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717 And Large RJs For Delta! Other Tidbits..  
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54984 times:

Hot off the press,

- DL has formally announced that they have "in principle" come to an agreement to lease 88 FL 717s. Config will be 12FC 15EC 83YC. They also said they plan on picking up about 70 more 76 seaters as they retire more 50-seaters to right-size the fleet.

- All merit and non-contract scale employees will receive another across the board raise in Jan 2013. This is on top of the raise coming in July. There was an annual employee survey conducted and the results sowed that everyone would rather more of their money coming in their regular check rather than depending on the uncertainty of profit shaing so the profit sharing calculation will be adjusted and base pay will go up.

I will not post the entire memo but here's a small piece explaining the 717 an large RJ deal..

Quote:
We’ve talked a lot about the steps we’re taking to continue improving the products and services we offer customers, to retire less efficient aircraft and maintain capacity discipline by continuing to right-size our fleet and network to match customer demand. As part of our work with the Delta pilots, we are making a major strategic shift in our mainline fleet – once again leading the industry. It is time to complete the dramatic reduction of 50-seat RJs and significantly increase and upgrade our mainline fleet.

First, we’ve reached an agreement in principle with Southwest Airlines and Boeing – to lease 88 Boeing 717 aircraft for the mainline that will replace inefficient 50-seat RJs. The Boeing 717 aircraft will be extensively refurbished, with new seats, galleys, in-flight Wi-Fi and cabin upgrades. Once refurbished, the aircraft will seat 110 passengers with 12 first class seats, 15 Economy Comfort seats and 83 economy seats. These aircraft will give our high value customers even more opportunities to upgrade to first class and Economy Comfort seats, extending our industry leading position as the U.S. airline with the most first class seats.

Second, Delta will increase the two-class 76 seat regional jet fleet by 70 airplanes, which will increase our total large RJ fleet from 255 to 325.

I think we can wave bye-bye to a very large part of the DCI CR2 fleet.

[Edited 2012-05-22 08:59:40]

[Edited 2012-05-22 09:08:48]

[Edited 2012-05-22 09:11:55]


What gets measured gets done.
369 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3408 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54996 times:

Where'd you see that? Nothing on the company website or other usual outlets...


"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54959 times:

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 1):

Check you delta.com email.

Mods, please don' delte i'm suea press release will come out in some minutes.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineDL WIDGET HEAD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2100 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54957 times:

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 1):
Where'd you see that? Nothing on the company website or other usual outlets...

Company wide email just sent out by Ricahrd Anderson.


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1911 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54938 times:

This is sad... While I like the MD-95*, I was hoping the rumours circling around will turn out to be false and that Delta would order CSeries...

*) sorry Boeing, Mad Dog will ALWAYS be the Mad Dog!



Now get your f***ing Jumbo Jet off my airport!!! - AC/DC "Ain't No Fun To Be a Millionaire"
User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3408 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54767 times:

Just saw it. Thanks, guys!


"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineBDL757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54785 times:

I'm quite excited because we're (non-contract ppl like myself) getting a raise this coming July and now another one in January 2013!!

I'm also please to see a new mainline aircraft in the 110 seat range as this is perfect markets in NYC, DTW, and possibly LAX. My only question is: Is the company already assuming that the pilots are going to vote in favor of the current TA?


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5837 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54704 times:

Some clever internal PR positioning to release this now. This will make the pilots look like the grinch to the entire rest of the company if they reject the TA.

User currently offlinenicksair From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 484 posts, RR: 45
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54575 times:

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1624


That is the press release.

'2NW



Nicholas William Reed KSAN/KLAX/KSFO
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54531 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
They also said they plan on picking up about 70 more 76 seaters



I'm sure the pilots will not be thrilled by this, I guess the 717 deal is DL's attempt to quell the negative RJ reaction.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineflyabr From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 688 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54504 times:

Which 76 seater will Delta get 70 more of, the CRJ900 or E175??

User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54439 times:

Quoting nicksair (Reply 8):

Thank you nick.

Fair use from above link..

Quote:
Delta to Take Delivery of Boeing 717 Aircraft Upon Ratification of Pilot Tentative Agreement
Delta to upgauge fleet while replacing less efficient aircraft
Pilot agreement and aircraft transactions provide value to Delta people, customers and shareholders
May 22, 2012



ATLANTA, May 22, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) will begin taking delivery of Boeing 717 aircraft as early as 2013 upon ratification of a new tentative agreement covering Delta's more than 12,000 pilots. The tentative agreement was approved on May 21 by the Master Executive Council (MEC) of the Delta Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), and now will be presented to pilots for review and ratification through June 30.

(Logo: http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20090202/DELTALOGO )

The tentative agreement provides career growth opportunities as well as pay and benefits improvements for Delta pilots, while providing Delta productivity gains and additional aircraft flexibility, including an opportunity to accelerate its domestic fleet restructuring to provide a better customer travel experience.

If ratified, the agreement will accelerate Delta's domestic fleet restructuring strategy. To this end, Delta has reached an agreement in principle with Southwest Airlines and Boeing to lease 88 Boeing 717 aircraft currently in service at Southwest subsidiary AirTran Airways that is conditioned upon pilot ratification of the tentative agreement. The aircraft will primarily replace inefficient 50-seat regional jets and some older DC-9 aircraft still in service, on a capacity-neutral basis.

The tentative agreement also provides Delta with additional flexibility to acquire up to 70 larger two-class, 76-seat regional jets as the Boeing 717 aircraft are delivered to Delta. Delta currently operates 255 larger two-class regional jets; the fleet will be increased to 325 aircraft.

"These actions pave the way for us to restructure and upgauge our domestic fleet, which will lower our costs, provide more pilot jobs and improve the onboard experience for our customers," said Delta CEO Richard Anderson. "The addition of the Boeing 717s, additional large regional jets and the planned replacement of 50-seat aircraft continue Delta's commitment to operating an efficient, flexible domestic fleet that offers customers even more opportunities to upgrade to our First Class and Economy Comfort cabins."

In addition to aircraft flexibility, the tentative agreement will provide for productivity enhancements as well as improvements to the total compensation package for Delta pilots, including increases to base pay. The agreement also provides for a modification of the profit sharing program for pilots so that it pays 10 percent of profits, compared with 15 percent today, on the first $2.5 billion of profits effective Jan. 1, 2013. The plan will continue to pay 20 percent of profits above $2.5 billion. A voluntary early retirement option recently offered to Delta's other employee groups also will be available to Delta pilots upon ratification of the tentative agreement.

"Delta, our pilots and ALPA continue to benefit from a very constructive, proactive relationship, one that is unprecedented in our industry," said Mike Campbell, executive vice president – Human Resources and Labor Relations. "This tentative agreement represents an investment in our pilots and our company as it gives Delta significant fleet flexibility, the ability to continue running a reliable operation for our customers, and a profitable enterprise for shareholders and for all Delta people. The fleet changes provided by this agreement, coupled with the productivity and profit sharing changes, cover the investments in our employees.

"We strongly support the Delta MEC's endorsement and are optimistic that Delta pilots will ratify the tentative agreement," Campbell said.

Pilots have approximately five weeks to review and ratify the tentative agreement. If approved by the June 30 deadline, the agreement would take effect July 1, 2012. The agreement becomes amendable Dec. 31, 2015.

Negotiating committees for Delta and ALPA announced on May 15, 2012, that a tentative agreement had been reached. During the next several days the tentative agreement was reviewed and subsequently approved by the Delta MEC on May 21.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7689 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54453 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
They also said they plan on picking up about 70 more 76 seaters

I'm sure the pilots will not be thrilled by this, I guess the 717 deal is DL's attempt to quell the negative RJ reaction.

The CRJs don't make money at this fuel level. Excepting the profit sharing reduction, this is great for DL pilots. It is very bad for AirTran pilots as they will lose their seniority fence and fall to the bottom at WN.


User currently offlineDL WIDGET HEAD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2100 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54355 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 7):
This will make the pilots look like the grinch to the entire rest of the company if they reject the TA.

No reason for them to do so. It's good for the pilots and it's good for the company.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12945 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 54319 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
L has formally announced that they have "in principle" come to an agreement to lease 88 FL 717s

Interesting. After years of DL watching them come and go with FL at ATL, now DL will be flying them!

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
I'm sure the pilots will not be thrilled by this, I guess the 717 deal is DL's attempt to quell the negative RJ reaction.

Indeed, if you follow the link to the presser, you will see it is titled Delta to Take Delivery of Boeing 717 Aircraft Upon Ratification of Pilot Tentative Agreement.

Not very subtle...

However the PR does go on and describe the agreement that the MEC has agreed to and the pilots will vote on:

Quote:

ATLANTA, May 22, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) will begin taking delivery of Boeing 717 aircraft as early as 2013 upon ratification of a new tentative agreement covering Delta's more than 12,000 pilots. The tentative agreement was approved on May 21 by the Master Executive Council (MEC) of the Delta Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), and now will be presented to pilots for review and ratification through June 30.

The tentative agreement provides career growth opportunities as well as pay and benefits improvements for Delta pilots, while providing Delta productivity gains and additional aircraft flexibility, including an opportunity to accelerate its domestic fleet restructuring to provide a better customer travel experience.

If ratified, the agreement will accelerate Delta's domestic fleet restructuring strategy. To this end, Delta has reached an agreement in principle with Southwest Airlines and Boeing to lease 88 Boeing 717 aircraft currently in service at Southwest subsidiary AirTran Airways that is conditioned upon pilot ratification of the tentative agreement. The aircraft will primarily replace inefficient 50-seat regional jets and some older DC-9 aircraft still in service, on a capacity-neutral basis.

