Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive  
User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2141 posts, RR: 14
Posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 18461 times:

Airbus is taking an extra €158 million charge linked to the costs associated with wing component cracking on its A380s with more costs excepted to come.

The latest charge covers repairs on 71 aircraft delivered and comes on top of a €105 million provision taken in March because of the same problem.

See : http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_05_16_2012_p0-457966.xml


Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30984 posts, RR: 86
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18376 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

It's still pretty much peanuts.

User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18349 times:

Well, it won't be Airbus that takes that hit. It will the company that produces the wings that have to pay up.

This wing crack subject is getting out of hand. And a bit boring.


User currently offline2175301 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1069 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18174 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
This wing crack subject is getting out of hand. And a bit boring.

Yeah, your right. Something that causes all the airlines to take their planes out of service for work a few extra days to a week for additional repairs and that has slowed the delivery of new A380's to way behind schedule is nothing more than a boring detail. I know Airbus is claiming that they can recover on the production schedule - but that is becoming harder to believe the longer this drags on.

Have a great day,


User currently offlinebigsmile From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 18049 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
Well, it won't be Airbus that takes that hit. It will the company that produces the wings that have to pay up.

So that will be Airbus then that has to pay up, or has something changed in the past 24 hours that Airbus UK does not produce the wings anymore.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30984 posts, RR: 86
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 17995 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
Well, it won't be Airbus that takes that hit.

As noted, Airbus UK assembles the wings, which explains why Airbus is taking a charge against earnings - the "hit".



Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
This wing crack subject is getting out of hand. And a bit boring.

There are a number of topics on this board that are getting out of hand and becoming boring.  


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 17978 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
Well, it won't be Airbus that takes that hit. It will the company that produces the wings that have to pay up.

Suppose they are legally responsible. Am I right in thinking that the ribs were defective but were not produced by BAE? BAE may have a slight problem trying to get $100's millions compensation from their supplier - I imagine that having to find compensation of that order would bankrupt the supplier.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5436 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 17932 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
It's still pretty much peanuts.

It may not be the apocalypse; but when the charge ate up more than half of EADS' quarterly profits, it ain't peanuts either. On a percentage basis, it's much worse than the trading loss at JP Morgan.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4737 posts, RR: 39
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 17859 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):

It's still pretty much peanuts.

It is. And Airbus always said that the current solution is an interim solution. So a final solution would always cost another amount of money. Considering the problem which they need to address the amount of money is almost negligible imho.  .

[Edited 2012-05-19 09:18:30]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30984 posts, RR: 86
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 17822 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting art (Reply 6):
Am I right in thinking that the ribs were defective but were not produced by BAE?

I will admit up front I have not been following the issue closely, but I believe that the issue was not that the components were defective, but that their assembly process stressed them to the point that it either introduced cracks or allowed cracks to develop once the part was subjected to in-service loads.

As such, Airbus was re-evaluating the assembly process so that said stresses would not be imposed. And I believe they have found that new process - hence the additional costs as they put it into place.


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2708 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 17496 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 8):
And Airbus always said that the current solution is an interim solution.

Exactly, that's what I find even more newsworthy. It was reported on a German aviation forum but at that time I didn't understand it: each A 380 delivered now will get only a temporary fix and later on the "final" fix. The same for those airframes already in service.


User currently offlineglideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 16067 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):

It's still pretty much peanuts.

Nah, Cashews bud. On the way to Brazil Nuts.   



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 16040 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
I will admit up front I have not been following the issue closely, but I believe that the issue was not that the components were defective, but that their assembly process stressed them to the point that it either introduced cracks or allowed cracks to develop once the part was subjected to in-service loads.

As such, Airbus was re-evaluating the assembly process so that said stresses would not be imposed. And I believe they have found that new process - hence the additional costs as they put it into place.

Thanks for that. Kind of raises the question, though, why did it happen on the A380 if it didn't happen before on other Airbus aircraft? They all have wings with ribs, don't they?

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 10):
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 8):
And Airbus always said that the current solution is an interim solution.

Exactly, that's what I find even more newsworthy. It was reported on a German aviation forum but at that time I didn't understand it: each A 380 delivered now will get only a temporary fix and later on the "final" fix. The same for those airframes already in service.

The new wings that will be built until the "final fix" will have an "interim fix" and will need to be reworked? I can see that if it will take some time to implement the "final fix" Airbus cannot stop wing production until the "final fix" arrives. Sounds expensive, all the same.


User currently offlineglideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15977 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):

This wing crack subject is getting out of hand. And a bit boring.

Really? What do you define as troubling?   



