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Indian Aviation Thread: Part ९७ (97)  
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 16050 times:

Well, Part 96 has hit 200 posts, so it's time for a new thread!

http://www.business-standard.com/ind...ts-blink-say-ready-to-talk/474161/

Air India contingency plan is clarified:

Quote:
Meanwhile, the airline plans to wet-lease four aircraft (which come with pilots and crew) and cut the number of flights to Europe and the US from 32 to 14 a day. “From Monday morning, we will operate flights according to the new contingency plan. We have sent a request to the airports in Europe and the US, where we operate, to allot us new slots and their replies are expected by Saturday afternoon,” said Brara. He said the domestic operations were hassle-free.

The wet-leased craft would be used to operate five more flights. “A final plan will be ready by tomorrow, when we get the clearance for slots from the airports and from the leasing companies,” he added.

Due to the agitation, AI has lost Rs 48 crore in revenue and has had to spend Rs 20 crore more in providing accommodation and other facilities to stranded passengers.

In addition to the wet-lease aircraft, AI is planning to operate as many flights as possible using management pilots and a small amount of ICPA pilots who are certified on the 777/747. In addition, AI is asking some pilots who took early retirement to return for a few days until this situation is sorted out. That might mean some 747s going to unusual destinations - a nice opportunity for spotters to see the beautiful bird.

[Edited 2012-05-11 15:19:01]


Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
209 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineanshuk From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2009, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 15991 times:

From the previous thread:


That's what I was saying. Don't let them contact you with alternatives. YOU tell THEM then alternative you want to get booked on, get it endorsed over, and then go to the new carrier and finish the process. It takes 15-20 minutes (plus hold times), but then you're done.


--> I didn't know you could do that! Well, you learn something new on a.net every day!   but the issue I faced was that the person on the phone claimed that they weren't part of the rebooking/refund department and there was no way I could be transferred to them!


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 15977 times:

Quoting anshuk (Reply 1):
I didn't know you could do that! Well, you learn something new on a.net every day! but the issue I faced was that the person on the phone claimed that they weren't part of the rebooking/refund department and there was no way I could be transferred to them!

There is no such thing as a rebooking department. Air Carriers have interline agreements with each other, which do lots of functions, like allowing you to book multiple airlines on a single ticket. Air India, being a legacy carrier, has interline agreements with most other major (non-LCC) carriers in the world.

When trouble occurs (called IRROPS or irregular operations in the industry), airlines can "endorse" your ticket over to another carrier which it has an interline agreement with. That carrier would accept the value of the ticket you bought in order to transport you. This is mutually beneficial for the original carrier (gets customer off their back to their destination, hopefully to customer's satisfaction), the new carrier (another seat is filled), and the passengers (gets to destination).

If you see a flight with availability that you want to go on, you should go to Air India and patiently demand that your ticket be endorsed to the new routing which you want (assuming the new carrier is willing to accept the ticket).

Obviously this is a gross oversimplification, but I'm not really sure how to explain more in detail without writing a book or something.

However, one thing which is useful to know - normally, only the carrier which ticketed you (usually which you are going to fly on) can endorse your ticket. However, in Star Alliance (and I think the other alliances too, but I'm not sure), any Star Alliance airline can endorse your ticket. If Air India had joined Star Alliance already, instead of having to beg Air India to endorse your ticket, you could simply go to say, Lufthansa, and ask them to "take control" of your ticket so you can be rebooked onto LH.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineanshuk From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2009, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 15963 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 2):


Thank you for that explanation. I'll keep this in mind if I ever get stuck in this sort of a situation again!


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8581 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 15955 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 2):
However, in Star Alliance (and I think the other alliances too, but I'm not sure), any Star Alliance airline can endorse your ticket. If Air India had joined Star Alliance already, instead of having to beg Air India to endorse your ticket, you could simply go to say, Lufthansa, and ask them to "take control" of your ticket so you can be rebooked onto LH.

I'm sorry, but I think you are oversimplifying matters here.

First of all, not all tickets on *A carriers are freely changeable to another *A carrier, secondly, the endorsement has to be done by the issuing carrier ( unless the fare is of a type which is valid on all *A carriers) .

Even if AI were a member of *A if a ticket on their stock carries an endorsement stating 'valid on AI only' ( and I can virtually guarantee that some fares will have similar endorsements to that) LH cannot just decide to 'take over' the ticket.... unless they are happy to fly the AI pax for free. On the other hand, if AI as the ticket 'owner' are prepared to endorse that ticket over to another carrier ( whether that carrier is *A or someone else) that is their prerogative. ( Though they may be very reluctant to do so as the other carrier , depending on what agreements exist between them and AI, may bill them for far more than the pax actually paid to AI in the first place)

I think you may be getting confused by the fact that tickets which are issued for actual *A alliance fare products ( such as RTW, Circle Pacific and so on) require no endorsement between *A carriers. This does not mean that I can take a UA issued ticket for say, NRT-SIN, and decide that regardless of any restrictions on the fare, I will go over to SQ and get them to endorse it and accept me for carriage if the UA flight is disrupted for some reason.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 15947 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 4):

I'm sorry, but I think you are oversimplifying matters here.

No need to apologize - I know I'm oversimplifying, I just don't know how to explain it better.

However, I suggest you go do some reading on "Star Alliance Endorsement Waiver"

It's incredibly useful to know.

Edit: link for you
http://www.starallianceemployees.com...eference_guide/rg_ticketing.1.html

[Edited 2012-05-11 17:45:15]


Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8581 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 15907 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 5):
However, I suggest you go do some reading on "Star Alliance Endorsement Waiver"

It's incredibly useful to know.

Edit: link for you
http://www.starallianceemployees.com....html

It is indeed useful, and I would certainly recommend reading it

for example it mentions that the endorsement waiver applies:

provided that:
A. such tickets or MCOs do not bear carrier validation restrictions, which by their terms prohibit the transfer of the ticket or MCOs such as “Valid on XX only” and “Non-Endorsable”;
B. such tickets or MCOs are not governed by fare rules that prohibit transfer of the ticket to the other party.


This is very important because many tickets issued by member carriers will contain such endorsements. Don't get me wrong, it is a useful programme for dealing with irrops, but it is far from being a blanket waiver covering all tickets issued by all *A carriers.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 15902 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 6):


This is very important because many tickets issued by member carriers will contain such endorsements. Don't get me wrong, it is a useful programme for dealing with irrops, but it is far from being a blanket waiver covering all tickets issued by all *A carriers.

This whole discussion was about how to handle IRROPS:

As it says on the website:
When an airline undergoes a schedule change or encounters an irregularity in accordance with the general provisions of IATA Resolution 735D, the two Star Alliance member carriers agree to grant airport control (and thereby waive the endorsement requirement) for the following:
A. non-restricted tickets;
B. restricted tickets;
C. frequent flyer redemption tickets.
No endorsement required for any fare types when an airline encounters an irregular operation (within 24 hours of departure).
Does not apply to ID tickets.


Therefore, with the exception of SQ (which I should have mentioned), it should work in all IRROPS cases that I can imagine a (non-staff) passenger to be in.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 15730 times:

Whats the news on Volks & quikjet status.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 15728 times:

I'll give Volk a call on Monday asking for an update. I've got Radhika Rao's cell number, but I wouldn't want to get her pissed off at me for not calling during business hours...

As for Quikjet, I have not heard any new developments in a while. I think they are still waiting on funding.

I haven't heard anything about Air Costa (LEPL) either - they were hoping to launch this autumn last I heard. I'd think they'd be trying to sell tickets/get publicity if they want to launch so soon.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineBSLFRA From Germany, joined Feb 2011, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 15696 times:

Air India flying normally FRA-DEL-FRA
Today we have a
AI 127 Chicago 08:30 Estimated departure 12:30


User currently offlineBSLFRA From Germany, joined Feb 2011, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 15689 times:

Arrival news in Frankfurt today
AI 121 Delhi 06:55 Expected arrival 11:30


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 15676 times:

Well, at least it's operating. This is a good sign.

Hopefully more pilots will arrive at work tonight.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 15667 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 9):

Has Volks got their AOP already.....



Think of the brighter side!
User currently onlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 15660 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 8):

Whats the news on Volks & quikjet status.

It says they have/going to have 12 A320s. Where are they getting them from? There is no solid news I find about them anywhere. And the seat plan has a 3 class layout. I'm sorry but is that going to work on domestic Indian routes?



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 15652 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):

Has Volks got their AOP already.....

Lol, they haven't even gotten an NOC, forget AOP.

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 14):

It says they have/going to have 12 A320s. Where are they getting them from? There is no solid news I find about them anywhere. And the seat plan has a 3 class layout. I'm sorry but is that going to work on domestic Indian routes?

I'm skeptical. I'll request an interview when I call Monday, hopefully some more light can be shed on the airline.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently onlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15406 times:

Any news on when Spicejet is planning to start flights to new destinations that they've planned, I believe they are waiting until further 737 deliveries, or will they increase their current fleet utilization?

If they start BKK HKG DXB, I'm expecting some very competitive airfare wars with the local budget airlines flying from these destinations... That coupled with the uncertainty of AI and KF international flights and SG is looking at a modest expansion in the near future.



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2977 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15402 times:

According to the GDS, Effective 01 September CX will increase HKG - MAA from 4 weekly to daily flights using an A333. There has been a recent amendment in the HKG - India bilateral wherein airlines like SG, 6E have been given rights to fly to HKG. Also KA has filed for HKG - CCU flights using an A320.


A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently onlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15397 times:

Quoting ojas (Reply 17):
Also KA has filed for HKG - CCU flights using an A320.

KA might just be the first new airline planning CCU flights with the new terminal in mind. Expecting more such CCU-centred aviation news in the months to come.....   



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineojas From India, joined Mar 2008, 2977 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 15209 times:

According to the GDS, Effective 07th June 9W to increase flights between BOM and KWI from daily to 11 weekly.

9W 574 BOM - KWI 2145 2320 Th, Fr, Sa, Su
9W 573 KWI - BOM 0030 0705 Mo, Fr, Sa, Su

Aircraft: B737-800



A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 15082 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 15):

Lol, they haven't even gotten an NOC, forget AOP.

Exactly.....Why I was wondering.....Nothings on line then why the noise.....  



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14972 times:

Fly first, talks later: Government to striking Air India pilots.
http://www1.economictimes.indiatimes...ia-pilots/articleshow/13138558.cms

Quote:
"Fly first, talks later" was Government's firm message to striking Air India pilots refusing to resume work for the seventh day today, as the airline stopped West-bound bookings for another two days and contemplated suspending global operations.

As losses in the wake of the agitation by over 200 pilots of the Indian Pilots Guild crossed over Rs.150 crore, 14 international flights were cancelled, bringing no end to the woes of the passengers.

The airline, which had stopped taking bookings for flights to North America and Europe till Tuesday, extended the period till May 17, airline officials said. One of the options being mulled is shutting international operations temporarily till a resolution to the stir is reached, they said.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10765 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14957 times:

So AI is still desparately trying to lease out some of its surplus 777s? They are trying to do so since 1 1/2 years or so, but there are no takers.

User currently offlinevikramv1 From India, joined Jul 2011, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 14737 times:

Jet Airways is cancelling its Mumbai- Bahrain service from 16th June 2012, citing poor profitability.

http://airliners1.com/2012/05/jet-ai...-intl-ops-cancels-bahrain-service/


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 14723 times:

Quoting na (Reply 22):
So AI is still desparately trying to lease out some of its surplus 777s? They are trying to do so since 1 1/2 years or so, but there are no takers.

Yes.

Every time they find a lessee, they have to go through the whole government approval process (which takes 6+ months), by which time the lessee's situation has changed or they found a new lessor.

AI really needs to be exempted from these bureaucratic time-wastes. The amount of money the inefficiency calls them is staggering.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently onlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14844 times:

G´day

I just found this bit on Air India pilots having been sacked

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...rvices-as-strikes-continue-371912/

Quote:
Air India has sacked 71 pilots and cancelled as many as 17 international services because of an ongoing labour dispute
Unquote:

I do not quite get why sacking Indian Airlines pilots - pilots flying domestically - would lead to cancellation of international flights. I doubt Air India 747 pilots are now flying Indian Airlines 320´ies   


Cheers

Peter

[Edited 2012-05-15 04:50:45]


"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Reply 26, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14808 times:

I notice airfares are pretty high - BLR-DEL around Rs 15K. Is this normal or because of the AI and IT debacle?

User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14968 times:

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 25):
G´day

I just found this bit on Air India pilots having been sacked

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...rvices-as-strikes-continue-371912/

Quote:
Air India has sacked 71 pilots and cancelled as many as 17 international services because of an ongoing labour dispute
Unquote:

I do not quite get why sacking Indian Airlines pilots - pilots flying domestically - would lead to cancellation of international flights. I doubt Air India 747 pilots are now flying Indian Airlines 320´ies


Cheers

Peter

No Indian Airlines (ICPA) pilots have been sacked. Only IPG (Air India International) pilots.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 28, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 14727 times:

It seems that the AI pilots union is unwilling to call off the strike before the terminated pilots are taken back first. Is there any chance that some AI pilots may never be reinstated to send a signal of toughness by the mgmt. and the ministry?
http://www1.economictimes.indiatimes...ingers-on/articleshow/13158968.cms

Quote:
The strike by Air India pilots entered its eighth day on Tuesday with no signs of a possible resolution of the deadlock. Neither the civil aviation ministry nor the Air India management made any moves to initiate talks with the striking pilots.

"There is no initiative from either the management or the civil aviation ministry to start a dialogue. At least some assurance can be given by them that our demands are justified and that they will seriously look at the issues. There is no question of resuming flights till such time as sacked pilots are taken back," said Jitendra Awhad, president of the Indian Pilots' Guild.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14506 times:

Well, everyone was slamming the IPG over this strike, but I decided to write a piece from their position (I will write a piece from management position next, and hopefully one with ICPA too). Hopefully, my readers are intelligent enough to be able to figure out their opinion after hearing everyone out  

Some of the thing they have to say are a lot more complicated than they initially appear...

Here's an excerpt, because the whole thing is 1500 words+:
http://aeroblogger.com/home/blog/air-india-strike-ipg-perspective/

Quote:
Editorial note: the author does not endorse this perspective, he is simply explaining it for the purpose of public understanding.

As everyone surely is aware by now, the Indian Pilots Guild, Air India’s pre-merger pilot union, is striking right now. What many people do not know is why. Why is the IPG striking?

The mass media was very quick to criticize the IPG. Coming right after a 30,000 crore rupees bailout package was passed, inconveniencing thousands of passengers, and costing Air India 10 or 20 crores a day (not to mention brand damage), this strike was definitely a nuclear option. The IPG pilots not only feel that this strike was justified, they also feel that their perspective and requests are being trivialized.

“There are a lot of legitimate complaints we have. [Minister of Civil Aviation] Ajit Singh has said as much,” said a striking IPG first officer who declined to be named. “Even after saying this, the management and government are doing nothing, and the media, which doesn’t understand the whole story, continues to blast our positions.”

The first complaint that the IPG has concerns Boeing 787 Dreamliner training. The IPG feels that only they should be permitted to fly these state-of-the-art aircraft, ordered by erstwhile Air India. Management feels that the aircraft should be divided on a 1:1 basis between the IPG and the ICPA, erstwhile Indian Airlines’ trade union. The media was quick to criticize this demand, calling the union greedy and selfish. From a layperson’s view, the management seems to make sense – this is a new state-of-the-art aircraft, and all pilots in the merged company should have a chance to fly it.


