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KL Gives MIA Another Go  
User currently offlineklmcedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 812 posts, RR: 22
Posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13781 times:

KLM will again be serving Miami coming winterseason .
I've lost track of how many attempts they have undertaken now with this route.
Maybe KLM decided to go the DFW way with this route and make it seasonal.
Route to be operated with MD11, 5 weekly

I hope it will last now , I love this destination.

Source: www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl

[Edited 2012-05-11 22:31:43 by SA7700]

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13860 times:

I hate to make this into a NW DC-9 type thread, but how long is KLM keeping the MD-11? I guess I am kind of surprised this route hasn't been replaced by a 777 or A330. Still great to see the MD-11 operating into MIA though by a variety of carriers.

User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2493 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13846 times:

Quoting klmcedric (Thread starter):
KLM will again be serving Miami coming winterseason .
I've lost track of how many attempts they have undertaken now with this route.
Maybe KLM decided to go the DFW way with this route and make it seasonal.
Route to be operated with MD11, 5 weekly

KL intended to return in winter since the get go. This is nothing new. It was a seasonal cut.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineklmcedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 812 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13801 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
KL intended to return in winter since the get go. This is nothing new. It was a seasonal cut.

Thenoflyzone

I didn't know that, thought they cut the route for good.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13736 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
This is nothing new. It was a seasonal cut.

Actually, Miami was planned to be indefinitely suspended, but the suspension was made seasonal afterwards. At this point it is not clear whether AMS MIA will be flown just for W12 or whether the operation will be sustained year-round. If MIA ends up as a seasonal destination, it would be the perfect dual with the DFW operation.


User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2493 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13732 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
Actually, Miami was planned to be indefinitely suspended

yeah...for like a week...



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13580 times:

Yea, they announced it was cut once again and shortly after stated MIA would go seasonal. This was months ago.


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13491 times:

Looks like the MD11 is coming from the SFO route as SFO will be a 332 during during the winter season.


John@SFO
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13457 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 1):
I hate to make this into a NW DC-9 type thread, but how long is KLM keeping the MD-11?

The MD11 will be retired sooner than previously anticipated. I don't know the exact schedule but I though their lives at KLM were shortened by 2 years.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 1):
I guess I am kind of surprised this route hasn't been replaced by a 777 or A330.

You shouldn't be surprised. AMS-MIA is more leisure oriented and these leisure oriented destinations get the MD11. Moreover the 777s are very busy and the 330s also have a busy schedule in W12.


User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2490 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 10774 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 1):
I hate to make this into a NW DC-9 type thread, but how long is KLM keeping the MD-11? I guess I am kind of surprised this route hasn't been replaced by a 777 or A330

Very soon, the first one, PH-KCH is expected to leave the fleet any time now with the arrival of the new A330-300's, and most probably the KCI will be retired this year as well. From what i understand they will eventually fly with 4 MD-11's for a while (probably untill the first 787 or any new A330's will arrive) with 2 back- ups. Martinair also returned theire first MD-11 to the lessor (although stored at AMS, full cs) and will eventually become an all 747 operator.


User currently offlineCargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1271 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 10684 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 9):
and will eventually become an all 747 operator.

I don't know about that. The MD11 offers more flexibility than the 747, but KL does have 747s that could go to MP once they are removed from pax service and go essentially directly into freighter service. MP is already operating KL's pure freighters.

But think the 777F or A332F might, and just to be clear this is speculation, have a future at MP.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3263 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 10458 times:

Quoting legacyins (Reply 7):
Looks like the MD11 is coming from the SFO route as SFO will be a 332 during during the winter season

Makes complete sense, MIA is obviously a bigger market in the winter, and the 332 is a much more fuel efficient aircraft for a longer route.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32788 posts, RR: 72
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 10186 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
Actually, Miami was planned to be indefinitely suspended, but the suspension was made seasonal afterwards. At this point it is not clear whether AMS MIA will be flown just for W12 or whether the operation will be sustained year-round. If MIA ends up as a seasonal destination, it would be the perfect dual with the DFW operation.

With the JBA having eliminated MIALHR and MCOCDG, while also using a much smaller aircraft on MIACDG coming this summer, I would not be surprised if it goes back to year-round. Loads are good and, while the local market is not known for being high-yielding, it's average fare is somehow in excess of $800 each way these days. I am not sure why because the market is driven purely by Dutch tourists.



a.
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9927 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 9):
From what i understand they will eventually fly with 4 MD-11's for a while (probably untill the first 787 or any new A330's will arrive) with 2 back- ups.

That will be as soon as next winter, with only YUL, MIA, HAV, AUA, BON, CUR and IKA left on the MD11 schedule so far.


User currently offlineCheco77 From Peru, joined Oct 2004, 1345 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8042 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 13):
That will be as soon as next winter, with only YUL, MIA, HAV, AUA, BON, CUR and IKA left on the MD11 schedule so far.

