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717 And Large RJs For Delta! Other Tidbits..  
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 55011 times:

Hot off the press,

- DL has formally announced that they have "in principle" come to an agreement to lease 88 FL 717s. Config will be 12FC 15EC 83YC. They also said they plan on picking up about 70 more 76 seaters as they retire more 50-seaters to right-size the fleet.

- All merit and non-contract scale employees will receive another across the board raise in Jan 2013. This is on top of the raise coming in July. There was an annual employee survey conducted and the results sowed that everyone would rather more of their money coming in their regular check rather than depending on the uncertainty of profit shaing so the profit sharing calculation will be adjusted and base pay will go up.

I will not post the entire memo but here's a small piece explaining the 717 an large RJ deal..

Quote:
We’ve talked a lot about the steps we’re taking to continue improving the products and services we offer customers, to retire less efficient aircraft and maintain capacity discipline by continuing to right-size our fleet and network to match customer demand. As part of our work with the Delta pilots, we are making a major strategic shift in our mainline fleet – once again leading the industry. It is time to complete the dramatic reduction of 50-seat RJs and significantly increase and upgrade our mainline fleet.

First, we’ve reached an agreement in principle with Southwest Airlines and Boeing – to lease 88 Boeing 717 aircraft for the mainline that will replace inefficient 50-seat RJs. The Boeing 717 aircraft will be extensively refurbished, with new seats, galleys, in-flight Wi-Fi and cabin upgrades. Once refurbished, the aircraft will seat 110 passengers with 12 first class seats, 15 Economy Comfort seats and 83 economy seats. These aircraft will give our high value customers even more opportunities to upgrade to first class and Economy Comfort seats, extending our industry leading position as the U.S. airline with the most first class seats.

Second, Delta will increase the two-class 76 seat regional jet fleet by 70 airplanes, which will increase our total large RJ fleet from 255 to 325.

I think we can wave bye-bye to a very large part of the DCI CR2 fleet.

[Edited 2012-05-22 08:59:40]

[Edited 2012-05-22 09:08:48]

[Edited 2012-05-22 09:11:55]


What gets measured gets done.
369 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3408 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 55023 times:

Where'd you see that? Nothing on the company website or other usual outlets...


"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 54986 times:

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 1):

Check you delta.com email.

Mods, please don' delte i'm suea press release will come out in some minutes.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineDL WIDGET HEAD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2100 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 54984 times:

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 1):
Where'd you see that? Nothing on the company website or other usual outlets...

Company wide email just sent out by Ricahrd Anderson.


User currently onlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1912 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 54965 times:

This is sad... While I like the MD-95*, I was hoping the rumours circling around will turn out to be false and that Delta would order CSeries...

*) sorry Boeing, Mad Dog will ALWAYS be the Mad Dog!



Now get your f***ing Jumbo Jet off my airport!!! - AC/DC "Ain't No Fun To Be a Millionaire"
User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3408 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 54794 times:

Just saw it. Thanks, guys!


"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineBDL757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 54812 times:

I'm quite excited because we're (non-contract ppl like myself) getting a raise this coming July and now another one in January 2013!!

I'm also please to see a new mainline aircraft in the 110 seat range as this is perfect markets in NYC, DTW, and possibly LAX. My only question is: Is the company already assuming that the pilots are going to vote in favor of the current TA?


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5854 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 54731 times:

Some clever internal PR positioning to release this now. This will make the pilots look like the grinch to the entire rest of the company if they reject the TA.

User currently offlinenicksair From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 484 posts, RR: 45
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 54602 times:

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1624


That is the press release.

'2NW



Nicholas William Reed KSAN/KLAX/KSFO
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 54558 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
They also said they plan on picking up about 70 more 76 seaters



I'm sure the pilots will not be thrilled by this, I guess the 717 deal is DL's attempt to quell the negative RJ reaction.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineflyabr From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 54531 times:

Which 76 seater will Delta get 70 more of, the CRJ900 or E175??

User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 54466 times:

Quoting nicksair (Reply 8):

Thank you nick.

Fair use from above link..

Quote:
Delta to Take Delivery of Boeing 717 Aircraft Upon Ratification of Pilot Tentative Agreement
Delta to upgauge fleet while replacing less efficient aircraft
Pilot agreement and aircraft transactions provide value to Delta people, customers and shareholders
May 22, 2012



ATLANTA, May 22, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) will begin taking delivery of Boeing 717 aircraft as early as 2013 upon ratification of a new tentative agreement covering Delta's more than 12,000 pilots. The tentative agreement was approved on May 21 by the Master Executive Council (MEC) of the Delta Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), and now will be presented to pilots for review and ratification through June 30.

(Logo: http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20090202/DELTALOGO )

The tentative agreement provides career growth opportunities as well as pay and benefits improvements for Delta pilots, while providing Delta productivity gains and additional aircraft flexibility, including an opportunity to accelerate its domestic fleet restructuring to provide a better customer travel experience.

If ratified, the agreement will accelerate Delta's domestic fleet restructuring strategy. To this end, Delta has reached an agreement in principle with Southwest Airlines and Boeing to lease 88 Boeing 717 aircraft currently in service at Southwest subsidiary AirTran Airways that is conditioned upon pilot ratification of the tentative agreement. The aircraft will primarily replace inefficient 50-seat regional jets and some older DC-9 aircraft still in service, on a capacity-neutral basis.

The tentative agreement also provides Delta with additional flexibility to acquire up to 70 larger two-class, 76-seat regional jets as the Boeing 717 aircraft are delivered to Delta. Delta currently operates 255 larger two-class regional jets; the fleet will be increased to 325 aircraft.

"These actions pave the way for us to restructure and upgauge our domestic fleet, which will lower our costs, provide more pilot jobs and improve the onboard experience for our customers," said Delta CEO Richard Anderson. "The addition of the Boeing 717s, additional large regional jets and the planned replacement of 50-seat aircraft continue Delta's commitment to operating an efficient, flexible domestic fleet that offers customers even more opportunities to upgrade to our First Class and Economy Comfort cabins."

In addition to aircraft flexibility, the tentative agreement will provide for productivity enhancements as well as improvements to the total compensation package for Delta pilots, including increases to base pay. The agreement also provides for a modification of the profit sharing program for pilots so that it pays 10 percent of profits, compared with 15 percent today, on the first $2.5 billion of profits effective Jan. 1, 2013. The plan will continue to pay 20 percent of profits above $2.5 billion. A voluntary early retirement option recently offered to Delta's other employee groups also will be available to Delta pilots upon ratification of the tentative agreement.

"Delta, our pilots and ALPA continue to benefit from a very constructive, proactive relationship, one that is unprecedented in our industry," said Mike Campbell, executive vice president – Human Resources and Labor Relations. "This tentative agreement represents an investment in our pilots and our company as it gives Delta significant fleet flexibility, the ability to continue running a reliable operation for our customers, and a profitable enterprise for shareholders and for all Delta people. The fleet changes provided by this agreement, coupled with the productivity and profit sharing changes, cover the investments in our employees.

"We strongly support the Delta MEC's endorsement and are optimistic that Delta pilots will ratify the tentative agreement," Campbell said.

Pilots have approximately five weeks to review and ratify the tentative agreement. If approved by the June 30 deadline, the agreement would take effect July 1, 2012. The agreement becomes amendable Dec. 31, 2015.

Negotiating committees for Delta and ALPA announced on May 15, 2012, that a tentative agreement had been reached. During the next several days the tentative agreement was reviewed and subsequently approved by the Delta MEC on May 21.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 54480 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
They also said they plan on picking up about 70 more 76 seaters

I'm sure the pilots will not be thrilled by this, I guess the 717 deal is DL's attempt to quell the negative RJ reaction.

The CRJs don't make money at this fuel level. Excepting the profit sharing reduction, this is great for DL pilots. It is very bad for AirTran pilots as they will lose their seniority fence and fall to the bottom at WN.