The tentative agreement also provides Delta with additional flexibility to acquire up to 70 larger two-class, 76-seat regional jets as the Boeing 717 aircraft are delivered to Delta. Delta currently operates 255 larger two-class regional jets; the fleet will be increased to 325 aircraft.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlinethreeifbyair From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 709 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 54105 times:

Quoting flyabr (Reply 10):
Which 76 seater will Delta get 70 more of, the CRJ900 or E175??

Please be the E175.

CR9s are better than CR2s, but the 175 blows then both away from a passenger comfort perspective.

The PR specifically states "regional jets" so I think we can rule out a Q400 or ATR-72 order.


Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
I think we can wave bye-bye to a very large part of the DCI CR2 fleet.

I seem to remember that some frames are nearing the CR2 design life. If so, some of those will obviously go, and I could see a lot of retirements when the others start bumping up against heavy checks.

This is obviously a minor consideration, but at certain airports a 76-seater will be a tight fit in the gate areas designed for 50-seaters. The CRJ-200 has a 69ft wingspan, vs. 81ft for a CR9 and 85ft for an E175.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 54095 times:

I hope DL puts AVOD on these aircraft, although it is unlikely due to these aircraft primarily being used to replace RJ flying.

Also, about the seats, will DL keep the existing Recaro seats that Airtran installed, or will DL install their own seats such as the Weber 5751 or B/E Aerospace Pinnacle?



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinecv640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 54089 times:

Quoting DL WIDGET HEAD (Reply 13):
No reason for them to do so. It's good for the pilots and it's good for the company.

Even with these aircraft there is no way to hide what this contract really is. Way too many loop holes, way short on compensation, I can't believe our MEC signed off on this. I guess they've just given up and want DPA on property.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 54022 times:

Quoting DL WIDGET HEAD (Reply 13):
No reason for them to do so. It's good for the pilots and it's good for the company.
Quoting cv640 (Reply 17):
Even with these aircraft there is no way to hide what this contract really is. Way too many loop holes, way short on compensation, I can't believe our MEC signed off on this. I guess they've just given up and want DPA on property.

What happens if the AMR contract comes in way below this DAL contract?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13520 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 53913 times:
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Please serve my crow well done with a Worcestershire sauce. I never thought this would happen.

This is out in the wild:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/del...lot-tentative-agreement-2012-05-22

Quoting flyabr (Reply 10):
Which 76 seater will Delta get 70 more of, the CRJ900 or E175??

Who will bid more aggressively?

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 15):
I seem to remember that some frames are nearing the CR2 design life.

It doesn't matter. DL cannot afford to subsidize the fuel of the CR2 fleet anymore. The cost per passenger is just too high. It is time to scrap CR2s and replace them with CR9s or E175s.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineBNAtraveler From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 412 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 53863 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 15):
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
I think we can wave bye-bye to a very large part of the DCI CR2 fleet.

I seem to remember that some frames are nearing the CR2 design life. If so, some of those will obviously go, and I could see a lot of retirements when the others start bumping up against heavy checks.

Sounds like the PNCL Ch.11 makes even more sense here (especially the DL $70+ million DIP financing) - they will dump CR2s and transition to large RJs through the bankruptcy process. EV/OO will probably keep CR2s for now and those will be the last to go.


User currently offlinecv640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 53861 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
What happens if the AMR contract comes in way below this DAL contract?

SWA can compete with us while paying their pilots 42% higher then us.

AA has a ton of problems, labor is just one of them, plus they will get a nice pay raise in a merger with USAirways


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 53789 times:

I don't understand, why are DL pilots willing to lay down on the 70+ seat RJ issue where as pilots groups at other airlines are ready to go thermal nuclear?


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinerl757pvd From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4716 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 53745 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 22):
I don't understand, why are DL pilots willing to lay down on the 70+ seat RJ issue where as pilots groups at other airlines are ready to go thermal nuclear?

Probably because they enjoy the stability of working for a profitable company. I think the way the RJ fleet is pegged to the mainline fleet makes sense and protects the pilots interests.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11972 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 53738 times:

I wonder how contingent this deal is on the pilots approving the TA. For instance, if the TA is rejected, does Delta have to pay some sort of break-up fee to Southwest/Boeing, or can they just proceed with the 717 leases anyway?

Either way - smart move on Delta's part to take advantage of a favorable situation to replace tons of uneconomic RJ flying with larger, more efficient, relatively young/low-cycle jets. The only question now becomes which markets are going to get cut over the next few years as Delta largely exits the 50-seat flying business. Much of that flying is likely to move up to 70-76-seaters or larger, but there are also routes Delta is flying today that I think will struggle to profitably fill anything even that large.


User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 55534 times:

Quoting BNAtraveler (Reply 20):

9E stated that they will be a 50 seat aircraft airline coming out of bankruptcy. I think maybe they will be the ones flying the CR2 and everyone else will end up with larger jets. Of course things change so who knows what will happen going forward.


User currently onlinethreeifbyair From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 709 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 55530 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
It doesn't matter. DL cannot afford to subsidize the fuel of the CR2 fleet anymore. The cost per passenger is just too high. It is time to scrap CR2s and replace them with CR9s or E175s.

Completely agree. With ~300 frames, though, it will take a while to wind down CR2 flying unless DL plans to drop a lot of those routes entirely in the interim. If the 717s take over some of the routes currently flown by 76-seat RJs, those could help replace much of the CR2 fleet. The 70 new 76-seat orders would more or less take care of the rest, but even so, the CR2s will still be around for several more years.

If DL made an order tomorrow, how soon could it get a new CR9 or E175 into service?

Wikipedia says BBD has 66 unfilled CRJ-700/900/1000 orders and EMB has 249 E170/175/190/195 orders (are they all produced on the same line?).

BBD would seem to have an advantage if DL wants to move quickly.


User currently offlinewingnutmn From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 653 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 56467 times:

I would gladly give up my job flhing for a regional if it meant the opportunity to fly at a stable major airline. If we give up 2:1 crj200 for 900's I would call that a win for DL pilots. Eliminate a total of 70 regional jets while getting 88 more mainline sounds like a good start to me.

Wingnut



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1213 posts, RR: 2
Reply 28, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 56222 times:
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This is positive to the mainline pilots, as any way you cut it the ratio of regional aircraft to mainline aircraft will shift close to 10% (88 717 a/c as a ratio of a 700 a/c mainline fleet) even with the additional 70x 76 pax regional, As 737-900 and more MD90's come on board, as Delta keeps capacity steady it basically means 2-3 CR2 out the door and more flying for mainline pilots. I fully expect a call for hiring 500 new mainline pilots during Q3 2011. With the new tentative contract amenable for in 2015, it means the pilots and the airline can further tinker with increasing the mainline ratio.


The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 56327 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
I hope DL puts AVOD on these aircraft, although it is unlikely due to these aircraft primarily being used to replace RJ flying.

AVOD on 717 and larger RJ deployed on shorter hops? Seriously?

Obviously you haven't flown an AVOD-equipped DL aircraft lately. If you had, you would have noticed most passengers were too busy utilizing their laptops, tablets and smart phones to even notice the PTV. Sure, it's a nice option to have. But in 2012, it's one that appeals to few passengers to justify the cost on a short-hop.

At least you didn't suggest pink seats.



Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
User currently offlinetimf From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 971 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 56136 times:
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The 9E fleet is newer than most of the EV/OO/OH fleets since NW was a relative latecomer to the RJ game compared to DL, so it would make sense for those to be the ones that stick around longer. There will likely be some coming out of all of the fleets though, since OO will still need them for certain at-risk and EAS services.

In any case, it's good to finally have official confirmation of this long standing rumor. The 717 is a great aircraft and I look forward to having those in the DL fleet instead of CR2s.


User currently offlinerl757pvd From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4716 posts, RR: 11
Reply 31, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 55730 times:

70 new 76 seat RJs = 5320 seats
88 new 110 seat 717s = 9680 seats

Total = 15,000 seats

"replaced on a capacity ceutral basis"

15,000/ 50 = 300 -50 seat RJs exiting the fleet...aka pretty much all except perhaps a small handful.

For those who want to continue the math, can figure out how many beer cans per aircraft...



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1630 posts, RR: 3
Reply 32, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 55619 times:

Quoting timf (Reply 30):

The 9E fleet is newer than most of the EV/OO/OH fleets since NW was a relative latecomer to the RJ game compared to DL

   OH is down to only relatively old 100s. OO's newest was delivered in 2003 and they've picked up several 100s that have left OH in the last 6 months. EV's are somewhat more spread out age wise, but nonetheless the bulk of their fleet is older than 9E's. I'm interested to see where RP falls in the grand scheme of things. Do the ERJs stay or go?

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 29):
But in 2012, it's one that appeals to few passengers to justify the cost on a short-hop.

Exactly. If I'm going to pay for an entertainment option, I'd much rather buy wifi access.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineJosh32121 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 55357 times:

Won't the 717's be used to replace DC9-50's, too? That wasn't specifically mentioned, but haven't the -50's been on the chopping block without a clear replacement for their capacity until now?

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 55119 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 29):
Obviously you haven't flown an AVOD-equipped DL aircraft lately. If you had, you would have noticed most passengers were too busy utilizing their laptops, tablets and smart phones to even notice the PTV. Sure, it's a nice option to have. But in 2012, it's one that appeals to few passengers to justify the cost on a short-hop.

Actually, I had an AVOD 738 on PHX-JFK on an overnight flight last Thursday/Friday. While most people were sleeping in the flight, I saw a lot more people using the IFE than I saw using their tablets and laptops. It's all about convenience.

[Edited 2012-05-22 11:42:48]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 35, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 54947 times:

A lot of 50 seat RJs were planning to leave the fleet in the next 3-7 years anyways, however there will still likely be a fleet of 75-100 left by 2020. Most of these will be the 9E aircraft that DL leases direct and are the youngest CRJs in fleet.