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2708 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15080 times:

Quoting art (Reply 13):
I can see that if it will take some time to implement the "final fix" Airbus cannot stop wing production until the "final fix" arrives.

Yes, this what happened. They stopped wings production (well, at least wings transportation to Toulouse) since end of March 2012. Middle / end of May 2012 Airbus commenced wings transports to Toulouse but at the same time they say the "final" / certified solution is not yet in place and will be only starting from end of 2012. Thus all the wings produced from now on until end of the year (at least 12 pairs) will require additional work after delivery to implement the "final fix".

I think this is why QR's CEO postponed delivery of their A 380s ("we don't want to let anybody crawl through our wings...") as reported in another thread.


User currently offlineflylku From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 808 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 15051 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
It's still pretty much peanuts.

Really? What is the gross margin on an A380? I am sure it a fraction of the 150 million Euro charge so they have basically eaten the profit on several frames. That gets my attention.



...are we there yet?
User currently offlineA320FlyGuy From Canada, joined May 2012, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9678 times:

I know that there have been reams and reams written about this issue, but I have constantly felt that this issue might be a bellwether of further issues to come with the A380. Airbus and EADS have stated that this issue is not a structural or safety issue....but we aren't talking about cracks in the lavatory door....we're talking about cracks. in Wings.

No matter how you pretty it up, this is a problem that isn't going to go away. When you look back, the L-1011 had similar issues with wing spar cracking. Granted, the L-1011 issue didn't appear until the aircraft were many years into service, but it was an issue that ultimately resulted in many aircraft being removed from service. I imagine that this issue will likely impact any potential freighter sales. If the passenger versions are experiencing this issue, I imagine that it will only be exacerbated in the Freighter.

Of course this is just my opinion and nothing more....but one can't help but wonder what other structural issues may exist in the A380 and simply haven't reared themselves yet.


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3550 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9611 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting art (Reply 13):
Kind of raises the question, though, why did it happen on the A380 if it didn't happen before on other Airbus aircraft? They all have wings with ribs, don't they?

I believe the earlier models had the feet machined in the rib.. however the other possibility is/was the way they attached the wing skins.. I may be alone on this one however there was a video of the wing assembly process that showed a fairly flat skin being wrapped onto the curved ribs and held in place with a hydraulic jacking system.. depending on how the rivets were installed extra forces could have affected the first hundred attachments. a poor example would be the torquing sequence on a vehicle engine head...


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30984 posts, RR: 86
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9596 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting art (Reply 13):
Kind of raises the question, though, why did it happen on the A380 if it didn't happen before on other Airbus aircraft?

That I cannot answer. I do not know if Airbus uses a new process to stretch the aluminum skin over the ribs or if it's just the sheer size of the A380's wings that introduced stresses that were not present with the smaller wings of the A330 and A340 families.


User currently offlineimiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 23 hours ago) and read 7142 times:

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 20):
I know that there have been reams and reams written about this issue, but I have constantly felt that this issue might be a bellwether of further issues to come with the A380. Airbus and EADS have stated that this issue is not a structural or safety issue....but we aren't talking about cracks in the lavatory door....we're talking about cracks. in Wings.

No matter how you pretty it up, this is a problem that isn't going to go away. When you look back, the L-1011 had similar issues with wing spar cracking. Granted, the L-1011 issue didn't appear until the aircraft were many years into service, but it was an issue that ultimately resulted in many aircraft being removed from service. I imagine that this issue will likely impact any potential freighter sales. If the passenger versions are experiencing this issue, I imagine that it will only be exacerbated in the Freighter.

Of course this is just my opinion and nothing more....but one can't help but wonder what other structural issues may exist in the A380 and simply haven't reared themselves yet.

In which case you're better off never flying again.

Barring the 787, there is not a single commercial jet type that hasn't been subject to ADs pertaining to material fatigue and cracking.

This AD was issued just last month for the 777:

SUMMARY: We are adopting a new airworthiness directive (AD) for certain The Boeing Company
Model 777-200, -200LR, -300, -300ER, and 777F series airplanes. This AD was prompted by reports
of cracks found in the Web pockets of the wing center section (WCS) spanwise beams. This AD
requires repetitive detailed inspections and high frequency eddy current inspections for cracks of the
WCS spanwise beams, and repair if necessary. We are issuing this AD to detect and correct cracking
in the WCS spanwise beams, which could result in reduced structural integrity of the wings.


http://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/US-2012-08-09

SUMMARY: We are adopting a new airworthiness directive (AD) for all Model 757 airplanes. This AD was prompted reports that several operators have found cracking in the front spar lower chord at the fastener locations common to the side link support fitting at wing station (WS) 292. This AD requires repetitive inspections for corrosion and cracking in this area, and corrective actions if necessary. We are issuing this AD to detect and correct such corrosion and cracking, which, if not corrected, could grow and result in structural failure of the spar.