User currently offlineDL WIDGET HEAD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2100 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 54382 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 7):
This will make the pilots look like the grinch to the entire rest of the company if they reject the TA.

No reason for them to do so. It's good for the pilots and it's good for the company.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12970 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 54346 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
L has formally announced that they have "in principle" come to an agreement to lease 88 FL 717s

Interesting. After years of DL watching them come and go with FL at ATL, now DL will be flying them!

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
I'm sure the pilots will not be thrilled by this, I guess the 717 deal is DL's attempt to quell the negative RJ reaction.

Indeed, if you follow the link to the presser, you will see it is titled Delta to Take Delivery of Boeing 717 Aircraft Upon Ratification of Pilot Tentative Agreement.

Not very subtle...

However the PR does go on and describe the agreement that the MEC has agreed to and the pilots will vote on:

Quote:

ATLANTA, May 22, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) will begin taking delivery of Boeing 717 aircraft as early as 2013 upon ratification of a new tentative agreement covering Delta's more than 12,000 pilots. The tentative agreement was approved on May 21 by the Master Executive Council (MEC) of the Delta Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), and now will be presented to pilots for review and ratification through June 30.

The tentative agreement provides career growth opportunities as well as pay and benefits improvements for Delta pilots, while providing Delta productivity gains and additional aircraft flexibility, including an opportunity to accelerate its domestic fleet restructuring to provide a better customer travel experience.

If ratified, the agreement will accelerate Delta's domestic fleet restructuring strategy. To this end, Delta has reached an agreement in principle with Southwest Airlines and Boeing to lease 88 Boeing 717 aircraft currently in service at Southwest subsidiary AirTran Airways that is conditioned upon pilot ratification of the tentative agreement. The aircraft will primarily replace inefficient 50-seat regional jets and some older DC-9 aircraft still in service, on a capacity-neutral basis.

The tentative agreement also provides Delta with additional flexibility to acquire up to 70 larger two-class, 76-seat regional jets as the Boeing 717 aircraft are delivered to Delta. Delta currently operates 255 larger two-class regional jets; the fleet will be increased to 325 aircraft.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinethreeifbyair From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 709 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 54132 times:

Quoting flyabr (Reply 10):
Which 76 seater will Delta get 70 more of, the CRJ900 or E175??

Please be the E175.

CR9s are better than CR2s, but the 175 blows then both away from a passenger comfort perspective.

The PR specifically states "regional jets" so I think we can rule out a Q400 or ATR-72 order.


Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
I think we can wave bye-bye to a very large part of the DCI CR2 fleet.

I seem to remember that some frames are nearing the CR2 design life. If so, some of those will obviously go, and I could see a lot of retirements when the others start bumping up against heavy checks.

This is obviously a minor consideration, but at certain airports a 76-seater will be a tight fit in the gate areas designed for 50-seaters. The CRJ-200 has a 69ft wingspan, vs. 81ft for a CR9 and 85ft for an E175.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6649 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 54122 times:

I hope DL puts AVOD on these aircraft, although it is unlikely due to these aircraft primarily being used to replace RJ flying.

Also, about the seats, will DL keep the existing Recaro seats that Airtran installed, or will DL install their own seats such as the Weber 5751 or B/E Aerospace Pinnacle?



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinecv640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 54116 times:

Quoting DL WIDGET HEAD (Reply 13):
No reason for them to do so. It's good for the pilots and it's good for the company.

Even with these aircraft there is no way to hide what this contract really is. Way too many loop holes, way short on compensation, I can't believe our MEC signed off on this. I guess they've just given up and want DPA on property.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17827 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 54049 times:

Quoting DL WIDGET HEAD (Reply 13):
No reason for them to do so. It's good for the pilots and it's good for the company.
Quoting cv640 (Reply 17):
Even with these aircraft there is no way to hide what this contract really is. Way too many loop holes, way short on compensation, I can't believe our MEC signed off on this. I guess they've just given up and want DPA on property.

What happens if the AMR contract comes in way below this DAL contract?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13551 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 53940 times:
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Please serve my crow well done with a Worcestershire sauce. I never thought this would happen.

This is out in the wild:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/del...lot-tentative-agreement-2012-05-22

Quoting flyabr (Reply 10):
Which 76 seater will Delta get 70 more of, the CRJ900 or E175??

Who will bid more aggressively?

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 15):
I seem to remember that some frames are nearing the CR2 design life.

It doesn't matter. DL cannot afford to subsidize the fuel of the CR2 fleet anymore. The cost per passenger is just too high. It is time to scrap CR2s and replace them with CR9s or E175s.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineBNAtraveler From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 412 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 53890 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 15):
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
I think we can wave bye-bye to a very large part of the DCI CR2 fleet.

I seem to remember that some frames are nearing the CR2 design life. If so, some of those will obviously go, and I could see a lot of retirements when the others start bumping up against heavy checks.

Sounds like the PNCL Ch.11 makes even more sense here (especially the DL $70+ million DIP financing) - they will dump CR2s and transition to large RJs through the bankruptcy process. EV/OO will probably keep CR2s for now and those will be the last to go.


User currently offlinecv640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 53888 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
What happens if the AMR contract comes in way below this DAL contract?

SWA can compete with us while paying their pilots 42% higher then us.

AA has a ton of problems, labor is just one of them, plus they will get a nice pay raise in a merger with USAirways


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 53816 times:

I don't understand, why are DL pilots willing to lay down on the 70+ seat RJ issue where as pilots groups at other airlines are ready to go thermal nuclear?


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinerl757pvd From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4718 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 53772 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 22):
I don't understand, why are DL pilots willing to lay down on the 70+ seat RJ issue where as pilots groups at other airlines are ready to go thermal nuclear?

Probably because they enjoy the stability of working for a profitable company. I think the way the RJ fleet is pegged to the mainline fleet makes sense and protects the pilots interests.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11979 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 53765 times:

I wonder how contingent this deal is on the pilots approving the TA. For instance, if the TA is rejected, does Delta have to pay some sort of break-up fee to Southwest/Boeing, or can they just proceed with the 717 leases anyway?

Either way - smart move on Delta's part to take advantage of a favorable situation to replace tons of uneconomic RJ flying with larger, more efficient, relatively young/low-cycle jets. The only question now becomes which markets are going to get cut over the next few years as Delta largely exits the 50-seat flying business. Much of that flying is likely to move up to 70-76-seaters or larger, but there are also routes Delta is flying today that I think will struggle to profitably fill anything even that large.