In the end it can be capacity neutral based on the replacement of the 18 remaining DC-9-50s and 50 seat RJs.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13520 posts, RR: 100
Reply 36, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 54948 times:
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It looks like the pilots have agreed:
http://www.ajc.com/travel/delta-pilot-deal-allows-1443590.html

Quoting rl757pvd (Reply 31):
15,000/ 50 = 300 -50 seat RJs exiting the fleet...aka pretty much all except perhaps a small handful.

Per Wikipedia, I count 348. Would DL really keep 48 RJs? Perhaps at ATL, DTW, LGA/JFK, and ??? I wonder if there will be seat growth despite the neutral claim.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1173 posts, RR: 2
Reply 37, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 54643 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):
It looks like the pilots have agreed:

Not yet. The MEC agreed, the pilots have yet to vote


User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1213 posts, RR: 2
Reply 38, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 54864 times:
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Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 34):
Won't the 717's be used to replace DC9-50's, too? That wasn't specifically mentioned, but haven't the -50's been on the chopping block without a clear replacement for their capacity until now?

There will probably be 17, or 18 or perhaps 19 DC9-50 frames in operation throughout this summer with an announced retirement date stretched out to 2013. I am sure once the 717's are coming on property they may accelerate the retirement of this orphan fleet, but I would certainly love to see a 40 year old DC9 in the Delta Climbing colors next to a 717 in the Delta Climbing colors. Talk about a fabulous full circle.



The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlinecv640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 39, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 54572 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):
It looks like the pilots have agreed:

We won't even start voting on it for at least a week, so no one other then our leadership has agreed.


User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10652 posts, RR: 14
Reply 40, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 54551 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):
It looks like the pilots have agreed:
http://www.ajc.com/travel/delta-pilo....html

Still has to be voted on..............



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinecapitalflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 54055 times:

Seems ditching the 50-seaters in favor of larger planes flies in the face of what had seemed to be the trend of increasing frequency. Larger planes on regional routes will mean fewer flights (33% reduction?), meaning lower total fuel costs and maybe even higher fares. Good for Delta, bad for pax (although I would rather fly on a 175 than a CR2 any day).

Will there be SCASD cities that will lose service all together as a result? This was the niche for the CR2s.


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 53921 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 35):
Actually, I had an AVOD 738 on PHX-JFK on an overnight flight last Thursday/Friday. While most people were sleeping in the flight, I saw a lot more people using the IFE than I saw using their tablets and laptops. It's all about convenience.

No, it's all about making money, so unless those "conveniences" are drawing a premium. I travel frequently and noticed that since the introduction of tablets & explosive popularity of smart phones, fewer and fewer passengers are making use of their PTV, even on long-haul flights. AVOD systems are costly; don't expect other passengers will be willing to pay more for the enjoyment of a few passengers (usually kids). After all, they can always bring their Power Puff Girls & Dora The Explorer DVDs on board free of charge.



Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1642 posts, RR: 2
Reply 43, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 53963 times:

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 15):
Please be the E175.

CR9s are better than CR2s, but the 175 blows then both away from a passenger comfort perspective.

The PR specifically states "regional jets" so I think we can rule out a Q400 or ATR-72 order.

Remember though - CR9s are said to have somewhat better economics for the airline than E-Jets. That may play trump in the final decision (accounting for price of course).


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 53725 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 43):
No, it's all about making money, so unless those "conveniences" are drawing a premium. I travel frequently and noticed that since the introduction of tablets & explosive popularity of smart phones, fewer and fewer passengers are making use of their PTV, even on long-haul flights. AVOD systems are costly; don't expect other passengers will be willing to pay more for the enjoyment of a few passengers (usually kids). After all, they can always bring their Power Puff Girls & Dora The Explorer DVDs on board free of charge.

But there are still enough people who use the system that makes its installation worthwhile. Plans have already been finalized to have AVOD factory-installed on the 739ER fleet, and I don't see that changing. While I would agree that it is unlikely that DL will install AVOD on the 717 fleet, don't expect it to go away on other aircraft. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that DL will pull out the seats/systems on whichever 75X's are retired, and retrofits them onto newer 757s without AVOD. This would be similar to when DL retired some of their domestic 763s and took their seats and IFE and installed them on the 76Ts.

[Edited 2012-05-22 12:13:15]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineulfinator From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 53692 times:

The blog posting I saw related to this topic has a very interesting typo in it. Check out the second to last paragraph. Apparently the "The 717s have 10.296 seats.". haha. A decimal point versus a comma really changes the meaning.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...outhwest-airlines-to-sublease.html


User currently offlinealoha73g From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2372 posts, RR: 4
Reply 46, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 53727 times:

The 717 is a great plane! I love flying on them as a passenger on HA's interisland flights and also enjoyed working them as an FA. Will be nice to see the 717 in DL's fleet.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 47, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 53600 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 44):
Remember though - CR9s are said to have somewhat better economics for the airline than E-Jets. That may play trump in the final decision (accounting for price of course).

I remember hearing that NW preferred the E-175 over the CR9. This could also be a factor as well.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 53454 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 45):
. Plans have already been finalized to have AVOD factory-installed on the 739ER fleet, and I don't see that changing. While I would agree that it is unlikely that DL will install AVOD on the 717 fleet, don't expect it to go away on other aircraft. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that DL will pull out the seats/systems on whichever 75X's are retired, and retrofits them onto newer 757s without AVOD.

The longest 717 flights will likely be 2.5-hours, with most flights shorter than that; the 739 will be operating many flights 4-hours in duration or longer. The latter has a case for AVOD, the former does not.

I certainly don't expect DL to remove the existing AVOD systems after spending millions installing them. But the oldest installations are approaching 10-years and the touchscreens becoming "buggy." I'd be surprised if DL moved these into other a/c...



Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 53161 times:

Quoting rl757pvd (Reply 31):
15,000/ 50 = 300 -50 seat RJs exiting the fleet...aka pretty much all except perhaps a small handful.
Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 34):
Won't the 717's be used to replace DC9-50's, too? That wasn't specifically mentioned, but haven't the -50's been on the chopping block without a clear replacement for their capacity until now?

Several articles (including the one below) mention the 717's as being replacements for the remaining DC-9s, so it is not all to replace CR2s.

Also, this WSJ article mentions that the 717's will be subleased???


SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlinevatveng From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1010 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 52957 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
I hope DL puts AVOD on these aircraft, although it is unlikely due to these aircraft primarily being used to replace RJ flying.

Can they at least turn the XM back on?



Visited VA,NC,PA,SC,FL,GA,OH,AL,TX,TN,CO,CA,UT,NV,NM,IN,KY,MD,MO,CT,MA,NH,ME.
User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7540 posts, RR: 7
Reply 51, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 52929 times:

Glad to see it's official. Looking forward to seeing the 717 in DL colors @ ROC.


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 52311 times:

Quoting vatveng (Reply 51):
Can they at least turn the XM back on?

I believe the XM system requires DL to pay royalty fees to LiveTV since they provided the system. Perhaps DL could use the existing wiring though to install their own audio-only system.

[Edited 2012-05-22 12:35:32]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 52248 times:

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 50):
Several articles (including the one below) mention the 717's as being replacements for the remaining DC-9s, so it is not all to replace CR2s.

Also, this WSJ article mentions that the 717's will be subleased???


WSJ link won't work in here for some reason, but Bloomberg is also saying they will be subleased.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...-boeing-717-jets-to-delta-air.html



SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 54, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 52148 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 45):
While I would agree that it is unlikely that DL will install AVOD on the 717 fleet, don't expect it to go away on other aircraft

There will not be AVOD or any type of IFE on 717s. Wifi, yes.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 48):

I remember hearing that NW preferred the E-175 over the CR9. This could also be a factor as well.

Passengers generally prefer the E175 over the CRJ-900, primarily due to the larger cabin, larger overheads and the rear galley makese the lav situation better.

The economics on most route profiles is generally better with the CRJ-900.

The E175 has better range and economics on the longer routes than the CRJ-900.

NW wanted/needed the E-175 for the ability to fly on some of the longer routes out of MSP that would push the limits of the CRJ-900.

Also with their aggresive delivery timeline, it was going to be difficult for any one manufacturer to deliver 72 frames in short time frame.


User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 51744 times:
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Quoting commavia: "Either way - smart move on Delta's part to take advantage of a favorable situation to replace tons of uneconomic RJ flying with larger, more efficient, relatively young/low-cycle jets. The only question now becomes which markets are going to get cut over the next few years as Delta largely exits the 50-seat flying business. Much of that flying is likely to move up to 70-76-seaters or larger, but there are also routes Delta is flying today that I think will struggle to profitably fill anything even that large."

SBN has no problem filling the Delta Connection 50-seat RJ flights they have to DTW, ATL and MSP. Delta has had to add two flights a day more to ATL and 2 to MSP. I can see the SBN market being moved up to 70-76 seaters as they have occasionally had these aircraft in there before. Delta would then use the 717's on Notre Dame football weekends similar to the use of the DC9-50's they use on those weekends today.


User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9512 posts, RR: 26
Reply 56, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 51775 times:

Bloomberg is also saying transition plan is 3 717's per month.


if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineMLI717fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 250 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 51773 times:

It'll be great to see the 717s continue to buzz around ATL.

Does anyone else see the irony in that it's agreed among many on this forum that the 717 was largely killed off by the RJ, and now the 717 is replacing a good chunk of DL's RJ fleet. Congrats to DL and the 717!


User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 51438 times:
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Quoting commavia: "Either way - smart move on Delta's part to take advantage of a favorable situation to replace tons of uneconomic RJ flying with larger, more efficient, relatively young/low-cycle jets. The only question now becomes which markets are going to get cut over the next few years as Delta largely exits the 50-seat flying business. Much of that flying is likely to move up to 70-76-seaters or larger, but there are also routes Delta is flying today that I think will struggle to profitably fill anything even that large."

