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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote  
User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 892 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9972 times:

Reportedly, CO ALPA has authorized a strike vote and has forwarded that to UA ALPA. Is this true and does anyone know what the vote by the union council was (was it unanimous?)?

IIRC, CO ALPA has been negotiating for about 5 years (pre and post merger) and is 3.5 years past their amendable date. UA ALPA is about 2.5 past theirs (again, IIRC).

Quite a contrast to the DL tentative agreement reach ahead of schedule (see: Delta Reaches TA With Alpa 7 Months Early! (by OOer May 15 2012 in Civil Aviation))

After five years, I can understand the frustration. Didn't UA/CO Smisek promise Congress that the joint contracts would be done in 2010?

Are the union negotiations (with all work groups) holding up the rumored narrow body aircraft order?

I realize that this will devolve into yet another pro-union/anti-union hate-fest, but I thought it was relevant and didn't see another post about it here.


My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
126 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUALFAson From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 730 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9843 times:

Haven't followed the specifics of the negotiations and vote but this is generally the rumor I have heard.

If either pilots group goes on strike, especially during the peak summer travel season, UA can go ahead and file for Chapter 7 liquidation and we can kiss the airline goodbye. After 2000's summer of hell and the recent integration snafus, UA just doesn't have enough goodwill left to survive another crisis.



"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2415 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9790 times:

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 1):
If either pilots group goes on strike, especially during the peak summer travel season,

Won't happen. Any action within the next 60-90 days would be illegal.

With the announcement of new pilot and F/A bases, plus DL's agreement with ALPA, the pilots are pulling out all the stops to force management's hand. We'll see what goes down.

A lot of this is posturing by the unions, expressing their displeasure over the pace of negotiations. The company clearly doesn't view the joint pilot contract as a priority item right now (they don't really need to) so it is questionable whether a deal will get done any time soon.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17537 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9749 times:

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 2):
plus DL's agreement with ALPA

Between this and AA's progress with APA, where does that put UA's pilots?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5980 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9749 times:

Has either group even been released from mediation?...I think UAALPA asked but I don't think it's been granted yet. If not this is simply symbolic.


Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4287 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9725 times:
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Quoting UALFAson (Reply 1):
If either pilots group goes on strike, especially during the peak summer travel season, UA can go ahead and file for Chapter 7 liquidation and we can kiss the airline goodbye. After 2000's summer of hell and the recent integration snafus, UA just doesn't have enough goodwill left to survive another crisis.

Oh gawd !

And I already have itineraries constructed through Jan 2013.

Time to dig out the old "Rapid-Rewards" card -- I guess I'm going to be using it.  


User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1685 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9725 times:

Quoting flyhossd (Thread starter):
Didn't UA/CO Smisek promise Congress that the joint contracts would be done in 2010?

No I don't believe so. But he did say he wanted them to be done by the end of 2011, then came back and said he had set too aggresive of a goal.

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 1):
If either pilots group goes on strike, especially during the peak summer travel season, UA can go ahead and file for Chapter 7 liquidation and we can kiss the airline goodbye. After 2000's summer of hell and the recent integration snafus, UA just doesn't have enough goodwill left to survive another crisis.

Errr yeah, with $8B in cash, even if it weren't illegal for them to strike, UA wouldn't need a liquidation. There would be a temporary furlough of pretty much everyone though. This type of action would hurt a lot of people, having the least impact on the exact people they are trying to torch and instead falling on every other work group at the company. There would be no sympathy from any other workgroup at the company if the pilots pulled that stunt.

2000 was also so long ago that most of the flying public probably has no idea what you're talking about.


User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1161 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9597 times:

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 1):
If either pilots group goes on strike, especially during the peak summer travel season, UA can go ahead and file for Chapter 7 liquidation and we can kiss the airline goodbye. After 2000's summer of hell and the recent integration snafus, UA just doesn't have enough goodwill left to survive another crisis.

Overly dramatic much?

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 6):
2000 was also so long ago that most of the flying public probably has no idea what you're talking about.

  


User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2415 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9596 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):


Between this and AA's progress with APA, where does that put UA's pilots?

