed but very important. Nothing like a good eas opinion session   its our a. Net version of the u. Word debate

User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1632 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5537 times:

EAS doesn't need to go away, it needs a right sizing. If a B1900 can't be filled up, bring in a 208 or 402 to run the route. Much cheaper to operate, fewer seats to fill and a chance to eventually go to a regular operation with a smaller airplane.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5534 times:

Quoting ILUV767 (Reply 1):
What types of proposals?

One with a subsidy amount compliant with what the DOT can offer.

Quoting fatflyer (Reply 6):
Merced says it finished 2011 up 54% over 2010 and also says 1Q12 was up 61% over 1Q11.
Visalia sources tell me it has seen a doubling in traffic since the move.

Yes total boardings are up, however when its only under 10 folks at each airport daily to begin with, we are still talking about a small market.


Ultimately someone will need to bid the flying at a lower per passenger cost as uncle sam cannot continue pitching out and average of $345 per enplanment on the flights.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5482 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 8):

EAS is very important to small communities many of whom get us our fresh produce and produce quality goods we all need.

If it's that important then they can pay for it themselves. The whole argument comes down to "we really, really want air service, but we really, really don't want to pay for it."

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 8):
Many of these same people probably don't realize these two airports service the most important agricultural area in the country we all get food from the central Valley they need air service distances are far and we want these companies to be competitive and people to have access in emergencies we need people to live in the "boonies" these subsidies are chicken feed but very important.

If it is so incredibly important then the people who desperately need to travel to these communities will have no problems paying sustainable fares for the route. God forbid their increase in travel costs causes a nickel spike in avocado prices.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1632 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5446 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
If it's that important then they can pay for it themselves. The whole argument comes down to "we really, really want air service, but we really, really don't want to pay for it."

Poor argument. I don't use the 405 in LA, so why should I pay for it? I don't use Amtrack in the NE Corridor, why should I pay for that?

Long and short, EAS needs right sized, not eliminated.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently onlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2000 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5428 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 8):
EAS is very important to small communities many of whom get us our fresh produce and produce quality goods we all need. It's services like this that separate us from a third world count

Are you suggesting that Visalia and Merced recieve their produce and needed quality goods through cargo on Great Lakes?

Or that they'll be akin to third world countries if the rest of us stop funding this service for them?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
I don't want to pay for anyone to live in the boonies

Seconded.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2264 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5418 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 12):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):If it's that important then they can pay for it themselves. The whole argument comes down to "we really, really want air service, but we really, really don't want to pay for it."

Poor argument. I don't use the 405 in LA, so why should I pay for it? I don't use Amtrack in the NE Corridor, why should I pay for that?

I agree 100%.

Imagine the uproar if someone from Visalia said "my constituents will never use the 2nd Avenue Subway extension in New York City, so only people in New York City should pay for it", or "my constituents rarely use I-405, so only people in Los Angeles County should pay to widen it".

I feel it does not make sense to operate a 50 seat CRJ on an EAS route if only 5 people / day fly the route, but I also feel that as long as people in rural areas' tax dollars support mass transit projects in big cities, tax dollars from people in big cities should be used to support EAS in rural areas, if the flights are operated with the most cost efficient equipment for the EAS route.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5402 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 12):
I don't use Amtrack in the NE Corridor, why should I pay for that?

You shouldn't.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 12):
I don't use the 405 in LA, so why should I pay for it?

You shouldn't. Frankly I'm in favor of more toll roads, as long as gas taxes are reduced proportionately. Build a road, pay it off via tolls, and then make it free or reduce tolls for maintenance. But even ignoring that, you do pay gas taxes which pay for all roads, and the more you drive the more you pay in gas taxes. It's about as fair a system as possible, except for the fact that car, and especially diesel car, owners pay more than their fair share considering that trucks do the most damage by far.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 13):
Or that they'll be akin to third world countries if the rest of us stop funding this service for them?