25 Acey559 : 9E stated that they will be a 50 seat aircraft airline coming out of bankruptcy. I think maybe they will be the ones flying the CR2 and everyone else
26 threeifbyair : Completely agree. With ~300 frames, though, it will take a while to wind down CR2 flying unless DL plans to drop a lot of those routes entirely in th
27 wingnutmn : I would gladly give up my job flhing for a regional if it meant the opportunity to fly at a stable major airline. If we give up 2:1 crj200 for 900's I
28 Coronado : This is positive to the mainline pilots, as any way you cut it the ratio of regional aircraft to mainline aircraft will shift close to 10% (88 717 a/c
29 CompensateMe : AVOD on 717 and larger RJ deployed on shorter hops? Seriously? Obviously you haven't flown an AVOD-equipped DL aircraft lately. If you had, you would
30 timf : The 9E fleet is newer than most of the EV/OO/OH fleets since NW was a relative latecomer to the RJ game compared to DL, so it would make sense for tho
31 rl757pvd : 70 new 76 seat RJs = 5320 seats 88 new 110 seat 717s = 9680 seats Total = 15,000 seats "replaced on a capacity ceutral basis" 15,000/ 50 = 300 -50 sea
32 Post contains images KingAir200 : OH is down to only relatively old 100s. OO's newest was delivered in 2003 and they've picked up several 100s that have left OH in the last 6 months.
33 Josh32121 : Won't the 717's be used to replace DC9-50's, too? That wasn't specifically mentioned, but haven't the -50's been on the chopping block without a clear
34 1337Delta764 : Actually, I had an AVOD 738 on PHX-JFK on an overnight flight last Thursday/Friday. While most people were sleeping in the flight, I saw a lot more p
35 PSU.DTW.SCE : A lot of 50 seat RJs were planning to leave the fleet in the next 3-7 years anyways, however there will still likely be a fleet of 75-100 left by 2020
36 Post contains links lightsaber : It looks like the pilots have agreed: http://www.ajc.com/travel/delta-pilot-deal-allows-1443590.html Per Wikipedia, I count 348. Would DL really keep
37 dtw9 : Not yet. The MEC agreed, the pilots have yet to vote
38 Coronado : There will probably be 17, or 18 or perhaps 19 DC9-50 frames in operation throughout this summer with an announced retirement date stretched out to 2
39 cv640 : We won't even start voting on it for at least a week, so no one other then our leadership has agreed.
40 mayor : Still has to be voted on..............
41 capitalflyer : Seems ditching the 50-seaters in favor of larger planes flies in the face of what had seemed to be the trend of increasing frequency. Larger planes on
42 CompensateMe : No, it's all about making money, so unless those "conveniences" are drawing a premium. I travel frequently and noticed that since the introduction of
43 LHCVG : Remember though - CR9s are said to have somewhat better economics for the airline than E-Jets. That may play trump in the final decision (accounting
44 1337Delta764 : But there are still enough people who use the system that makes its installation worthwhile. Plans have already been finalized to have AVOD factory-i
45 Post contains links ulfinator : The blog posting I saw related to this topic has a very interesting typo in it. Check out the second to last paragraph. Apparently the "The 717s have
46 aloha73g : The 717 is a great plane! I love flying on them as a passenger on HA's interisland flights and also enjoyed working them as an FA. Will be nice to see
47 1337Delta764 : I remember hearing that NW preferred the E-175 over the CR9. This could also be a factor as well.
48 CompensateMe : The longest 717 flights will likely be 2.5-hours, with most flights shorter than that; the 739 will be operating many flights 4-hours in duration or
49 Post contains links MountainFlyer : Several articles (including the one below) mention the 717's as being replacements for the remaining DC-9s, so it is not all to replace CR2s. Also, t
50 vatveng : Can they at least turn the XM back on?
51 United_fan : Glad to see it's official. Looking forward to seeing the 717 in DL colors @ ROC.
52 1337Delta764 : I believe the XM system requires DL to pay royalty fees to LiveTV since they provided the system. Perhaps DL could use the existing wiring though to
53 Post contains links MountainFlyer : WSJ link won't work in here for some reason, but Bloomberg is also saying they will be subleased. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...-boeing-717-
54 PSU.DTW.SCE : There will not be AVOD or any type of IFE on 717s. Wifi, yes. Passengers generally prefer the E175 over the CRJ-900, primarily due to the larger cabi
55 freakyrat : Quoting commavia: "Either way - smart move on Delta's part to take advantage of a favorable situation to replace tons of uneconomic RJ flying with lar
56 stlgph : Bloomberg is also saying transition plan is 3 717's per month.
57 MLI717fan : It'll be great to see the 717s continue to buzz around ATL. Does anyone else see the irony in that it's agreed among many on this forum that the 717 w
58 freakyrat : Quoting commavia: "Either way - smart move on Delta's part to take advantage of a favorable situation to replace tons of uneconomic RJ flying with lar
59 N471WN : And of course the incredible irony is that Delta watched their old DC-9's come back to Atlanta as Critter Jets flying for the new start-up carrier Val
60 JetBlueAUS : I think this is a fantastic move made by Delta management in order to operate an efficient, profitable fleet. However how is this affecting AirTran p
61 1337Delta764 : Back to the subject of seats, will Delta keep the existing Recaro Y seats installed by AirTran, or will DL install their own such as the Weber 5751 or
62 Noise : When they say 50-seat RJs, do they mean both the CRJ-200 and the ERJ-145???
63 freakyrat : Delta is going to extensively remodel these jets (717's) with new interiors and Wi-FI.
64 Post contains images diverdave : Not to mention that Delta's AVOD systems are buggy and don't work much of the time. Indeed! David
65 PHLBOS : I wouldn't go that far. Last I checked, 717 production was terminated years ago. All this DL deal does is keep many of the existing 717s flying in the
66 flyboy80 : It will be interesting as more details develop. I wonder what type of distribution we'll see on this aircraft in the Network. Of course everyone is gu
67 LHCVG : Indeed, as others have noted. I would be interested to know the cost delta between the two though, if it's significant or pretty minor and situationa
68 1337Delta764 : Really? On my past DL AVOD flights the system worked flawlessly. DL's AVOD system is actually one of the more reliable systems out there; much more r
69 gdg9 : How many TWA 717-231s did AirTran take up? Based on some quick research it looks like 23, is that accurate?
70 Post contains links cessna2 : WN's press release has more information in regards to timeline and they also confirm the aircraft will be subleased. Article here: http://www.swamedia
71 catiii : In what ways? Compete with you how? I'm pretty sure SWA can't take me from, say, Mobile to Dubai.
72 Post contains images lightsaber : Thank you for the clarification. The don't. Why? That is a healthy rate. Sadly true. Either grow or be dropped. It is ironic. What I find interesting
73 bobnwa : [ What new customers could there be if the 717 production line has been shut down for quite a while.
74 litz : Lease customers, I would assume, for existing examples of the type. Like the 88 headed to DL.
75 Post contains images MaverickM11 : WN can't seem to make money on the same levels as DL either Sure. Now the pilots just have to agree to it, and generally speaking, given the choice o
76 flightsimer : And start the "When will delta retire the MD-90/717's?" threads now that the DC-9's have replacements lol. Glad to see this has finally been announced
77 DLX737200 : Pilots on another forum seem to think this is a bad deal. From what I read, they feel DL will use these 88 717s to replace older narrowbodies in the
78 1337Delta764 : I also wonder what will be the ship numbers of these aircraft. The N-numbers will likely remain the same, but Delta will have to assign ship numbers t
79 FlyASAGuy2005 : Hmmm...let me ask you this. How often do you fly on DL 75Xs, 73Gs, or 73Hs? "Doesn't work much of the time". As much as I fly on DL (can't even count
80 sxf24 : The size of the 70-76 seat fleet is based on the size of the mainline flight. The only reason additional 70-76 aircraft are discussed is because the
81 Post contains links and images lightsaber : Boeing will still have lease returns to deal with. With the 88 spoken for, customers will be *far* more likely to lease a 717 than wait for an E-jet
82 seabosdca : Quite surprised this appears to be a lease of all 88 frames rather than a purchase, or at least a partial purchase. That doesn't really match DL's sty
