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WN FA's Vote Down Overwater/Near International  
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 906 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13702 times:

From www.twu556.org

With 39% of the Membership voting the Overwater/Near International Flying Tentative Agreement was voted down.  The breakdown is as follows:

Eligible voters – 10047

Ballots cast- 3934

Percentage of Membership that voted – 39.16

YES – 1547 – 39%

NO – 2387 – 61%

[Edited 2012-05-21 11:16:52]


My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3106 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13681 times:

Link is not allowed.

Translate for us. What does this mean?

-Rampart


User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 906 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13628 times:

The tentative agreement to the side letter of the contract that covers overwater (Hawaii) and near international flying did not pass. I'm guessing they'll go back to the negotiation table.


My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1788 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13500 times:

I know Southwest won't come out and say it directly, but wasn't one of the reason they got the 738 for Hawaii?

User currently offlinewnflyguy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 506 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13467 times:

It means the TWU 556 and WN get to go back to the table and fix the the agreement. The last one had way to many loopholes for the WN to use crews in unfavorble working trips that take away the current contract gains in quality of life..Also means the rumored WN taking over FL SJU NOV service may have just got push back until 2013 unless the company and the union will move quickly to rework another side letter..wnfg

[Edited 2012-05-21 11:45:03]


my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13458 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Thread starter):
Percentage of Membership that voted – 39.16

Incredible...



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineWNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1444 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13350 times:

It's apparent that our FA's aren't ready to operate any of the Intl routes yet. FL can continue to enjoy them while the WN FA's educate themselves further. I'm disappointed.


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineJetBlueGuy2006 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1649 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13321 times:

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 4):
It means the TWU 556 and WN get to go back to the table and fix the the agreement. The last one had way to many loopholes for the WN to use crews in unfavorble working trips that take away the current contract gains in quality of life..Also means the rumored WN taking over FL SJU NOV service may have just got push back until 2013 unless the company and the union will move quickly to rework another side letter..wnfg

Does it also mean that the WN and FL groups must say separated for now, so the FL F/A's will be the ones flying to the international destinations?



Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 906 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13191 times:

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 6):

I agree. What part of it allowed the company to use us unfavorably? It's frustrating that people listen to people that think they know everything but don't take the time to read the information for themselves.

SJU doesn't require ETOPS to operate.



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3122 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13157 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 3):
I know Southwest won't come out and say it directly, but wasn't one of the reason they got the 738 for Hawaii?

I think they have said the 738 was to be used for the Hawaii market. It is my understanding the 738's are coming to WN with the appropriate equipment for WN to use them on overwater routes with ETOPS requirements.



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7063 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13063 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 2):
The tentative agreement to the side letter of the contract that covers overwater (Hawaii) and near international flying did not pass. I'm guessing they'll go back to the negotiation table.
Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 4):
It means the TWU 556 and WN get to go back to the table and fix the the agreement.
Quoting usflyguy (Thread starter):
Percentage of Membership that voted – 39.16

Being pickey but why exactly does WN have to re-negotiate and agreement when roughly 24% of the F/A's are against it, as this is a contract negotiation and not representative government, there should be something to get the others to pony up their vote either agreement or disagreement, not voting should not be an option.

If they go back to the negotiation table they will be doing so to hammer out an agreement based on 2,387 out of 10,047 members


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13013 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 9):
think they have said the 738 was to be used for the Hawaii market

I don't think that Southwest has ever said that.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3122 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13004 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 11):

I don't think that Southwest has ever said that

What other aircraft would WN use for their impending Hawaii ops? I have read several times here on A.net Hawaii ops would be 738's. I didn't say they would be exclusive to the Hawaii market, but I'm sure they will launch flights to the 50th state with the 738's they are currently recieving with overwater equipment .

[Edited 2012-05-21 14:38:21]


AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1925 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13008 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 3):
but wasn't one of the reason they got the 738 for Hawaii?

Yes. It's also the reason WN is spending a TON of money on ETOPS. Not good on the FAs part.



My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 12787 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):
Quoting usflyguy (Thread starter):
Percentage of Membership that voted – 39.16

Incredible...

Not really. Not voting is the same as a NO vote. So if youre against the TA, dont bother voting.

I think WN is putting on a happy face on what seems to becoming just another legacy airline.


User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2357 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 12683 times:

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 4):
It means the TWU 556 and WN get to go back to the table and fix the the agreement.