Don't underestimate the effect a lemon shortage could have on the American economy. Government research into alternative flavoring, tax credits for drinking iced tea instead of lemonade, etc.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5401 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 14):
Imagine the uproar if someone from Visalia said "my constituents will never use the 2nd Avenue Subway extension in New York City, so only people in New York City should pay for it", or "my constituents rarely use I-405, so only people in Los Angeles County should pay to widen it".

The fact that they don't say that is pure idiocy.

Granted, roads have to be federally funded at some level, because they are fundamentally a defense expenditure.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1572 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5401 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
I don't want to pay for anyone to live in the boonies.

Too bad you don't! Most people do not realize that almost all of the EAS funding comes from airport and fuel taxes, from a GA level!

Quoting ILUV767 (Reply 3):
Most people that criticize the program have little understanding of the program, its benefits and actual costs.

Precisely!

Do I think their are a lot of markets where EAS is a waste, of course! Yet at the same time, their are markets that actually benefit from this program! The government spends money on lots of stuff I do not use, does that make it worthless and a waste of money? Just because you think it's a waste, does not mean it really is and if you still think it's a waste, go run for congress and abolish it yourself!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5844 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5372 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Yes total boardings are up, however when its only under 10 folks at each airport daily to begin with, we are still talking about a small market.

Of course, but the markets were larger about a decade or so ago but unfortunately actions like flights to ONT instead of LAX and shifting operators (Scenic, Great Lakes, etc) have probably dampened the development of the markets.

Pre-9/11 Skywest operated VIS-LAX nonstop and subsidy-free. But after 9/11 Skywest shifted to a VIS-FAT-LAX routing with 2X daily flights both midafternoon (I believe they departed VIS at 1PM and 3PM). That shift probably started a lot of the decline too.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5138 times:

I would totally support a Essential Bus Service concept.

That would make much more sense imo. Especially in a place like CA where these communities are not that isolated at all.

Matter of fact, I don't quite understand the need for a SF or LA area link, but these communities can instead be simply connect by bus to Fresno as they are both within 50 miles of the larger community that has its own airport.

Ultimately, economics must prevail imo. Its illogical to keep alive many of these routes at great expense when there is neither the business case for them, nor is there a true persuasive argument that these cities are isolated from the world.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5116 times:

MCE is about 60 miles from FAT and VIS is about 50 miles from FAT. Those both seem to be well within the acceptable range of an airport with a reasonable amount of self supporting commercial service.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5053 times:

Actually both Merced and Visalia even fall within what Fresno considers its catchment area which covers 6-counties and over 2-million people.

Don't think it would be the end of the world for the good citizens of either city to access air transportation via Fresno.

I'm sure Fresno would also appreciate every additional enplanement it can get, which helps make its own economic case ever more compelling.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5033 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 8):
EAS is very important to small communities many of whom get us our fresh produce and produce quality goods we all need. It's services like this that separate us from a third world county and keep up a strong and independent.
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 13):
Are you suggesting that Visalia and Merced recieve their produce and needed quality goods through cargo on Great Lakes?

Or that they'll be akin to third world countries if the rest of us stop funding this service for them?

Wait a minute. Both Merced and Visalia are served both by a major rail line, the BNSF line and a major highway, California Route 99. They also both get AmTrac service. So why do they need EAS puddle jumper service?


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6733 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5018 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 8):
EAS is very important to small communities many of whom get us our fresh produce and produce quality goods we all need.

None of that produce gets flown by EAS and none of the people who pick that produce can afford to fly on these EAS flights. So tell me again, why is EAS important? If EAS disappeared tomorrow, no one in MCE or VIS would even notice.

EAS in the lower 48 is purely about ego and making small towns feel important. It has nothing to do with economics as EAS service has virtually zero economic benefit. Things like the 405 freeway and the 2nd Ave subway have real economic value. If those went away, it would cause major economic damage. The same is not true of EAS.