Angry.


User currently offlinedeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1654 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9583 times:

Wouldn't the gov't or can't the white house stop a strike? Remember back in 90s when AA pilots tried to strike and Clinton overruled it on grounds that the airline was too big then and it would have a detrimental impact on the US transport system? The new UA is a lot bigger than that. If I'm correct, doesn't seem like the pilots would have a lot of legs to stand on.

User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 892 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9523 times:

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 9):
Wouldn't the gov't or can't the white house stop a strike? Remember back in 90s when AA pilots tried to strike and Clinton overruled it on grounds that the airline was too big then and it would have a detrimental impact on the US transport system? The new UA is a lot bigger than that. If I'm correct, doesn't seem like the pilots would have a lot of legs to stand on.

As I recall, the President can stop a strike, but only for a limited period (30 days?).

Quoting United1 (Reply 4):
Has either group even been released from mediation?...I think UAALPA asked but I don't think it's been granted yet. If not this is simply symbolic.

No, there hasn't been a release granted, yet. I think this step is just the first step in reaching a strike and it's symbolic, too.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 6):
This type of action would hurt a lot of people, having the least impact on the exact people they are trying to torch and instead falling on every other work group at the company. There would be no sympathy from any other workgroup at the company if the pilots pulled that stunt.

I think the frustrations are so high, that the co-worker sympathy angle has been surpassed.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 817 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9522 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 6):
2000 was also so long ago that most of the flying public probably has no idea what you're talking about.

I haven't forgotten.


User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9501 times:

It's clear when you read threads like this then you know upper management is being unresponsive.

Honestly, I'm not surprised.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4019 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9445 times:
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Quoting CODC10 (Reply 2):
Won't happen. Any action within the next 60-90 days would be illegal.

When would be the earliest they can strike?

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 5):
And I already have itineraries constructed through Jan 2013.

I feel your pain. I really don't like AA (blame the mad dogs) but I may not have a choice, and with status match to boot...



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1685 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9445 times:

Quoting mcg (Reply 11):
I haven't forgotten.

And you're posting on AIRLINERS, which most of the flying public doesn't do. Clearly missing the point   


User currently offlineORDBOSEWR From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 441 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9373 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 13):
Quoting CODC10 (Reply 2):
Won't happen. Any action within the next 60-90 days would be illegal.

When would be the earliest they can strike?

As I understand it. The unions first have to be released from mediation, which has not happened.
Once that occurs they go into the cooling off period, which is required prior to any strike.

So we are x days + cooling off period. It will not happen before July/August at the earliest, but as others have said. The president can stop a strike under the a national emergency order. It is my understanding he can do it indefinitely. As United has hubs in major markets like NYC, Chicago, LA and San Fran the president is not going to let a strike happen in the summer. That would be bad in an election year, but he will not tip that hand as that would take the power away from the union which this president needs for his re-election. (Yes, his re-election will play a role in this if it drags into the fall.)

The action to take a strike vote is a union approach to negotiations. Depending on the results, which the union feels will be very strong to get the point they want to management. The union wants 95+% votes in favor of strike it sends the message to the company that they are aligned to the goals of the union negotiation. If the vote results in something less dramatic it could signal a faction in the union that the company can leverage in negotiations.


User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 892 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9332 times:

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 15):
So we are x days + cooling off period. It will not happen before July/August at the earliest, but as others have said. The president can stop a strike under the a national emergency order. It is my understanding he can do it indefinitely.

From section 160 of the Railway Labor Act: "After the creation of such board and for thirty days after such board has made its report to the President, no change, except by agreement, shall be made by the parties to the controversy in the conditions out of which the dispute arose."

So if I'm reading that correctly, the President's "Emergency Board" can only stop a strike for 30 days after the board makes it's report (the President's Emergency Board must make it's report within 30 days of it's creation).

http://www.nmb.gov/documents/rla.html

[Edited 2012-05-17 13:06:37]


My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2415 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9128 times:

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 15):
(Yes, his re-election will play a role in this if it drags into the fall.)