However, IPG doesn’t see it that way. Air India took delivery of all the new aircraft ordered for Indian Airlines. In addition to taking delivery of these aircraft, Air India also recruited more than enough pilots – in fact, Indian has far more commanders (Captains) than Air India does, because commander upgrades are done within 4 or 5 years, and are time-based instead of requirement-based. Time-based upgrade policy means that no matter what, after a set period of time, the pilot will get upgraded. In comparison, requirement-based policy means that upgrades will only occur if there is requirement for another commander. Air India pays ICPA commanders higher salaries than first officers, at the expense of the company, despite the fact that these commanders are not necessary. With all the aircraft delivered, Indian Airlines has roughly 800 pilots operating 66 aircraft.

In comparison, despite hiring enough pilots to operate all 50 aircraft ordered for erstwhile AI, the IPG only flies 22 aircraft. Since Air India pilots get upgraded to commander at a later stage than their Indian Airlines counterparts, and their contract only allows them to upgrade if there is the necessity for a commander, operating less jets than expected is a severe hit to young IPG pilots’ career progression.

So IPG feels that the management’s decision to let Indian Airlines commanders also fly the 787 is to cut down on salary costs, at the direct expense of IPG members. Since Indian Airlines will produce commanders whether the combined company needs them or not, while erstwhile Air India pilots will not be upgraded unless there are actual aircraft for them to fly, it makes sense to management to send ICPA members to train for the 787.

While some IPG pilots that I’ve communicated with concede that while Air India is losing money, and it does make sense to the management to try to save money, this is not an appropriate way. There are many ways to cut costs that do not affect pilot pay or benefits, and they listed many in a press release. They are very unhappy about it for obvious reasons – they make less money, have less flexibility, and lose other advantages of working for Air India that they thought they had. Not only this, but the IPG claims that management is flouting promises made shortly after the merger took place.

keep reading

Thoughts?



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14454 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 29):

I don't get it. Are there still two contracts, one for the IPG and one for the ICPA? Wasn't the seniority list merged? If not this merger is a cluster f*ck.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14455 times:

Quoting golfradio (Reply 30):

I don't get it. Are there still two contracts, one for the IPG and one for the ICPA? Wasn't the seniority list merged? If not this merger is a cluster f*ck.

Everything has been merged except for labor. Cabin Crews, Pilots, and Maintenance/Engineering are still separated.
Much like US Airways was for the longest time...



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14433 times:

I can understand their beef. They literally got shafted on this one. Though I am anti union and don't support strikes, I can understand where they are coming from.

Ajit Singh is on record saying that this merger was a mistake. An admittance that is too little too late. It's hard to believe that Praful Patel took two profitable entities and flushed them down the toilet.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 33, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 14252 times:

No end to Air India pilots' stir; High Court warns of contempt action. IPG may file an appeal with the Supreme Court.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...pt-action/articleshow/13224177.cms

Quotes:
With no end in sight to the 10-day stir by over 200 Air India pilots, the Delhi High Court today warned they could face contempt action for "wilfully and flagrantly" disobeying court orders and continuing with their "illegal" agitation.

Rejecting the IPG plea, the court said, "in our view, no litigant can avail of any discretionery remedy from the court by wilfully and flagrantly disobeying the orders of the court."


User currently offlinevtnyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 14243 times:

Quoting golfradio (Reply 32):
Ajit Singh is on record saying that this merger was a mistake.

That is his opinion. One or a dozen people saying it does not make it so. In the face of competition form behemoths like EK, LH, BA not to mention emerging local carriers like 9W and merging the two state entities made perfect sense, seamless connectivity between the local towns to cities across the globe. As usual the job was half baked by leaving the workforce disjoint. What AI/IC needs is a form bankruptcy that in addition to wiping the slate clean of all the financial obligations should also eliminate all union contracts.



First Flight, PA001 DEL-FRA-LHR-JFK; Dream- JFK-COK on a B6 787
User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 14231 times:

Quoting vtnyc (Reply 34):
In the face of competition form behemoths like EK, LH, BA not to mention emerging local carriers like 9W and merging the two state entities made perfect sense, seamless connectivity between the local towns to cities across the globe

The bottom line is both the airlines were *profitable*. Except for EK, none of the other airlines were profitable. The seamless connectivity could have been solved in other ways like code sharing, interlining and easy domestic to international transfers. There are always other creative ways to solve a problem than the obvious, which could be a bad decision, like in this case.


User currently onlinevivekman2006 From India, joined May 2006, 541 posts, RR: 3
Reply 36, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 14101 times:

Quoting ojas (Reply 17):
There has been a recent amendment in the HKG - India bilateral wherein airlines like SG, 6E have been given rights to fly to HKG. Also KA has filed for HKG - CCU flights using an A320.

How big is the HKG-CCU market?

Also, I don't think a 738 or an A320 can do DEL/BOM/MAA - HKG, can they? If not, then how would SG & 6E benefit from the HKG rights considering they do not have widebodies currently?


User currently onlinevivekman2006 From India, joined May 2006, 541 posts, RR: 3
Reply 37, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 14098 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 26):
I notice airfares are pretty high - BLR-DEL around Rs 15K. Is this normal or because of the AI and IT debacle?

AI domestic doesn't seem to have been affected much. The domestic aircraft are all ex-IC A32x flown by ex-IC pilots who are not on strike.

Apr-June is also the time when many Indians travel for a holiday, because of summer vacations in schools.


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 38, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 14088 times:

Looks like the 787 delivery will actually happen this month - based on the flurry of reports that were critical of the email that the Civil Aviation Ministry sent inviting journalists for an all-paid junket w/ Mr. Singh to Seattle/Charleston May 28-31.


The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlinerobk From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3955 posts, RR: 18
Reply 39, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 13990 times:

Quoting WestWing (Reply 38):
Looks like the 787 delivery will actually happen this month - based on the flurry of reports that were critical of the email that the Civil Aviation Ministry sent inviting journalists for an all-paid junket w/ Mr. Singh to Seattle/Charleston May 28-31.

VT-ANH set for 29 May. VT-AND has slipped to mid June.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 13977 times:

Quoting robk (Reply 39):

VT-ANH set for 29 May. VT-AND has slipped to mid June.

Source?



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Reply 41, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 13881 times:

Quoting vivekman2006 (Reply 37):
Quoting comorin (Reply 26):
I notice airfares are pretty high - BLR-DEL around Rs 15K. Is this normal or because of the AI and IT debacle?

AI domestic doesn't seem to have been affected much. The domestic aircraft are all ex-IC A32x flown by ex-IC pilots who are not on strike.

Apr-June is also the time when many Indians travel for a holiday, because of summer vacations in schools.

Thank you Vivek. I have been in BLR for the last few months and planning trips to SIN and DEL. I guess the rock bottom fares will return after the hols are over?

Also, I note that IT schedules still show up on sites like makemytrip.com etc. Does it mean that they are still flying, and isn't it just too risky to book flights on IT ?


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 13870 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 41):

Also, I note that IT schedules still show up on sites like makemytrip.com etc. Does it mean that they are still flying, and isn't it just too risky to book flights on IT ?

Yes to first part, no to second. They're still flying, but I wouldn't step anywhere near one of their planes.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Reply 43, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 13805 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 42):
They're still flying, but I wouldn't step anywhere near one of their planes.

Thanks - though I was concerned about cancellation risk...


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 13808 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 43):
Thanks - though I was concerned about cancellation risk...

It's not just cancellation risk. Staff are demotivated, cabins are in tatters (I'd rather not think about what the state of their maintenance department could be right now), and the "food" which they attempt to serve is simply not edible.

(Just to clarify after getting asked multiple times: I am not suggesting that IT is unsafe. The DGCA is still carrying out daily inspections on their aircraft, and I am confident that the aircraft are being maintained properly. However, the state of cabin interiors don't exactly inspire confidence. That's all)

[Edited 2012-05-18 09:47:04]


Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 45, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13786 times:

SpiceJet snatches No 3 slot from Air India in April. Indigo seems to be galloping towards no.1 spot.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...-in-april/articleshow/13271761.cms

Quote:
Despite a marginal improvement in the seat factor, the national carrier Air India has lost its market share in April, helping the low-cost airline SpiceJet to become the third largest airline in the month with a market share of 17.7 per cent, according to the latest data from the sectoral regulator DGCA.

The fall in the market share of AI is significant as the national carrier has seen an improvement in its seat factor from 68.9 to 70.5 per cent in the reporting month.

The Chennai-based airline saw its seat factor jumping a full 7 per centage points to 80 (second best in the industry) in April from 73 in March, while the second biggest gainer on this front was IndiGo, which saw its seat factor rising from 76.5 per cent in March to 82 per cent in April, which is the highest in the industry.

However, the biggest gainer in the month was IndiGo, whose market share jumped from 21.9 per cent to 23.8 per cent, while Jet Group, too, lost a tad of its market share from 29.2 in March to 28.2 per cent in April.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 46, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 13549 times:

Stories of how AI employees stole from the airline.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article3436439.ece?homepage=true

Quote:
Even as Air India struggles to survive on the back of an Rs.30,000 crore government bailout, investigations conducted by its vigilance wing have unearthed over 160 cases where employees milked the airline by stealing liquor, caviar and other luxury goods from aircraft.

The cases, Union Civil Aviation Minister Ajit Singh has said in response to a question in the Lok Sabha, included a flight purser who was dismissed from service after he was apprehended with 372 mini-liquor bottles by customs at Delhi's Indira Gandhi International Airport. Similarly, a catering officer was found with Rs. 20,200 worth of caviar tins that were missing from a special charter flight.

Large scale malpractices, the Minister said, ran through the airline. Air India officials selected five-star hotels in New York, Chicago and Mumbai for cockpit crew without following the tender procedure, while the bills were raised at a Delhi airport restaurant for delayed departure even though the flight was on time.

Bogus attendance, inflated bills and overtime claims were also unearthed during investigations. For instance, two senior officers were found guilty of procuring portable entertainment appliances and ground pods through a middleman, thus causing loss to the tune of $1.6 million besides a recurring cost of over Rs. 7 crore per annum for equipment which were hardly used.

Mr. Singh said even highly-paid pilots had engaged in malpractices, with several found to have been claiming allowances to which they were not entitled. In one case, a pilot was actually found to be working for another airline while continuing to draw a salary from Air India. Air India officials, the Minister said, made payments of allowances linked to time spent for flying aircraft from the date their contracts began--whereas they were only certified to fly aircraft a month later.

Junior staff at Air India were not far behind in following their seniors. Air India officials, the Minister said, frequently misused their position to get their relatives and friends upgraded.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 47, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 13408 times:

Bz/DHL to get its next B752PCF next month..... VT-BDO.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 44):
Staff are demotivated

mgmt needs to get things working......fast....



Think of the brighter side!
User currently onlinevivekman2006 From India, joined May 2006, 541 posts, RR: 3
Reply 48, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13174 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 47):

Bz/DHL to get its next B752PCF next month..... VT-BDO.

What's the fleet like now? Are the 732Fs still operational?


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 49, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13092 times:

Quoting vivekman2006 (Reply 48):

What's the fleet like now? Are the 732Fs still operational?

The Last Two B732SFs will retire in 2013.In addition its the 2 B752SF & 3 B752PCF.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 50, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 12965 times:

4 more Air India pilots report for work.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/4-more-ai...ort-for-work-sources/259975-3.html

Quote:
Four more Air India pilots have broken away from their striking colleagues and reported back on duty on Monday, sources said. With the coming back of the four the total number of pilots who resumed their duty has risen to seven. The three pilots had reported for duty on May 16.

The airline has so far lost about Rs 200 crore due to the agitation by over 200 pilots reporting 'sick'. IAF medical facilities in various parts of the country, including Bangalore, Delhi and Jorhat, have been beefed up to conduct their full check-up by medical boards after they complete 14 consecutive days of remaining 'sick' on Monday.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 51, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12780 times:

Induction of Boeing 787 Dreamliner delayed by 2 weeks.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...y-2-weeks/articleshow/13396084.cms

Quote:
The prime reason for the delay is said to have been caused by some time-lag in its final certification and mandatory checks which are carried out before delivery, the sources said, adding that "the process is going on now".

Industry sources said the ongoing strike by some Air India pilots over issues connected with the training programme for flying the Dreamliner was not likely to affect the imminent deliveries from Boeing's North Charleston and Everett plants.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 52, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12758 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 45):

SpiceJet snatches No 3 slot from Air India in April. Indigo seems to be galloping towards no.1 spot.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...1.cms

Spicejet and Indigo are growing rather quickly.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 33):
With no end in sight to the 10-day stir by over 200 Air India pilots,

Now that its broken two weeks, it still looks bad...

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 46):
Even as Air India struggles to survive on the back of an Rs.30,000 crore government bailout

I'm hearing news that India (not AI, India the nation) might have its bond rating cut. Has anyone heard of any political backlash due to this? To be blunt, if India must cut spending, AI seems like a candidate (hence more inspections to find corruption). AI/IA has shrunk enough domestically it could be 'cut loose.'

With the need to cut spending, I would suspect AI would be one of those 'tough decisions:'
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/india-...t-investment-growth-20120522-01175

Something is changing the rupee to dollar exchange rate that does not favor India:
http://www.x-rates.com/d/INR/USD/graph120.html

When a bond rating is threatened, it is either quick action or a cut... I hope for India's sake there is quick action.
India is at the lowest investment grade bond rating. They need to do something to make sure investors are confident the rating will not drop (as it dramatically reduces the liquidity of the bonds):
http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfee...ndia-frets-over-rupee/1001899.html

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 47):
mgmt needs to get things working......fast....

That would require IT to pay their staff timely which it just doesn't have the funds to do.

However, AI is cancelling more flights (prior to the labor strife) than IT:
http://articles.economictimes.indiat...isher-airlines-market-share-flight

I personally would stick a fork in IT. Unless they can clear a large amount of their debt, I do not see how they can continue to operate. With their international long haul shut down and their plummet in domestic market share, it would not be a big deal to shut them down.

To think, they were briefly #1:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/b...n-country/articleshow/12709142.cms

The shrink from 64 aircraft to 20 was painful for the Indian market. If IT survives just 18 more months, Indigo will grow by as much as their current fleet. Besides Dubai and Colombo, does IT have any international and why are neither showing up at:
http://www.flykingfisher.com/

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 50):
have been beefed up to conduct their full check-up by medical boards after they complete 14 consecutive days of remaining 'sick' on Monday.

Will they go back to work or be shown the door?

What has been the cost to India based industry (IT, pharma, chemical, automotive parts, etc.)? Did EK send the pilots group nice lunches or at least flowers with an appreciation card?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 53, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12704 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 52):
Will they go back to work or be shown the door?

I don't expect the IPG(AI pilot union) to go back to work unless its demand to revoke termination of many pilots is met first. It seems that AI mgmt. is considering partial lockout.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...ng-pilots/articleshow/13397261.cms

Quote:
The government is in no mood to show any mercy on striking Air India pilots this time as it is contemplating measures such as mass-sacking leading to a partial shutdown of operations for some time and even contempt proceedings against erring pilots if they do not resume work soon.

A fifth out of the 500 striking pilots belonging to the union Indian Pilots Guild (IPG) have already been sacked as the airline enters the 15th day of the strike, which has bled the airline of about Rs 220 crore so far.

However, the IPG pilots seem to have climbed down from their earlier stance of exclusive opportunity for flying the much-awaited Boeing 787s as a condition to rejoin work to now asking for a written assurance from the government promising to revoke the 101 terminations.