SBN has no problem filling the Delta Connection 50-seat RJ flights they have to DTW, ATL and MSP. Delta has had to add two flights a day more to ATL and 2 to MSP. I can see the SBN market being moved up to 70-76 seaters as they have occasionally had these aircraft in there before. Delta would then use the 717's on Notre Dame football weekends similar to the use of the DC9-50's they use on those weekends today.


User currently offlineN471WN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1601 posts, RR: 2
Reply 59, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 51547 times:
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And of course the incredible irony is that Delta watched their old DC-9's come back to Atlanta as Critter Jets flying for the new start-up carrier ValuJet. Now the sucessor to ValuJet will see their jets come back to Atlanta in Delta colors---oh the IRONY!!

User currently offlineJetBlueAUS From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1145 posts, RR: 8
Reply 60, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 51438 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 58):
Bloomberg is also saying transition plan is 3 717's per month

I think this is a fantastic move made by Delta management in order to operate an efficient, profitable fleet. However how is this affecting AirTran pilot transitions into Southwest? Is Southwest going to lay off AirTran pilots? Are all AirTran pilots type rated on both the 717 and 737?



Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 61, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 51111 times:

Back to the subject of seats, will Delta keep the existing Recaro Y seats installed by AirTran, or will DL install their own such as the Weber 5751 or B/E Aerospace Pinnacle?


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1855 posts, RR: 4
Reply 62, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 50983 times:

When they say 50-seat RJs, do they mean both the CRJ-200 and the ERJ-145???

User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 50922 times:
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Delta is going to extensively remodel these jets (717's) with new interiors and Wi-FI.

User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 50892 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 29):
Obviously you haven't flown an AVOD-equipped DL aircraft lately.

Not to mention that Delta's AVOD systems are buggy and don't work much of the time.

Quoting N471WN (Reply 60):
And of course the incredible irony is that Delta watched their old DC-9's come back to Atlanta as Critter Jets flying for the new start-up carrier ValuJet. Now the sucessor to ValuJet will see their jets come back to Atlanta in Delta colors---oh the IRONY!!

Indeed!  

David


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7557 posts, RR: 23
Reply 65, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 50972 times:

Quoting MLI717fan (Reply 59):
Does anyone else see the irony in that it's agreed among many on this forum that the 717 was largely killed off by the RJ, and now the 717 is replacing a good chunk of DL's RJ fleet.
I wouldn't go that far. Last I checked, 717 production was terminated years ago. All this DL deal does is keep many of the existing 717s flying in the continental U.S. Which, mind you, is still a good thing IMHO.

That said, the RJ boom indeed contributed to the demise of the 717 production-wise.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineflyboy80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1880 posts, RR: 3
Reply 66, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 50711 times:

It will be interesting as more details develop. I wonder what type of distribution we'll see on this aircraft in the Network. Of course everyone is guessing ATL/NYC markets will see the airplane frequently given route characteristics- but is there a chance we could see these running in and out of SLC on the old Western System?

User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1642 posts, RR: 2
Reply 67, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 50667 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 47):
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 44):
Remember though - CR9s are said to have somewhat better economics for the airline than E-Jets. That may play trump in the final decision (accounting for price of course).

I remember hearing that NW preferred the E-175 over the CR9. This could also be a factor as well.

Indeed, as others have noted. I would be interested to know the cost delta between the two though, if it's significant or pretty minor and situational.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 50584 times:

Quoting diverdave (Reply 65):
Not to mention that Delta's AVOD systems are buggy and don't work much of the time.

Really? On my past DL AVOD flights the system worked flawlessly. DL's AVOD system is actually one of the more reliable systems out there; much more reliable than any Rockwell Collins system.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinegdg9 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 672 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 50480 times:

How many TWA 717-231s did AirTran take up? Based on some quick research it looks like 23, is that accurate?

User currently offlinecessna2 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 349 posts, RR: 2
Reply 70, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 50434 times:

WN's press release has more information in regards to timeline and they also confirm the aircraft will be subleased.

Article here: http://www.swamedia.com/releases/066...0ff189014d?int=GFOOTER-ABOUT-PRESS


User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 71, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 50343 times:

Quoting cv640 (Reply 17):
Even with these aircraft there is no way to hide what this contract really is. Way too many loop holes, way short on compensation, I can't believe our MEC signed off on this. I guess they've just given up and want DPA on property.

In what ways?

Quoting cv640 (Reply 21):
SWA can compete with us while paying their pilots 42% higher then us.

Compete with you how? I'm pretty sure SWA can't take me from, say, Mobile to Dubai.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13520 posts, RR: 100
Reply 72, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 49867 times:
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Quoting mayor (Reply 40):
Still has to be voted on..............

Thank you for the clarification.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 53):
WSJ link won't work in here for some reason

The don't. Why?

Quoting stlgph (Reply 57):
Bloomberg is also saying transition plan is 3 717's per month.

That is a healthy rate.  
Quoting freakyrat (Reply 59):
The only question now becomes which markets are going to get cut over the next few years as Delta largely exits the 50-seat flying business. Much of that flying is likely to move up to 70-76-seaters or larger, but there are also routes Delta is flying today that I think will struggle to profitably fill anything even that large."

Sadly true. Either grow or be dropped.

Quoting N471WN (Reply 60):
And of course the incredible irony is that Delta watched their old DC-9's come back to Atlanta as Critter Jets flying for the new start-up carrier ValuJet. Now the sucessor to ValuJet will see their jets come back to Atlanta in Delta colors---oh the IRONY!!

   It is ironic.

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 71):
WN's press release has more information in regards to timeline

What I find interesting is WN will keep their fleet 'flat' per that PR. What I also find interesting:
"Southwest affirms its current plans to maintain service to all previously announced airports."

In other words, WN isn't planning to grow for 3 years except for gauge. But they also are not planning to shrink.


For Boeing this is a big win. It removes the cloud over 717 support and should help Boeing find new 717 customers as needed.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6532 posts, RR: 9
Reply 73, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 49768 times:

[

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 73):
It removes the cloud over 717 support and should help Boeing find new 717 customers as needed.

What new customers could there be if the 717 production line has been shut down for quite a while.


User currently offlinelitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 49460 times:
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Quoting bobnwa (Reply 74):
What new customers could there be if the 717 production line has been shut down for quite a while.

Lease customers, I would assume, for existing examples of the type.

Like the 88 headed to DL.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 75, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 49566 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 72):
Compete with you how? I'm pretty sure SWA can't take me from, say, Mobile to Dubai.

WN can't seem to make money on the same levels as DL either  

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 61):
I think this is a fantastic move made by Delta management in order to operate an efficient, profitable fleet.

Sure. Now the pilots just have to agree to it, and generally speaking, given the choice of relaxed scope or death, pilots overwhelmingly choose the latter.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 605 posts, RR: 1
Reply 76, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 49192 times:

And start the "When will delta retire the MD-90/717's?" threads now that the DC-9's have replacements lol.

Glad to see this has finally been announced. Only bad thing about this is that we probably wont see any 717's in Southwest colors now since the first will be leaving only ~6 months from now...



Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlineDLX737200 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1954 posts, RR: 19
Reply 77, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 49006 times:

Quoting DL WIDGET HEAD (Reply 13):

No reason for them to do so. It's good for the pilots and it's good for the company.

Pilots on another forum seem to think this is a bad deal. From what I read, they feel DL will use these 88 717s to replace older narrowbodies in the fleet (makes sense) and in the end they won't end up with any more mainline flying then they have now. And to boot, DL will get 70 more RJs added to their fleet, ultimately increasing the flying done by contractors.

I really hope to see this deal happen because I always thought the 717 would be a good fit for Delta and it provides a solution to Southwest. But I wouldn't be surprised if this deal falls through because of pilots rejecting the TA.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 78, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 48325 times:

I also wonder what will be the ship numbers of these aircraft. The N-numbers will likely remain the same, but Delta will have to assign ship numbers to these aircraft.

The 91xx range is free (I actually wonder why DL jumped from 90xx to 92xx when they first got the MD-90).



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 79, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 48098 times:

Quoting diverdave (Reply 65):
Not to mention that Delta's AVOD systems are buggy and don't work much of the time.



Hmmm...let me ask you this. How often do you fly on DL 75Xs, 73Gs, or 73Hs? "Doesn't work much of the time". As much as I fly on DL (can't even count how many RTs I did in 2011) they system didn't go down once on any of my flights. I.e. didn't work at all. I've seen resets a few times but to say it doesn't work "much of the time" is a stretch.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinesxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 47980 times:

Quoting DLX737200 (Reply 79):
Pilots on another forum seem to think this is a bad deal. From what I read, they feel DL will use these 88 717s to replace older narrowbodies in the fleet (makes sense) and in the end they won't end up with any more mainline flying then they have now. And to boot, DL will get 70 more RJs added to their fleet, ultimately increasing the flying done by contractors.

The size of the 70-76 seat fleet is based on the size of the mainline flight. The only reason additional 70-76 aircraft are discussed is because the size of the mainline fleet will be increased.

This is not a new addition to the contract - its been in there for a while.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13520 posts, RR: 100
Reply 81, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 48071 times:
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Quoting bobnwa (Reply 74):
What new customers could there be if the 717 production line has been shut down for quite a while.

Boeing will still have lease returns to deal with. With the 88 spoken for, customers will be *far* more likely to lease a 717 than wait for an E-jet or C-series.

I counted 21 717s stored:
http://www.airfleets.net/listing/b717-3.htm

Having DL as both a potential source and 'sink' for 717s will help Boeing. Perhaps DL will take a few more 717s on lease? Perhaps later DL will 'release' a 717 in exchange for an early 737MAX slot? Without some flexibility, the 717 was dead. Without the funds coming in maintaining the 88, the 717 was a non-viable airframe. I suspect this deal is what was needed to keep the 717 flying for a decade plus.   