Bingo. The pilots want to make this a political issue, which is probably a wise strategy for them.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 16):
So if I'm reading that correctly, the President's "Emergency Board" can only stop a strike for 30 days after the board makes it's report (the President's Emergency Board must make it's report within 30 days of it's creation).

Once the President decides to convene the PEB, it starts a 60 day status quo period during which strike is illegal. Once the PEB makes its recommendations and these recommendations are reviewed by the President and the parties, another 30 day status quo period may be declared before self-help is legal. However, both parties may stipulate that the PEB be allowed more time to reach its recommendations, during which the 60 day period is tolled.

At any rate, it could be months before the process reaches self help. Keep in mind that all this discussion could be moot if the NMB refuses to release the parties from the bargaining table.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7273 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9069 times:

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 15):
The president can stop a strike under the a national emergency order. It is my understanding he can do it indefinitely.

I would be shocked if there is something in the USA constitution that allowed a law / rule / regulation to be passed that allowed the president such power, I can see a cooling off period but not indefinate.

Unfortunately, there have not been many major strikes, so without those most management incentive to get things done is based on the current flow of money, US Air has not had their pilots integrated since their merger and so far the airline is making money so who cares? In their case congress should pass a law, if you function without a contract or under an expired contract for X number of months it becomes permamnent and the dispute goes away. How does one continue to work under an expired contract which is onerous, can't be that bad if you continue to function for years on end.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5980 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8901 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 18):
How does one continue to work under an expired contract which is onerous, can't be that bad if you continue to function for years on end.

The contacts don't actually expire they simply become amendable on a certain date...

Quoting par13del (Reply 18):
I would be shocked if there is something in the USA constitution that allowed a law / rule / regulation to be passed that allowed the president such power, I can see a cooling off period but not indefinate.

The president doesn't have that power...he can only stop it for 30 days...however congress has the power to intervene and impose a settlement..that's in article 1 section 8 of the constitutions commerce clause.

Lets say that the NMB released UA/CO tomorrow from mediation that automatically starts a 30 day cooling off period during which a presidential emergency board is convened and has to submit a report to the president within 30 days of the time the PEB starts working on effects, causes and solutions to end the stalemate. Upon the submission of the report a further 30 day cooling off period starts and once that has run its course, barring a presidential executive order, both sides are able to engage in self help (lockouts and strikes.)

In other words all that happened today was CO-ALPA is trying to give itself another bargaining lever with management...its always a gigantic game of chicken when it comes to management vs union negotiations.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16877 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8882 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 12):
It's clear when you read threads like this then you know upper management is being unresponsive.

What I see is the unions ratcheting up the rhetoric to try to get themselves some leverage.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 892 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8687 times:

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 17):
Once the President decides to convene the PEB, it starts a 60 day status quo period during which strike is illegal. Once the PEB makes its recommendations and these recommendations are reviewed by the President and the parties, another 30 day status quo period may be declared before self-help is legal. However, both parties may stipulate that the PEB be allowed more time to reach its recommendations, during which the 60 day period is tolled.

Can you provide the statutory reference for that? From what I found today, it appears that the President can assemble an Emergency Board and then the Board has up to 30 days to report. From that time (when the report is issued), then another 30 days elapse before "self-help" can be implemented. IOW, that's a maximum of 60 days, not the 90 days you're suggesting.

If I'm overlooking something, please let me know; my reference is Section 160 of the Railway Labor Act:

§ 160. Emergency board

If a dispute between a carrier and its employees be not adjusted under the foregoing provisions of this chapter and should, in the judgment of the Mediation Board, threaten substantially to interrupt interstate commerce to a degree such as to deprive any section of the country of essential transportation service, the Mediation Board shall notify the President, who may thereupon, in his discretion, create a board to investigate and report respecting such dispute. Such board shall be composed of such number of persons as to the President may seem desirable: Provided, however, That no member appointed shall be pecuniarily or otherwise interested in any organization of employees or any carrier. The compensation of the members of any such board shall be fixed by the President. Such board shall be created separately in each instance and it shall investigate promptly the facts as to the dispute and make a report thereon to the President within thirty days from the date of its creation.