"We will join when all are taken back. Verbal assurance is not good enough and they need to assure us in writing. We have written to the minister last Monday that we aer open for a dialogue," said IPG spokesperson Captain Taufeeq Mukadam.


User currently offlinegoacom From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12666 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 52):
I'm hearing news that India (not AI, India the nation) might have its bond rating cut. Has anyone heard of any political backlash due to this? To be blunt, if India must cut spending, AI seems like a candidate (hence more inspections to find corruption). AI/IA has shrunk enough domestically it could be 'cut loose.'

With the need to cut spending, I would suspect AI would be one of those 'tough decisions:'
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/india-...t-investment-growth-20120522-01175

Something is changing the rupee to dollar exchange rate that does not favor India:
http://www.x-rates.com/d/INR/USD/gra....html

Lightsaber,
AI is not an airline, but a plaything of the ruling party of the day. As such, it will continue to enjoy patronage and support from the government. Hence it is no surprise that the culture of corruption is emblematic and goes deep down to its very rotten core as elucidated in the post below by Laxdesi.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 46):
Stories of how AI employees stole from the airline.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...=true

However, you do make a good point that AI is becoming less relevant to the traveling public and there may come a time when people will begin to question the role of their tax money funding such an incompetent operation. My experience with AI has been mixed to poor. Their customer service is often pretty good once in the air. The problem is the before and after part. In the last several years, I have never had an on time departure, experienced sudden schedule changes. Recently, I and several passengers had their bags unloaded so that they could load up on fee paying excess baggage and cargo. There is a reason why AI continues to lose market share, despite them getting the prime slots and billions in government support. The entire culture of this airline is bad - something that money will never fix. My policy is to avoid traveling on AI unless I have no choice. I tend to skip it even it has the cheapest fare.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 55, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12671 times:

CAG hints at $30 billion scam in Delhi airport deal.
CAG-smells-Rs-1-63-lakh-crore-scam-in-Delhi-airport-deal/Article1-859905.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-...-airport-deal/Article1-859905.aspx

Quote:
The Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) hinted in its report on the Delhi airport modernisation project that the government had given out prime land that will fetch Rs. 1.63 lakh crore to its private sector partner, Dial.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 56, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 12606 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 53):
It seems that AI mgmt. is considering partial lockout.

I suspect politics will come into play limiting the number of terminated pilots.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 53):
A fifth out of the 500 striking pilots belonging to the union Indian Pilots Guild (IPG) have already been sacked

   That is an impressive sum. I hope for the Indian economy's sake that a resolution is found soon (within 30 days or so). But with IT laying off so many pilots, there won't be a shortage in India.  
Quoting goacom (Reply 54):
AI is not an airline, but a plaything of the ruling party of the day. As such, it will continue to enjoy patronage and support from the government.

I do not believe that could survive an Indian government bond rating.

Quoting goacom (Reply 54):
However, you do make a good point that AI is becoming less relevant to the traveling public and there may come a time when people will begin to question the role of their tax money funding such an incompetent operation.

I suspect in a credit crunch, AI's role would be reduced. However, I do not propose anything to happen overnight. But give Indigo and Spicejet another 18 months of expansion and the impact will be less. In particular if time is given for the fate of IT. But India's bond rating is in danger. So that means the spending spigot gets turned down. Thus I see AI under more scrutiny.

Quoting goacom (Reply 54):
There is a reason why AI continues to lose market share, despite them getting the prime slots and billions in government support.

How does one fix such a problem?

Lightsaber

Ps (late edit)
How many aircraft is IT flying. One source will say 20, another 16:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...es-crisis/articleshow/13405436.cms

If what was India's largest airline can collapse that much, than India could recover from a downsizing of AI. (Not today. But given time for Indigo, Spicejet, and 9W to react.)

[Edited 2012-05-22 22:59:18]


Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinegoacom From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12440 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 56):
Quoting goacom (Reply 54):
There is a reason why AI continues to lose market share, despite them getting the prime slots and billions in government support.

How does one fix such a problem?

Lightsaber

First of all, they need to figure out this merger issue between AI and IA. There are still way too many conflicts of interests between the original unions and between the two not fully merged management teams. How long did the merger between UA and CO take? Now compare that with the IA and AI merger that has been years in the making and still not completed.

The next would be to privatize it and to give management the freedom to hire and fire based on merit and market need. Unfortunately, neither will happen anytime soon. So, what is going to happen is that AI will probably continue to loose market share and will become irrelevant. If I could adapt General Mc Arthur's comment: AI will not die, it will just fade away!


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 58, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 12338 times:

Air India to reinstate pilots if they resume work: Ajit Singh. It is a win for AI if former Indian Airlines pilot can train for and fly B787s.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...jit-singh/articleshow/13427161.cms

Quote:
As the deadlock between the government and 500 striking Air India pilots enters the 16th day, civil aviation minister Ajit Singh extended assurance of taking back terminated pilots if everyone resumed work, by reinstating one sacked pilot on Tuesday night.

However, the minister chose not to make any comment on how long the government would wait for the pilots to come around, given that it had sacked 101 pilots in last two weeks, but hinted that the government could come down very hard for holding the airline to ransom.

Meanwhile, members of the Indian Pilots Guild, a union of 500 pilots of Air India (international operations), in a press conference on Wednesday stuck to their stance of rejoining work only if all sacked pilots, 101 in number, are taken back.

However, now their only demand to end the strike is to rejoin along with the terminated members, instead of the original issue of exclusive training on Boeing 787 aircraft. .


User currently offlineBLRAviation From India, joined Feb 2009, 362 posts, RR: 14
Reply 59, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 12128 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 58):
civil aviation minister Ajit Singh extended assurance of taking back terminated pilots if everyone resumed work, by reinstating one sacked pilot on Tuesday night.

More classic capitulation by the government and forcing this on to the management. No wonder the AI bosses are so emasculated in front of these goon unions.

The IPG has caused over Rs. 200 Cr worth of loss to the airline. Who will foot this bill? We the dumb taxpayers in India.



I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 60, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 12121 times:

Exactly.....This drama is like the petrol hike......First the hike then a partial roll back....
In this case....First strike,create confusion & losses & get back to square one.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 12077 times:

Quoting goacom (Reply 54):
Hence it is no surprise that the culture of corruption is emblematic and goes deep down to its very rotten core as elucidated in the post below by Laxdesi.

*yawn* I'm sure you can find unethical employees at any airline

Quoting goacom (Reply 57):

First of all, they need to figure out this merger issue between AI and IA. There are still way too many conflicts of interests between the original unions and between the two not fully merged management teams. How long did the merger between UA and CO take? Now compare that with the IA and AI merger that has been years in the making and still not completed.

Not really sure what you mean - apart from HR integration, the merger is pretty much done. And union infighting is hardly something new in airline mergers - US/HP is a prime example of a very well run carrier which faces these issues.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 59):

More classic capitulation by the government and forcing this on to the management. No wonder the AI bosses are so emasculated in front of these goon unions.

The IPG has caused over Rs. 200 Cr worth of loss to the airline. Who will foot this bill? We the dumb taxpayers in India.
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 60):
Exactly.....This drama is like the petrol hike......First the hike then a partial roll back....
In this case....First strike,create confusion & losses & get back to square one.

In order to maintain their power, politicians run this country for the aam aadmi instead of using basic economic principles. Therefore, these kinds of issues will never see the light of day.

As they say in Dilli, kya karein yaar?



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinegoacom From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12021 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 61):
*yawn* I'm sure you can find unethical employees at any airline

With AI, it is not just ethics (or lack of), but also sheer incompetence. Since getting a job at AI (as with most govt. jobs) is a function of who you know or how much of a bribe you pay, many of the workers give a rats ass if the customer is taken care of.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 61):
Not really sure what you mean - apart from HR integration, the merger is pretty much done. And union infighting is hardly something new in airline mergers - US/HP is a prime example of a very well run carrier which faces these issues.

The merger was announced in 2007. 5 years later, they still have not fully merged. HR integration is a not a trivial issue and may in fact be the toughest part. Rationalizing equipment, facilities and routes is actually pretty easy. The fact that they can't still get their act together (no pun intended) after 5 years, speak volumes. As far as the employee unions merging, best of luck. They have the best of both worlds - infinite protection from the government and from the unions. Public unions are a whole different ball game compared to private unions in terms of power (or its abuse thereof).

The bottom line is that the Government should have no role to play in running an airline, or a coal mine or a refinery for that matter. If they refuse to move out of the way, they will eventually be made irrelevant by the market place. I am looking forward to the day when AI's market share drops to a single digit. The recent $6 billion subsidy may delay that a bit, but as we know from prior GOI "investments" the money will soon disappear into the abyss.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12015 times:

Quoting goacom (Reply 62):

With AI, it is not just ethics (or lack of), but also sheer incompetence. Since getting a job at AI (as with most govt. jobs) is a function of who you know or how much of a bribe you pay, many of the workers give a rats ass if the customer is taken care of.

Now that's a stereotype if I've ever seen one. While getting admittance into AI can be done through corruption (through manipulation of government quotas), AI actually has the strictest standards of the Indian carriers for admittance. In fact, before the merger, AI (closely followed by IC) were the most prestigious airlines of India to get admittance to - and NACIL mostly took the top tier pilots from IGRUA/IAF. Similarly, as a legacy carrier, many staff have the advantage of very good training (which has since been dealing with cost cuts by all carriers). Incompetence can be found, but most frontline staff at the airline are highly qualified for their work.

Quoting goacom (Reply 62):

The merger was announced in 2007. 5 years later, they still have not fully merged. HR integration is a not a trivial issue and may in fact be the toughest part. Rationalizing equipment, facilities and routes is actually pretty easy. The fact that they can't still get their act together (no pun intended) after 5 years, speak volumes.

Agreed, this merger has been a flop. Better planning needed to be done before the merger started. But it's easy to criticize in hindsight. And it's not like all other private sector mergers have been smashing successes - just look at what DN did to IT.

Quoting goacom (Reply 62):
As far as the employee unions merging, best of luck. They have the best of both worlds - infinite protection from the government and from the unions. Public unions are a whole different ball game compared to private unions in terms of power (or its abuse thereof).

If they want to get onto a single contract, they will have to merge. I've been talking to leaders of both unions extensively, and I'm absolutely sure that they want a joint contract, seniority list, etc.

Quoting goacom (Reply 62):

The bottom line is that the Government should have no role to play in running an airline, or a coal mine or a refinery for that matter. If they refuse to move out of the way, they will eventually be made irrelevant by the market place. I am looking forward to the day when AI's market share drops to a single digit. The recent $6 billion subsidy may delay that a bit, but as we know from prior GOI "investments" the money will soon disappear into the abyss.

India is a socialist country today. It is run for the aam aadmi. The public sector is very relevant regardless of all the problems it faces. Whether GoI has any place in the market is irrelevant - they are in the market, and they are here to stay.



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User currently offlinegoacom From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 11985 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 63):
Now that's a stereotype if I've ever seen one. While getting admittance into AI can be done through corruption (through manipulation of government quotas), AI actually has the strictest standards of the Indian carriers for admittance. In fact, before the merger, AI (closely followed by IC) were the most prestigious airlines of India to get admittance to - and NACIL mostly took the top tier pilots from IGRUA/IAF. Similarly, as a legacy carrier, many staff have the advantage of very good training (which has since been dealing with cost cuts by all carriers). Incompetence can be found, but most frontline staff at the airline are highly qualified for their work.

You are only talking about the pilots. However, the bulk of the staff in any airline are not the pilots. Almost no passenger ever has to interface with the pilots. It is AI's incompetent/uncaring ground crew, maintenance, its obsolete online system (belatedly improved after 15 years of hacks), its politically appointed management that is destroying AI. WRT the pilots, the fact that they can start a renegade strike and get away says much about this airline is (un)managed.


User currently offlinegoacom From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 11986 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 63):
Agreed, this merger has been a flop. Better planning needed to be done before the merger started. But it's easy to criticize in hindsight. And it's not like all other private sector mergers have been smashing successes - just look at what DN did to IT.

I believe that IT was doomed even before it took on DN. If IT was smart, they would have adopted DN's lean model. IT was just too prolifigate in its level of service relative to its costs. I mean, come on, did I need 10 ground staffers helping me to check in my luggage, or a 10 course meal for a 45 minute flight. I exaggerate of course, but I'm sure you get my drift.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 11934 times:

Quoting goacom (Reply 65):

I believe that IT was doomed even before it took on DN. If IT was smart, they would have adopted DN's lean model. IT was just too prolifigate in its level of service relative to its costs. I mean, come on, did I need 10 ground staffers helping me to check in my luggage, or a 10 course meal for a 45 minute flight. I exaggerate of course, but I'm sure you get my drift.

Fair enough. I agree, IT was completely overstaffed.

Quoting goacom (Reply 64):

You are only talking about the pilots. However, the bulk of the staff in any airline are not the pilots. Almost no passenger ever has to interface with the pilots. It is AI's incompetent/uncaring ground crew, maintenance, its obsolete online system (belatedly improved after 15 years of hacks), its politically appointed management that is destroying AI. WRT the pilots, the fact that they can start a renegade strike and get away says much about this airline is (un)managed.

AI runs some of the better MROs in India, so I wouldn't be so quick to criticize the maintenance. Regarding ground crew, in my experience, they generally know how to do their job well. Whether they choose to do their job well is completely different story - I guess if you said "many AI ground crew are lazy," I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, most are competent, and some are motivated to do their jobs well.

I completely agree, before SITA came in, AI had a horrible IT system. Thankfully, now it's one of the better ones in India. And AI's new website is definitely the most functional in India, although it's ugly.

Management is destroying Air India, with the help of the unions, government, etc. But laying the blame on a single source isn't fair to them. And making blanket statements isn't either - many AI staff I know actually try to help the airline. Many AI management that I know actually try to turn the airline around. Hopefully their efforts will pay off some day.



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User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7216 posts, RR: 57
Reply 67, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11881 times:

Quoting goacom (Reply 65):
I believe that IT was doomed even before it took on DN.

I agree. In the early days service on IT was fantastic, and it truly earned a five star status. Y class service on IT was far superior to any European J class. With fantastic meals even on ATR short hops, and really attractive fares it was obvious really early on that something had to give.

So rather than get IT right, the Deccan merger totally overcomplicated the problem.

The Deccan / Indigo model is the right one for the vast majority of Indian domestic and gulf travel requirements, so I agree again - IT should have reversed into the Deccan cost base, rather than Vice Versa.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineBLRAviation From India, joined Feb 2009, 362 posts, RR: 14
Reply 68, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11872 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 61):
*yawn* I'm sure you can find unethical employees at any airline

Rohit, in other airlines it is a few black sheep surrounded by mostly white sheep. At Air India, its a few white sheep being hounded by all the black sheep, who of-course are controlled by the black mega-sheep outside the airline.

That's whats killing the airline amongst other things.



I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days ago) and read 11781 times:

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 68):

Rohit, in other airlines it is a few black sheep surrounded by mostly white sheep. At Air India, its a few white sheep being hounded by all the black sheep, who of-course are controlled by the black mega-sheep outside the airline.

That's whats killing the airline amongst other things.

I disagree, assuming you're discussing the same topic I was. I think that people have a tendency of overinflating their perception of the number of "black sheep" at Air India, if "black sheep" means people who steal from the airline.

If by "black sheep," you're talking about the union members who mindlessly follow the will of external political parties, then yes I agree.