Only after they receive a loud negotiating table diatribe from the company negotiators about how they have wasted everyone's time and that the leadship apparently can not control their members. They will then ask for a revote. Then the company will get up and adjourn, for effect, saying as they go, "what a bunch of Mickey Mouse hacks. Can't even get the membership to the polls. 39% sheesh."

Union leadership should be ashamed.


User currently onlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5567 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 12677 times:

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 15):
Can't even get the membership to the polls. 39% sheesh
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 14):
Not voting is the same as a NO vote.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17348 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 12654 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 14):
I think WN is putting on a happy face on what seems to becoming just another legacy airline.

Minus all the pre-deregulation baggage   



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 12592 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 14):
Not really. Not voting is the same as a NO vote. So if youre against the TA, dont bother voting.

That was not indicated in the results. If a non-vote was counted as a no, it would have been 15% yes, 85% no. Either way, there was strong opposition.


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 12527 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 14):
Not voting is the same as a NO vote.

Ok.
I seem to recall that a few years back not voting was equivalent to a YES vote somewhere...
This may have been in relationship to voting in/out a particular union group. I know, different situation but confusing nonetheless...

[Edited 2012-05-21 15:23:19]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2357 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 12429 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

The company will still try to shove it down the union leaderships throat. All about leverage.

It may count that way, it does not necessarily mean that is the way the majority of the membership feels. That is unless there was a deliberate campaign by the union leadership to have the members not vote. Was there?


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12897 posts, RR: 100
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 12081 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 6):
It's apparent that our FA's aren't ready to operate any of the Intl routes yet. FL can continue to enjoy them while the WN FA's educate themselves further.

That amazes me. What exactly didn't the FA's like? If you ask for too much, than these *new* flights will not be profitable and that means WN shouldn't fly them. Ugh... A reason for FL flights...

I went through the TWU site to try and find the issues:
http://twu556.org/overwaternear-inte...tative-agreement-pairing-examples/

It seems to be over the 03:00 central time, carrying passports (required for all f/a), and some other minor issues.

I would really like to know what the issue was.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 14):
I think WN is putting on a happy face on what seems to becoming just another legacy airline.

I think WN has a window, but I hope their unions realize that the A320NEO will enable VX and B6 to also fly to Hawaii. Any delays strengthen AS in the islands. This is an era of 'first mover advantage.'

Quoting rj777 (Reply 3):
but wasn't one of the reason they got the 738 for Hawaii?

"Southwest Chief Executive Gary Kelly has said that the 737-800 could allow flights to Mexico, Canada, Alaska and Hawaii."

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/04...ines-attendants.html#storylink=cpy

Lightsaber

ps

I assume UA/CO has at least sent some nice flowers to the TWU as a 'thank you.'

[Edited 2012-05-21 17:08:07]


Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17348 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 11904 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
I think WN has a window, but I hope their unions realize that the A320NEO will enable VX and B6 to also fly to Hawaii. Any delays strengthen AS in the islands. This is an era of 'first mover advantage.'

I think the bigger problem is that it's really an era of lower cost advantage, and that ship has long sailed at WN



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinegothamspotter From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 10990 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 9):
I think they have said the 738 was to be used for the Hawaii market. It is my understanding the 738's are coming to WN with the appropriate equipment for WN to use them on overwater routes with ETOPS requirements.

It's clear that's what they plan on doing, but the airline has never admitted it publicly.


User currently offlineWNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1444 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 10838 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 14):
Not voting is the same as a NO vote.

Not for us it isn't. If you don't vote, it's simply not counted as anything. It's a simple tally of YES vs NO votes.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 8):
What part of it allowed the company to use us unfavorably?

Nothing that I could see. The company could already build pairings that went into a 3rd day and could already operate red-eye flights. All it takes is one LOUD pot-stirrer and a bunch of bobble-dead sheep who'll listen and BOOM you have a bunch of NO votes. As if the FA's know anything about Intl anyway.... sigh