There is authorized to be appropriated such sums as may be necessary for the expenses of such board, including the compensation and the necessary traveling expenses and expenses actually incurred for subsistence, of the members of the board. All expenditures of the board shall be allowed and paid on the presentation of itemized vouchers therefor approved by the chairman.

After the creation of such board and for thirty days after such board has made its report to the President, no change, except by agreement, shall be made by the parties to the controversy in the conditions out of which the dispute arose.

(May 20, 1926, ch. 347, §10, 44 Stat. 586; June 21, 1934, ch. 691, § 7, 48 Stat. 1197.)

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 17):
At any rate, it could be months before the process reaches self help. Keep in mind that all this discussion could be moot if the NMB refuses to release the parties from the bargaining table.

  



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 892 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8643 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
What I see is the unions ratcheting up the rhetoric to try to get themselves some leverage.

I would agree, however it appears to be due to:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 12):

It's clear when you read threads like this then you know upper management is being unresponsive.

CO ALPA has been negotiation for nearly 5 years, UA about 3.5, IIRC.

DL produces a T.A. 7 months ahead of schedule (was it just two or three months since the DL negotiations started?).

And USAirways reaches an agreement with APA in about a month.

So what would you expect CO and UA ALPA to do? Are you surprised?



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16877 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8621 times:

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 22):

CO ALPA has been negotiation for nearly 5 years, UA about 3.5, IIRC.

DL produces a T.A. 7 months ahead of schedule (was it just two or three months since the DL negotiations started?).

And USAirways reaches an agreement with APA in about a month.

So what would you expect CO and UA ALPA to do? Are you surprised

Make no mistake, what DL and US have done or is doing is irrelevant. What is being negotiated now between UA and it's unions will be the new industry standard one way or another. Whether that leans towards the Union position or the management position has yet to be determined.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8557 times:

The reason all these (most) pilot negotiations have stretched on for years is because there is a fundamental disconnect in mindset.

Pilots believe their concessions of the past were temporary measures. They believe the deals of the past are only fair and actually deserve more, adjusted for inflation.

Management thinks the concessions were simply a first pass at returning to a more profitable contract after the overpayed contracts of the 90s born from low fuel. Managements want even further cuts.