83 1337Delta764 : BTW, I was told at FT that DL will not be keeping the existing AirTran Recaro Y seats; DL will install their own seats. Most likely it will be either
84 odysseus9001 : I also travel frequently and I see a lot of people using PTV. One thing I have noticed is that there is much more advertising on PTVs, such as for Li
85 KFLLCFII : What would make leasing them be a more attractive option than buying them outright from Boeing under a massive sweetheart deal? Why wouldn't all parti
86 rj777 : So are the 717s pretty much going to replace the older DC-9s?
87 LAXtoATL : We don't know the terms of the deal. There a lot of things that would make leasing more attractive than buying. First of all if the lease rates are v
88 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : As Boeing really does NOT want to lease these 717s for less than what AirTran was paying, I think Southwest is taking a hit and leasing them to Delta
89 tztristar500 : What cloud are you talking about? I've heard nothing about issues with 717 support. I wouldn't consider DL some sort of 'savior' for the type. Withou
90 Flaps : Which seat is used on the MD90? Whichever it is I hope that the MD90 seat isn't destined for the 717's. I find them to be on par with a park bench.
91 dl021 : has anyone else mentioned that we can finally retire those NW should buy the 717 threads?
92 PIEAvantiP180 : Well we all know that the 717 fleet at WN was going to start coming at the end of their lease in either 2015 or 2017, not sure what year exactly, but
93 PSU.DTW.SCE : Yes and no. DL currently has ~18 DC-9-50s still in service. The 717 is meant to be replacement capacity primarily for the remaining DC-9s, and for fu
94 SESGDL : This is incredibly exciting and hopefully the beginning of the end of the constant downguaging and "right-sizing" that has taken place over the last d
95 peanuts : Also, this should bring a little peace of mind to the folks that were doubting DL's LGA intentions. Now that DL has, once again, confirmed the importa
96 burnsie28 : Would love to see GFK get these birds.
97 MaverickM11 : I could see it replacing some 319s too; not sure if that's the plan though.
98 Coronado : Perfect aircraft to serve SRQ from DTW, MSP, LGA. There will be no AirTran/southwest presence there past mid Aug 2012.
99 Post contains images peanuts : I can see what you are thinking but it could also lead to more extreme decisions later on. Currently, DL has a larger range of aircraft (capacity) to
100 PSU.DTW.SCE : No A319s are leaving the fleet anytime soon. The oldest A319s are from 1999. Yes, but a bulk of the 50 seat RJ fleet is going to be parked in the nex
101 DeltaRules : This was the first thing that came to my mind. The planes that replaced Delta's DC-9s at FL will end up with Delta.[Edited 2012-05-22 20:41:21]
102 mayor : What is the hot & high performance of the 717? Is it worth it to fly it on routes out of SLC?
103 SSTeve : But A320s surely are within a few years...?
104 PIEAvantiP180 : Yes they are but that's what the 737-900ER will be for, to replace early built 757, 767 domestic, and A320.
105 Coronado : Strategically within 2 years Delta can elect to grow their mainline fleet by 10% to take advantage of: 1. WN difficult integration with AirTran. At a
106 vatveng : Not great. They didn't handle Denver very well, had to leave pax behind when FL used them on DEN-ATL.
107 mayor : So, that pretty well rules out summertime ops in SLC on the intermountain routes.
108 DTWSXM : I was thinking the same thing but in terms of the DC9-30s that were parked soon after the NW merge. Delta retired paid for 110 seat DC-9-30s and are
109 catiii : Well not necessarily. If they took a penalty going to ATL would that mean in would so the same on some of those old shorter SLC 727 routes to Bozeman
110 FSDan : Actually, not that many. A lot of the new LGA flying is on CR7/CR9/E70/E75. And it seems that most of the 50-seaters will be ER4s (which I prefer to
111 aviationbuff08 : Well with DEN-ATL nearly 1200 miles and most of the routes that they would be used for out of SLC are 500-700 mile range and wouldn't likely leave pa
112 Post contains links lightsaber : The lack of engine PIPs has been a major issue with the 717. DL demanded and received some engine upgrade (I'd love to know the details) to extend th
113 BDL757 : What about sending some of the 717s to LAX to maybe up-gauge or introduce some markets?
114 PHX787 : I saw on Wiki that this purchase was to "replace the DC-9 fleet" but I know DL doesn't have 88 DC-9s....what will DL do with all of these 717s? What r
115 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Delta has over 100 MD-80s along with about 20 DC-9-50s.
116 laca773 : It seems the best overall 76 seat a/c for them to go with will be the E75. It allows DL to fly longer, thin routes the CR7/CR9 are not able too. At t
117 ouboy79 : Lot of assuming in your post. We'll probably see lease rates discussed once DL ALPA agrees. I don't see why WN would lease them out at a loss. I woul
118 super80 : What are the chance that Delta will put the B717 in the LGA hub? I think it will be a good fit for some east coast flying from their new LGA hub? thou
119 PIEAvantiP180 : Spot on. If this deal goes thru DL will be the only airline to claim that over 1100 aircraft, probably 95% of their fleet will have fist class on the
120 nwaesc : As others have noted, probably several ex-LGA routes. I also think will see some deployed ex-ATL to markets such as SAV may see some. I also expect t
121 SkyTeamTriStar : Who's going to fly these 717s? Did somebody already post something about that? Will DL train their Pilots to fly them or take-on FL Pilots who already
122 diverdave : I fly at least monthly thank you very much. Out of my last four flight with AVOD, one was dead (A330), and another one (757) reset itself about every
123 skyymarc : This industry never ceases to amaze me. When I saw this come to pass my thoughts mirrored the quotes above. I remember while working some of our firs
124 FSDan : Probably a lot of filling in on former/current DC-9 routes, plus some new stuff from LGA. I think all of the following are possibilities: MSP-YWG, MS
125 bobloblaw : 1. I think the 717 will be flying too short LOH for AVOD 2. AVOD is soooooo 2006. The future is using your mobile device to log on to the airline's i
126 jetlanta : When has anyone at flyer talk.com had a positive opinion about anything? If you are doing your market research there, you don't know anything.
127 1337Delta764 : I have went over that myth several times already. AVOD isn't going anywhere. While I agree that it is unlikely that Delta will install it on the 717
128 NASCARAirforce : Not sure if anyone else answered this for you, I tried scrolling down. Delta actually owns a lot of the CRJs and they would sub lease them to Mesaba
129 MountainFlyer : Nearly every article on the subject makes light of the fact that the 717 purchase will be used to eliminate some 50-seat jets in addition to replacin
130 lat41 : This bodes well for the medium cities on the DL system who were faced with shrinking choices on lower density routes and off peak times as the origina
131 diverdave : I'm not doing my market research there. I'm offering my own experiences, including two this year and also getting 15K miles unsolicited late last yea
132 MaverickM11 : The 319 is newish and long range but the overwhelming majority of 319 departures are well within the 717 range, and NW was pretty quick to get rid of
133 Post contains images KingFriday013 : Something to consider for the IFE argument: PTV-style IFE isn't going anywhere until either a) PED batteries become more advanced, and/or b) regular 3
134 1337Delta764 : If you think Delta's Panasonic system is unreliable, then you would have absolutely hated QF's old Rockwell Collins system. That was one of the most
135 Post contains images NWADC9 : Another interesting tidbit, they would operate a sample from each member of the DC-9 family: DC-9-50, MD-88, MD-90, 717. Don't know of any other airl
136 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : If Delta acquires The Boeing 717, MD-95, they will have every model of the DC-9,except the DC-9-21.
137 1337Delta764 : Delta never operated the MD-87, actually.
138 Post contains images CompensateMe : The touch system is most definitely buggy. Although it's usually operable, the touch screen can be extremely sensitive. Countless times I've given up
139 mayor : For some reason this sticks in my mind, but I can remember from the 727 weight and balance manuals, that at SLC, a 727-200 took a 1000 lb. weight pen
