B6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2767 posts, RR: 7 Reply 3, posted (1 year 19 hours ago) and read 6112 times:
Let me try this again since my original response failed to upload LOL.
Seems A.net is on a B6 kick this week with all the B6 threads that are up. Anyhoo, here are a few reasons:
1) The A320s that we operate would have potential range issues unless a cap is put on pax/cargo, which would hurt revenue.
2) B6 does not operate any ETOPS rated aircraft.
3) The markets are extremely flooded already....and new entrants are coming in all the time which drives down yield since the airlines have to battle it out for the customers which is normally through cutting prices. Just because a plane is full doesn't mean its making money. This is the opposite of what you see happening with B6's expansion into the Caribbean where money is being made hand-over-fist.
4) The powers that be (the B.O.D., etc.) a few years ago told B6 that they wanted to see stage length cut. Doing a west-coast to Hawaii run is a long-haul flight with the potential for low yield, not what they want to hear. Now, we did add LGB to ANC last year as a seasonal market and the amount of cargo being flown on that route was insane. Long haul with good cargo yield makes the higher-ups happy.
5) Is the product really going to be THAT different? Another single-aisle aircraft, free snacks and drinks, buy-onboard snack boxes and free movies. But the DirecTV will stop working shortly after takeoff and so will the XM radio as your are going out of the coverage area of the satellites.
Just a few things that come to mind for me.
~H81
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
boeingfever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 57 Reply 4, posted (1 year 19 hours ago) and read 6061 times:
Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 3): 1) The A320s that we operate would have potential range issues unless a cap is put on pax/cargo, which would hurt revenue.
2) B6 does not operate any ETOPS rated aircraft.
All they need is a etops licenses, correct?
Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 3): 3) The markets are extremely flooded already....
B6 product is far better than the competition, and their are enough B6 fans to support this flight, it has been asked for before. HA product is far from B6 and I find it hard that they co-share with this airline.
They need to be certified as an airline and then each aircraft has to be certified that is making the trip. This is not an easy thing to get and takes a lot of time.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
I think it is more than that. I know some A-319s have ETOPS capabilities, but I don't think any A-320s or A-321s are ETOPS certified, but I could be wrong. Also going to an island destination you have to have enough fuel to fly to the high post or fix, then hold for 2 hours due to weather.
Remember, B6 usually have to make a refueling stop on TRANSCON flights in the wintertime from BOS or JFK.
But, I agree, there is no need for B6 to enter the Hawaiian market, because it is flooded with seats now.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2450 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (1 year 18 hours ago) and read 5899 times:
Etops they don't have it on any planes plus with allegiant entering hawaii and southwest has indicated they want too also expect fares to dip overall to hawaii. It just doesn't seem that attractive right I don't think. Sure the FF base might be happy but all lgb slots are in use so they would need to cut somewhere else to even do it so that would stink. It just doesn't seem like it's worth it imho especially since all lgb slots are in use and the potential changing hawaii market they could find low fares and long flights after all the etops expense.
Check the numerous ETOPS threads here, but in short:
ETOPS aircraft have special certification requirements for backup electrical supplies, APU operation, and much more. A320s can be certified, but it's a very expensive process, even more so if the planes have to be retrofitted, as B6's would.
ETOPS regulations require much more conservative fuel planning than on domestic non-ETOPS flights. That means carrying a lot more reserve fuel, which cuts into available payolad. The 320 would already be limited in the payload it could carry on a flight as long as LGB-HNL. The ETOPS regs cut even deeper into that payload.
The maintenance tracking & operation requirements for ETOPS flights are hugely more complex than domestic. That's one area that constantly trips up new entrants into ETOPS operation. It's a lot more expensive because of the additional checks and servicing needed.
There's a lot more involved with ETOPS. These subjects are just the tip of the iceberg.
If B6 wanted to fly to Hawaii, there are much less expensive (and more profitable) ways than doing it themselves with the 320. When you create a business model that relies on one type of aircraft only, there are routes and destinations that simply can't (or shouldn't) be attempted. For B6, Hawaii is one of them.
HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
B6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2767 posts, RR: 7 Reply 12, posted (1 year 18 hours ago) and read 5815 times:
Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 5): They need to be certified as an airline and then each aircraft has to be certified that is making the trip. This is not an easy thing to get and takes a lot of time.
Correct (FWIK), and B6 is currently focusing a lot of time and effort on other things with the fleet:
> WiFi
> A320 Winglet Retrofit
> NextGen ATC modifications
> A321 preparations
....the list seems never-ending sometimes, but those are 3 of the big ones here on the tech side, lord knows what Marketing, Brand, and Engineering are cooking up LOL!
Quoting boeingfever777 (Reply 4): B6 product is far better than the competition, and their are enough B6 fans to support this flight,
Read my 5th bullet point again:
Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 3): 5) Is the product really going to be THAT different? Another single-aisle aircraft, free snacks and drinks, buy-onboard snack boxes and free movies. But the DirecTV will stop working shortly after takeoff and so will the XM radio as your are going out of the coverage area of the satellites.
Most of the fans from the west coast are probably not used to our TVs going out of the range of the DirecTV satellites for nearly the entire flight. East coast folks know about that a lot more because that happens on all the Caribbean flights. I know our inflight crews are good, and we do give free snacks and drinks, but other than that, what real selling point is there going to be for B6? They pride themselves in selling seats with LiveTV, but that won't be the case for this flight. Most airlines now have leather seats. Sure we have a little more legroom, and the (3) movies would be free, but some airlines have AVOD (even if its for a fee) that would blow our offerings out of the water as far as IFE goes. All-in-all, you're dealing with another single-aisle plane with minimal IFE and food offerings flying this long route. So there isn't that much of a difference between products, and the B6 product may actually lack in comparison to others currently flying the route. I'm not trying to put down my airline, but just do a fair comparison.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6): Also going to an island destination you have to have enough fuel to fly to the high post or fix, then hold for 2 hours due to weather.