These POVs are so far apart, coming to an agreement becomes nearly impossible.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 brilondon : I don't see this as a national emergency with the other airlines in the U.S. to fly on. As well would they go into chapter 11 before they totally shu
26 United1 : While there are other airlines UA (and DL) represent a huge portion of the capacity here in the US and of US carriers overseas. With loads being as h
27 Post contains images flyhossd : As I recall, they were told by management that the concessions were indeed, temporary! Except at Delta. And Southwest. And US reaching a quick agreem
28 Post contains images catiii : OR it's clear that this specific labor group's mindset isn't based in reality.
29 B737900ER : It's clear when you read threads like this then you know upper management is being unresponsive. Since the close of the merger UA has negotiated cont
30 flyhossd : As you acknowledge, not a single joint contract has been reached.[Edited 2012-05-17 17:17:01] Yet DL reached an agreement in just over 2 months, IIRC
31 CODC10 : The parties, by mutual agreement, can stipulate to extensions of time for the PEB to issue its recommendations. You might not find statutory authorit
32 T5towbar : It's not that simple. There are no contracts signed yet for ANY workgroup yet. And there is still a representation election to go with the Maintenanc
33 B737900ER : There have been contracts signed. The mechanics have signed two of them. The problem with most work groups is senority integration. Something manageme
34 flyhossd : And yet not a single joint contract. NOT ONE. 2+ years beyond the merger announcement and no joint agreements with any unionized work group. Somethin
35 B737900ER : They do not. They have no say in how a work group integrates its members. You can't have a joint contract with two split work groups, hince the word j
36 Post contains links nwaesc : Here's a flow chart that outlines the steps of collective bargaining, including when/how a PEB can come into play: http://www.nmb.gov/publicinfo/collb
37 flyhossd : You seemed to have missed my point. Senior management has every say in completing a contract; I agree that it's generally up to the work groups to so
38 CALTECH : Senior Management has no say in our 'Mechanic's Negotiations' for a joint contract going on now. We have no joint contract because there is a issue o
39 01pewterz28 : Yes PM UAL ALPA have already requested to be released from NMB see MEC Chairman's comments below I do believe this will be 1985 all over again it will
40 tommy767 : Regardless this is not good press for United.
41 UALFAson : You might not remember it and the average Joe Schmoe might not remember it, but more importantly, plenty of frequent flyers and corporate travel prof
42 RDH3E : I hope you're wrong. I haven't been out on the line much lately, but it seems like things are starting to come around. Part of the problem is the con
43 T5towbar : I agree completely. Change is difficult with new policies and procedures. Two completely cultures trying to mesh into one takes time. IMHO, I don't t
44 tommy767 : The thing is that wasn't really an excuse for Delta/Northwest who really executed everything in a timely fashion and didn't blame the passenger for i
45 style : Overly Dramatic indeed. Is it me or do people get a kick out of making comments like this just for the dramatic effect? Your 2+ year time frame is wa
46 CALTECH : That was a buyout of Northwest by Delta. United/Continental is a merger. Two completely different animals. That is for the company and pilots to deci
47 tommy767 : It doesn't matter. They treated as a merger and they did it better. At Continental. The fact that COEX never got their hands on 170s and 190s PM is a
48 flyhossd : My 2+ time frame was in reference to the time since the merger announcement - I even said so! In the case of the CO pilots, they've been negotiating
49 Post contains images mayor : A good portion of the flying public has forgotten what they had for breakfast. Please explain what the difference is? To me, whether "buyout" or "mer
50 United1 : Both are technically buyouts and both were treated as mergers...comparing apples to apples both had some fairly significant issues resolving represen
51 flyhossd : Not from the perspective of a mainline CO pilot. Just look at what happened at UA, UA ALPA allowed 70 seat RJs; UA parked all of their 737s and furlo
52 CODC10 : I don't think you understand the purpose of the scope clause. It's a provision of the mainline pilot contract strictly to protect pilot jobs. As flyh
53 RDH3E : People need to remember their paychecks don't come from the Union, they don't come from anything the Union does. Their paychecks and their livelihood
54 RDH3E : It's not a belief, it's a fact.
55 01pewterz28 : When we filed for CH 11 we gave up a lot to help save the company we were told it would be temporary as the years passed and things started to look up
56 tommy767 : Well, fast forward to 2012, the 735s are being phased out and no 170s have been ordered (or painted.) So these 735s were in jeopardy anyway since CO
57 DualQual : How many E170s are flown by mainline pilots, staffed by mainline flight attendants, maintained by mainline mechanics, and even boarded by mainline ag
58 STT757 : They are being replaced by the new 738s and 739s, UA had no mainline narrow bodies coming in when they started parking their 733s, 735s in favor of t