User currently offlineILUV767 From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3141 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4967 times:

Airports are used to stimulate the local economy. Having commercial air service can bring in business to your community and provide a link to the rest of the globe. In many cases rail and bus options are not feasible. If EAS disappears, so does affordable air service to your community sending travelers to other destinations. We're talking about a drop in the bucket as far as taxes are concerned (most EAS funding is provided by foreign airlines arrival taxes). The loss to the community would be devastating.

Some of the benefits of EAS:
- Vital link to the community to allow for business and commerce
- Provides jobs not just limited to airline employees
- Maintains the airport to a higher standard thus allowing it to be used as a diversion airport for larger aircraft
- Attracts non-airline flights to the airport since it is maintained to a higher standard
- Economic benefits to the communities and the surrounding areas. Not all EAS flights are for people that live in the small town, but rather some distance form the town
- Tax revenue for the city, county, state and federal gov.

Without the airport, the town looses out. If the town looses, jobs disappear and the economy suffers. If people can not get to your community, how can they engage in business? We're not just talking about scheduled air service. If the airline goes away, it is the equivalent of your town being bypassed (like how cities were bypassed during the interstate highway construction...see how well those towns faired).

One reason that many of these small towns still receive scheduled air service is a result of deregulation. When the airlines were deregulated in the 1970s, in an effort to maintain air service to these towns, the federal government passed a law as part of the EAS program which guarantees subsides for any city that had scheduled service on the date of deregulation. Towns like Merced, CA; Kingman, AZ and Great Bend, KS fall under that clause.

Merced and Visalia might be poor examples but if you cut EAS, you would have zero air service between Denver and Wichita. There is a lot of the nation that lies between those two cities and it needs to be connected. DEN and ICT are just examples. The point is that not everyone lives in a large city, and they should not be forced to. We need rural america. We need it for our nation to be strong and prosperous. We need a link to those communities so they can be just as connected as the rest of the country.