http://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/US-2012-02-17

And to balance the field somewhat:

Two cases of broken Centre Wing Box (CWB) struts have been reported on
A320 aeroplanes.
Investigations indicated that strut thickness in the crack initiation area was
lower than specified in the production drawings. Only a limited batch of
aeroplanes is affected by this manufacturing defect.
This condition, if not corrected, could result in strut failure, reducing the
residual life of the remaining struts to below the initial Design Service Goal,
which would deteriorate the structural integrity of the aeroplane.
For the reasons described above, this AD requires repetitive Detailed Visual
Inspections (DVI) of the lower and upper ends of the CWB struts to detect
cracks and, depending on findings, accomplishment of associated corrective
actions.


http://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/11-091


User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2116 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 23 hours ago) and read 7144 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
That I cannot answer. I do not know if Airbus uses a new process to stretch the aluminum skin over the ribs or if it's just the sheer size of the A380's wings that introduced stresses that were not present with the smaller wings of the A330 and A340 families.

Could be a good point. It is a problem for the existing 380 operators as they wait the final fix, then we can put it all behind us. My big concern is if one of my flights gets changed from 380 to something else, as that something else just does not compare!!


User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2141 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 21 hours ago) and read 5729 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
It's still pretty much peanuts.

If you read the linked article in the thread starter carefully :

The provisional bill , including all A388 aircraft that will be produced in 2012, is already euro 260 million. ( $ 330 million).

NOT included yet :

- Aircraft to be produced in 2013 (almost all receive first the temporally fix and thereafter the final fix).

- Airline Compensation fees for all aircraft, with a known technical issue, that still have to be produced.

- Lower production rates in 2012 and 2013, due wing change incorporation at the production line.

- Airlines deferring deliveries until the "final fixed" wing is available. Delayed payments.

- Cancellations: If the world economy fails to recover from the present downturn in 2013, airlines can be tempted to use this issue as an excuse to cancel certain aircraft delivery positions to avoid large (advance)payments.


IMO the total bill could easily rise to $500 million or more and that's in my world a lot of peanuts. ( or in the aviation world approx. 2-3 discounted EK A388 aircraft)



Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlinedarreno1 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 4218 times:

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 19):
Barring the 787, there is not a single commercial jet type that hasn't been subject to ADs pertaining to material fatigue and cracking.

Except the 777 has been in service for about 17 years, the 757, about 30 and the a320, 25. The a380 has only been flying for about 5. That's the difference, IMO.



Nikon D7000 / Nikkor 105mm AF f2.8 / Nikkor 35 f1.8G / Nikkor 50 f1.8D / Nikkor 85mm / Nikkor 300mm f4 AF
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30984 posts, RR: 86
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 4186 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting darreno1 (Reply 22):
Except the 777 has been in service for about 17 years, the 757, about 30 and the a320, 25. The a380 has only been flying for about 5. That's the difference, IMO.

I would not be surprised if the 777, 757 and A320 all had ADs issued within their first five years of operation.


User currently offlineimiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 18 hours ago) and read 4110 times:

Quoting darreno1 (Reply 22):
Except the 777 has been in service for about 17 years, the 757, about 30 and the a320, 25. The a380 has only been flying for about 5. That's the difference, IMO.

The length of service for the type is irrelevant.The 77W had been in service with AF just over two years before the first wing cracks were noticed following corrosion on the forward wing-to-body fairings, resulting in an AD around Summer 2006.

[Edited 2012-05-20 08:35:03]

I seemed to have missed this AD applicable to the 77W/77L only (EIS 2004/2006 respectively).

SUMMARY: We are adopting a new airworthiness directive (AD) for certain Model 777-200LR and -300ER series airplanes. This AD requires doing a high frequency eddy current inspection for cracking of the keyway of the fuel tank access door cutout on the left and right wings between wing rib numbers 8 (wing station 387) and 9 (wing station 414.5), and related investigative and corrective actions if necessary. This AD results from reports of cracks emanating from the keyway of the fuel tank access door cutout of the lower wing skin between wing rib numbers 8 and 9. We are issuing this AD to prevent loss of the lower wing skin load path, which could cause catastrophic structural failure of the wing.
DATES: This AD is effective July 28, 2010.
The Director of the Federal Register approved the incorporation by reference of a certain publication listed in the AD as of July 28, 2010.