59 ikramerica : Numbers please. And additionally, I love how you chose 1992, because that was another period of higher salaries, and the unions themselves (non-F/A)
60 T5towbar : That was during the oil price spike of 2008. When that happened, it even made the 762 uneconomical. The 500's were going to leave now because they ar
61 flyhossd : I'd hate to see it happen, too. Unfortunately, the Railway Labor Act allows no other answer. It's a very long process to get there, too.
62 Post contains images CALTECH : Au contraire, it absolutely matters. Delta did not treat it as a merger, Delta bought Northwest for some 3 billion dollars. And in fact I know some o
63 tommy767 : Technically United PURCHASED Continental but the PR spin was "Merger of Equals." Here's the thing: You got the 735s going out, the 738/739 coming in
64 CODC10 : Read the fleet plan. It's already happening. Attrition, for one. The inverse is actually the case.
65 RDH3E : What is funny is the answer is that some of E170's are flown by folks who are on the furlough list at UA. It was a clause in the contract that Shuttl
66 CODC10 : I think they probably could, but the margins would not be nearly as profitable as they currently are with outsourced operators.
67 Post contains links CALTECH : Don't know where this misinformation keeps coming from. There was no buyout. My shares were not bought, I still own them. http://www.guardian.co.uk/b
68 ikramerica : They might be able to if there were E170 pay scales.
69 United1 : There was no money exchanged both were stock based transactions DL issued stock to purchase NWs outstanding shares....UA issued stock to purchase COs
70 flyhossd : You're right about the seniority lists having that result. But you clearly don't know the history of WHY they developed - SAFETY. Might I suggest you
71 DualQual : And if you think it is only the union being out to lunch on contract expectations, you are just as delusional. Management seems hell bent on us takin
72 tommy767 : They certainly didn't get right the SHARES transition, elite upgrade lists (buy ups at kiosks for non elites at rock bottom prices), customer service
73 mayor : If in fact you're talking about Western, they need to get over it......that was 25 years ago. I'm not really sure why they would be bitter about thos
74 Post contains links RDH3E : There are no margins now. None. If there were, then you'd see the whole airline eeking out more than a 5% profit in total. Unless you're suggesting t
75 CODC10 : Non-elite buy-ups are a calculated, deliberate move. They might not be working as-advertised, but they didn't on the CO side either before the merger
76 Post contains links tommy767 : In the long run if they keep doing this then they'll lose their high value elites to DL and AA. Make no mistake about that. UA's hubs have a lot of c
77 style : Yes, you said it yourself 2+ years since the merger announcement. So why are you making it seem like the company has been sitting on its behind for 2
78 tommy767 : Yes and there are current stories where CO employees are saying on board, "Thank you for flying Continental" and/or "CO EWR based flight crew" or som
79 United1 : Really how? I flew that weekend...they didn't loose any of my reservations, my upgrades cleared 2 of the 3 flights I was on were smack on time and th
80 tommy767 : Well these FF's flying UA aren't lying on flyertalk, how else can these stories be justified?? I'd like to think on a.net we have some rose colored g
81 STT757 : You don't think that lately there has been a certain amount of embelishment by some vocal folks on FT's UA boards in order to push discussion in a ce
82 Post contains images United1 : ...embellishment on the internet....never!!!!
83 flyhossd : If I were an employee, I wouldn't trust the company. "A company gets the union it deserves and right now, the company deserves a lot" - that's a rece
84 aaexecplat : Well, let's see. Partner segments on award reservations being lost and then irretrievable later...ticket changes taking forever...delays due to paper
85 flyhossd : I'd guess that's because his/her paycheck still says "Continental" on it. In other words, it's a reminder that the merger still isn't done, at least
86 tommy767 : Pre-merger Continental embellishment on a.net??? NEVER! But seriously I can recall when I started blogging here in 2003 that every other pride post w
87 mcg : Wouldn't have been better for the 1400 pilots noted above for United and the union to agree to operate the E170's at a pay rate that worked economica
88 United1 : I am a pre merger UA flyer and moved to NY last August...I fly out of EWR 90% of the time and still don't have an issue with much...the security chec
89 ikramerica : No, the rate would be higher just not the 737 payscales that pilots want. And why wouldn't an entry ML pilot work for less money if it meant they wer
90 Post contains images RDH3E : I agree that it's impractical, but that is exactly what the Unions want.
91 aaexecplat : Glad to see I haven't lost my touch. You're a legacy UA guy who only recently started having to deal with EWR/PMCO. Problem is that even miles/cash/i
92 mcg : It seems to me that the low seniority pilot would be significantly better off if the RJ flying was mainline at some economic pay scale. Why? because