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User currently offlineaviationbuff From India, joined Mar 2008, 1425 posts, RR: 3
Reply 70, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11771 times:


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Bernie Leighton


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © chiral



The revised livery is 787 specific or will be applied to all aircraft in the future.

I prefer the red paint on the engines.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 11711 times:

All 787s will have white engines. No change to rest of fleet.


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User currently offlineCOEWR787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 337 posts, RR: 3
Reply 72, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11664 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 71):
All 787s will have white engines. No change to rest of fleet.

I have read in several places that 787 engines must have the standard white paint provided by Boeing in order to meet the requirements for performance and noise. Apparently the type of paint affects drag and noise characteristics sufficiently to matter.


User currently onlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 73, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11653 times:

Seems Jet is actually going the Star alliance way, according to this piece of news

Quote:
In addition to increasing frequencies to existing destinations in the Gulf and Southeast Asia, other new routes under evaluation include Beijing, Ho Chi Minh City and Shanghai in Asia, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Munich, Paris and Rome (with Frankfurt and Munich being the priority destinations in Europe, Chicago, San Francisco and Washington in the US and possible Sydney in the Pacific), the CAPA report added.

The study also hints at Jet Airways becoming the first Indian carrier to join a global airline alliance, Star Alliance.

"Air India's ongoing problems mean that this restriction makes even less sense than it did before and this may force the government to rethink its position. This would pave the way for Jet Airways to become the first Indian carrier to join a global alliance. Its plans to service Frankfurt and Munich are linked to this strategic development," the report said.


So are they certain they will rather benefit from serving through LH hubs. It hints at a possible pact with LH because I don't see how FRA and MUC would be "priority" destinations for them in the near future without that.

Also how likely is it that Govt of India will de-restrict 9W from joining Star, given the poor state of affairs with AI?



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11605 times:

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 73):


Also how likely is it that Govt of India will de-restrict 9W from joining Star, given the poor state of affairs with AI?

0.000001%.

And thank god for that.



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User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 75, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11596 times:
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Quoting bestwestern (Reply 67):
The Deccan / Indigo model is the right one for the vast majority of Indian domestic and gulf travel requirements, so I agree again - IT should have reversed into the Deccan cost base, rather than Vice Versa.

Agreed. I see room for one high end Indian carrier. IT should have cut costs... too late.  
Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 73):
The study also hints at Jet Airways becoming the first Indian carrier to join a global airline alliance, Star Alliance.

One could only hope so. 9W has an excellent reputation.

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 73):
I don't see how FRA and MUC would be "priority" destinations for them in the near future without that.

I agree. I suspect they will enable connections to LH traffic with future flight growth to FRA and MUC, but perhaps 5 years into the alliance.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 74):
0.000001%.

And thank god for that.

Why the 'thank god'? Why should other Indian airlines be sacrificed for AI's incompetence? They had *years* to secure their entry into *A. We can debate about what they did at the end, but the reality is they should have met all of the *A criteria years earlier and didn't. That showed that AI would be unwilling to bend to any *A "suggestion" and thus would have been a thorn in the Alliance's side.

AI just proved, thanks to the strike, they cannot be the sole Indian International airline. Its great to be an enthusiast, but India *must* do things differently to attract foreign investment. I'm not talking for the airline industry, but rather all the other industries in India. Without better connections, which the alliances provide, it will be restricted.

I've pointed out in other threads that friends of mine have pulled *thousands* of jobs out of India due to the inability to do 'snap inspection tours' due to shortages of seats. The decision makers already see too little of their kids. Asking them to take further days away from families to work around Indian airline availability due to GOL politics... doesn't happen. They move the work to Thailand or Malaysia and move on.

India's bond rating is under review for downgrade *below investment grade*. Business as usual will change in India for the worse if that bond downgrade happens. To be blunt, India must become more business friendly to avoid that downgrade. The choice is to cut off the money to AI before or after the downgrade. For if things continue as is,

I think the chance is less than 50% for 9W, but the chance is *far* higher than it was prior to the AI pilots strike. I find it interesting the strike is being used as the excuse not to clear pay arrears:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...-payments/articleshow/13499848.cms

Quite the cut in international routes:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/b...-19th-day/articleshow/13531386.cms
"Apart from the new fare scheme, the airline will shift to a truncated interim schedule for June 1, whereby it will drop seven international destinations, which include Hong Kong, Osaka, Seoul and Toronto, from its regular routine. "


In this weak global economy, *A cannot afford to be tied to Air India and the bad press associated. What confidence would customers have of a secure connection? Let's not forget, there is no indication that AI's pilots are going back to work.

If your job depended on airline reliability (which in today's economy, it often feels like it), would you book an AI flight? The only airlines in India that has a reputation that meets the 'my job is on the line criteria' is Jet and Indigo. AI has had six strikes since 2009 and its obvious the unions know they can ignore court orders!

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-F...-Air-India-go/Article1-854366.aspx

Air India has 243 employees per aircraft versus Indigo's 102. I know Indigo outsources maintenance and has only one narrowbody type, but there is no excuse for the 141 employee discrepancy! To be fair, 9W seems a bit overstaffed as industry average is never a good place to be.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently onlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 76, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11553 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 74):
0.000001%.

And thank god for that.

Why not, do you want that no non-LC Indian airline be allowed to expand their international presence. From what it looks like, 9W is the only airline left in India. (LCAs excluding) And I'm not for once going to blame global/domestic economy for that, but the Govt of India's unprofessionalism w.r.t aviation.



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 77, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 11551 times:
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Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 71):
All 787s will have white engines. No change to rest of fleet.



Also noticed on the AI 787 the lack of the thin red cheat line on the fuselage, as well as no longer carrying Air India titles on tail. I must admit, even with all it's current labor problems, that I've been rooting for AI's survival and a successful launch of the 787 service. The AI colors are beautiful indeed on the Dreamliner, white engines or not!

Tom SJC



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11485 times:

I'm sure everyone knows my position re: Star Alliance.

My hope is that GoI forces AI instead on * throat at their own conditions and forbids explicitly any agreement with 9W. Not because I fly AI and like the airline - but because LH was trying to play a very shrewd and manipulative game, and take advantage of GoI, AI, and the Indian market. I think that forcing AI on *A would be a fair retribution for the arrogant attitude that LH showed all along.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 75):


AI just proved, thanks to the strike, they cannot be the sole Indian International airline. Its great to be an enthusiast, but India *must* do things differently to attract foreign investment. I'm not talking for the airline industry, but rather all the other industries in India. Without better connections, which the alliances provide, it will be restricted.

I never suggested that AI should be the sole international carrier. Competition is of great benifit to the industry. And the days of AI being the sole international carrier are long gone - the bilaterals have pretty much been entirely opened up, and apart from Hajj flights, 9W/6E/SG can do what they want internaitonally.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 75):

the chance is *far* higher than it was prior to the AI pilots strike.

I agree

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 75):

In this weak global economy, *A cannot afford to be tied to Air India and the bad press associated. What confidence would customers have of a secure connection? Let's not forget, there is no indication that AI's pilots are going back to work.

Air India always has the option of using ICPA pilots on the entire fleet and just kicking out the IPG - and this would get rid of any integration headaches too.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 75):
AI has had six strikes since 2009 and its obvious the unions know they can ignore court orders!

Any other union can ignore court orders too. This country is very pro-union, and that's not changing.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 75):

Air India has 243 employees per aircraft versus Indigo's 102. I know Indigo outsources maintenance and has only one narrowbody type, but there is no excuse for the 141 employee discrepancy! To be fair, 9W seems a bit overstaffed as industry average is never a good place to be.

Not sure I agree with this - AI might be overstaffed overall, but the staff are misallocated. This results in a lot of understaffing effects on the operation.

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 76):

Why not, do you want that no non-LC Indian airline be allowed to expand their international presence.

I don't - 9W is free to expand as much as it wants internationally.



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User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 79, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11411 times:
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Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 78):
My hope is that GoI forces AI instead on * throat at their own conditions and forbids explicitly any agreement with 9W

Why? *A will choose whom they wish. AI had years to comply and join *A and was given multiple extensions on *A standard timeline. You're focusing on when the deal fell apart and not when the deal to include AI had a real chance. If AI had sped up their integration with *A, they would have been part and that would help boost there revenue.

9W is ready to join *A within the allowed time frame (I've heard some really short time frames). Why should they be penalized?

My point is that the GOI seems intent on protecting AI no matter the expense for the rest of the economy. Let 9W, Indigo, and others join whatever alliance they wish too. At some point the GOI needs to stop interfering with Indian business unnecessarily. That means letting airline join (or leave) alliances as they wish.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 78):
I never suggested that AI should be the sole international carrier. Competition is of great benifit to the industry.

Today being an international carrier is often being part of an alliance. 9W prefers *A. Why should they have to go through the expense of negotiating with Skyteam or OneWorld?

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 78):
Air India always has the option of using ICPA pilots on the entire fleet and just kicking out the IPG - and this would get rid of any integration headaches too.

Is that politically feasible? Please, that is just a question. The idea had not occurred to me as I didn't think it would go through due to political concerns/union rights.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 78):
AI might be overstaffed overall, but the staff are misallocated.

The combination is not healthy. AI should be at 180 staff per aircraft (maybe even a little less). The rest is inefficiency that must be cut in this market.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 78):
9W/6E/SG can do what they want internaitonally.

I missed the new rules on bilaterals. Thank you. That should dramatically improve India's utilization of Air Service Agreement opportunities.
http://articles.economictimes.indiat...private-carriers-domestic-carriers

I do find the Indian aviation threads fascinating. It is amazing how much the market has changed over the last decade (heck, last few years). But I have seen the economic growth of India constrained by lack of free market International growth. I'm happy to see the other Indian airlines able to grow internationally and hopefully quickly.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 80, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11427 times:
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India may bar Europe carriers in climate tax row

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...e-tax-row/articleshow/13524807.cms

That is an interesting twist... One way to solve the AI/*A dispute.  

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days ago) and read 11369 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):

Why? *A will choose whom they wish. AI had years to comply and join *A and was given multiple extensions on *A standard timeline. You're focusing on when the deal fell apart and not when the deal to include AI had a real chance. If AI had sped up their integration with *A, they would have been part and that would help boost there revenue.

Fair enough - I am focusing on when the deal fell apart. It just galls me that *A would back out of its commitments after AI actually got their act together...

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):

9W is ready to join *A within the allowed time frame (I've heard some really short time frames). Why should they be penalized?

They've been playing a game which I'm not a fan of either - the amount of pro-9W corruption at the MoCA (probably paid for by 9W) is not something I appreciate. But I agree - this isn't a fair penalty for 9W. However, GoI is more interested in spiting LH than helping 9W from what I've heard...

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):

Is that politically feasible? Please, that is just a question. The idea had not occurred to me as I didn't think it would go through due to political concerns/union rights.

Is it politically feasible? It depends on how the NDA does in the next election. If AI MGMT goes ahead with that plan, and the UPA holds onto power, it would be hell for AI MGMT. If NDA comes into power, this plan probably would not be looked upon unfavorably, although I can hardly say that they would be fans.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):

The combination is not healthy. AI should be at 180 staff per aircraft (maybe even a little less). The rest is inefficiency that must be cut in this market.

I agree 100%

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 80):
India may bar Europe carriers in climate tax row

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...e-tax-row/articleshow/13524807.cms

That is an interesting twist... One way to solve the AI/*A dispute.

I'm still at a loss as to how the EU is still holding on to the ETS.



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User currently offlineBLRAviation From India, joined Feb 2009, 362 posts, RR: 14
Reply 82, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11144 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 75):
I've pointed out in other threads that friends of mine have pulled *thousands* of jobs out of India due to the inability to do 'snap inspection tours' due to shortages of seats. The decision makers already see too little of their kids. Asking them to take further days away from families to work around Indian airline availability due to GOL politics... doesn't happen. They move the work to Thailand or Malaysia and move on.

Sorry to begin the week on a negative note. "Your friends" may have pulled "thousands" of jobs out of India for many reasons, but shortage of airline seats just does not appear plausible.

Most airlines to and from India are operating between 70%~80% load factors, so there are ALWAYS seats available. Yes, if you take the peak travel in the last half of December and first half of January, seats availability may be an issue, but not any other time of the year.

BTW, since I am active in the various chambers of commerce at both state and national level, it would be helpful if you can enlighten me in which SPECIFIC sector were these "thousands of jobs" pulled? Around what period and time frame? May be I can share these concerns with the various industry leaders at the chambers.

Also please expand "GOL politics" acronym and oblige.

Thanks in advance.



I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 83, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11136 times:
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Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 81):
It just galls me that *A would back out of its commitments after AI actually got their act together...

I can understand that. But the legal time frame expired (again). *A didn't so much as exclude AI as not extend again.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 81):
GoI is more interested in spiting LH than helping 9W from what I've heard...

I hope not. There is a book on economics called "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" I recommend reading. If one focus on the 'spiting' instead of economic growth, there is a high long term penalty.

The GOI should focus on growing the Indian economy and not 'spiting LH.' If that means letting 9W join *A   . The people who bring money to invest in India do not tolerate inconvenient air service. They have too many other nations to travel to in 2012 to negotiate new contracts. Many are like my friends where the money spent on airfare in a year exceeds their salaries. If regulations, red-tape, or air access increases the number of days away from their families, they push to do business in other regions that do not take the time. This isn't out of petty personal reasons, they just know the problems 'snowball' (grow) and they fix the issue while they still have some hours in the week to do so.

I would love to know the economic impact of the AI strike to the business outside of the aviation industry in India. It isn't zero. In the sequel economics book also by Thomas Freedman "The World is flat" it goes into a case where UTC pulled significant business out of India due to their concerns. The era when industries 'rode out' political events is over. I'm certain the strike has resulted in thousands of jobs leaving India already.

For example, produce sellers in India are losing money due to the AI strike:
http://www.freshplaza.com/news_detail.asp?id=96361

The big losses are future losses as I'm certain fewer new contracts are being signed in India. (For manufacturing, IT, other import/export, etc.) But what is the extent? I haven't been able to find much news. Then again, who publicizes deals that didn't happen? The 325crore losses of Air India will only be a fraction of the business losses for the Indian economy.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 81):
I'm still at a loss as to how the EU is still holding on to the ETS.

I don't understand either. I thought that article was pertinent to this thread. IMHO, Europe has already lost the economic war and continuing to push it forward is a poor diplomatic strategy.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3262 posts, RR: 9
Reply 84, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11121 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 81):
Fair enough - I am focusing on when the deal fell apart. It just galls me that *A would back out of its commitments after AI actually got their act together...

AI might say it had it's act together, and *A might say it did not, and I don't know who's right. But I'd rather trust LH/*A than AI - after all AI had a number of years for something basic that takes other carriers months or a year at most. And the Indian babu's sense of "done" is very well known - often means nothing to the actual end-users, though on paper he can do a CYA and show "proof" that things were "done".



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day ago) and read 11074 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
I do find the Indian aviation threads fascinating. It is amazing how much the market has changed over the last decade (heck, last few years). But I have seen the economic growth of India constrained by lack of free market International growth. I'm happy to see the other Indian airlines able to grow internationally and hopefully quickly.

I think you should add the word "profitability" to your last sentence.

I've been amazed about the fact that everyone finds Jet Airways so great. However my question is why? The airline isn't profitable and doesn't seem to benefit greatly of the demise of IT Yes they grow domestically, but they don't seem able to translate that into profitable growth. If I'm not mistaken they've made a loss for the previous 5 consecutive quarters, and browsing their investor relation site I don't get the impression that they'll be doing better in the short run (their expansion domestically doesn't seem to be profitable). Will be interesting though if 9W can benefit from the recent strikes at AI (though judging by how they're "benefiting" from ITs demise I don't expect much).