25 1337Delta764 : Affordable? Fares on EAS routes are ridiculously overpriced that virtually nobody would even bother. Many people in these EAS communities are probabl
26 BMI727 : If the link were that vital it would be self sustaining. If any of this were nearly as important as EAS supporters make it out to be people would be
27 ILUV767 : That depends on your definition of affordable and overpriced. I bet everyone in Hays, KS knows that they have an airport and service from Great Lakes
28 ILUV767 : People are paying for it but you still lack the volume to maintain service without some subsidy. The subsidy guarantees the service will exist so tha
29 DiamondFlyer : Exactly, which is why I keep saying a right sizing is in order. If you only have 6 people a flight, put a Caravan or Cessna 402 operator on the route
30 BMI727 : ...not full price. If it were that important they would pay how much it actually costs. In that case those municipalities had better find a way to ge
31 ILUV767 : Depends what full price is. As I mentioned earlier, one of the biggest side benefits of the program is that the airports can be used as an alternate
32 JayDub : EAS serves a purpose. There are communities that truly need the subsidies. That said, however, it should not be used to support communities like Visal
33 BMI727 : ...which are not always cheap. Electronic flight bag will probably take care of that. And if that is the real reason for these programs, then stop wa
34 Tan Flyr : Well, here we go again..My 2 Cents...While I live less than 2nm from the VIS threshold and enjoy seeing and hearing the Great lakes flights they are
35 cbphoto : And people wonder why the US lags so far behind the rest of the "modern" world in public transportation, because of stupid comments like this! What B
36 FlyPNS1 : I bet you most people have no idea. I have friends who live in Staunton, VA which has EAS service (SHD is the airport code). Many of them were shocke
37 BMI727 : If it could be done profitably someone would have done it. The railroads died for a reason. Are airlines just scamming me with those taxes they tack
38 cbphoto : Well it's simple really, if you do not want to support EAS service, then simply stop flying and that will solve your dilemma! You attitude is that "i
39 BMI727 : Sure. People who ride the buses can pay a fare that covers the costs. If it is so important then they will have no problems ponying up the unsubsidiz
40 DesertAir : Back in the day there were many small airlines that did milk-runs through many small towns in rural america. While living in Central America I took th
41 Skywatcher : I read through this whole string and only one poster mentionned the trillion dollar annual Federal government debt. The fact is that EAS (and many oth
42 DiamondFlyer : It's not nearly as wasteful as stuff like the bridge to nowhere. I'd agree cuts need to be made, but there are places that should get them long, long
43 TIA : Seeing as New Yorkers pay more in federal taxes than they receive, you are in fact not paying for them. It is just the opposite actually. They're pay
44 DiamondFlyer : So what, the whole system, as a unit, is a massive money pit. Fact of the matter is Amtrak costs way, way, way more money than EAS does. Yet people a
45 BMI727 : I am. Gut all the parts that don't make money and sell it to the highest bidder.
46 LAXintl : Dug up boarding totals for Visalia and Merced for an idea of how small of a market we are talking about. Merced 2011 - 5052 = 13.8/day 2010 - 4023 200
47 Tan Flyr : Well Put...Thanks! I think those numbers help make the case..a waste particularly when Fresno is within an hour of either location. And rega And ther
48 FATFlyer : To be fair in the comparison I think it should be noted those 4 years of boardings consisted of service to ONT. ONT is not exactly a big hub airport
49 LAXintl : DOT granted interested carriers 2 additional weeks to submit their proposals. Apparently Great Lakes requested additional time.
50 PPVRA : When a factory is set up out in the boonies it of course means it isn't set up right outside a certain city, which means there is no additional econom
51 milesrich : it is less than 40 miles from Visalia to the Fresno Air Terminal, and it is less than 40 miles from Merced to Modesto Muni Airport. Going back before
52 Beardown91737 : ONT-MCE,ONT-IGM and ONT-PRC were $69. I think it was a total of $89 or 99 to Farmington, NM, which was a tag from IGM. More likely the factories are
53 LAXintl : I was just reading an analysis that basically stated they local communities(or states) need to step up to the plate and either split the cost for such
54 woodsboy : I fully realize the need many communities have for EAS, I think its a good program that has gone a bit waywire. It is an absolute LAUGH that places li
55 bobloblaw : EAS needs to be changed and unreliable airlines like ZK, need to be replaced with cheaper 9 seaters flown by Cape Air or Seaport, who provide good rel
56 cbphoto : Good Luck finding enough 9 seaters for Cape Air to pick up the nations EAS service! Everyone thinks their is a quick fix for EAS, but it is much more
57 Post contains images lightsaber : For some destinations, I agree. not all. I'm more in favor of 'right sizing.' Now that is getting out of hand. Time for smaller planes. The costs are
58 Post contains images Mir : Which is within easy driving distance of numerous other airports that can already support service. Visalia is an hour or less from Fresno. Merced is
59 Post contains images QXatFAT : Not only are they already serviced by Amtrak, that is also something that is subsidized. I believe Rep Jeff Denham who represents Merced & Madera
60 LAXintl : I see that DOT received new proposals from both Great Lakes and SeaPort for service at Merced and Visalia. Great Lakes offers to operate 2 daily same
61 LAXintl : The DOT forwarded the two proposals of Great Lakes and SeaPort for community comment. Its interesting to note, the SeaPort proposed linear schedule th
62 Post contains images point2point : I would think that under most circumstances, that community participation in these subsidized routes would be a given. It is probably too much for mo
63 AADC10 : Airlines can bid for EAS but the subsidy needs to be less than $200 per passenger. EAS was part of the deal to allow deregulation. It was feared, cor
64 Tan Flyr : Agreed..The city of Visalia does advertise on Comcast about free parking, no bag fee on the local segment, etc. The funny thing is you can tell the "
65 Post contains links AADC10 : It depends upon whom the other bidders were, if any. LAWA is struggling to get service to ONT while LAX and SFO do not have enough gates so I am sure
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