Thanks for that info KC135TopBoom, I had no idea it required 2 hours hold!!! WOW!
~H81
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 3163 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (1 year 17 hours ago) and read 5632 times:
I don't believe for a minute that B6 would be interested in flying to Hawaii. Would they not need to have a crew base or at least have a relief crew in Hawaii? That is assuming that they could make it from Longbeach with their current aircraft, which is where I would think that it would fly from, or perhaps SAN. The other problem as I see it would be that most Hawaii flying is low yield and they may not beable to compete with the other airlines.
HAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2465 posts, RR: 53 Reply 14, posted (1 year 16 hours ago) and read 5572 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6): Also going to an island destination you have to have enough fuel to fly to the high post or fix, then hold for 2 hours due to weather.
That rule only applies if there is no available alternate within range. If there is - for instance using Kalaeloa (old Barbers point naval station) or Maui or Kona or Hilo as an alternate for Honolulu - then that 2-hour rule doesn't apply. Even for islands with just one airport, such as with our flights to Pago Pago, American Samoa, we can use the Faleolo airport in Apia as the alternate as long as the forecast weather meets alternate minimums.
HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
B6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2767 posts, RR: 7 Reply 15, posted (1 year 16 hours ago) and read 5539 times:
Quoting brilondon (Reply 13): Would they not need to have a crew base or at least have a relief crew in Hawaii? That is assuming that they could make it from Longbeach with their current aircraft, which is where I would think that it would fly from, or perhaps SAN.
No crew base would be needed. The flight deck crew would most likely R.O.N. in Hawaii and fly the leg back to the mainland the next day. Cabin crew, I have no idea what they would do. Some cabin crews work VERY long flight blocks (JFK-SAN-JFK, LGB-ANC-LGB) that total over 12 hours. Maybe the cabin crew would work the round trip, or maybe they would R.O.N. with the flight deck crew in Hawaii and work the return flight the next day. LGB is currently a flight/inflight crew base and MX base so if this happened, it would probably be out of LGB, but as stated throughout this thread, it probably still just won't happen at this time.
Quoting HAL (Reply 10): When you create a business model that relies on one type of aircraft only, there are routes and destinations that simply can't (or shouldn't) be attempted. For B6, Hawaii is one of them.
...but, you make an interesting point. While B6 started as a single-fleet company, by 2005 they were a dual fleet (A320 & E190). Now we start looking at the near future (2013) and we see:
A320 (traditional...N503JB - N665JB)
A320 (enhanced...N703JB - N809JB which should be the last of the deliveries in 2012)
A320 (with new sharklets)
A321 (with new sharklets)
E190
....and then in the 2016 time frame you add the A320NEO.
So maybe once the fleet diversifies more that will open up the opporunity considering there will be multiple sub-fleets. Good point to bring up HAL, got my brain going a little!
~H81
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
CompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 870 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 16 hours ago) and read 5501 times:
Quoting boeingfever777 (Reply 4): B6 product is far better than the competition, and their are enough B6 fans to support this flight, it has been asked for before.
In a market extremely volatile to price and heavy on loyalty programs, this doesn't matter.
Product is essential in attracting high-revenue consumers. High-revenue consumers traveling to Hawaii will be sitting in First Class on United, Delta and American -- not staring at inoperative PTVs on JetBlue.
flyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 846 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 15 hours ago) and read 5338 times:
Does AS fly to the Caribbean? No, they are a west coast airline that focuses on people who live in that region. Will JetBlue fly to Hawaii? I doubt it, for the same reasons. Not enough demand for jetblue's target audience
homsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 797 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 13 hours ago) and read 5143 times:
Quoting flyby519 (Reply 17): Does AS fly to the Caribbean? No, they are a west coast airline that focuses on people who live in that region. Will JetBlue fly to Hawaii? I doubt it, for the same reasons. Not enough demand for jetblue's target audience
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 5751 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (1 year 13 hours ago) and read 5124 times:
Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 12): Sure we have a little more legroom, and the (3) movies would be free, but some airlines have AVOD (even if its for a fee) that would blow our offerings out of the water as far as IFE goes.
When I flew on a DL domestic 763 on SJU-ATL a few years ago the movies were free.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
redzeppelin From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 275 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3297 times:
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 20): Do you believe PTVs and free movies are a deciding factor for the general public when choosing transportation to Hawaii?
Nope. Most Hawaiian vacationers go for the best deal, and if there happens to be good IFE, they get excited and high-five their friends. People will look for a convenient itinerary with desirable times and connections, and might pay a little extra for those, but IFE is a bonus that most casual travelers won't think about until they are on the plane.
solarflyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 395 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2956 times:
Yeah, the reasons seem obvious in hindsight. Several good ones have been mentioned. On the other hand, I can see where west coast expansion is open. The flights to Anchorage make a lot of sense if they are pulling in a lot of cargo. Hawaii needs a lot of cargo too but the fact is that they cannot fit it into a A320.
SWALUV From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 85 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (12 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2048 times:
Are they going to use gate 12 because it doesn't look like there is ANY room there for a plane. The wing looks like it is over or very close the yellow line.
25 cloudboy: Is that really all you see between products? Live TV? Leg room is a BIG deal. That why you and other airlines can charge more for even a few more inc
26 B6JFKH81: No, LiveTV/IFE is NOT all I see between products which is why I went into legroom, leather seats, snack offerings, etc., and compared what we have to
27 werdywerd: no the a330 takes up two gates, so whichever gate HA pulls into on any given day, the neighboring gate will be unused
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