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 82):

Most airlines to and from India are operating between 70%~80% load factors, so there are ALWAYS seats available. Yes, if you take the peak travel in the last half of December and first half of January, seats availability may be an issue, but not any other time of the year.

Which is the a problem for Indian aviation I would say.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 81):
I'm still at a loss as to how the EU is still holding on to the ETS.

Very easy, ETS is something the EU won't give up easily as a) some people have fought hard to get it (and most of them are on the left side of the political spectrum, a side which will gain most likely in future elections) and b) abolishing ETS would mean losing face in the world (something will not be done unless there is a good deal for the EU to be made).

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 80):
India may bar Europe carriers in climate tax row

I reckon that Emirates will be very pleased to hear this.


User currently offlineAirIndia From United Arab Emirates, joined Jan 2001, 1644 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (2 years 5 months 21 hours ago) and read 11015 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 85):
I reckon that Emirates will be very pleased to hear this.

more like a bout of ecstacy and dispair. Ecstatic to hope to see competition go but dispair at exhausted bilateral allotments....


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (2 years 5 months 20 hours ago) and read 11004 times:

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 86):

more like a bout of ecstacy and dispair. Ecstatic to hope to see competition go but dispair at exhausted bilateral allotments....

    

Quoting LJ (Reply 85):

I've been amazed about the fact that everyone finds Jet Airways so great. However my question is why? The airline isn't profitable and doesn't seem to benefit greatly of the demise of IT Yes they grow domestically, but they don't seem able to translate that into profitable growth. If I'm not mistaken they've made a loss for the previous 5 consecutive quarters, and browsing their investor relation site I don't get the impression that they'll be doing better in the short run (their expansion domestically doesn't seem to be profitable). Will be interesting though if 9W can benefit from the recent strikes at AI (though judging by how they're "benefiting" from ITs demise I don't expect much).

9W is unprofitable for a variety of reasons. India has high taxes compared to other countries, and a very price-sensitive market. However, Indian passengers are also used to certain benifits like checked bags and free printouts at ticketing desks (something 9W is trying to monetize), which means that airlines must stay competitive without cutting frills in a harsh regulatory climate. Very difficult.

9W also has its share of mismanagement that I could write a book on, but in a more favorable business climate, they still probably could pull through...

People also love to blame AI for everyone's problems, but I think it's an effect that is vastly overstated.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 84):

AI might say it had it's act together, and *A might say it did not, and I don't know who's right. But I'd rather trust LH/*A than AI - after all AI had a number of years for something basic that takes other carriers months or a year at most. And the Indian babu's sense of "done" is very well known - often means nothing to the actual end-users, though on paper he can do a CYA and show "proof" that things were "done".

An impartial (although I can't claim unbiased) auditor verified that AI was ready to join. I understand that AI completely failed at getting its act together early on, but *A pulling out after AI is done fulfilling compliance seems ridiculous to me.

I agree with you on one thing though - nobody here knows the full story. However, knowing GoI/AI's perspective does help understand what their next moves might be...

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 83):

I hope not. There is a book on economics called "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" I recommend reading. If one focus on the 'spiting' instead of economic growth, there is a high long term penalty.

While I agree that spiting is not the best economic policy, it seems that GoI wants to do it anyway.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineBLRAviation From India, joined Feb 2009, 362 posts, RR: 14
Reply 88, posted (2 years 5 months 19 hours ago) and read 10963 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 83):
I would love to know the economic impact of the AI strike to the business outside of the aviation industry in India. It isn't zero. In the sequel economics book also by Thomas Freedman "The World is flat" it goes into a case where UTC pulled significant business out of India due to their concerns. The era when industries 'rode out' political events is over. I'm certain the strike has resulted in thousands of jobs leaving India already.

For example, produce sellers in India are losing money due to the AI strike:
http://www.freshplaza.com/news_detai...96361

You are right that there is economic impact. For sure the extranet of vendors to Air India will be hurting, but in an equal key the economic impact of the strike is essentially contained to Air India and its immediate extranet, and not too much beyond it. Unlike 15~20 years ago, today AI is a minority carrier both domestic and international, and there are significant alternatives available both on passenger and even more so on the cargo front.

The freshplaza news item you posted the link to has a very telling statement in it

Quote:
The boxes can not be transported via other airlines as the traders have pricing and weight agreements with Air India.

What is not said in the story, and is well known in the cargo industry, is that almost all of these exporters have some arrangement with staff in the AI cargo department. and weights are heavily doctored.

When these exporters claim they cannot export via other means, they are full of crap. Emirates alone flies 6 flights a day in to Mumbai. If I remember correctly, four of these six flights are Boeing 777-300s or 300ERs. That means a minimum cargo capacity of 15+ tons per aircraft or 90+ tons daily. EK's six flights alone will provide the capacity of the AI flights to Dubai or the 744 to Jeddah, and let us not forget all those wide-body flights of QR, EY, or Saudi Arabian. I am a regular exporter of products and find it cheaper to ship ex-BOM to KUL than from BLR, and with today's depressed economic climate, airlines will happily give a good rate for volume cargo, just not the doctored rates.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 83):
The people who bring money to invest in India do not tolerate inconvenient air service.

I cannot come around to agreeing with your statement. Where do you see inconvenient air service to/from India or for that matter even within India?

I too have been a member of the 250+ international flights per year club spending more time on-board an aircraft than in any one particular country. What I know about frequent fliers is that miles count, status counts a lot more, and for sure foreign investors will be almost certain to fly an airline from their country (unlike those from India), than AI.

An American is almost certain to fly AA or CO in to BOM or DEL instead of a European or an Asian carrier, just as a Britisher will fly BA, and a German will fly LH. At the most, they will go to other carriers in their base airline's alliance oneworld or Star or SkyTeam. It is a given that they will definitely not fly AI whose FFP is limited to itself only. Even amongst Indian business people, Air India is not the preferred choice due to erratic service.



I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (2 years 5 months 19 hours ago) and read 10950 times:

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 88):

You are right that there is economic impact. For sure the extranet of vendors to Air India will be hurting, but in an equal key the economic impact of the strike is essentially contained to Air India and its immediate extranet, and not too much beyond it. Unlike 15~20 years ago, today AI is a minority carrier both domestic and international, and there are significant alternatives available both on passenger and even more so on the cargo front.

  
The effects of the strike are limited not only because of the plethora of other options, but also because AI is liberally sending its pax (not sure about cargo) on its partners SQ and LH. AI has also implemented its contingency plan nicely, and a lot of passengers and cargo is able to get where it needs to go, when it needs to go.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 88):

What is not said in the story, and is well known in the cargo industry, is that almost all of these exporters have some arrangement with staff in the AI cargo department. and weights are heavily doctored.

  

Corruption in Indian business and government is commonplace. These exporters certainly had other options, it's just that they would have been far more expensive...

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 88):
Where do you see inconvenient air service to/from India or for that matter even within India?

   once again. Devesh is on a roll 

Even without AI, there are plenty of options.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 90, posted (2 years 5 months 17 hours ago) and read 10907 times:
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Since the other airlines now have the rights to fly more international, are there any examples of approved routes (granted bilateral rights)? Any new international flights by Indigo/Jet/Spicejet? Or is the GOI dragging their feet to protect AI?

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 82):
Sorry to begin the week on a negative note. "Your friends" may have pulled "thousands" of jobs out of India for many reasons, but shortage of airline seats just does not appear plausible.

Before EK received their latest expansion in rights, my friend could not buy enough J class seats for snap inspections of the IT outsourcing he was managing in India (inspections required a full team). His job was on the line so he did the sensible move and had the jobs relocated to where his teams could do 'snap inspections.' While I know several IT outsourcing directors, the one I know the most about is my best friend/best man/ex-college roommate and he was frustrated for six months trying to get teams in and out of India (back in the boom).

Quoting LJ (Reply 85):
I reckon that Emirates will be very pleased to hear this.

But not those responsible for import/export in the US or Europe. EK is near its maximum allowed bilateral rights, they have zero option to expand if the European airlines are banned. While EK would make a fortune and suddenly see full premium cabins to India, the flow of people in/out of India would be so disrupted the economic consequences for India and Europe would be huge. I see negotiations ahead. Note: I think Europe will loose.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 87):
While I agree that spiting is not the best economic policy, it seems that GoI wants to do it anyway.

Ouch... That is not a consequence free strategy (read the books I suggested, the explanation isn't short, but it is clear.)

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 88):
For sure the extranet of vendors to Air India will be hurting, but in an equal key the economic impact of the strike is essentially contained to Air India and its immediate extranet, and not too much beyond it. Unlike 15~20 years ago, today AI is a minority carrier both domestic and international, and there are significant alternatives available both on passenger and even more so on the cargo front.
Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 88):
What is not said in the story, and is well known in the cargo industry, is that almost all of these exporters have some arrangement with staff in the AI cargo department. and weights are heavily doctored.

Thank you for the 'local flavor.' But still have have trouble believing that removing that much capacity from India to the world isn't having an impact unless AI was flying with pitiful load factors and yield before!

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 88):
I cannot come around to agreeing with your statement. Where do you see inconvenient air service to/from India or for that matter even within India?

You know... I don't have an example today. I gave the example of prior times, so this leads to a question: Is the Indian economy hurting so bad that there is a surplus of Europe/US J class seats?

AI had 20% market share 3q2011 (latest I could quickly find):
http://www.business-standard.com/ind...s-more-fliersglobal-routes/464132/

If about half of AI's international was cut, that implies 10% of the International seat in/out of India are not being flown. How can cutting so much not create an inconvenience? While I do not have any proof, the math says we should be seeing an issue. Everyone I know who flew US West coast to India in J more than 4X/year would generally have to fly AI once a year due to seat availability. With so many seats removed from the market... something had to have changed.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 88):
Even amongst Indian business people, Air India is not the preferred choice due to erratic service.

   But it is the 'overload fallback.' A fallback half removed from the system. I ask you, how can removing 10% of the seats in/out of India not be having an impact? Is this a really slow time of year?

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 89):
Even without AI, there are plenty of options.

So no constraints getting J class seats to India conveniently? While I'm not flying to India (nor are my contacts right now), I find it difficult to believe that cutting so many seats in/out of India has not created an issue. If J is that open, mea culpa, I made a bad assumption. I'm not talking about individuals, but for teams. There are options. But if removing 10% of capacity for 3+ weeks doesn't matter, that implies AI could be just shut down at this point. Looking at the numbers, that is not the case. Thus the reduced seats must be having a negative economic impact. Someone who would be conducting business isn't flying. It might be lower margin business (back in Y), but its still business that isn't happening.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (2 years 5 months 17 hours ago) and read 10882 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 90):
Since the other airlines now have the rights to fly more international, are there any examples of approved routes (granted bilateral rights)? Any new international flights by Indigo/Jet/Spicejet? Or is the GOI dragging their feet to protect AI?

Not GoI dragging its feet - it's the carriers. In this operating climate, expansion is being considered very carefully.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 90):

Thank you for the 'local flavor.' But still have have trouble believing that removing that much capacity from India to the world isn't having an impact unless AI was flying with pitiful load factors and yield before!

AI's loads and yields were pitiful up front, although better in the back (I suppose a reflection of the very price-sensitive market).

As I already said, the effect has been mitigated a lot by the fact that AI is freely endorsing tickets to SQ and LH.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 90):


If about half of AI's international was cut, that implies 10% of the International seat in/out of India are not being flown. How can cutting so much not create an inconvenience? While I do not have any proof, the math says we should be seeing an issue. Everyone I know who flew US West coast to India in J more than 4X/year would generally have to fly AI once a year due to seat availability. With so many seats removed from the market... something had to have changed.

I agree, it's an inconvenience. But hardly the massive one you are making it out to be - this strike did not hit during peak season - there is enough spare capacity to accommodate everyone, which AI has been doing by endorsing to SQ and LH (in case you didn't get the idea already  )

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 90):

So no constraints getting J class seats to India conveniently? While I'm not flying to India (nor are my contacts right now), I find it difficult to believe that cutting so many seats in/out of India has not created an issue. If J is that open, mea culpa, I made a bad assumption. I'm not talking about individuals, but for teams. There are options. But if removing 10% of capacity for 3+ weeks doesn't matter, that implies AI could be just shut down at this point. Looking at the numbers, that is not the case. Thus the reduced seats must be having a negative economic impact. Someone who would be conducting business isn't flying. It might be lower margin business (back in Y), but its still business that isn't happening.

While there is an effect, I think it's pretty small in the grand scheme of things - the availability is there to get people where they are going for the most part. Maybe not in their preferred class of service, or maybe not with preferred schedule/price/airline/etc, but the availability is there.



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User currently offlineBLRAviation From India, joined Feb 2009, 362 posts, RR: 14
Reply 92, posted (2 years 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 10808 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 90):

Actually LS, the Indian economy has changed drastically. India is loosing "techno-coolie" jobs to Philippines. This is a big reason why the international travel market out of HYD has dried up and you can see European majors pulling out. Of course EK is also a big reason for that. I guess your friends wanted to do snap inspections of these back office low end operations. Higher end development and consulting work does not involve snap inspections but rather well planned reviews.

With costs out of control and leaps in technology video conferencing is the preferred medium.

There is a significant expansion in the automotive and aerospace segments and these product oriented business are shrinking the important of the IT services in the international business of India.

Globally the BASIC countries alignment is forcing foreign companies to develop low cost high value products. Today Daimler announced it is developing 18 "BharatBenz" truck models specific to the India market to compete with Tata Leyland, Volvo and Mahindra Navistar.

Just about a week or ten days ago, I read an interview of a major foreign CEO who stated it is more risky not to be in India, than it is to be in India.

When it comes to seats, premium cabins are available. If you want only the SFO-FRA-BLR LH flight, that might be full, but on a national basis seat availability is a plenty. In fact in a J cabin today the majority passengers are Indian residents.

Just today QR sent out a special 5 day India sale, obviously to get more seats filled. All the European carriers including LH ran sales in the months of April and May. Right now SQ has a sale going on.

In short there is enough capacity. AI strike has hurt, but since AI focusses on the Gulf sector and the VFR economy traffic the overall impact to the Indian economy from a global travel perspective is limited.



I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 93, posted (2 years 5 months 10 hours ago) and read 10731 times:
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Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 92):
Actually LS, the Indian economy has changed drastically. India is loosing "techno-coolie" jobs to Philippines. This is a big reason why the international travel market out of HYD has dried up and you can see European majors pulling out.

First, thank you for your informative post. I found it enlightening. I didn't realize "techno-coolie" jobs were going to the Philippines. Normally I hear about Philippine trends early, but I've missed this one. I shall have to ask around. I've heard more of the jobs going to other SE Asian nations, but that is neither here nor there. What matters is the traffic in/out of India (for this thread).

I suspect the Europeans are also pulling out due to their economy slowing. Air travel is more of an indicator of growth versus total economy...

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 92):
There is a significant expansion in the automotive and aerospace segments and these product oriented business are shrinking the important of the IT services in the international business of India.

Good to hear about those segments. I presume that increases demand to MAA? What other regions are benefiting.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 92):
Just about a week or ten days ago, I read an interview of a major foreign CEO who stated it is more risky not to be in India, than it is to be in India.