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
25 Wingtips56 : I wonder if this will affect WN's plan to create an international hub at KHOU/Hobby. Is short-haul into Mexico (where nobody really wants to go curren
26 usairways787 : Southwest is not a legacy carrier.
27 Barney Captain : It's simple really. Changing the definition of ADG from Average Daily Guarantee to Average Duty Guarantee means they can schedule you for a 3 day tri
28 usflyguy : Oh, the misinformation...
29 skycub : I will tell you the "galley gossip" I have heard among my co-workers.... Many people I fly with voted no simply because they were unhappy with the WN/
30 skycub : filler delete.... filler filler filler[Edited 2012-05-21 20:19:36]
31 usflyguy : And if southwest hadn't expanded outside of Texas, they wouldn't be around still. If they hadn't expanded out of the southwest, they wouldn't be arou
32 N243NW : Do you think this might have been a contributing factor in the low voting turnout? Perhaps some crewmembers knew they wouldn't be bidding for those t
33 Post contains images MaverickM11 : I've long suspected that WN's culture and history would prove to be a double edged sword, and a big obstacle to overcome.
34 skycub : Ehhh... Pan Am had the issue of only being allowed to fly internationally for many many decades. They ordered a massive fleet of 747s just before the
35 gizmonc : After readying the HUGE post by SKYCUB, it is apparent that majority of the SWA FA's are unhappy. SWA has a very liberal policy when it comes to dropp
36 skycub : I never said that. I never said the majority was unhappy. I was speaking only for the people at my base. The people at MY base are not necessarily un
37 mayor : I don't think so. Isn't this the rule that the NMB changed just before the DL/NW elections, to where not voting didn't count as anything, as before n
38 Post contains images asteriskceo : Uhh—so much for refraining from commenting on ground operations contractual negotiations. You're cute when you're angry!
39 HPRamper : Don't forget now G4 starting service from even smaller markets to Hawaii which will even further dwindle the pool of potential passengers who would o
40 ASFlyer : Actually, this isn't true at all. In a contract vote, only the votes that are cast are counted. Therefore, if 2000 people of 10,000 voted and of that
41 skycub : "The plan in the beginning?" The plan in the beginning was to fly between Dallas, Houston and San Antonio. That was the plan in "the beginning." And
42 HPRamper : I was specifically referring to the comment about AirTran, which I quoted, hence I am talking about the AirTran buyout. I never said anything referri
43 SSTeve : LUV has a higher P/E than companies like GOOG. Investors expect it to either grow, or get much better margins. Either that, or the stock will tank. T
44 airportguy1971 : They are evolving into one. Here's to the beginning of the end of the VERY plain plane...
45 peanuts : Ok. I'm really curious now as to what the correct assumption is. Please, someone help...lol.
46 FlyboyOz : lol... I guess it's probably too long to fly to Hawaii
47 swafa : It is my impression that the low voter turn out was a result of indifference (for lack of a better word). Only a few of us have actual experience with
48 xdlx : Not so sure anymore....at least the only one doing things traditionally.
49 par13del : Staff usually have one paycheck, everything that affects it is regarded as pay, so unless ecah staff member has a lawyer in their back pocket to inte
50 bobnwa : Yes I am sure you have read it many times on A.net, but since when has that source become the official WN site.WN has never said it
51 lightsaber : I do not disagree with you. However, I believe if WN entered the markets first VX and B6 would be less likely to enter the markets. Now, with F9 orde
52 aviationbuff08 : Ok, but why order 738 with ETOPS equipment and certification if Hawaii isn't in the company plans? DL has an entire fleet of 737-700/800 that are not
53 Post contains links QANTAS747-438 : Ok, folks... lets put an end to this comment for good. WN has said SO many times about using the -800 for Hawaii. I did a Google News search and came
54 HiFlyerAS : I find this whole topic amazing for a couple of reasons. One is that the the WN FA's can hold their company hostage, telling them what aircraft they c
55 flyfree727 : Perhaps you do not understand labor contracts. WN can fly ANYWHERE they please, that is correct. But without crews, they'll carry no passengers. the
56 HiFlyerAS : Without PILOTS they'll carry no passengers. Since when do FA's dictate aircraft type and routes? Do the WN FA's actually have contract language that
57 WNCrew : That's because people at YOUR base are mostly still sitting weekday ready reserve and don't ever get any new flying. It's pretty stagnant. DAL and HO
58 QANTAS747-438 : These posts are starting to get personal and I think we should try to stay on topic, before it gets locked.
59 ouboy79 : They company has never been shy saying the -800s are going to permit expansion to markets outside the Lower 48...including but not limited to Hawaii.
60 lasmike : Sounds like tribalism to me. About 15 years ago, Herb said tribalism would be the undoing of his airline. Sad .
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