Just over 5 years from EIS.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...5774b00501512/$FILE/2010-13-03.pdf


[Edited 2012-05-20 08:42:57]

25 Post contains links darreno1 : I'd love to see this AD and the cost associated with the above. You make a good argument but we cannot neglect the seriousness of the cracks in quest
26 imiakhtar : My initial point seems to have been lost, ie ALL planes crack, regardless of whether they're manufactured by Boeing or Airbus. Undoubtedly, due to th
27 KC135TopBoom : Correct, it just matters where the cracks are
28 darreno1 : No need to apologize and yes I agree, regardless of manufacture ALL planes will develop fatigue cracks at some point. No argument there. However one
29 astuteman : BAE haven't been involved in Airbus for about 6 years now..... EADS bought them out in 2006. Rgds
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Airbus Traces A380 Wing Cracks To Manufacturing Pr posted Thu Jan 19 2012 04:38:08 by LXSWISS
Flying Sure Has Become More Expensive posted Thu Feb 26 2004 23:35:26 by Flyf15
Airbus Alters A380 Wing Due To Crack Issues posted Mon May 7 2012 00:58:34 by PlaneInsomniac
A380 Wing Documentary BBC2 13th Nov posted Thu Nov 10 2011 11:59:18 by GDB
How Can Heathrow Become More Efficient posted Mon Nov 29 2010 08:29:45 by speedbird9
A380 Wing Flex Compared To The 787 posted Sun Jan 31 2010 17:46:40 by A380900
UK Flying Just Got More Expensive. posted Sun Nov 1 2009 01:10:34 by Readytotaxi
Ryanair More Expensive Than BA - Sunday Times posted Sun Aug 9 2009 05:35:55 by Boeing74741R
Thai: Cancel 380s More Expensive Than Keeping Order posted Fri Jul 10 2009 18:27:50 by Kevin
UPS Quote - The 777F More Expensive Than The A380F posted Sun May 3 2009 06:17:10 by OyKIE
Airbus Alters A380 Wing Due To Crack Issues posted Mon May 7 2012 00:58:34 by PlaneInsomniac
A380 Wing Documentary BBC2 13th Nov posted Thu Nov 10 2011 11:59:18 by GDB
How Can Heathrow Become More Efficient posted Mon Nov 29 2010 08:29:45 by speedbird9
A380 Wing Flex Compared To The 787 posted Sun Jan 31 2010 17:46:40 by A380900
UK Flying Just Got More Expensive. posted Sun Nov 1 2009 01:10:34 by Readytotaxi
Ryanair More Expensive Than BA - Sunday Times posted Sun Aug 9 2009 05:35:55 by Boeing74741R
Thai: Cancel 380s More Expensive Than Keeping Order posted Fri Jul 10 2009 18:27:50 by Kevin
Airbus Traces A380 Wing Cracks To Manufacturing Pr posted Thu Jan 19 2012 04:38:08 by LXSWISS
Flying Sure Has Become More Expensive posted Thu Feb 26 2004 23:35:26 by Flyf15
Airbus Alters A380 Wing Due To Crack Issues posted Mon May 7 2012 00:58:34 by PlaneInsomniac
A380 Wing Documentary BBC2 13th Nov posted Thu Nov 10 2011 11:59:18 by GDB
How Can Heathrow Become More Efficient posted Mon Nov 29 2010 08:29:45 by speedbird9
A380 Wing Flex Compared To The 787 posted Sun Jan 31 2010 17:46:40 by A380900
UK Flying Just Got More Expensive. posted Sun Nov 1 2009 01:10:34 by Readytotaxi
Ryanair More Expensive Than BA - Sunday Times posted Sun Aug 9 2009 05:35:55 by Boeing74741R
Thai: Cancel 380s More Expensive Than Keeping Order posted Fri Jul 10 2009 18:27:50 by Kevin
Flying Sure Has Become More Expensive posted Thu Feb 26 2004 23:35:26 by Flyf15
Airbus Alters A380 Wing Due To Crack Issues posted Mon May 7 2012 00:58:34 by PlaneInsomniac
A380 Wing Documentary BBC2 13th Nov posted Thu Nov 10 2011 11:59:18 by GDB
How Can Heathrow Become More Efficient posted Mon Nov 29 2010 08:29:45 by speedbird9
A380 Wing Flex Compared To The 787 posted Sun Jan 31 2010 17:46:40 by A380900
UK Flying Just Got More Expensive. posted Sun Nov 1 2009 01:10:34 by Readytotaxi
Ryanair More Expensive Than BA - Sunday Times posted Sun Aug 9 2009 05:35:55 by Boeing74741R
Thai: Cancel 380s More Expensive Than Keeping Order posted Fri Jul 10 2009 18:27:50 by Kevin