For big companies, I agree. One reason I'm fascinated by Indian aviation is there is a HUGE opportunity for growth. Heck, I'm a bit obsessed with the opportunities for growth at DEL. (It hasn't fulfilled even a quarter of its potential IMHO.) But that requires 'smoothing out' the regulatory process of hubbing at DEL and out doing the mid-east airlines in the 'connecting experience.' The new terminal building has brought much improvement, but I see further for: shopping, pubs, showers, etc.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 92):
In fact in a J cabin today the majority passengers are Indian residents.

Interesting tidbit.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinevin2basketball From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (2 years 5 months 7 hours ago) and read 10701 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 93):

For big companies, I agree. One reason I'm fascinated by Indian aviation is there is a HUGE opportunity for growth. Heck, I'm a bit obsessed with the opportunities for growth at DEL. (It hasn't fulfilled even a quarter of its potential IMHO.) But that requires 'smoothing out' the regulatory process of hubbing at DEL and out doing the mid-east airlines in the 'connecting experience.' The new terminal building has brought much improvement, but I see further for: shopping, pubs, showers, etc.


Ideally, BOM will get this right with their new integrated terminal for 2014/15, and then hopefully 9W will finally structure their large BOM operation as a true connecting hub.

I think that DEL has some growth left, but the real opportunities are AMD (Gujarat's economy is on overdrive), and MAA to a lesser degree (has been a little overlooked IMHO with all the hubbub around BLR, my current blog notwithstanding =P @BLRAviation).


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 95, posted (2 years 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 10633 times:
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Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 94):
Ideally, BOM will get this right with their new integrated terminal for 2014/15, and then hopefully 9W will finally structure their large BOM operation as a true connecting hub.

That would be an excellent opportunity and should help 9W's bottom line.

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 94):
I think that DEL has some growth left, but the real opportunities are AMD (Gujarat's economy is on overdrive), and MAA to a lesser degree (has been a little overlooked IMHO with all the hubbub around BLR, my current blog notwithstanding =P @BLRAviation).

MAA has much potential. However, unlocking some of that potential requires an update to the Korea/India bilateral. I think it will happen, just when?

I personally think DEL has a HUGE amount of potential as an International hub with the benefit of Indian domestic connections. I think that that growth has been under-realized by a large factor. For example, DEL is at an ideal location for hubbing Asia to Europe (versus DXB/AUH/DOH), or to Africa. The advantage (in distance) is small, but could be exploited with a well run hub. Now, it would take a bit more hotel/airline integration and the advantage of high (vs. the mid-east hubs) O&D demand would create an impressive mega-hub. While DEL is a large airport, I see it possible to have a hub system with greater passenger traffic than today's ATL. But that requires a 'step change' in how hubbing is conducted there.

I agree there are opportunities at AMD. I hear about the growth from coworkers who grew up there. Perhaps I shouldn't have discounted their enthusiasm! Is there any plans to add a 2nd runway (even if far in the future)?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineBLRAviation From India, joined Feb 2009, 362 posts, RR: 14
Reply 96, posted (2 years 5 months ago) and read 10549 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 93):
First, thank you for your informative post. I found it enlightening. I didn't realize "techno-coolie" jobs were going to the Philippines. Normally I hear about Philippine trends early, but I've missed this one. I shall have to ask around. I've heard more of the jobs going to other SE Asian nations, but that is neither here nor there. What matters is the traffic in/out of India (for this thread).

My pleasure, and thanks for the patient reading. Voice jobs are going to Philippines, process jobs are going to Vietnam. Malaysia is also more process. Singapore is getting financial services. Thailand is food and manufacturing. However, due to the FTA's that India has signed or is signing there is two-way growth.

For instance, you may be aware, the Japanese invested heavily in Thailand for manufacturing, especially auto. Both Honda and Toyota were major forces behind the India-Thailand FTA and both these companies get lots of parts from Thailand at negligible duty. Toyota was smart, Honda was over-smart. Toyota has invested and today all stick-shift transmissions for the Toyota Fortuner SUV, globally, are made in and exported from Bangalore. Unlike Honda who is now reeling from the effects, Toyota have developed a small diesel engine for the India market. Hyundai and Suzuki use their India plants to export cars to Europe to bypass anti Japanese and anti Korean sentiment.

Honda relied on imports from its Thai plants. When the floods hit Thailand, the Indian market was at its peak, and they could not cater to any demand. By the time the Thailand factories came back up, the Indian fuel prices went out of whack, and now Honda is one of the only car companies without a diesel engine offering, so their sales are heavily impacted.

But both Honda and Toyota are heavy drivers of traffic demand pax and cargo between DEL-BKK and BLR-BKK. Similarly, the auto majors of Germany are a big reason for the LH LBJ B738 service direct PNQ-FRA.

Along the coast of Gujarat there are major investments in the refining, and chemical industries, both by Indian majors like Reliance, and foreign majors like GE. GE is not just limited to engineering plastics, they are heavily involved in Indian railways for locomotives along with GM.

Bosch engineers were challenged by Tata Motors to develop a low cost fuel injection system for the Nano. They took at 1200 Euro injector, re-engineered it and brought the cost down to 45 Euro. Bosch India now exports these injectors across the globe.

Dr. Devi Shetty has perfected techniques for heart surgery on a mass scale. He now does CABG surgeries for less than $5000 all inclusive. His cost is about $2,500. For each surgery he does for a rich person, he does one at cost, and one for a poor person for free.

I am not dis-regarding the contribution of the IT-BPO industry. It contributes of $100 billion of India's $350 billion in exports, but when you look at the total Indian economy of about $1700 billion its contribution reduces drastically due to its low domestic contribution.

Sorry for the long story, but wanted to show you how companies are investing in India and developing or adapting their products to the India's needs. Then rolling out their successes in the world. These then contribute to the growth of air traffic in the non-traditional India-UK, India-USA sectors. African carriers are increasing their flights to India to meet the growing demand from India not just for Africa but also South America.

If you see the newspapers today, gone are the days where everyday you saw XYZ is investing $x in a tech centre in India, now it is XYZ company has developed this solution for India, or how XYZ company's India centre has invented this new technology which is being rolled out in the world, etc.

The rest of Indian industry is actually happy that low end BPO jobs are going out. It relieves the space pressures.  
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 93):
I suspect the Europeans are also pulling out due to their economy slowing. Air travel is more of an indicator of growth versus total economy...

Air travel is always directly proportional to economic growth. IATA estimates that air travel growth is 1.5x to 2x the rate of GDP growth. Last year Indian air traffic was growing at 12%~15% on GDP growth of 8%. It has slowed and last month, air traffic growth plunged to almost zero. The European, GCC and ASEAN carriers are highly dependent on transit traffic from South Asia. India is the second biggest geography for LH after North America, not China. EK operates 189 flights a week to/from India. QR is at about 102 flights a week. EY has not yet utilised its full bi-laterals.

I asked Dr. Dinesh Keskar of Boeing the question as to why SQ and EK have made a success of the Boeing 777 while 9W and AI are struggling. His answer was the connectivity these two carriers offered. EK offers a passenger almost anywhere in the world a one stop connection to almost anywhere in the world (I am assuming passengers who reside in their destination cities). Very few airlines are members of the six continents club. EK is one of them. If I remember BA and DL are some of the others. Keskar's full interview is here http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/201...-can-you-save-money-except-by.html

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 93):
Good to hear about those segments. I presume that increases demand to MAA? What other regions are benefiting.
Demand is increasing across India with the exception of the east, thanks to industry friendly communists and now Didi.

Major auto hubs currently are in west Nashik and Pune (Skoda, VW, Tata, Bajaj, Firodia, Mahindra, Mercedes cars and trucks), coming up very fast and very big is Sanand in Gujarat which will become auto hub India (Tata Nano, Maruti, Ford). Nothing much in the east. North, in and around NCR, Honda SIEL (cars), Maruti-Suzuki, and then the two-wheel biggies Hero, Honda Yamaha. South is Chennai with Hyundai, Ford, BMW, and Ashok Leyland, Bangalore is Toyota, TVS, Ashok Leyland, Volvo, setting up is Saab Scania, Hyundai, Hero, and I forget who else.

Cities today are like octopi with industrial estates linking and extending. I live in Bangalore, and today the city extends at least 35km in each direction. Bidadi to the south-west, Attibele at the Tamil Nadu border, Hosure just across the border is in reality a suburb of Bangalore, Kolar in the east, and Dobbspet to the North West. Now with the airport in the North, expect service industry to flood there (water problems will exclude manufacturing industry).

Industrial land is just not available. Today, a cause of concern for slowing growth is that government has thrown up its hands. They have told industry bodies, you go find the land, make the deal with the farmers, then we will come and do the actual processing, take possession of the land and hand it over. Current rates are 1 Cr per acre 30km~50km away from Bangalore. In suburbs like Peenya industrial land is now quoted in sq.ft not acres. Bommsandra, Jigani, Attibele are all above 3Cr~4Cr per acre, IF, available.

Auto industry drives auto components and auto majors bring in their preferred vendors. FDI in auto ancillaries is large. Bosch, Delphi, Denso, Igarashi, Toyoda, Sumitomo, the list is endless. Exports from Bharat Forge, Rane, and other Indian majors is very large. Almost all auto majors source parts from India.

Then let us not forget what is regarded as the BEST plant in the Nokia family sits right smack near Chennai. Went from zero to 6 million phones per month in less than two years, and is now a huge exporter. Many components are imported. In fact, Nokia used to use Bangalore airport because the customs officers here were more efficient in clearances, and then truck down to Chennai and still saved a day compared to clearing at Chennai. Dell has an large assembly facility near Chennai. All the EMS majors Flextronics, Jabil, Foxcon, Sanmina SCI, Celestica, LG and to a lesser degree Samsung have made huge investments in India. LG now makes all its CD-ROM drive products in India (Ahmednagar near Pune) and exports them.

Aerospace. HAL is of-course king, but you have Dynamatix, Quest, and a whole horde of others coming up, all essentially in Karnataka, Bangalore and Belgaum.

The Japanese are wanting to develop a super highway corridor between Bangalore and Chennai investment runs in to billions of dollars. You will see phenomenal development in Gujarat. I am truly surprised why Ahmedabad has not yet taken off as an airport. Congress politics to put down Modi? Who knows.

Lighter weight, high value engineering goods, fruits, veggies, flowers, clothing, all go out by air from Bangalore. No port makes Bangalore export 40%+ by air compared to India average of 30+ and global average of 35%.

I think Indian carriers must look to riding on this demand, the problem is that their pockets are not deep at all. Chennai, Bombay and Delhi have economic linkages to Korea. Bangalore and Delhi to Tokyo. Indian carriers can offer flights to these countries and partner with JL, NH, UA, AA, KA, OZ, DL, and whole host of others to carry Indians trans-pac. Will offer a credible alternative to ASEAN and GCC carriers.

It is interesting to see this list of Indian states by GDP. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_by_GDP Maharashtra GSDP is almost twice of the next state UP. Yet if you see, BOM airport has HYD, BLR, AMD, MAA as competition within 90 minutes flying time. DEL on the other hand has no significant alternative within 2 hours flying time.

So the growth prospects for DEL airport are strong, but rest of Indian airports will have to share the pie and there will see distributed growth.



I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (2 years 5 months ago) and read 10535 times:

Very nice post Devesh. I learned a lot  . I was going to add you to my respected users list, but then I realized that you were already there 
Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 96):

Dr. Devi Shetty has perfected techniques for heart surgery on a mass scale. He now does CABG surgeries for less than $5000 all inclusive. His cost is about $2,500. For each surgery he does for a rich person, he does one at cost, and one for a poor person for free.

I see that I'm not the only A.netter who watches Satyamev Jayate  



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineBLRAviation From India, joined Feb 2009, 362 posts, RR: 14
Reply 98, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10430 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 97):
I see that I'm not the only A.netter who watches Satyamev Jayate  

Is that the Aamir Khan programme on Star? Sorry don't watch it. Know Dr. Shetty for last 20 years since he did my dad's bypass surgery and became good friends with him.

If I may suggest, it is important to understand economic linkages and drivers. Also at the same time very crucial to understand politics, political compulsions, to get an appreciation of what happens in India. There is no black or white here only infinite shades of grey.  

Just see this story on a committee set up to rationalise Air India routes. http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...onomy/logistics/article3466290.ece there is NO ONE from Air India on the committee.

[Edited 2012-05-29 05:29:35]


I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
User currently offlineBLRAviation From India, joined Feb 2009, 362 posts, RR: 14
Reply 99, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10385 times:

Quote:
Kingfisher Airlines' debt levels are at a peak, and there is no room for further debt, the State Bank of India Chairman, Mr Pratip Chaudhuri, said here on Monday.
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...onomy/logistics/article3466043.ece



I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10367 times:

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 98):

Is that the Aamir Khan programme on Star?

Yes, that program. Although I normally watch on DD...

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 98):
Sorry don't watch it. Know Dr. Shetty for last 20 years since he did my dad's bypass surgery and became good friends with him.

Well, he was featured this weekend. Seems like he's doing some great work...

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 98):

If I may suggest, it is important to understand economic linkages and drivers. Also at the same time very crucial to understand politics, political compulsions, to get an appreciation of what happens in India. There is no black or white here only infinite shades of grey.

Will definitely keep this in mind. It makes a great deal of sense. If only it was as easy to understand these things (or even find credible information) as it was to agree that understanding is important...

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 98):

Just see this story on a committee set up to rationalise Air India routes. http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...onomy/logistics/article3466290.ece there is NO ONE from Air India on the committee.

(facepalm)

What is the need for a DGCA person on this committee anyway?? It's not like it impacts safety.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 99):
Quote:
Kingfisher Airlines' debt levels are at a peak, and there is no room for further debt, the State Bank of India Chairman, Mr Pratip Chaudhuri, said here on Monday.

He says this a couple times a week. I can't tell you how many times SBI has declared "no more debt," just to promptly grant debt.



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User currently offlineBLRAviation From India, joined Feb 2009, 362 posts, RR: 14
Reply 101, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10274 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 100):
What is the need for a DGCA person on this committee anyway?? It's not like it impacts safety.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 100):
He says this a couple times a week. I can't tell you how many times SBI has declared "no more debt," just to promptly grant debt.

Both articles which demonstrate the politics, compulsions, and shades of grey I was referring to   ?

But do read the SBI article. The Chairman goes on to explain why banks cannot take a hard line on KFA. They have to recover their money and killing KFA will not achieve that.



I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 102, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10288 times:

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 101):

Both articles which demonstrate the politics, compulsions, and shades of grey I was referring to

yep   

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 101):

But do read the SBI article. The Chairman goes on to explain why banks cannot take a hard line on KFA. They have to recover their money and killing KFA will not achieve that.

Kingfisher is already dead. It's not theirs to kill any more.



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User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 103, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10215 times:
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Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 96):
For instance, you may be aware, the Japanese invested heavily in Thailand for manufacturing, especially auto. Both Honda and Toyota were major forces behind the India-Thailand FTA and both these companies get lots of parts from Thailand at negligible duty.

Thank you for the informative post. Welcome to my RU list. (I had to find people who quit a.net to make room!)

quote=BLRAviation,reply=98]If I may suggest, it is important to understand economic linkages and drivers. Also at the same time very crucial to understand politics, political compulsions, to get an appreciation of what happens in India. There is no black or white here only infinite shades of grey. [/quote]
Always key. Hence why discussing bilaterals it is important to discuss the other aspects as well as aviation. e.g., you noted Japanese automotive, but I know the Koreans followed Japan in Thailand not only for costs, but it was tied to air travel rights. India and Korea would benefit highly by updating their bilateral and that is likely to mean more flight rights to/from Korea for both sides.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 96):
Dr. Devi Shetty has perfected techniques for heart surgery on a mass scale.