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 77):
And start the "When will delta retire the MD-90/717's?" threads now that the DC-9's have replacements lol.

   My first post on a.net had a comment 'and how about those NW DC-9s.'   (I had lurked for a year and was amused.)

Quoting DLX737200 (Reply 79):
they feel DL will use these 88 717s to replace older narrowbodies in the fleet (makes sense)

That it does. The DC-9-50 has its days numbered (end of 2015). I also suspect more than a few MD-80s will become beer can. (Total number dependent upon the '76 seater' delivery times.)

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5837 posts, RR: 6
Reply 82, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 47793 times:

Quite surprised this appears to be a lease of all 88 frames rather than a purchase, or at least a partial purchase. That doesn't really match DL's style of late. I'd also dearly love to know if WN will be chipping in...

User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 83, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 47544 times:

BTW, I was told at FT that DL will not be keeping the existing AirTran Recaro Y seats; DL will install their own seats. Most likely it will be either the Weber 5751 or B/E Aerospace Pinnacle, although DL might consider other options (such as the AvioInteriors UltraLight).


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineodysseus9001 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 47250 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 42):
No, it's all about making money, so unless those "conveniences" are drawing a premium. I travel frequently and noticed that since the introduction of tablets & explosive popularity of smart phones, fewer and fewer passengers are making use of their PTV, even on long-haul flights. AVOD systems are costly; don't expect other passengers will be willing to pay more for the enjoyment of a few passengers (usually kids). After all, they can always bring their Power Puff Girls & Dora The Explorer DVDs on board free of charge.


I also travel frequently and I see a lot of people using PTV. One thing I have noticed is that there is much more advertising on PTVs, such as for Lincoln cars and Marriott.

J


User currently offlineKFLLCFII From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3309 posts, RR: 30
Reply 85, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 45400 times:

What would make leasing them be a more attractive option than buying them outright from Boeing under a massive sweetheart deal?

Why wouldn't all parties want to be washed of the other, where Southwest is out of the leases, Boeing loses the uncertainty factor of all 88 frames, and Delta gains the cheap, economic, long-term, short-haul fleet it was looking for?

Doesn't this lease keep it a complicated three-party mess for years to come?



"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 86, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 45006 times:

So are the 717s pretty much going to replace the older DC-9s?

User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1654 posts, RR: 2
Reply 87, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 44865 times:

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 86):
What would make leasing them be a more attractive option than buying them outright from Boeing under a massive sweetheart deal?

We don't know the terms of the deal. There a lot of things that would make leasing more attractive than buying. First of all if the lease rates are very low, also could be easy-out clause (likely tied to purchases of new NG aircraft), etc.

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 86):


Why wouldn't all parties want to be washed of the other, where Southwest is out of the leases, Boeing loses the uncertainty factor of all 88 frames, and Delta gains the cheap, economic, long-term, short-haul fleet it was looking for?

Likely has to do with flexibility as it pertains to delivery of new aircraft.
Southwest will be out of the 717 business.
Boeing has a financing business, they are in the business of leasing airplanes, and since they also manufacture airplanes they can always use one side of the business to help the other. Say Boeing is behind on 737 deliveries, Boeing can lower the lease rates on the these planes and keep Delta placated until their new planes arrive. Or if Boeing has a customer that is struggling financially and cant take delivery of their early 737s, they can give the early planes to DL in exchange for early returns of the 717s that Boeing can then place with the other carrier that might be able to afford the cheaper 717s until their finances rebound to the point they can get the new planes. Win-win-win.
With favorable lease terms, Delta can enjoy the same benefits as if they purchased the aircraft and possible some tax advantages from the leases. And they can also negotiate a purchase from Boeing at the end of the lease if they decide they want to retain the birds long term. Most aircraft are leased anyway, because it a favorable means of financing. Even a lot of so-called 'owned' aircraft are actually financed using other methods and not truly owned by the airline.

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 86):

Doesn't this lease keep it a complicated three-party mess for years to come?

I highly doubt it will be a mess or complicated. I assume it is structured in a way that provides all 3 three parties a lot of flexibility in the future.


User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1150 posts, RR: 3
Reply 88, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 45012 times:
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Quoting seabosdca (Reply 83):

Quite surprised this appears to be a lease of all 88 frames rather than a purchase, or at least a partial purchase. That doesn't really match DL's style of late. I'd also dearly love to know if WN will be chipping in...

As Boeing really does NOT want to lease these 717s for less than what AirTran was paying, I think Southwest is taking a hit and leasing them to Delta for less than what they are paying Boeing, just to get rid of them. Delta may have drove a hard bargain and won at Southwest's expense.
Southwest may have bit off more than they could chew and this may one of the signs of their poor decisions that Southwest made in acquiring AirTran.   



Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
User currently offlinetztristar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1459 posts, RR: 9
Reply 89, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 44700 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 73):
It removes the cloud over 717 support

What cloud are you talking about? I've heard nothing about issues with 717 support.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 82):
Boeing will still have lease returns to deal with. With the 88 spoken for, customers will be *far* more likely to lease a 717 than wait for an E-jet or C-series.

I counted 21 717s stored:
http://www.airfleets.net/listing/b717-3.htm

Having DL as both a potential source and 'sink' for 717s will help Boeing. Perhaps DL will take a few more 717s on lease? Perhaps later DL will 'release' a 717 in exchange for an early 737MAX slot? Without some flexibility, the 717 was dead. Without the funds coming in maintaining the 88, the 717 was a non-viable airframe. I suspect this deal is what was needed to keep the 717 flying for a decade plus.

I wouldn't consider DL some sort of 'savior' for the type. Without this deal, it was clear they would leave the WN fleet over the next 5 years and time for BCC to find other interested parties, though it would be tough. Yes, its not been a great aircraft on the lease market.

As for DL taking more, your count of 21 stored while accurate is inaccurate in availability. The only aircraft not spoken for are the Turkmenistan aircraft. The remaining ex-MX/YX are allocated to Volotea.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 84):
BTW, I was told at FT that DL will not be keeping the existing AirTran Recaro Y seats; DL will install their own seats. Most likely it will be either the Weber 5751 or B/E Aerospace Pinnacle, although DL might consider other options (such as the AvioInteriors UltraLight).

While its not certain which seats they will choose, there will be an FAA/EASA STC to install the AVIO Ultralights in a125 pax layout for Volotea which should be issued in June/July.



35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1300 posts, RR: 4
Reply 90, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 44632 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 84):
BTW, I was told at FT that DL will not be keeping the existing AirTran Recaro Y seats; DL will install their own seats. Most likely it will be either the Weber 5751 or B/E Aerospace Pinnacle, although DL might consider other options (such as the AvioInteriors UltraLight).

Which seat is used on the MD90? Whichever it is I hope that the MD90 seat isn't destined for the 717's. I find them to be on par with a park bench.


User currently offlinedl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 91, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 43815 times:

has anyone else mentioned that we can finally retire those NW should buy the 717 threads?


Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 558 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 43877 times:

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 86):

Well we all know that the 717 fleet at WN was going to start coming at the end of their lease in either 2015 or 2017, not sure what year exactly, but at that time i'm sure the lessees will be going from WN to DL or maybe DL at that time will purchase them directly from Boeing. And as someone posted earlier apparently there are 21 more in storage that that could possibly pick up. And now with the accusation of the 717 the Saudi MD90s are now a possibility since they share a common type rating.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 93, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 43817 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 87):
So are the 717s pretty much going to replace the older DC-9s?

Yes and no.

DL currently has ~18 DC-9-50s still in service. The 717 is meant to be replacement capacity primarily for the remaining DC-9s, and for future 50-seat RJs that will be leaving the fleet within the next 5 years. Plus, this will backfill some of what has been lost through the retirements of the DC-9-30/40 fleets.

There are many routes out of ATL, DTW, MSP, and LGA that the 717 will be a good fit.


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 94, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 43593 times:

This is incredibly exciting and hopefully the beginning of the end of the constant downguaging and "right-sizing" that has taken place over the last decade. Can't wait to see 717s in DL colors! DL's going to be the king of the rear-engined aircraft amongst a sea of other airlines and boring wing-engined planes that all look the same from afar.

Jeremy


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 95, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 43381 times:

Also, this should bring a little peace of mind to the folks that were doubting DL's LGA intentions.
Now that DL has, once again, confirmed the importance of mainline and the importance of a legitimate Regional product, I feel that DL will prove to do extremely well in the NYC market overall.

Yes, DL introduced quite a few CR2's to the LGA market. It's obvious now: not for long...



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 96, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 43211 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 94):
There are many routes out of ATL, DTW, MSP, and LGA that the 717 will be a good fit.

Would love to see GFK get these birds.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 97, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 43233 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 94):
Quoting rj777 (Reply 87):
So are the 717s pretty much going to replace the older DC-9s?

Yes and no.

DL currently has ~18 DC-9-50s still in service. The 717 is meant to be replacement capacity primarily for the remaining DC-9s, and for future 50-seat RJs that will be leaving the fleet within the next 5 years. Plus, this will backfill some of what has been lost through the retirements of the DC-9-30/40 fleets.

I could see it replacing some 319s too; not sure if that's the plan though.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1213 posts, RR: 2
Reply 98, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 43002 times:
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Perfect aircraft to serve SRQ from DTW, MSP, LGA. There will be no AirTran/southwest presence there past mid Aug 2012.


The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 99, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 42976 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 95):
This is incredibly exciting and hopefully the beginning of the end of the constant downguaging and "right-sizing" that has taken place over the last decade.