140 Post contains images MLI717fan : While they're all twins, DL will be operating with a fleet of some of the more unique versions of common jets.... MD-90-30 B-717-200 B-757-300 B-767-4
141 milesrich : To my knowledge, Vidalia, GA, the home of sweet onions has never had scheduled airline service, and is served through SAV. Were you referring to Vald
142 PSU.DTW.SCE : The situation is much more complicated that that and the draw-down on 50 seaters will depend on multiple factors. - Aircraft that are "owned" by DL a
143 PSU.DTW.SCE : NW was able to shed excess/ high ownership cost aircraft in Ch. 11. Additionally they had an opportunity to sell some newer A319s. There was demand (
144 1337Delta764 : When the IFE works, most people simply aren't vocal about it. Fact is, DL's IFE system is one of the more reliable systems out there.
145 Tan Flyr : any speculation on cities that may get a return of mainline service to any of those hubs? Places like FWA, SBN, Etc. There are a number of quality pl
146 bobnwa : Where are getting this information from, or is that just your opinion that Delta's IFE is one of the most reliable.
147 1337Delta764 : Well, it sure beats any Rockwell Collins system in reliability, that is for sure.
148 Post contains links Web : DL is already on it; they are launching LGA-SRQ on December 15: http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1621
149 frmrCapCadet : Res the IFEs and Wifi/ pads dispute. If passengers were offered the choice of IFE versus Wifi plus charging station what would the vote be? For me a n
150 PPVRA : Well, Embraer's backlog is down, so DL may not have to wait all that long. Perhaps a timely chance to get good pricing too. . .
151 TVNWZ : Then I must be the unluckyest Delta FF flying today. Mine hardly ever works when I go to use it. YMMV. I also am very happy DL is getting these plane
152 1337Delta764 : But not everyone is willing to spend the money on a tablet. Unless Delta gives huge incentives for everyone to buy tablets, AVOD is here to stay. Bas
153 CompensateMe : Who implied such? Notebook computers, smart phones and tablets have enjoyed explosive growth in popularity in recent years; for many people, they pro
154 bobnwa : I guess you would know since you seem to be an expert on AVOD, IFE and all thngs concerning the B764.
155 Post contains links vatveng : It was in 2003, so I don't remember. But I do remember the gate agent begging for volunteers on a scorching July afternoon. "Due to the heat outside
156 1337Delta764 : So then, first, explain why I saw more people using the IFE on my flight than I saw using their laptops or tablets? Second, most people don't use on-
157 N766UA : How could you possibly know that? Obviously, if a plane has AVOD installed, then 100% of the pax will have access to it. However, in order to have ac
158 catiii : I fly 90% of the time for business, and when I do use wi-fi I use it 100% of the time for entertainment.
159 Revelation : I think this IFE vs WiFi death match has lost touch with the main topic of DL's plans for the 717..... Maybe it's time for a separate IFE vs WiFi deat
160 freakyrat : TanFlyr (Reply 146) "any speculation on cities that may get a return of mainline service to any of those hubs? Places like FWA, SBN, Etc. There are a
161 N766UA : I don't even understand what the argument is? Airlines provide (or will soon provide) both.
162 Delimit : Being Your Own Screen is seen as something of a threat by AVOD enthusiasts. I think tablets and wifi are probably the way forward from a cost perspect
163 N766UA : What the hell is that? People seriously can't bring a book or look out the window? And who doesn't own at least an iphone anymore? Are there seriousl
164 Post contains images Delimit : Just think of it as a corrolary of Rule 34 (google it). If it exists, there is someone willing to obsess over it. And anyway, who are we to judge?
165 catiii : Correct. I do wonder what DL will do with some of these smaller cities in GA and around the SE. I can't imagine they can support CR7/CR9 service: CSG
166 N766UA : I suppose! I just don't understand obsessing. I use AVOD, my iPad, iPod, a book, and the window regularly, depending on what's available at the time.
167 AVLAirlineFreq : While the economics are certainly different, many of those markets had multiple ATR72 flights on DL just a few years ago. They just won't have as man
168 msp747 : For purely selfish reasons, I'd love to see the 717 on the MSP-BOI route. Back in the NW days, the route was flown by A320's. After the merger, it was
169 srbmod : Please stick to the topic. The entire IFE discussion is OFF TOPIC and if it continues, this thread WILL BE LOCKED. If you want to discuss IFE and WIFi
170 CIDFlyer : Im hoping CID will see a return to some mainline with the 717's or at the least some CR9's/7's or E75's. We used to get DC9's/E75's and CR9's from NW
171 PSU.DTW.SCE : DL would send an A319 instead of a 717 if they wanted a ~125 seat aircraft in the market. The route profile of MSP-BOI is more suited to the economic
172 catiii : Right, but the ATR's are gone and with the 50 seaters going too, and the fact that many of these markets have 2 or 3 flights per day, it does make me
173 mayor : Where does the CR7 fit in all of this?
174 tztristar500 : And as I responded, those 21 are not permanently stored (6 just were retired from Turkmenistan and the rest are allocated for Volotea and will be rea
175 dtw9 : It's interesting to note that prior to merging, NW at one time had 160 DC-9's in their fleet and DL had 136 MD-80/90 in theirs, for a total of 296 DC'
176 FSDan : DL generally puts mainline on that route during the summer. Looking at June/July there will be 2x CR9s and 2x 319/320.
177 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : I was glad to learn the agreement in principal was officially announced to the public... This confirms the scenario I shared in the part 3 rumor threa
178 DeltaL1011man : No MD-81s or MD-83s. The first few(8) MD80s were 82s that were converted to M88s later in life.
179 jporterfi : I imagine some of those like VLD and MEI will be reduced in frequency or have CR2 service. As far as HSV, it currently receives DC9 service as well a
180 Airport : I was actually going to say, the 717 seems perfectly suited for the SLC-BOI route, which sees a mix of 757s/320s/CR9s/E75s all of which seem like a b
181 PIEAvantiP180 : Wiki seems to not have a correct number of MD90s in DL fleet. How many are currently in operation? What is the total current number of planes in oper
182 nwaesc : I believe there are 41 total?
183 SkyTeamTriStar : I want to find this out, too. The Fleet Capsule; as it was called a long time ago on delta.com, only gets updated every 4-7 months. Come on, DL! Geez
184 AVLAirlineFreq : I suspect DL will keep some CR2s in the fleet to serve those markets that only receive three flights or so per day. (I hadn't initially realized that
185 Coronado : So right now the way I read it is the only pending item to fully make this purchase(or lease transfer or however it is finally structured) for the 717
186 Mir : I wouldn't read too much into that - different business models. Same reason WN can make money without charging bag fees, but DL can't. -Mir
187 panamair : WN is barely making any money with some bag fees (from the FL side of the house). In Q1 2012, an operating profit excluding specials of $10m (a 0.3%
188 PSU.DTW.SCE : The A320s are going to leave the fleet at the end of their usable life. Some are rapidly approaching the point where they are reaching expensive over
189 Post contains images CRJ900 : When NWA ordered 36 x CRJ900, they also took options for 96(!) more and when DL ordered 30 they took options on 30 more, IIRC. Even if half of those o
190 ouboy79 : You could almost argue that any individual/specific source provided the boost for WN's profit in Q1.
191 timf : It looks like #41 (N961DN) is entering service today. There are 10 that have been delivered but are still in mods, and 14 ex-JAL aircraft yet to be d
192 MountainFlyer : At least for the summer months, two of the four flights a day from MSP-BOI are still mainline with usually either A320 or A319. I have seen a few of
193 TVNWZ : I have flown the 737-800 on that route extensively. Take the late night flight out and the ungawdly early first flight back in the morning. I too lov
194 sevenfeet : As a regular Delta passenger, I'm happy to see this happen since it means that more of the CRJ200s end up being soda cans. The CRJ200 is the bane of m
195 PSU.DTW.SCE : Turnover of FAs is extremely high at regional airlines. It is unfortunetely not a career. Most can make more money at Starbucks. Plus with some of th
196 iceberg210 : I've honestly always thought the 717 was the perfect aircraft for Boise, and when Southwest bought AirTran I was really hoping they'd keep them for t