He is famous for medical management too. He is the doctor most credited in figuring out how to apply 'economy of scale' to medicine. I'm curious how the 'health city' concept works out.

Now I chose to quote this as it is *very* related to air travel. Medical tourism is going to be critically important. (My sister worked the field for a few years, so I might be biased). EK has tried to promote medical tourism to Dubai, but they do not have a "star" such as Dr. Devi Shetty who broke through the cost structure. Thus, they do not have the large draw and associated free PR.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 96):
The Japanese are wanting to develop a super highway corridor between Bangalore and Chennai investment runs in to billions of dollars.

This is one thing India must do is spend more on ground transportation. I've read a bit of the costs of moving goods around India. Some regions are good, others not so good. When I see the money going to AI, I cannot help but think there are better options to spend money on transportation.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 102):
Kingfisher is already dead. It's not theirs to kill any more.

Now it is a question if IT is worth more as the small functioning entity it is today or liquidated. There is no way to get the money out that is owed, so either a massive cut in debt for equity or IT is shut down.  

I'm curious as to the way forward. I see the articles claiming IT could be saved by foreign investment, but I simply do not see the ROI. It would have to be a case where the Indian banks get something for their debts (at most 20%, IMHO) with the foreign partner taking control. But there is too much in the political area that must be done; I think IT is doomed.  
Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 98):
Just see this story on a committee set up to rationalise Air India routes. http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...onomy/logistics/article3466290.ece there is NO ONE from Air India on the committee.

What?!?   

Ok, separate topic, back to the bilateral rights I found a link, from yesterday, that has the following:
"Indian private carriers have submitted requests with the Government to use an additional 130,000 seats per week from existing bilateral entitlements on the Indian side as outlined below:

SpiceJet: 66,000 weekly seats;
Jet Airways: 24,000 weekly seats;
IndiGo: 20,000 weekly seats;
Kingfisher: 20,000 weekly seats.
Some of these applications have recently been granted.
"
http://www.centreforaviation.com/ana...uld-join-star-a380-may-debut-74792

So it looks like the process isn't automatic. I wonder how old the applications are? I suspect the Kingfisher request has been 'overcome by events,' so that implies a still slow process. I'm simply trying to find the real process for an Indian airline to acquire bilateral rights and how much the delay is due to the GOI rather than airline demand.

I also have to agree with the article's note: "At present, India does not have a clear strategy with respect to bilaterals..."
India needs to figure out their bilateral strategy and act on it. It has been a hodge podge of 'this industry needs access to that market, so we'll modify that bilateral' without a clear set of goals other than to protect AI. They need a real strategy to promote industrial growth.

Lightsaber

PS. Late edit. IT's bank accounts were frozen. Separate thread by whiplash for detailed discussion:
Kingfisher Airlines: Bank Accounts Frozen (by whiplash May 29 2012 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2012-05-29 10:12:32]


Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10191 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 103):

Now it is a question if IT is worth more as the small functioning entity it is today or liquidated.

Definitely it would be better off it if was liquidated - they are losing money on ops as this "small functioning entity" - money that is being wasted.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 103):

I'm curious as to the way forward. I see the articles claiming IT could be saved by foreign investment, but I simply do not see the ROI. It would have to be a case where the Indian banks get something for their debts (at most 20%, IMHO) with the foreign partner taking control. But there is too much in the political area that must be done; I think IT is doomed.

I think this hope about FDI has been off the mark to start with. No investor is going to want to touch the mess that is IT.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 103):

So it looks like the process isn't automatic.

I am not aware of any government process that is automatic. Normally, somewhere between 50 and 50,000,000 (exaggerating of course  )committees are created to study this, that, and the other. Then the decision will be released long after the original request was even relevant. Welcome to the government of India  

This hurts AI far more than the privates, because every single move AI makes is subject to these committees, while the privates only have to deal with it for government functions.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 103):
I'm simply trying to find the real process for an Indian airline to acquire bilateral rights and how much the delay is due to the GOI rather than airline demand.

GoI delays everything, and then once the approvals finally show up, the airline delays everything.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 103):

I also have to agree with the article's note: "At present, India does not have a clear strategy with respect to bilaterals..."
India needs to figure out their bilateral strategy and act on it. It has been a hodge podge of 'this industry needs access to that market, so we'll modify that bilateral' without a clear set of goals other than to protect AI. They need a real strategy to promote industrial growth.

I agree that India has no strategy w/r/t bilaterals. I disagree that protecting AI is the priority you make it out to be. There have been many allegations and widely spread rumors about selling bilaterals (for black money) - your typical corruption. The pockets of politicians is always a far more important priority than Air India will ever be. If somebody actually cared about the airline, it would be in a far better state right now.



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User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 105, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10171 times:
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Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 104):
I disagree that protecting AI is the priority you make it out to be.

The issue is its on on/off type of priority. For example, for the chemical and pharma industries in India, it was critical to expand to the current bilateral with Dubai. That one was at the cost of AI.

However another bilateral that should be expanded, with Korea, has stalled on the air service agreement. I don't even know if its still being negotiated. That hasn't helped or hurt AI other than some jobs went to Thailand in the meantime. (But the Thailand-India bilateral with Korean manufacturing might have made it a wash...

Due to the lack of strategy, India signs bilaterals in a rush and then constricts trade by not signing updated bilaterals. For example, the new Myanmar bilaterals (on the WSJ, but WSJ links do not work on a.net).

Another link:
http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/...5/29/india-reaches-out-to-myanmar/

But the WSJ link was better as it noted the competition with China for rights to the oil fields and such.

I'm trying to find details of the air service agreement. Other than a brief mention of 5th freedom rights for Indian carriers, I haven't been able to find anything.

Other nations have a strategy with bilaterals: Korea, UAE(sometimes by city/state), Japan, China, etc. It would help Indian aviation to have that strategy.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 106, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10217 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 105):
It would help Indian aviation to have that strategy.

It would help the Indian economy overall. The likelyhood of GoI suddenly adopting a bilateral strategy sadly is probably on the low side though...



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User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 107, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 10001 times:

IIRC, there was a plan by AI to bring back CD as an LCC. Is that still on?

User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9982 times:

Quoting golfradio (Reply 103):
IIRC, there was a plan by AI to bring back CD as an LCC. Is that still on?

Is the plan on? Who knows.

Has it been implemented? Not really.

CD is working as a regional feeder right now, which quite honestly is exactly what is should work as.



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User currently offlineBLRAviation From India, joined Feb 2009, 362 posts, RR: 14
Reply 109, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9981 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 99):
Welcome to my RU list. (I had to find people who quit a.net to make room!)

Thanks so very much. I am honoured.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 99):
Now it is a question if IT is worth more as the small functioning entity it is today or liquidated. There is no way to get the money out that is owed, so either a massive cut in debt for equity or IT is shut down.

Almost everyone looks at KFA only in its current form and whether a buyer will get returns considering a large debt. Essentially, anyone who invests in KFA is getting a direct entry in to the huge Indian market. I cannot think of too many countries that allow foreign airlines access to their domestic market. Even the US and UK have very strict ownership rules. The question we should ask is, what is the price of access to the Indian market.

As a hypothetical, Etihad has already invested in Air Berlin and has a Europe network that will now feed in to the gateways EY serves. Similarly by investing in KFA it get access to an airline that would cover not just domestic India but offer limited international services from India and cover the Arabian sea India-GCC and Bay of Bengal India-ASEAN. Also in one stroke EY doubles it bi-lateral seat capacity by getting AUH based rights and access to India based rights, but the issue of seat capacity is more beneficial to EK not EY.

On the issue of bi-lateral rights, airlines will ask for the moon, expecting to get the earth, and will ultimately deploy a few grains of sand.

[Edited 2012-05-30 08:20:13]


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User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 110, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9930 times:
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Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 105):
The question we should ask is, what is the price of access to the Indian market.

You make a good point. I still do not see paying in full. But the banks would do better with a partial payment. You make arguments that validate a larger partial payment... However, it always comes down to ROI.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 105):
As a hypothetical, Etihad has already invested in Air Berlin and has a Europe network that will now feed in to the gateways EY serves.

Eithad would be able to utilize the feed better than anyone.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 105):
but the issue of seat capacity is more beneficial to EK not EY.

You point is valid. However, EK would not benefit as much as the press would be horrid.

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 105):
n the issue of bi-lateral rights, airlines will ask for the moon, expecting to get the earth, and will ultimately deploy a few grains of sand.

The issue is the GOI holding onto too many bilateral rights. If they only get sand, that will hurt the Indian economy.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinevtnyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 111, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9938 times:

While at JFK on 5/28, heard KU 102, JFK-LHR-KWI also being announced as AI 6xxx code share flight. Guess it's to accommodate the passenger bumped due to the strike. Is this one time deal for the current period? Any other stations with similar arrangements?


First Flight, PA001 DEL-FRA-LHR-JFK; Dream- JFK-COK on a B6 787
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9931 times:

Air India has codeshare agreements with:

LH
SQ
OZ
KU
OS
SA
SU
UL
LX
ET
TK
MK

These are long term agreements.



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User currently offlinevtnyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9927 times:

Ah, I get it now... The code share is only for the JFK-LHR and LHR-JFK sectors on days 2, 4, 6 to compensate for the withdrawal of service on the historic BOM-LHR-JFK and DEL-LHR-JFK routes.


First Flight, PA001 DEL-FRA-LHR-JFK; Dream- JFK-COK on a B6 787
User currently offlinegoacom From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9896 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 104):
I agree that India has no strategy w/r/t bilaterals. I disagree that protecting AI is the priority you make it out to be. There have been many allegations and widely spread rumors about selling bilaterals (for black money) - your typical corruption. The pockets of politicians is always a far more important priority than Air India will ever be. If somebody actually cared about the airline, it would be in a far better state right now.

I agree. Which is yet another reason why AI would be better off if it were privatized, rather than being managed by politicians. However, since there is no hope of AI being privatized, the second best hope is that it will simply become irrelevant.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 115, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9803 times:

In the absence of additional capacity from a new bilateral, EK will be forced to consider codeshares with Indian carriers to increase capacity.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...d-traffic/articleshow/13678892.cms

Quote:
Air India & Kingfisher Airlines crisis: Emirates grabs 20% share of outbound traffic.

The airline, which operates 185 flights per week, more than any other foreign carrier, has garnered a 20% share of the total outbound traffic over the past year, according to industry sources, edging out competitors in usurping the void created by the curtailed overseas operations of Air India, the actual national carrier, and debt-laden Kingfisher Airlines.


User currently offlinegoacom From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 9736 times:

A recent article about Air India. Old news to most of us here.....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...amliner-debut-corporate-india.html

I think the subsidy issue is critical to the profitability of the domestic airlines. I was just looking at domestic fares between Mumbai and a popular tourist destination in India and the fares offered by AI are less than half those offered by the LC carriers such as SpiceJet and Indigo and a third that of Jet Airways. I have typically found fares for AI to be cheaper than the LC carriers, but this is just my anecdotal evidence. Sometimes, I managed to get bookings on "full" AI flights with much difficulty, only to find that the aircraft was half empty.


‘Driven From Top’

India’s national auditor said in a report on the Ministry of Civil Aviation in 2011 that the merger was “ill-timed” and was decided without considering the difficulties involved in areas such as staff integration. The decision was “driven from the top,” said the Comptroller and Auditor General of India.

“The integration has been badly managed,” said CAPA’s Somaia. “The resolution of such human-resources issues is central to Air India’s turnaround.”

The carrier, once India’s biggest, has slipped to fourth- place behind newer private carriers, Jet Airways (India) Ltd. (JETIN), IndiGo and SpiceJet Ltd. (SJET), which have lower costs and fewer staff. The airline had 17.6 percent of the market in April, according to data published by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation.


Worst Performance

The carrier may also post a loss of 70 billion rupees in the year ending March, the worst performance nationwide, CAPA said in a report last week. Air India probably lost 78.5 billion rupees last fiscal year, Minister Singh said in a written reply in parliament on April 25.

The government has injected 72 billion rupees into Air India since April 1, 2009. That support has weighed on other Indian carriers including Jet and billionaire Vijay Mallya’s Kingfisher Airlines Ltd. (KAIR), which have made losses while competing with the state-subsidized company.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 117, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 9709 times:

Quoting goacom (Reply 113):

‘Driven From Top’

India’s national auditor said in a report on the Ministry of Civil Aviation in 2011 that the merger was “ill-timed” and was decided without considering the difficulties involved in areas such as staff integration. The decision was “driven from the top,” said the Comptroller and Auditor General of India.

“The integration has been badly managed,” said CAPA’s Somaia. “The resolution of such human-resources issues is central to Air India’s turnaround.”

The carrier, once India’s biggest, has slipped to fourth- place behind newer private carriers, Jet Airways (India) Ltd. (JETIN), IndiGo and SpiceJet Ltd. (SJET), which have lower costs and fewer staff. The airline had 17.6 percent of the market in April, according to data published by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation.

Attributing all of this to the merger is not accurate - the entire operating climate of India has changed drastically from even a few years ago. That said, nobody can disagree that the merger was horribly done. We have the benefit of hindsight now - at the time, it seemed like a good idea.

Quoting goacom (Reply 113):


Worst Performance

The carrier may also post a loss of 70 billion rupees in the year ending March, the worst performance nationwide, CAPA said in a report last week. Air India probably lost 78.5 billion rupees last fiscal year, Minister Singh said in a written reply in parliament on April 25.

The government has injected 72 billion rupees into Air India since April 1, 2009. That support has weighed on other Indian carriers including Jet and billionaire Vijay Mallya’s Kingfisher Airlines Ltd. (KAIR), which have made losses while competing with the state-subsidized company.

Take anything CAPA says with a bucketful of salt.

Air India went from profitability just a few years ago to massive losses for the last few years. In part due to the merger. In part due to operating climate changes.

Regardless, blaming the entirety of IT and 9W's problems on AI is a dubious assertion at best. Every airline has it's own share of mismanagement. Would they do better without AI? Definitely. Less competition is always good for profitability. But if they were better managed, could they still have made profit? Once again, the answer is definitely.

Quoting goacom (Reply 113):

I think the subsidy issue is critical to the profitability of the domestic airlines. I was just looking at domestic fares between Mumbai and a popular tourist destination in India and the fares offered by AI are less than half those offered by the LC carriers such as SpiceJet and Indigo and a third that of Jet Airways. I have typically found fares for AI to be cheaper than the LC carriers, but this is just my anecdotal evidence. Sometimes, I managed to get bookings on "full" AI flights with much difficulty, only to find that the aircraft was half empty.

Well, your experience is very different than mine. AI is my default carrier, and I'm usually paying a 500-700 rupee premium to fly with them over an LCC. I agree that the yield management systems used at AI (and quite honestly every other Indian carrier too) leave a lot to be desired. But to take one example of AI being the cheapest and extrapolate that across the network simply doesn't work.



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User currently offlinegoacom From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9561 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 117):
Attributing all of this to the merger is not accurate - the entire operating climate of India has changed drastically from even a few years ago. That said, nobody can disagree that the merger was horribly done. We have the benefit of hindsight now - at the time, it seemed like a good idea.