93 United1 : What is that supposed to mean? I don't disagree but would ALPA go for it....probably not as it brings express pay scales to mainline...that's a road
94 STT757 : So all those awards all those years were part of an organized campaign that included people on A-net to prop up CO's reputation artificially? Come on
95 tommy767 : Those are two separate issues. My point was that A.net has been over ranking Continental for over 10 years now. That was part of the PMCO PR machine:
96 STT757 : You say poor, I say "imitation is the sincerest way of saying we're better" to quote a CO add. Funny how you bad mouth the 757 on Trans-Atlantic rout
97 ual777 : I hope not. Working at the regionals sucks. I like my management, and they do the best the can but its being a second-class citizen in just about eve
98 Mir : It's better than working at RP at RP's rates. I don't particularly want to work at RP's rates at all, but if it has to be that, and the choice is eit
99 mayor : Well, thanks.....because almost everything Bethune came up with, was already done previously by DL. Check it out........customer service #1, profits
100 Post contains images UnitedTristar : well, its not just pilot pay either, you have to account for other costs as well. UA CSR's have a contract that states they have to ground handle a s
101 ckfred : In much of the country, that is true. Chicago would be a different story. Between a very stormy summer and UA's management not taking ALPA to court,
102 RyanairGuru : From a purely political perspective I don't think the President has a choice for the reasons you state. It will, however, be a tough pill for him to
103 STT757 : DL is the Chinese government of airlines when it comes to ripping off ideas from other carriers.
104 Post contains links CALTECH : I'm looking at it more as what happens to the entities. Nothing much of Northwest policies survived, some of it's employees and aircraft survived and
105 mayor : I don't know about the mechanics, but in ACS (and every OTHER dept. I can think of) they lost NO seniority. The only thing I can remember is that the
106 nwaesc : The pilots might have, since cash is king, and they got quite a bit to integrate smoothly. I don't think many other groups "embraced" it, though. To
107 Post contains links CALTECH : Memory fails. Facts are fact. http://articles.latimes.com/1987-09-.../business/fi-3954_1_western-pilots 'Former Western Pilots Sue Delta : Airlines'
108 tommy767 : That's part of the PMCO propaganda PR machine. They weren't any better, they just made their fan base of elites in Houston and New Jersey think so. T
109 mayor : Well, I suppose Caltech should have referred to that, then.......otherwise we're talking comparing apples and oranges, using two different seniority
110 mayor : You might want to ask some NW people, other than the mechanics, about that. I maintain that there are procedures that you aren't privy to, that have
111 quiet1 : In a worst case scenario, what happens to PMUA if the PMCO pilots were to go on an extended strike? Would it bleed resources just from the PMCO subsid
112 CODC10 : I'm sorry, where in this thread did anyone assert that Continental was better than United at any point? Further, is it really necessary to insert thi
113 N8911E : Not to be a smart-ass or anything, but what would Mr. President do if they still strike? arrest ALL the pilots? Yeah, he is one of, if not the most p
114 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : LOL. I'm happy for you if you believe that.
115 Mir : And then they're pretty much unhireable by any other airline, so they'd have to find new careers. Some of them might be able to do that and still be
116 GoBoeing : What exactly does your term "pretty much unhireable" mean? I mean, I know this part of the thread turned all hypothetical, but I want to know -- what
117 Mir : They might, if they think that those people are willing to take part in organized disruption of the company (which they would have shown they are). W
118 Post contains images Jerseyguy :
119 Post contains images par13del : See this type comment a lot, has management anywhere attempted to get the police or FBI to investigate how workers get taken over by a foreign entity
120 mayor : Want to give me some facts on this? You can't because it isn't true. Where did the other airlines get their knowledge of the hub and spoke system? DL
121 Post contains images style : Why be happy for him rather than look at the facts? Who is the management team in charge, is it led by Tilton or Smisek? We can talk stock swap and f
122 FlyASAGuy2005 : The BOD makes that decision. Who's running the show has nothing to do with whether it was a "merger" or "buy-out". By that logic, NW bought DL becaus
123 style : The new board is composed of directors from both s-CO and s-UA so the whole argument isn't bull. In technical terms, it was a stock swap where UA bou
124 FlyASAGuy2005 : That's my point...the poster is trying to say in face that the DL/NW merger was a straight buy-out and CO/UA was radically different when on paper, b
125 flyhossd : FYI, I had the chance (and even remembered!) to ask one of my old acquaintances about this; he confirmed that his paystub still reads "Continental" a
126 Post contains links STT757 : Some more progress with the IAM; http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...ts-groups-20120522,0,6392886.story
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