197 Post contains images lightsaber : Fair point. My point is just that if a large body were to be parked, it would make it tough to place any remaining examples. I believe we are in over
198 seabosdca : Are there any parts from DL's refurbished DC-9 interiors that can help support a DL 717 fleet? Superficially, the two interiors look very similar if
199 1337Delta764 : They are not exactly the same, although I think they were made by the same manufacturer. Some of the differences include the PSUs and the bin latches
200 tztristar500 : No, I don't believe so. I'm not aware of who designed the NW DC-9 interiors, but they started well before the 717 came out. McDD outsourced the 717 i
201 Kcrwflyer : It cost's about the same to fly a 717 and a 73G, the 73 just gives you 20 more seats..almost for free. That said, It's not like there are a ton of ro
202 Coronado : I have a hard time accepting that a 70 ton (MTOW) 73G costs ''about the same'' to fly as a 54 ton (MTOW) 717, not when fuel is still way over $3.00/g
203 cbphoto : Talked to a lot of DL pilots this past week while jumpseating and not a single one said they liked this TA! Don't be surprised if this does not pass!
204 seatback : I was hoping this would mean more mainline out of CVG We're flying to DEN from DAY in July.
205 iceberg210 : Very true, my point was more along the line of "opportunity cost" than anything. Especially for a market like Boise where those extra 20 seats will r
206 rl757pvd : Wouldnt this require DL to reduce the number of large RJs? As i recall the size of the large RJ fleet is dependant on the mainline fleet size. So how
207 mcg : I'm curious about SLC to Montana routes. Some, like MSO, BZN and BIL can probably support 70 seaters. Others, like GPI, HLN and GTF probably can't.
208 Cubsrule : There's a fair amount of seasonal variation in some of those markets - and IDA might be another that's not in Montana but has similar dynamics. Of co
209 Post contains images mayor : Now, wouldn't that be foolish for DL to park 50 MD-88s with 88 717s coming on property? Perhaps you should read the entire deal. Another would be SUN
210 727forever : This is incorrect. The TA places a hard cap on total RJ's and a ratio'd effect on the number of 76 seat RJ's. I realize that most folks here are goin
211 AM744 : But isn't the price tag or lease lower for a 717?
212 dtw9 : It will pass Under the new scope rules, when mainline aircraft are removed, DCI 76 seaters have to go also, on a one for one basis. Kind of silly to
213 MSPNWA : Does anyone really believe that in this tough airline economic environment that a 110-seat aircraft flying under mainline pay scales will replace CRJs
214 freakyrat : Yes in this tough airline economic environment the 717 is cheaper to run than CRJ's. Airtran already proved it when they had Air Wisconsin flying RJ's
215 mcg : So is the proposed pilot contract for pre-merger DL pilots only or does it include all DL pilots?
216 fpetrutiu : I am not sure that is correct. The 717 (RR BR715-A1-30 engines) hae 18,500 lbf thrust each lifting about 100,000lbs (MTOW). The 73G has 19.5 to 27.3
217 CompensateMe : With over 80 frames, the "small minority" of 319/320 aircraft is nearly twice the size of the current MD-90 fleet. And much like the MD-90 fleet, it'
218 1337Delta764 : Yep, trip costs for the 717 are indeed lower. Now if we were talking about the 736 it might be another story.
219 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : At present, a total fleet of 65 will be in service by EOY 2013. More than half of the fleet is approaching the end of their useful life. This leaves
220 yellowtail : are these 717s over water equipped?
221 1337Delta764 : I know that most 717s would be based out of ATL and DTW, however, I am not sure if we should rule out SLC. The 717 might work well on routes such as S
222 tztristar500 : Currently no and I doubt DL would make any so equipped as rafts would take up bin space.
223 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : Mods, please accept the below responses, as I believe they are relevant to how the overall fleet structure will change at DL, with the 717 acquisition
224 TrijetsRMissed : Perhaps, since these routes are short enough to not have terrible effect from the hot and high environments. But I think they'll largely be based eas
225 PIEAvantiP180 : It includes all DL pilots, since pre merger DL and NW pilots have been flying on one seniority list for a few years now. The only thing that is still
226 CompensateMe : Retire the early A320 deliveries and there's still more than 20 in the fleet -- DOUBLE the 73G type. Any other faux arguments? (To suggest the 320 sh
227 Kcrwflyer : The two models of 717 are 110 and 121,000 MTOW respectively. I think the 73G is 150ish. A heavy 717 is probably cruising at FL300-330, whereas the 73
228 Cubsrule : Didn't Richard Anderson publicly criticize the dispatch reliability of the 32x at one point, stating that it was worse than the DC-9s? Maybe on an ea
229 CompensateMe : (I'm equating durability with longevity). IIRC, Anderson was complimenting the DC-9 as opposed to "bashing" the 320, although the comments were const
230 FlyASAGuy2005 : Not what i'm hearing around the water cooler. To truly understand, you will have to read the entire contract in whole but there are a LOT of clauses
231 Post contains images msp747 : I know that 1 summer flight in the past and 2 this year are mainline flights, I was saying I was hoping for a full time, year round return to mainlin
232 FlyASAGuy2005 : I may be in the minority but i'd take a CR7/CR9 in Y over a full 738 or 32X any day. Pitch is very respectable and i'm guaranteed a window or aisle s
233 Post contains images nwaesc : This, coupled with your preference for working an MD88/MD90 over an Airbus is proof that you're insane.
234 FlyASAGuy2005 : Granted it sucks for the guys in the bin but if I was an ALA i'd say send me Mad Dogs all day! LOL. Only one way to load them really. Back to front.
235 jporterfi : Finally someone who agrees with me on whether they prefer RJs or mainline! I'd always take a CRJ over a 738! I fly mostly mainline aircraft when I tr
236 laca773 : I asked this earlier in the thread and got no response. I feel they could definitely use a good 15+ 712s out of SLC for the routes you mention above,
237 nwaesc : Lol. Too true. "Start in 6 & work your way forward." Valid points, but I honestly don't think they'll deploy them ex- SLC... or MEM & CVG, fo
238 Cubsrule : I think that's probably a more fair characterization than mine. Another issue, I think, was that by that time, when NW had been the major only DC-9 o
239 mcg : Thanks for the information.
240 VictorKilo : I would expect that this deal will result in a further reduction of flying from MEM and CVG. Replace 76 seats to DTW and 50 seats to CVG with 125 sea
241 mayor : I'm guessing the 717 has 4 bins (two doors) as the shorter 9s did?
242 fpetrutiu : If that were true, it would have made absolutely no sense at all for AirTran to operate them side by side with 737G's. Heck, The whole 717 fleet woul
243 KaiGywer : Except DL no longer flies to any small towns in ND... They were all dropped with the Saab retirements and are being flown by Great Lakes. The remaini
244 TrijetsRMissed : True. But the 73Gs were ordered for specific missions. The route profiles the A320s are on can be completed by other types that are currently in the
245 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : I was wondering today what the hybrid livery would look like. Seeing as how there will be a fair amount of cabin work done before EIS for each frame,
246 B757forever : They will get painted before EIS. This DL management team is more protective of the DL brand than any I have ever seen. Look at the huge effort put f
247 southwest737500 : I agree I fly form CLT TO XNA on a CRJ 700 direct and it's very comfortable flight for a 2hr and 15mn flight
248 rwy04lga : Agree completely! Beverage cans are made from a lesser quality grade of Aluminum. In some countries the decimal is used instead of the comma. Shouldn
249 ein105 : I'm confused by the contract negotiations; will the 717s be operated by mainline DL pilots and FAs?
250 dtw9 : Yes. Only Delta Mainline crews. Rumors of Airtran pilots coming with the aircraft are unture.
251 ein105 : So the 717's replacing the CRJs will create some FA jobs which is good news
252 mayor : I'm sure that's something that the DL mainline pilots wouldn't sign off on.................
253 woodsboy : After all these years and both the MD-90 (which DL planned to be their 727 replacement) and the B-717 coming and going, it seems like the utility of t