I would definitely not say that all of AI's problems are attributable to the merger. Far from it. The fundamental issue is that it is run by bureaucrats who treat it as an extension of the government rather than a commercial entity that should be providing a service to its customers. As far as hindsight is concerned, providing excuses for fresh decisions, several years after the merger just does not cut it with me. But then, AI's management knows that it can always rely on the government for handouts, because it is part of the government! Besides billions of dollars in bailouts, it can get the most favorable financial terms for aircraft as it is backed by the credit of India, gets priority slots etc and still continue to lose market share on top of that!

Some 10 years ago, we heard the same story....

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?206520

Quoting goacom (Reply 116):
Well, your experience is very different than mine. AI is my default carrier, and I'm usually paying a 500-700 rupee premium to fly with them over an LCC. I agree that the yield management systems used at AI (and quite honestly every other Indian carrier too) leave a lot to be desired. But to take one example of AI being the cheapest and extrapolate that across the network simply doesn't work.

Fair enough and I did qualify this as saying that it was my anecdotal experience over the past decade from travelling between the US and India as well as within India.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 119, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9467 times:
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Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 116):
Kingfisher lost %u20B91,151.5 crores (~US$200 million) for the 4th quarter ending March 31st, and %u20B92,328 crores (~US$415 million) for the entire fiscal year.

Where are they getting the cash?!? As your link noted, who in their right mind would loan IT money?

Quoting goacom (Reply 114):
Besides billions of dollars in bailouts, it can get the most favorable financial terms for aircraft as it is backed by the credit of India

The credit of India is BBB- (lowest investment grade) and S&P has warned of a possible downgrade. Too many of the practices of the GOI rely on an investment grade bond rating and that is really going to impact AI.

Quoting goacom (Reply 114):
Some 10 years ago, we heard the same story....

What's funny is that over the last 15 years we've heard the same excuses. AI must re-invent itself with a fast adapting culture. That means a faster method of ordering aircraft, trimming un-needed staff, improving the customer experience, etc. I've seen on a.net in relation to India many complaints on EK. But the reality is that when EK has a problem, they focus on solving it and do so.

If an airline is slow to adapt, that means it is about 1% less efficient per year they are 'behind the curve.' AI had profit in the years others had PROFIT. The fact AI is having issues as the #1 airline in India just went to #6... tells us something.

One problem for AI is the collapse of IT just proved there is now enough competition for any airline to fail and the economy in India will recover.

Speaking of AI, have they accepted the 787s yet? The purchase contract had a cap on payments. Asking for more than the contract might or might not work. At the full penalties being asked, Boeing would do better to say 'take it or leave it.' Perhaps a little more in payments is worth it, but only if it is discounting future payments to Boeing.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinevin2basketball From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9451 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 113):
Regardless, blaming the entirety of IT and 9W's problems on AI is a dubious assertion at best. Every airline has it's own share of mismanagement. Would they do better without AI? Definitely. Less competition is always good for profitability. But if they were better managed, could they still have made profit? Once again, the answer is definitely.

The numbers say that if Air India priced like a private carrier (i.e. without GoI backing them so that Air India would have to price closer to costs) , then SG and 9W would have made profits in Q4.


User currently offlinegoacom From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9427 times:

Looks like AI is joining IT in "delaying" salaries to its employees!

Air India strike losses to cause delay in staff's salary payments
http://articles.economictimes.indiat...air-india-pilots-industrial-action


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13271 posts, RR: 100
Reply 122, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9414 times:
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Quoting goacom (Reply 117):

Looks like AI is joining IT in "delaying" salaries to its employees!

That isn't new. They're using the strike as an excuse not to make good on that bill. I personally think the AI employees have a far better chance of seeing their money than IT employees.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 123, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9243 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 122):
I personally think the AI employees have a far better chance of seeing their money than IT employees.

Undoubtly......thanks to the Taxpayers....



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 124, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9176 times:

Civil aviation ministry takes steps on Air India-Indian Airlines integration.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...tegration/articleshow/13712357.cms

Quote:
The report, prepared by a four-member committee headed by former Supreme Court judge Justice DM Dharmadhikari, aims at integrating the manpower of erstwhile Indian Airlines and Air India, which were merged into a single company in 2007.

While salaries of any category of employees will not go down, the carrier will cut costs by other measures. "Measures such as VRS and flying allowance for hours actually flown will facilitate savings. Only the spouse and children of employees will be able to avail of free tickets," a ministry official said.

At present, a section of the employees receives allowances for a fixed number of hours. Moreover, the number of dependants that are entitled for free tickets are very large.

The annual wage bill of Air India is about Rs 3,000 crore, 80% of which is bagged by only a fifth of the large workforce.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 125, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8991 times:

Indian Pilots Guild ready to set aside demands if recognition is restored.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...-restored/articleshow/13742012.cms

Quote:
The Indian Pilots Guild (IPG), leading the Air India pilots' strike, today said it was ready to set aside all demands to end the strike if the government restored recognition to the union.

"As Civil Aviation Minister Ajit Singh has assured us that our demands will be looked into, we all are ready to set aside our other demands and resume duties forthwith. But then we want the government to re-recognise the union to enable us represent the pilots during deliberations on the Dharmadhikari Committee report," an IPG spokesperson told PTI here.

The IPG was de-recognised and services of 101 pilots were terminated after they started reporting sick from May seven. There has so far been no official response to the statement, but sources said the IPG has already gone to court to seek restoration of its recognition.

Singh has repeatedly assured the pilots that all their demands would be looked into only after they ended their "illegal" agitation unconditionally. "Their strike is illegal as no notice was served... Employees should take their strike back unconditionally and then all their demands will be looked into," Singh had said yesterday.


User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 851 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8903 times:

Can anyone assist in advising which AI A310s and 747s have been stored in DEL and BOM. I was there in Fabruary and AI had a lot of aircraft in storage (especially on BOM).

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 127, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8816 times:

Noticed the Ex Aryan air A310 stored there yesterday at BOM.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinevin2basketball From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8752 times:

Inventory on Jet Airways' Brussels-New York has been zeroed out from 11th September, 2012.

Flight still appears in the schedules, but it looks like it has been cancelled.

My hope and suggestion is that they replace it with BRU-ORD, followed by a BLR-BRU-SFO.

In fact, back in April I suggested that Jet drop this route.

Quote:
Brussels Airlines is already starting a daily Brussels-New York JFK flight to connect into their own African network, so Jet could drop the Brussels-JFK segment of their flight from Delhi, and instead replace it with Chicago O’Hare (while Brussels-New York is a larger market, it also has much more competition). This route would continue to be served with an Airbus A330-200, while Mumbai-Brussels-Newark and Chennai-Brussels-Toronto will continue with their current equipment. Additionally, Bangalore-Brussels-San Francisco would be added daily using A330-200s.


User currently onlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 129, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8526 times:

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 124):

Quote:
Brussels Airlines is already starting a daily Brussels-New York JFK flight to connect into their own African network, so Jet could drop the Brussels-JFK segment of their flight from Delhi, and instead replace it with Chicago O’Hare (while Brussels-New York is a larger market, it also has much more competition). This route would continue to be served with an Airbus A330-200, while Mumbai-Brussels-Newark and Chennai-Brussels-Toronto will continue with their current equipment. Additionally, Bangalore-Brussels-San Francisco would be added daily using A330-200s.

Have these new routes (DEL-BRU-ORD, BLR-BRU-SFO) been officially given by 9W yet, because I can't recall they did.
Also isn't doing SFO westwards kind of a long route, what happened to restarting PVG-SFO instead?


Also what are the further developments regarding the 9W expansion (and joining Star), since the last time they expressed they wanted to?



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8503 times:

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 125):

Have these new routes (DEL-BRU-ORD, BLR-BRU-SFO) been officially given by 9W yet, because I can't recall they did.

No, those routes are just speculation.

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 125):
Also isn't doing SFO westwards kind of a long route, what happened to restarting PVG-SFO instead?

Not really. The difference is small in the grand scheme of things. The fact that 9W already has an established hub in BRU is very helpful if they decide to launch BLR-BRU-SFO.

If the SFO service was eastbound, it would be through HKG, not PVG.

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 125):


Also what are the further developments regarding the 9W expansion (and joining Star), since the last time they expressed they wanted to?

They have yet to express anything. All the stuff about 9W joining star and creating a MUC scissor hub was speculation on the part of a news reporter.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineFlying Belgian From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 2396 posts, RR: 9
Reply 131, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8470 times:
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It'd be a very very tight timing frame if 9W ever decides to launch a BRU-SFO-BRU flight.

You need two planes fully dedicated to fly a daily Europe-California flight.

Now, if JFK's cancellation is confirmed, I'd see EWR returning to a daily 77W or maybe an A333.

Let's not forget the rather short lived BOM-PVG-SFO experience on the 77W three years ago...



Life is great at 41.000 feet...
User currently onlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 132, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8459 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 126):
They have yet to express anything. All the stuff about 9W joining star and creating a MUC scissor hub was speculation on the part of a news reporter.

Joining Star doesn't necessarily have to mean move to LH hubs, the fact that Star's Brussels airlines is at BRU covering Rest of Europe and many African routes mean that 9W can benefit from staying at BRU and joining Star at the same time.

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 127):
Let's not forget the rather short lived BOM-PVG-SFO experience on the 77W three years ago...

But wasn't that due to the economic crunch around 2007?
77Ws would actually help the BRU-SFO route.... and maybe later the 333s. Jet can really develop the BRU-US connections, but I just don't understand what's really the deal with the news about 9W and Germany popping up every time. There has never been an official statement on that regard and speculating about the truth is getting boring now.



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8459 times:

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 127):
It'd be a very very tight timing frame if 9W ever decides to launch a BRU-SFO-BRU flight.

It would definitely be tight, but it would be doable. And the loads and yields are there.

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 127):

Now, if JFK's cancellation is confirmed, I'd see EWR returning to a daily 77W or maybe an A333.

Yes, I wouldn't be surprised to see an EWR upgauge.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineBLRAviation From India, joined Feb 2009, 362 posts, RR: 14
Reply 134, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8238 times:

Jet Airways website is showing BRU-JFK flights operating beyond 11/Sep. I tried to do a booking and it even gave fares, and shows Jet A330 operating the flight 9W225/226.

Flight Information
Flight: 9W226
Operated By: Jet Airways
Departure: Brussels (BRU)
Terminal:
Date: Thu 13 Sep 12
Time: 10:05
Arrival: New York (JFK)
Terminal: TERMINAL 8
Date: Thu 13 Sep 12
Time: 12:15
Meal: Lunch / Snack
Stops: 0
Duration: 08h 10m
Aircraft Type: Airbus 330

BRU&arr=JFK" target="_blank">http://secure1.jetairways.com/JetFli...226&date=13SEP2012&dep=BRU&arr=JFK



I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8229 times:

Yeah, it's been reloaded into GDS. Another flip-flop by 9W.

First BAH, then KWI, then SHJ, and now JFK. This is ridiculous.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinevtnyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 136, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8044 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 131):
First BAH, then KWI, then SHJ, and now JFK. This is ridiculous.

ummm, could it not be just regular maintenance? There never was a press release announcing the cancellations. The anet community, and in particular the Indian anutters, are so tuned in to the doings of the airlines in India so much that they are jumping to conclusions every time some one even so much as .........



First Flight, PA001 DEL-FRA-LHR-JFK; Dream- JFK-COK on a B6 787
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 137, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8045 times:

Quoting vtnyc (Reply 132):

ummm, could it not be just regular maintenance? There never was a press release announcing the cancellations. The anet community, and in particular the Indian anutters, are so tuned in to the doings of the airlines in India so much that they are jumping to conclusions every time some one even so much as .........

It's not cheap to load/unload schedules from GDS. Most airlines don't do it until they are sure of the schedule.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineBLRAviation From India, joined Feb 2009, 362 posts, RR: 14
Reply 138, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7928 times:

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 125):
Also isn't doing SFO westwards kind of a long route, what happened to restarting PVG-SFO instead?

Actually, hard as it is to believe the shortest connections between India and SFO, most especially from BLR and MAA, the two main Indian points feeding SFO, is on LH and EK. The ASEAN carriers and CX/KA do not offer good connections, especially on the return.



I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
User currently offlinevikramv1 From India, joined Jul 2011, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 139, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7869 times:

So the latest the past hour on two fronts are as follows:

The Aviation minister has told IPG basically to get lost if they want any terms to get back to work. i.e. no pre-conditions to return back. AI has also announced partial rollback of its suspensions due to strikes.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article3496442.ece

AI also is reported that they will take 3 787 deliveries this month. Does this mean the compensation issue is sorted???
http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/0...india-boeing-idINDEE85503V20120606


User currently offlineAirIndia From United Arab Emirates, joined Jan 2001, 1644 posts, RR: 1
Reply 140, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7806 times:

Quoting vikramv1 (Reply 135):
The Aviation minister has told IPG basically to get lost if they want any terms to get back to work

Thats some solid stance. He shd be made PM immediately..........

It is time Air India has someone who can standup to such ransoms.....


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 141, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7768 times:

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 136):

Thats some solid stance. He shd be made PM immediately..........

It is time Air India has someone who can standup to such ransoms.....

You're joking, right? He has caused hundreds of crores of damage to Air India.

The job of management is to stand up to the unions. The job of the Minister of Civil Aviation is to resolve the situation as fast as possible. Not rubber stamp the management and ensure that no solution will be in sight.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10765 posts, RR: 9
Reply 142, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7753 times:

Quoting vikramv1 (Reply 135):
AI also is reported that they will take 3 787 deliveries this month.

AI claimed that Boeing should pay because the planes are late and that damages business. Now AI didnt want to take them until Boeing pays compensation. Makes not much sense to me. Either getting them is a pressing issue or not. Especially as they have surplus 777s at the same time.

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 122):
Can anyone assist in advising which AI A310s and 747s have been stored in DEL and BOM. I was there in Fabruary and AI had a lot of aircraft in storage (especially on BOM).

Last time I was in BOM I saw a 777LR stored (remote stand, engines covered) and a 744 (the one wfu after engine fire, partially parted out as much as I could see). Two other 744s I saw active, one at the gate, another taking off.

Is the deal signed to lease 777LRs to AC?


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 143, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7740 times:

Quoting na (Reply 138):

AI claimed that Boeing should pay because the planes are late and that damages business. Now AI didnt want to take them until Boeing pays compensation. Makes not much sense to me. Either getting them is a pressing issue or not. Especially as they have surplus 777s at the same time.

It makes plenty of sense to me. Getting 787s ASAP is very important to AI. However, once delivery is taken, AI loses almost all leverage over compensation. And the compensation is more important than a few extra weeks of operation.

Quoting na (Reply 138):

Last time I was in BOM I saw a 777LR stored (remote stand, engines covered) and a 744 (the one wfu after engine fire, partially parted out as much as I could see). Two other 744s I saw active, one at the gate, another taking off.

The 77L was probably undergoing maintenance, because none are stored right now. There are 4 744s stored, to be used for charters and Hajj.

Quoting na (Reply 138):

Is the deal signed to lease 777LRs to AC?

The deal fell through because neither airline was willing to pay to reconfigure the aircraft.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10765 posts, RR: 9
Reply 144, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7733 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 139):
The 77L was probably undergoing maintenance, because none are stored right now. There are 4 744s stored, to be used for charters and Hajj.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 139):
The deal fell through because neither airline was willing to pay to reconfigure the aircraft.

I know most 744s have been removed from daily service but are all kept in ready-to-fly condition. Arent two 744s reserved for government flights?
As for the 77Ls, does it mean, once the 787s are being delivered some of the 777s are stored?