I can see what you are thinking but it could also lead to more extreme decisions later on. Currently, DL has a larger range of aircraft (capacity) to pick from. Narrowing this selection may lead to some destination/frequency cutting as well...
Granted, after the initial "pain", you may see some more consistent service but then again, this is the airline industry... 



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 100, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 42911 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 98):
I could see it replacing some 319s too; not sure if that's the plan though.

No A319s are leaving the fleet anytime soon. The oldest A319s are from 1999.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 100):
I can see what you are thinking but it could also lead to more extreme decisions later on. Currently, DL has a larger range of aircraft (capacity) to pick from. Narrowing this selection may lead to some destination/frequency cutting as well...

Yes, but a bulk of the 50 seat RJ fleet is going to be parked in the next 3-5 years anyways. DL as it is now has too many single-class 50 seat RJs and not enough aircraft in the2-class 76-125 seat range based on their network.


User currently offlineDeltaRules From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3837 posts, RR: 9
Reply 101, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 42805 times:



Quoting N471WN (Reply 60):
And of course the incredible irony is that Delta watched their old DC-9's come back to Atlanta as Critter Jets flying for the new start-up carrier ValuJet. Now the sucessor to ValuJet will see their jets come back to Atlanta in Delta colors---oh the IRONY!!

This was the first thing that came to my mind. The planes that replaced Delta's DC-9s at FL will end up with Delta.

[Edited 2012-05-22 20:41:21]


Let's Kick the Tires & Light the Fires!!
User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10652 posts, RR: 14
Reply 102, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 42682 times:

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 67):
but is there a chance we could see these running in and out of SLC on the old Western System?

What is the hot & high performance of the 717? Is it worth it to fly it on routes out of SLC?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 733 posts, RR: 2
Reply 103, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 42663 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 101):

No A319s are leaving the fleet anytime soon. The oldest A319s are from 1999.

But A320s surely are within a few years...?


User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 558 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 42540 times:

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 104):

Yes they are but that's what the 737-900ER will be for, to replace early built 757, 767 domestic, and A320.


User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1213 posts, RR: 2
Reply 105, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 42479 times:
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Strategically within 2 years Delta can elect to grow their mainline fleet by 10% to take advantage of:
1. WN difficult integration with AirTran. At a minimum there are 13 markets being dropped by AirTran where a DL 717 or worse case a 2 class regional DCI jet makes sense.
2. CO/UA integration difficulties.
3. AA/US uncertainties
Depending on the competitive landscape they can tinker with, defer, or put off any planned MD88 drawdowns.



The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlinevatveng From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1010 posts, RR: 1
Reply 106, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 41949 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 103):
What is the hot & high performance of the 717?

Not great. They didn't handle Denver very well, had to leave pax behind when FL used them on DEN-ATL.



Visited VA,NC,PA,SC,FL,GA,OH,AL,TX,TN,CO,CA,UT,NV,NM,IN,KY,MD,MO,CT,MA,NH,ME.
User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10652 posts, RR: 14
Reply 107, posted (2 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 41686 times:

Quoting vatveng (Reply 107):
Quoting mayor (Reply 103):
What is the hot & high performance of the 717?

Not great. They didn't handle Denver very well, had to leave pax behind when FL used them on DEN-ATL.

So, that pretty well rules out summertime ops in SLC on the intermountain routes.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineDTWSXM From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (2 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 41686 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 87):

I was thinking the same thing but in terms of the DC9-30s that were parked soon after the NW merge. Delta retired paid for 110 seat DC-9-30s and are now acquiring leased 110 seat B717s.

Is there that great a difference in CASM, especially over shorter routes?

Cheers!
Chris



Sláinte
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 109, posted (2 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 41619 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 108):
So, that pretty well rules out summertime ops in SLC on the intermountain routes.

Well not necessarily. If they took a penalty going to ATL would that mean in would so the same on some of those old shorter SLC 727 routes to Bozeman, Pocatello, Great Falls, Pasco, etc.?


User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 757 posts, RR: 2
Reply 110, posted (2 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 41464 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 96):
Yes, DL introduced quite a few CR2's to the LGA market.

Actually, not that many. A lot of the new LGA flying is on CR7/CR9/E70/E75. And it seems that most of the 50-seaters will be ER4s (which I prefer to CR2s any day).


I think this deal will really establish DL as an industry leader in terms of customer experience. I think the existing 750-mile rule already sets DL above the rest, and the elimination of much of the 50-seater flying will put DL on a whole different level from UA, AA, and US. I can only hope that the pilots can reach a favorable deal with management, because it would seem that they will cause the company as a whole to miss out on an opportunity to gain a great competitive advantage if they reject this TA.

As far as I can tell, the biggest concern is the added 76-seaters. But they are only adding 70, while adding 88 mainline aircraft and subtracting several hundred 50-seaters. Seems like a significant net loss of RJs and a net gain in mainline flying... Am I missing something? Yes, some of the older mainline aircraft will be retired over the next few years, but there are also the used MD-90s and the new 737s coming online. I just don't see how people think the amount of mainline will decrease when so much RJ capacity is being eliminated and the company doesn't plan to significantly cut overall capacity.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineaviationbuff08 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 346 posts, RR: 0
Reply 111, posted (2 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 41251 times:

Quoting vatveng (Reply 107):
Not great. They didn't handle Denver very well, had to leave pax behind when FL used them on DEN-ATL.
Quoting mayor (Reply 103):
What is the hot & high performance of the 717? Is it worth it to fly it on routes out of SLC?



Well with DEN-ATL nearly 1200 miles and most of the routes that they would be used for out of SLC are 500-700 mile range and wouldn't likely leave passengers behind unless the physical runway at the airport is short or has some type of limitation.

Quoting Coronado (Reply 106):
Strategically within 2 years Delta can elect to grow their mainline fleet by 10% to take advantage of:
1. WN difficult integration with AirTran. At a minimum there are 13 markets being dropped by AirTran where a DL 717 or worse case a 2 class regional DCI jet makes sense.
2. CO/UA integration difficulties.
3. AA/US uncertainties
Depending on the competitive landscape they can tinker with, defer, or put off any planned MD88 drawdowns.



Well there is certainly a lot of opportunity for DL in the next 2-3 years to show the public that not only does DL provide reasonable cost airplane transportation but that the planes are comfortable and reliable compared to the other US airlines. The above listed issues with DL competitors are very real and likely to cause them problems in the not to distant future.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13520 posts, RR: 100
Reply 112, posted (2 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 41308 times:
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Quoting tztristar500 (Reply 90):
What cloud are you talking about? I've heard nothing about issues with 717 support.

The lack of engine PIPs has been a major issue with the 717. DL demanded and received some engine upgrade (I'd love to know the details) to extend the overhaul interval.

Quoting tztristar500 (Reply 90):
Without this deal, it was clear they would leave the WN fleet over the next 5 years and time for BCC to find other interested parties, though it would be tough.

Would BCC? That is the cloud. We've seen the 717s sit for extended times while Boeing looked for anyone to find more. I noted in post 82 that I count 21 in storage, more than 10% of the fleet already! If 88 717s sat idle, the economics of supporting the type would be horrid, in particular if any others became available. Vendors would no longer be obligated to support the type as part purchases would drop below contract minimums.

Anyway, overcome by events. DL is taking them.

Quoting DTWSXM (Reply 109):
Is there that great a difference in CASM, especially over shorter routes?

Per this older thread, on short routes, HA has the shortest, the cost per block hour was slightly less than the DC-9.
717 Vs DC9 (by Airlineguy Jun 10 2002 in Civil Aviation)

Since that thread was written, fuel costs have more than tripled and I'm sure DL is paying less for the lease. Thus, the 717 advantage will be higher. Also recall the NW DC-9s were getting on in the years. Eventually, the maintenance costs escalate.

Quoting vatveng (Reply 107):
Not great. They didn't handle Denver very well, had to leave pax behind when FL used them on DEN-ATL.

Which engine? The BMR 715-A1 or the MBR 715-C1?
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/717sec3.pdf

The 717 is simply not able to take off at high take off weights at altitude without the 21k thrust engines. If you look at figure 3.3.3, it is a break energy limit and whoa to performance on a wet day. Now figure 3.3.8 shows better performance.

Per this old thread, only some of the Airtran 717s have the 21k engine, just for the Denver flying:
AirTran Boeing 717 With BR715-C1-30 Engines? (by BR715-A1-30 Sep 14 2003 in Tech Ops)

With DL insisting on some form of new engine upgrade (for durability), I would suspect all of the engines would be converted to the C1 (or whatever letter surplants the C1) configuration that would provide enough thrust at SLC.

Although high performance is relative. However, comparing to the 73G, the 737 will have an easier time with payload at range from a hot/high airport:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/737sec3.pdf


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineBDL757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 113, posted (2 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 41096 times:

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 67):
is there a chance we could see these running in and out of SLC on the old Western System?

What about sending some of the 717s to LAX to maybe up-gauge or introduce some markets?


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 114, posted (2 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 40728 times:

I saw on Wiki that this purchase was to "replace the DC-9 fleet" but I know DL doesn't have 88 DC-9s....what will DL do with all of these 717s? What routes do you expect to see with them?


Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1150 posts, RR: 3
Reply 115, posted (2 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 40319 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 115):

I saw on Wiki that this purchase was to "replace the DC-9 fleet" but I know DL doesn't have 88 DC-9s....what will DL do with all of these 717s? What routes do you expect to see with them?

Delta has over 100 MD-80s along with about 20 DC-9-50s.   



Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
User currently onlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4064 posts, RR: 2
Reply 116, posted (2 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 40329 times:
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Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 54):
Passengers generally prefer the E175 over the CRJ-900, primarily due to the larger cabin, larger overheads and the rear galley makese the lav situation better.

The economics on most route profiles is generally better with the CRJ-900.

The E175 has better range and economics on the longer routes than the CRJ-900.