254 PIEAvantiP180 : Now that the 717 is confirmed is there any chance that DL will pick up the SV MD90s since they share the same cockpit?
255 PHX787 : I can see DL eventually owning all of the MD90s that are flying. They seem to love it quite a bit. Personally, I also like flying on an MD90.
256 1337Delta764 : One thing that I have been wondering about: Where would the 717 be placed in DL's payscales? Would it be the same as the DC-9?
257 DeltaMD90 : I think their utility has always been known, they just weren't worth the brand new price from Boeing a decade or two ago. Now that DL is getting them
258 FlyASAGuy2005 : I've been told by a very reliable source on more than one occasion that the Saudi MD90s are not being considered. I do believe it'll be right below t
259 DeltAirlines : That was a rumor I had heard amongst several FL pilots but never amongst DL pilots and I agree that they would never sign off on said deal - there wa
260 dtw9 : Delta will use the DC-9 rates for the 717's which will be higher under the new TA. Also under the TA, MD-88/90 pay rates will be the same The biggest
261 B727FA : I'll bet a lot of Comair FA's who were furloughed would disagree with that statement. 14 years is considered very junior at OH now, sad to say. I'd *
262 FlyASAGuy2005 : I've heard that claim as well. I've looked ath the seniority list and none are PMDL. Or because it simply wasn't true to begin with?...
263 seabosdca : Please... The reason the MD-90 is more attractive than the 738 to Delta today is because it costs a small fraction of the cost to buy. When they were
264 PIEAvantiP180 : Thank you for the info. By any chance did your source say anything about picking up any available 717 that might end up on the market in the future?
265 737tdi : Unbelievable that y'all can talk about a insignificant detail in the airline industy for so long. Amazing.
266 Post contains images PIEAvantiP180 : How is this move insignificant. If DL pilots agree to this deal bringing more mainline and more 76 seat planes while retiring almost 300 50 seat RJs
267 mayor : And which particular "insignificant" detail are you referring to?
268 FlyASAGuy2005 : So insignificant that you had to comment about it, eh...
269 Post contains images KaiGywer : How can you tell? I thought all the employee numbers etc were changed so that one couldn't tell if they were PMDL or PMNW?
270 TrijetsRMissed : I'm sure you were told this before the 717 principal agreement was made official. IF DL consider the ex-SV MD-90s, it won't be until: A.) The TA pass
271 DarkSnowyNight : Just to shed some light on that one, no, the loads on a 717 v 73G are nowhere like that similar. The ones I used to fuel (going primarily from DFW -
272 freakyrat : Someone asked about impact on small cities when the 50-seaters are gone. My mid sized city SBN has had Delta mainline to CVG before and can easily rep
273 B727FA : So what it's really coming down to is that DL will have a large fleet of Mad Dogs and Mad Pups, eh?
274 FlyASAGuy2005 : At the end of the day, DL will still hve some 50 seaters to work with. All are not exiting the fleet so those markets that simply cannot support main
275 GSPSPOT : The fewer CR2s the better!
276 Post contains images cokepopper : I like that. I haven't heard that term before...Mad Pups
277 PHX787 : Unfortunately that's what Cincinnatians are fearing and expecting. OH hasn't done much at all to improve their fleet and would result in most of thei
278 FlyASAGuy2005 : I don't think people realize how much of a game changer this deal will actually be. Delta is essentially reshaping the US markets and the other major
279 jporterfi : Just out of curiosity, where did the Mad Dog name come from? I mean, it's obviously from the MD abbreviation, but who thought of "Mad Dog"? Was McDon
280 AVLAirlineFreq : My guess would be that it originated not with aircraft, but with the fortified wine made by Mogen David (MD). Its MD 20/20--notorious as a cheap way
281 Cubsrule : How does that follow? For years, AA, NW and CO flew around with few (or no) 70 and 90 seat regional aircraft. They managed. The legacies have long ha
282 seabosdca : When acquisitions go wrong, the people who came from the acquired company are always the first to suffer. Somehow I only think of MD-80s as "Mad Dogs
283 FlyASAGuy2005 : CO (along with UA) had a very sizeable 50 seater fleet. AA I don't have stats so can't say and NW was late in the game anyway because they had their
284 mayor : IIRC, AA had a sizeable turboprop regional fleet before they got many RJs.
285 Cubsrule : Seems like you're proving my point. Everyone's strategy was a little different.
286 TrijetsRMissed : Correct. Jetstream 31, Shorts 360, Saab 340, and ATR 42/72 aircraft, all operated in AE colors during the mid '90s.
287 FlyASAGuy2005 : Oil was cheap back then so did it really matter what you did. In today's environment, flying a bunch of 50 seaters is not a viable business plan. Esp
288 Cubsrule : This doesn't make sense to me. Fuel burn still mattered - just not as much in dollars and cents terms. The error in this logic is that on DL, if I bu
289 FlyASAGuy2005 : Of course fuel burn mattered and now you're only proving my point..which is exactly what I said-fuel was cheap. Dollars and cents is all that matters
290 Post contains images jetlanta : Cubs, this is a graph based on DOT Form 41 data using the 2002 average fuel price of $.80/gallon, versus a more recent price of $3.30/gallon. I think
291 Cubsrule : No, I agree with all of that math. My point - which is somewhat different - is that fuel expenditures are lower when fuel burn is lower regardless of
292 FlyASAGuy2005 : Fair enough. Your example is a little out there though. Buying a last minute Y fare say 3-5 days before departure and you expect for there to be EC s
293 Post contains images mayor : Are you taking crew costs, etc. for the 319 vs an RJ into account, as well? I think this whole argument is strange as, ever since I've been on A.net,
294 Cubsrule : I'd say a window or aisle in the front half of the coach cabin would be fair. 24B isn't. DL does something differently, but I can't put my finger on
295 PSU.DTW.SCE : DL is now the first one to have a plan to fill the gap in the 76-125 aircraft size and have an aircraft that is well suited for shorter range flying.
296 mayor : And what did AA and UA do to replace that flying or at least capacity?
297 akelley728 : I think this could be a very good thing for the C-Series. My guess is that UA and AA will follow DL's lead and order a bunch of CS100s crewed by main
298 RyanairGuru : Excuse my ignorance, but wasn't US with E90s at mainline the first to do that? The E90 is a perfect fit between the E75/CRJ900 on the one hand and th
299 DeltaL1011man : Same thing Delta has do to replace a good chunk of the pull down CRJ capacity........nothing. I don't think we have seen capacity growth in non-LCCs(
300 DTWPurserBoy : Have any of the former FL 717's gone into the shop for the upgrades and paint? If not, has anyone heard when they will start? DL moved very quickly to
301 mayor : Isn't the deal with WN and Boeing contingent on the TA being ratified by the pilots' rank and file, first?
302 atlengineer : If the pilots approve the TA at the end of this month, Delta will start receiving the B717's starting the middle of 2013 at the rate of 3/month. For
303 B727FA : I have a strong feeling that RA won't let those planes go on "just" the TA vote. He'll find a way to bring them on property.
304 DeltaL1011man : Depends on how bad Delta wants them. The 717 can be added to the PWA and it would just be an easy LOA as Delta/DALPA have already agreed on pay. If t
305 flyguy89 : No offense, but people were saying that if the LGA slot swap went through it would be the "final nail for CVG and MEM" yet there's still no indicatio
306 KKephart13 : No... They got to wait for the agreement. If all goes as planned, Starting Jan 2013, the transition will happen
307 DTWPurserBoy : I, for one, will be glad to see the 50 seat RJ's go bye-bye. They are a non-revs nightmare. If it is booked at 50 then 50 people show up. The B717 wil
308 MSPNWA : You're totally right in that regard. There hasn't been a "pull the plug" moment for either hub yet. But I believe the end is coming soon in the form
309 KaiGywer : Did you not mean that 51 or 52 people show up? lol
310 flyguy89 : That may very well be. I can't really speak to what's going on at MEM, but with CVG, DL still has to pay off those bonds on Councourse B. If DL figur
311 Post contains images deltajfk : I Was looking at this picture yesterday Any chance of delta picking up these ex Mexicana Click 717s?[Edited 2012-06-12 13:56:41] im having trouble pos