What will PTY get? A332?



Czech Boeing lover living in Lima
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8816 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7940 times:
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Quoting Checo77 (Reply 14):
What will PTY get? A332?

AMS-PTY will operate 5x weekly with the B772 and 2x weekly with the B77W. The AMS-UIO-GYE-AMS route will continue to operate with the B777 and will operate 3x weekly with the B772 and 2x weekly with the B77W. The AMS-LIM route will operate 4x weekly with the B772 and 3x weekly with the B77W.


User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 532 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7549 times:

It seems kinda odd that everyone here from (more ore less) within KL was convinced the route was gone permanently, while others knew from the start it would become a seasonal route. Puzzling.

Anyway, good to see the comeback. As long as KL can keep the frequency up and the loads at 90+ percent it could do o.k.


User currently offlinemdutch From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 146 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7478 times:

The article on luchtvaartnieuws.nl mentions that KLM confirmed offering flights AMS-MIA from end of october BUT at the same time said the flights could be operated by partner airlines..... Decision to be made later this month....

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3263 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6449 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 13):
That will be as soon as next winter, with only YUL, MIA, HAV, AUA, BON, CUR and IKA left on the MD11 schedule so far.

What are they using for the JRO & DAR circle trip now? The 330 or 777. This route was an M11 for a lot of years.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6121 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 18):
What are they using for the JRO & DAR circle trip now? The 330 or 777. This route was an M11 for a lot of years.

They use the A330 and 777 (both 772 and 77W) during S12 and A330-300 next Winter.


User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3354 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 5789 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
KL intended to return in winter since the get go. This is nothing new. It was a seasonal cut.

I was under this impression as well. I'm glad to have confirmation that we'll be seeing the big blue MD-11 at MIA for at least one more season.

I remember the buzz surrounding their inaugural flight, which was last March within a few days of DL launching MIA-LHR (which has since been discontinued). It was the weekend before the Ultra Music Festival and the first flight was basically a party in the sky. The aircraft was PH-KCC, and I was able to get a model MD-11 signed by the flight and cabin crew.


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Photo © GGauthier



User currently onlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9822 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week ago) and read 5464 times:

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 9):
(probably untill the first 787 or any new A330's will arrive)

I assume you mean the A330 as it will take quite a while before KL will receive their first 787 (the 787-900 test model isn't even built yet)  

A388


User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5286 times:

It's interesting that from a somewhat secondary Central and Northern European point of view (of course Italy, Spain and Portugal are a different matter) Swiss can make it work year-round and KL still struggles around it.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32788 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5183 times:

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 22):

It's interesting that from a somewhat secondary Central and Northern European point of view (of course Italy, Spain and Portugal are a different matter) Swiss can make it work year-round and KL still struggles around it.


Miami is the third busiest long-haul destination from Switzerland and there is very, very strong premium demand between Miami and Switzerland. In 2011, Switzerland was the Miami Custom District's third largest trade partner after Brazil and Colombia.

MIAZRH is also a very large local market - more than 150 PDEW. MIAGVA isn't small, either.

[Edited 2012-05-16 23:41:49]


a.
User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 532 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4740 times:

I am not going crazy after all. It appears seat availabily has now been wiped out. Phew...

User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 532 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4652 times:

The following message has just been sent to KL's sales offices:

"MIA flights WI12/13
KL will not resume service to MIA for the Winter 12 season.
Affected customers will be re-accommodated on alternate KL*/DL service via ATL"


Oh well... too bad.


User currently onlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9822 posts, RR: 11
Reply 26, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4590 times:

Quoting 76er (Reply 25):
The following message has just been sent to KL's sales offices:

"MIA flights WI12/13
KL will not resume service to MIA for the Winter 12 season.
Affected customers will be re-accommodated on alternate KL*/DL service via ATL"


Oh well... too bad.

So KL will NOT resume flights to MIA afterall??? Why is KL doing this???

A388


User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 532 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4497 times:

I guess KL can make more money flying the same plane to e.g. Africa or China. There's just too much competition across the Atlantic. It's all a matter of priorities.

User currently onlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9822 posts, RR: 11
Reply 28, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4412 times:

Quoting 76er (Reply 27):
I guess KL can make more money flying the same plane to e.g. Africa or China. There's just too much competition across the Atlantic. It's all a matter of priorities.

I completely understand that. It's just that I didn't expect a major and well run airline like KL to do it this way (first announce the MIA route will be restarted, than taking those words back).

A388


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25338 posts, RR: 22
Reply 29, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4190 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 28):
Quoting 76er (Reply 27):
I guess KL can make more money flying the same plane to e.g. Africa or China. There's just too much competition across the Atlantic. It's all a matter of priorities.

I completely understand that. It's just that I didn't expect a major and well run airline like KL to do it this way (first announce the MIA route will be restarted, than taking those words back).