NW wanted/needed the E-175 for the ability to fly on some of the longer routes out of MSP that would push the limits of the CRJ-900.

Also with their aggresive delivery timeline, it was going to be difficult for any one manufacturer to deliver 72 frames in short time fra

It seems the best overall 76 seat a/c for them to go with will be the E75. It allows DL to fly longer, thin routes the CR7/CR9 are not able too. At the same time, passengers will be much more content on board an E75 versus the CR7/CR9.

Quoting flyboy80 (Reply 67):
t will be interesting as more details develop. I wonder what type of distribution we'll see on this aircraft in the Network. Of course everyone is guessing ATL/NYC markets will see the airplane frequently given route characteristics- but is there a chance we could see these running in and out of SLC on the old Western System?

I wouldn't be surprised to see these 712s placed on some of these new LGA routes where they need more capacity than the CR9/E75 but won't need the range of the E75. This is a very smart move on DL's part. These birds will also be great in markets like ATL-PVD/MHT/BUF/ALB/SYR/YUL/YYZ which are mainly flown with CRJ/CR7/CR9 and if you're lucky, a E75.

Out of SLC, I can see them flying them into markets such as SJC, BUR, ONT, TUS, ABQ, SMF since the majority of these markets are only flown with CR2s with a CR7/CR9 perhaps once a day and or a single A319/A320.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 98):

I could see it replacing some 319s too; not sure if that's the plan though

MaverickM11, I don't think we'll see DL replace A319s with 712s. The A319s are relatively new compared to some of the A320s which were very early builds, The 712s also don't have the range the A319s do which I think we'll see flying more midcon markets.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4615 posts, RR: 23
Reply 117, posted (2 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 40224 times:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 89):
As Boeing really does NOT want to lease these 717s for less than what AirTran was paying, I think Southwest is taking a hit and leasing them to Delta for less than what they are paying Boeing, just to get rid of them. Delta may have drove a hard bargain and won at Southwest's expense.
Southwest may have bit off more than they could chew and this may one of the signs of their poor decisions that Southwest made in acquiring AirTran.

Lot of assuming in your post. We'll probably see lease rates discussed once DL ALPA agrees. I don't see why WN would lease them out at a loss. I would expect more revenue neutral than anything. Worst case WN is out from under them in a few years as leases expire.

A lot of arm chair QBs on here judging the FL acquisition when we really won't know how it will all turn out until it is completely done. Not many mergers have gone through smoothly recently and usually always have some issue. Are there hurdles? You bet. Will they be over come? That is up to the team at WN. We'll have a very good understanding this time next year on where things stand.


User currently offlinesuper80 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (2 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 39135 times:

What are the chance that Delta will put the B717 in the LGA hub? I think it will be a good fit for some east coast flying from their new LGA hub? thought ?

User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 558 posts, RR: 0
Reply 119, posted (2 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 38803 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 111):

Spot on. If this deal goes thru DL will be the only airline to claim that over 1100 aircraft, probably 95% of their fleet will have fist class on them, wifi, and economy comfort. That is a huge advantage that marketing should and needs to exploit to its full. This would enable a very consistent product across the board and help them win some more corporate revenue, especially if they decide to deploy some of these 717 to LGA and put 70 seaters on CRJ routes. I also feel that they will use this opportunity to expand LAX more.


User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3408 posts, RR: 9
Reply 120, posted (2 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 38671 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 115):
What routes do you expect to see with them?

As others have noted, probably several ex-LGA routes. I also think will see some deployed ex-ATL to markets such as SAV may see some. I also expect to see a return of (more) M/L to the former "Heartland" markets (MSN, FAR, MCI, IND, etc.) out of MSP/DTW that switched to DCI flying with the retirements of the DC9's.

All guesses, of course...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineSkyTeamTriStar From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 404 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (2 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 37358 times:

Who's going to fly these 717s? Did somebody already post something about that? Will DL train their Pilots to fly them or take-on FL Pilots who already know how to fly them?? Did I miss that comment already?

User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (2 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 37191 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 80):

Hmmm...let me ask you this. How often do you fly on DL 75Xs, 73Gs, or 73Hs? "Doesn't work much of the time". As much as I fly on DL (can't even count how many RTs I did in 2011) they system didn't go down once on any of my flights. I.e. didn't work at all. I've seen resets a few times but to say it doesn't work "much of the time" is a stretch.

I fly at least monthly thank you very much. Out of my last four flight with AVOD, one was dead (A330), and another one (757) reset itself about every 30 minutes or so. Having to restart a movie 3 or 4 times = doesn't work in my opinion.

Overall, I'm looking at maybe one quarter of my flights in the past year with IFE issues. That equals much of the time in my book.

You can also visit the delta forum at flyertalk.com and the opinion of the Delta AVOD systems is rather low there. It's pretty common for Delta to send out unsolicated skypesos for AVOD/IFE failures in flight.

David


User currently offlineskyymarc From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (2 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 37124 times:

Quoting N471WN (Reply 60):
And of course the incredible irony is that Delta watched their old DC-9's come back to Atlanta as Critter Jets flying for the new start-up carrier ValuJet. Now the sucessor to ValuJet will see their jets come back to Atlanta in Delta colors---oh the IRONY!!
Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 102):
This was the first thing that came to my mind. The planes that replaced Delta's DC-9s at FL will end up with Delta.

This industry never ceases to amaze me. When I saw this come to pass my thoughts mirrored the quotes above. I remember while working some of our first FL flights to MSP a NW FO came aboard to check out our then new 717. He remarked as he left that if he was lucky he would get his hands on one when we retired them. Well I guess he might get his wish. I'm sure he would have preferred to see it in NW colors. It will be bittersweet to see these birds in DL colors but I'm glad that DL has found value in them because they are great planes. 717s will continue to grace the skies!


User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 757 posts, RR: 2
Reply 124, posted (2 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 37040 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 115):
What routes do you expect to see with them?

Probably a lot of filling in on former/current DC-9 routes, plus some new stuff from LGA. I think all of the following are possibilities:

MSP-YWG, MSP-DFW, MSP-OMA, MSP-FSD, MSP-BIS, MSP-MOT, MSP-FAR, MSP-GFK, MSP-MCI, MSP-STL, MSP-MSN, MSP-GRB, MSP-ORD, MSP-IND, MSP-GRR, MSP-CMH, MSP-MEM, MSP-PIT

DTW-YYZ, DTW-YUL, DTW-MCI, DTW-STL, DTW-MSN, DTW-GRB, DTW-MKE, DTW-ORD, DTW-IND, DTW-GRR, DTW-CMH, DTW-CVG, DTW-SDF, DTW-MEM, DTW-BNA, DTW-CLT, DTW-RDU, DTW-RIC, DTW-ORF, DTW-IAD, DTW-BWI, DTW-PIT, DTW-PHL, DTW-EWR, DTW-BUF, DTW-ROC, DTW-SYR, DTW-ALB, DTW-BDL, DTW-PVD, DTW-MHT

ATL-MKE, ATL-ORD, ATL-IND, ATL-GRR, ATL-FNT, ATL-CLE, ATL-CAK, ATL-DAY, ATL-SDF, ATL-LEX, ATL-MEM, ATL-BNA, ATL-TYS, ATL-JAN, ATL-HSV, ATL-BHM, ATL-PNS, ATL-SAV, ATL-AGS, ATL-CHS, ATL-MYR, ATL-GSP, ATL-GSO, ATL-PHF, ATL-IAD, ATL-PIT, ATL-MDT, ATL-ABE, ATL-YYZ

LGA-MCI, LGA-STL, LGA-MKE, LGA-IND, LGA-CMH, LGA-CVG, LGA-MEM, LGA-BNA, LGA-JAX, LGA-RDU, LGA-BUF, LGA-PWM

You get the idea.


It will be interesting to see what happens to CVG/MEM as a result of this agreement. One the one hand there will be less 50-seaters, which make up a significant proportion of the current service from both airports. One the other hand there will be a bunch of 717s, which are probably a much more appropriately sized aircraft to do mainline flying on routes like CVG-ORD and MEM-DFW.

I would expect the largest non-hub 717 stations to be in the Midwest (e.g. MKE, ORD, IND) since they could be served by 717s from all hubs where they are likely to be used. This would allow the potential for creative/flexible aircraft routing.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 125, posted (2 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 36458 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
I hope DL puts AVOD on these aircraft, although it is unlikely due to these aircraft primarily being used to replace RJ flying.

1. I think the 717 will be flying too short LOH for AVOD
2. AVOD is soooooo 2006. The future is using your mobile device to log on to the airline's inflight database to get your entertainment. Kinda like Go-Go but probably much cheaper.


On another issue. Anyone think that it is significant that DL can make money with 717s but WN cant?


User currently offlinejetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3365 posts, RR: 35
Reply 126, posted (2 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 36120 times:

Quoting diverdave (Reply 123):
You can also visit the delta forum at flyertalk.com and the opinion of the Delta AVOD systems is rather low there. It's pretty common for Delta to send out unsolicated skypesos for AVOD/IFE failures in flight.

When has anyone at flyer talk.com had a positive opinion about anything? If you are doing your market research there, you don't know anything.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 127, posted (2 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 35884 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 126):
2. AVOD is soooooo 2006. The future is using your mobile device to log on to the airline's inflight database to get your entertainment. Kinda like Go-Go but probably much cheaper.

I have went over that myth several times already. AVOD isn't going anywhere. While I agree that it is unlikely that Delta will install it on the 717 fleet, the 739ERs will have AVOD factory-installed, and I don't see that changing.

On my flight on PHX-JFK last Thursday/Friday, I saw far more people using the IFE than using their tablets.

[Edited 2012-05-23 07:02:10]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 128, posted (2 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 35876 times:

Quoting Noise (Reply 63):
When they say 50-seat RJs, do they mean both the CRJ-200 and the ERJ-145???