312 DTWPurserBoy : Assuming the pilots will ratify the agreement (and it seems they will) I would look for DL to start scouring the planet for every stray B717 they coul
313 tztristar500 : Never say never, but these BCC birds are allocated for Volotea. Right now there aren't many if any available with exception of perhaps Turkmenistan's
314 DTWPurserBoy : I don't think I have ever read on a.net what eventually happened with the former TW/AA B717 fleet? How many aircraft where there and where did they wi
315 KKephart13 : 23 of them are in FL fleet. A/C 776-799 are ex TW/AA and built to their specifications.
316 HPRamper : Saw a FL 717 parked over in front of the DL hangar at MSP today with crew stairs pulled up. Wasn't in a RON area. Maybe this has something to do with
317 DTWPurserBoy : Maybe "kicking the tires" so to speak before commiting themselves. I would think maintenance and flight ops would want to take a good hard look at th
318 B727FA : RE: "extra" 717s out there. Can someone refresh my memory about why I'm remembering ~20 sitting in Boeing's "warehouse" and "available" to acquire? Or
319 seabosdca : Those are the ex-Click birds referred to upthread, which are now spoken for (at least if Volotea survives).
320 B727FA : Thank you seabosdca! I appreciate the confirmation that I'm not completely losing it!
321 usflyer msp : DL has started painting 717 lines on the gates at MSP. I noticed the lines on F13 and F15 (both of which just got new jetways) .
322 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : A sign of things to come I'm sure. Have our widgets in ATL or DTW seen this as well?
323 FlyASAGuy2005 : I'll have to take a stroll on the ramp some timethis week to check. Last time the engineers were out to paint lines in ATL was for the 739s.
324 timf : I'm surprised they paint lines 1-2 years ahead of the aircraft's arrival. How long do lines typically last between repaintings?
325 floridaflyboy : Interesting. I would have thought they'd use the same lines as the DC-9. Is there a difference in the door or something that necessitates a new line?
326 FlyASAGuy2005 : Usually about 2 years at hubs..at least from what i've seen. The mainline markings they painted on C & D in ATL is all but faded now from heavy u
327 LHCVG : A couple minor points: the hub is gone--already, and for good. Not saying you're a CVG fanboy, but just to reiterate for others that the drawdown is
328 PHX787 : I think people are throwing "focus city" around too loosely. I define a focus city as a city that an airline flies TO (not from) as a top destination
329 LHCVG : At the risk of nit-picking, what you describe is the very definition of a focus city: a place that sees service to more than just the hubs (i.e., maj
330 jetlanta : So long has CVG has banks of flights designed to connect, which it does, it is a hub.
331 flyguy89 : Oh not at all, I completely agree, but DL is still calling it a hub, though I would say it's only a hub in name only. I think the community needs to
332 PHX787 : The problem there is, the city's priorities are completely elsewhere. The Banks, the Streetcars, all of this stuff that is rather trivial in my opini
333 LHCVG : We really need to put this rumor to bed for good.....CDG does just fine (maybe not as good as it used to when the 777 to CDG was said to be one of th
334 Post contains images wnflyguy : Rumor going around MDW after GK visit today with the 717 deal. WN picking up 22 of DELTA oldest 737-800's and getting 6 delivery slots between 2016 an
335 cokepopper : Rumor or wishful thinking? Where to begin? Slots out jfk? Oldest 800? i'm stil laughing
336 Post contains images seabosdca : Sounds like something started by a pilot after 5 beers at the end of his trip.
337 CompensateMe : As WN is leasing, and does not own, the 717, I ponder what motivation DL would have in relinquishing any assets (including aircraft, gates & slot
338 Post contains images wnflyguy : Ya I don't believe this rumor either every time GK makes a station visit Rumors start to fly. But I still post them to see if anyone else have heard t
339 mayor : Why does there have to be? WN is getting what they want.......tthey're unloading the a/c that they didn't plan to use.....sounds like everyone should
340 vatveng : It's not like they're dumping 88 73Gs. These 88 planes are AirTran's planes. And WN is gutting a large chunk of FL's network. What 717 routes still r
341 LHCVG : Would it be fair to say that WN is essentially giving an ultimatum to FL routes, something like "either succeed on our existing 73Gs, or get cut"? It
342 seabosdca : That's part of it. The other part is that they will be saying to entire stations: "grow into typical WN service patterns or be abandoned." There will
343 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : There is none. The simple fact is they don't want them and DL does.
344 wjcandee : It just occurred to me that DL can just leave the GoGo in place on the 717s that was previously installed for FL. Good for Gogo!
345 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : They are. Its just the DC9 line with 717/DC9-3/4/5 paint on them. Are you a pilot? It sounds like the typical crap a pilot would say. so lets have fu
346 LHCVG : Your raise a good point there - we could see more entire stations get axed if they can't perform. It will be interesting to see if the focus is more
347 Post contains images mayor : And they'll move what's left of the MEM hub operation over here to FSM. (I can dream, can't I?)
348 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : Come mayor, do better. They will move the MEM opps to FSM and add 500 new flights. Have fun with it.
349 mayor : I can't even ENVISION 500 flights at this airport. To expand, the airport would have to take over the entire town.
350 cat3dual : Here's what I can add to what we already know: Starting in August 2013, Delta will take three 717s per month. In December 2013, Delta will take four a
351 srbmod : Delta did not sell them to Valujet, McDonnell-Douglas sold them to Valujet. Delta had sold them back to MDD not knowing who they were going to. The o
352 TheGov : It's funny that others are mentioning MEM. The good citizens of MEM are screaming, crying, begging for WN and are hoping that WN adds substantial ser
353 1337Delta764 : Those aircraft were leased, not owned. The DC-9s that DL sold to McD were owned.
354 AirAfreak : I've used the AVOD many times and in all the years I've used AVOD (since Song), I've only experienced a minor issue with the system departing from Na
355 TrijetsRMissed : I think we may see the DC-9 remain active into early 2014.
356 mayor : The same thing happened with the Western DC-10s........they were not supposed to be sold to a direct competitor (basically AA) and yet, while flying
357 QANTAS747-438 : I do think WN will start service out of JFK in the near future, but why would DL give those slots up if they're already giving away older -800s? Anot
358 Post contains links and images TrijetsRMissed : Mayor, of the nine Western DC-10s acquired from the merger, only ship 906 was sold to a direct competitor - UA. The majority of the ex-WA fleet went
359 mayor : That must have been one of the ones I saw at ORD, then. I had no idea who they went to but the story was that they weren't to go to a direct competit
360 FlyASAGuy2005 : Well, that would be just fine!!!
361 stratosphere : Except the AirTran pilots who are captains on the 717 and thought they would be able to hold their seat for a while. Guess they will ALL be F/O's for
362 747400sp : I do not like the ideal of DL not ordering Cseries.
363 PHX787 : I have a feeling they'll order it sometime down the road. Those 717s can't last forever. Especially since they're second hand.
364 Post contains links KarlB737 : Press Release - Southwest Airlines Southwest Airlines, Delta Air Lines, & Boeing Capital Reach Agreement To Lease Or Sublease Airtran Boeing 717 F
365 FlyASAGuy2005 : Doubt it will happen before 2020. Heck, the 88s are here till about '18 last I heard. Great! Mods, wow 300 posts can we get a part 2 going?
366 Post contains links PSU.DTW.SCE : Here is the Delta Press Release: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-...dd-boeing-717-fleet-123000394.html
367 LHCVG : This may even turn out to benefit DL in the long run - they can hold off on the CSeries until the first revised model comes out rather than having to
368 msp747 : Seems like DL has made a habit out of ordering aircraft that have been in service awhile and have worked out those new-plane kinks. They could have h
369 Post contains links FlyASAGuy2005 : This is getting rather long. Can we continue here 717 And Large RJs For Delta! Other Tidbits..Part 2 (by FlyASAGuy2005 Jul 9 2012 in Civil Aviation) M
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