The market and economic situation is so volatile these days that decisions made a month ago often have to be reassessed in the light of subsequent developments. It's the carriers that don't react quickly to changing circumstances that usually have the worst financial problems. That's especially important in markets like AMS-MIA which is almost totally leisure traffic with very little high-yield business demand.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4111 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 28):
I completely understand that. It's just that I didn't expect a major and well run airline like KL to do it this way (first announce the MIA route will be restarted, than taking those words back).

It seems quite normal these days for KL to alter their schedule regularly. Just look on what they've been doing to TIP (which was announced, postponed, postponed and now postponed indefinitely). Moreover new long haul services seem to get at least one postponement before they actually start (Luanda was postponed 2/3 times and Lusaka isn't doing any better). Will be interesting to learn what KL will do with the aircraft they previously assigned to MIA (though I fear they'll reduce MD-11 flying for a few days in the week).


User currently onlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9822 posts, RR: 11
Reply 31, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4070 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
The market and economic situation is so volatile these days that decisions made a month ago often have to be reassessed in the light of subsequent developments. It's the carriers that don't react quickly to changing circumstances that usually have the worst financial problems. That's especially important in markets like AMS-MIA which is almost totally leisure traffic with very little high-yield business demand.

It's not like the market and economic situation has been so volatile since a few days ago. An airline like KL knows these things pretty well in advance. The economic crisis isn't something that took them by surprise just a month ago. The economic crisis has been known for about a year now. To my knowledge there is also no official press release from KL themselves and the resumption of the MIA flights. So again, why is KL doing it this way???

A388


User currently onlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9822 posts, RR: 11
Reply 32, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4062 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 30):
It seems quite normal these days for KL to alter their schedule regularly.

Thanks LJ, I only see your post now. I still find it a strange way of handling a route because I'm not used to seeing KL doing it this way. Let's wait and see what will happen.

A388


User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3969 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 23):
In 2011, Switzerland was the Miami Custom District's third largest trade partner after Brazil and Colombia.

True, much of it is gold.



“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17509 posts, RR: 45
Reply 34, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3280 times:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand it was just pulled.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 35, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2634 times:

This is surprising. KL usually has one of the lowest CASM because of their dense configurations. If anybody should survive in a low-ish RASM market that is MIA - i would have thought it was KL. Based on DOT, loads were strong >85% and cargo performance was actually quite good.

This is an odd move. Can't imagine they would do much better in other markets.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 36, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2440 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 35):
Can't imagine they would do much better in other markets.

I'm afraid this doesn't bode well for DFW, which might very well not make the cut next year if things don't improve dramatically.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2374 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 36):
I'm afraid this doesn't bode well for DFW, which might very well not make the cut next year if things don't improve dramatically.

DFW seems to be starting well this year (or at least better than expected) as KL decided to have the 5 weekly flights 2 weeks earlier than first expected.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 35):
If anybody should survive in a low-ish RASM market that is MIA - i would have thought it was KL.

But ArkeFly is also on the route.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 35):
Based on DOT, loads were strong >85% and cargo performance was actually quite good.

KL needs high lad factirs to break even. A 85% loadfactor is a common load factor. As for cargo, their subsidiary acn pick this up.


User currently offlinegreenwichsud From United States of America, joined May 2008, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1938 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 31):
It's not like the market and economic situation has been so volatile since a few days ago. An airline like KL knows these things pretty well in advance. The economic crisis isn't something that took them by surprise just a month ago. The economic crisis has been known for about a year now. To my knowledge there is also no official press release from KL themselves and the resumption of the MIA flights. So again, why is KL doing it this way???

This behavior borders on the unethical. It's a bait and switch - a number of passengers may have booked with KL solely because of the nonstop routing when, at their respective time of booking, there were multiple carriers offering connections through hubs on either side of the Atlantic that were as good/better than the ATL routing (and likely at lower fares due to the flights not being nonstop). They are now being forced onto a connecting flight (on which DL/KL probably enjoys better profitability) and not being refunded the difference. KL/AF wins and passengers/competitors lose.

[Edited 2012-06-11 08:46:22]

[Edited 2012-06-11 08:47:54]

User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3354 posts, RR: 6
Reply 39, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1548 times:

Quoting greenwichsud (Reply 38):
This behavior borders on the unethical. It's a bait and switch - a number of passengers may have booked with KL solely because of the nonstop routing when, at their respective time of booking, there were multiple carriers offering connections through hubs on either side of the Atlantic that were as good/better than the ATL routing (and likely at lower fares due to the flights not being nonstop). They are now being forced onto a connecting flight (on which DL/KL probably enjoys better profitability) and not being refunded the difference. KL/AF wins and passengers/competitors lose.

I wonder if KL will offer refunds to affected customers. In all likelihood, they reserved the rights to change routings and operators in their contract of carriage, but it would still be a nice show of goodwill.


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