Not sure if anyone else answered this for you, I tried scrolling down.

Delta actually owns a lot of the CRJs and they would sub lease them to Mesaba and Pinnacle, plus Delta owns Comair. The ERJs are owned by Republic and Chatauqua. The CRJs that Delta owns would be retired. The ERJs, Delta would probably just drop the contract with those carriers and you would see someone else like US or United pick it up with the ERJs eventually flying in their colors. In fact, if Delta wanted to keep 50 seaters around, the contract company owned aircraft might be the ones that would stay around. I think a CRJ-900/E175 is too big for a route like DTW-Alpena MI, ATL-Vidalia GA or MSP to a small town in N. Dakota. I think they will still keep a handful for those routes. A lot of those routes you can't close unless you have some sort of Essential Air Service. For example the next closest airport to Alpena MI would probably be Saginaw - well over 100 miles away, closest to Vidalia would be either Macon or Tallahassee both over 100 miles away


User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (2 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 35648 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 115):
I saw on Wiki that this purchase was to "replace the DC-9 fleet" but I know DL doesn't have 88 DC-9s....what will DL do with all of these 717s? What routes do you expect to see with them?

Nearly every article on the subject makes light of the fact that the 717 purchase will be used to eliminate some 50-seat jets in addition to replacing the remaining DC-9s. Clearly, as much of this discussion has noted, it will not be a 1:1 replacement, but rather the 717's will likely take over in many markets already mentioned where one 717 could replace two CR2 flights, or maybe a 717 could take over for some of the larger RJ flights which will in turn take over for the 50-seaters. There will very likely be reductions in frequency, which should be no surprise to anyone given high fuel prices which are here to stay.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 126):

On another issue. Anyone think that it is significant that DL can make money with 717s but WN cant?

I don't think anyone is surprised by that. It's no secret that WN has a higher cost structure than many of the legacies these days.



SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlinelat41 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (2 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 35516 times:

This bodes well for the medium cities on the DL system who were faced with shrinking choices on lower density routes and off peak times as the original RJs are just too expensive to operate. Maybe the process of jacking up fares and choking off traffic will at least be slowed at places like ALB, SYR, ROC PVD ORF and the like.

User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (2 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 35435 times:

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 127):
When has anyone at flyer talk.com had a positive opinion about anything? If you are doing your market research there, you don't know anything.

I'm not doing my market research there. I'm offering my own experiences, including two this year and also getting 15K miles unsolicited late last year for a flight SEA-ATL that had a dead IFE system. (I received an unsolicited apology e-mail within 24 hours, and the miles came shortly after that.)

I also pointed to a forum where members describe frequent failures of the IFE systems on Delta. There are lots of negative threads there, but there are some positive threads there as well. Folks seem to really like the Porsche rides.

Cheers,
David


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 132, posted (2 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 35450 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 117):
MaverickM11, I don't think we'll see DL replace A319s with 712s. The A319s are relatively new compared to some of the A320s which were very early builds, The 712s also don't have the range the A319s do which I think we'll see flying more midcon markets.
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 101):
No A319s are leaving the fleet anytime soon. The oldest A319s are from 1999.

The 319 is newish and long range but the overwhelming majority of 319 departures are well within the 717 range, and NW was pretty quick to get rid of 319s in CH11 due to their unit costs, regardless of age.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineKingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1304 posts, RR: 10
Reply 133, posted (2 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 35420 times:

Something to consider for the IFE argument: PTV-style IFE isn't going anywhere until either a) PED batteries become more advanced, and/or b) regular 3-prong power outlets are installed in Y for every seat (i.e., 3 for every 3 seats, not 2 for every 3 like on some airlines). A laptop or tablet is useless if you just came off a long-haul flight and still have a transcon, and don't have time to charge it up.

Also I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but some interesting thoughts:
-DL operated some of the first DC-9-10s built, and now they're going to be flying some of the final MD-family aircraft built
-A number of the 717s were originally with TWA, so they'll be having a reunion with their long lost 757-231 (75E) buddies! 

-J.



Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 134, posted (2 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 35191 times:

Quoting diverdave (Reply 132):
I'm not doing my market research there. I'm offering my own experiences, including two this year and also getting 15K miles unsolicited late last year for a flight SEA-ATL that had a dead IFE system. (I received an unsolicited apology e-mail within 24 hours, and the miles came shortly after that.)

I also pointed to a forum where members describe frequent failures of the IFE systems on Delta. There are lots of negative threads there, but there are some positive threads there as well. Folks seem to really like the Porsche rides.

Cheers,
David

If you think Delta's Panasonic system is unreliable, then you would have absolutely hated QF's old Rockwell Collins system. That was one of the most unreliable IFE systems ever. QF eventually gave Rockwell Collins the boot, replacing it with a Panasonic system.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently onlineNWADC9 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4898 posts, RR: 9
Reply 135, posted (2 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 35190 times:

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 134):
Also I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but some interesting thoughts:
-DL operated some of the first DC-9-10s built, and now they're going to be flying some of the final MD-family aircraft built
-A number of the 717s were originally with TWA, so they'll be having a reunion with their long lost 757-231 (75E) buddies!

Another interesting tidbit, they would operate a sample from each member of the DC-9 family: DC-9-50, MD-88, MD-90, 717. Don't know of any other airlines who have done so.

Picturing a 717 in the livery of the enemy should be easy - take an MD-90 and shrink it to DC-9 size  



Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1150 posts, RR: 3
Reply 136, posted (2 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 35172 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

If Delta acquires The Boeing 717, MD-95, they will have every model of the DC-9,except the DC-9-21.   


Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 137, posted (2 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 35046 times:

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 137):
If Delta acquires The Boeing 717, MD-95, they will have every model of the DC-9,except the DC-9-21.

Delta never operated the MD-87, actually.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 138, posted (2 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 35027 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 69):
Really? On my past DL AVOD flights the system worked flawlessly.
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 80):
Hmmm...let me ask you this. How often do you fly on DL 75Xs, 73Gs, or 73Hs? "Doesn't work much of the time". As much as I fly on DL (can't even count how many RTs I did in 2011) they system didn't go down once on any of my flights. I.e. didn't work at all. I've seen resets a few times but to say it doesn't work "much of the time" is a stretch.

The touch system is most definitely buggy. Although it's usually operable, the touch screen can be extremely sensitive. Countless times I've given up trying to change channels or programming because I've become so frustrated. The system often resets and it's not uncommon to find audio that's flawed (volume's too low but set high, doesn't work in one ear, doesn't work at all, etc.) Many of these installations are going on 10-years, and that probably has a lot to do with it.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 127):
When has anyone at flyer talk.com had a positive opinion about anything? If you are doing your market research there, you don't know anything.

Regardless of your opinion of FT, it's telling when a large group of frequent flyers experience problems with the AVOD system that the Delta fanboys describe as "flawless." It certainly seems all AVOD systems become problematic with age, significantly more-so than their non-on demand predecessors. My original point was that I don't believe DL will migrate its aging systems from any 75X it retires in the near future. These systems would be close to 15-years-old, anyway, before that time came.

And FWIW, if you did your market research on a.net, you'd be wasting millions investing in Albuquerque Airlines, the all-widebody airline with various PTV systems, fancy pink seats and Blossom as its spokesperson -- move over Dusty the Air Lion  .



Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10652 posts, RR: 14
Reply 139, posted (2 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 34878 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 110):
Well not necessarily. If they took a penalty going to ATL would that mean in would so the same on some of those old shorter SLC 727 routes to Bozeman, Pocatello, Great Falls, Pasco, etc.?

For some reason this sticks in my mind, but I can remember from the 727 weight and balance manuals, that at SLC, a 727-200 took a 1000 lb. weight penalty for every degree, once you reached 77f. Didn't take long for that to happen in summer. Now, that was before the newest, longest runway was built, so I'm sure things might have changed once that happened. As for those shorter routes, I'm thinking it was because of zero fuel weight on routes that short.


Considering those routes, PIH was already being flown by OO once the DL/WA merger took place and I believe the others were 737-200 cities, for the most part.

[Edited 2012-05-23 08:12:18]


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineMLI717fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 250 posts, RR: 0
Reply 140, posted (2 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 34849 times:

While they're all twins, DL will be operating with a fleet of some of the more unique versions of common jets....

MD-90-30
B-717-200
B-757-300
B-767-400

Maybe they should pick up a few 736's for good measure....  


User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2012 posts, RR: 6
Reply 141, posted (2 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 34759 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 129):
. I think a CRJ-900/E175 is too big for a route like DTW-Alpena MI, ATL-Vidalia GA or MSP to a small town in N. Dakota. I think they will still keep a handful for those routes. A lot of those routes you can't close unless you have some sort of Essential Air Service. For example the next closest airport to Alpena MI would probably be Saginaw - well over 100 miles away, closest to Vidalia would be either Macon or Tallahassee both over 100 miles away

To my knowledge, Vidalia, GA, the home of sweet onions has never had scheduled airline service, and is served through SAV. Were you referring to Valdosta, GA, the home of Moody AFB and Valdosta State University, and the largest metro area in South Central, Georgia, which has a population of about 140,000 people? I think Valdosta can support 65 seat CRJ-700's or E-170's.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 142, posted (2 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 34729 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 129):
Delta actually owns a lot of the CRJs and they would sub lease them to Mesaba and Pinnacle, plus Delta owns Comair. The ERJs are owned by Republic and Chatauqua. The CRJs that Delta owns would be retired. The ERJs, Delta would probably just drop the contract with those carriers and you would see someone else like US or United pick it up with the ERJs eventually flying in their colors.

The situation is much more complicated that that and the draw-down on 50 seaters will depend on multiple factors.
- Aircraft that are "owned" by DL are still being paid for by DL. DL will need to decide if it is more cost-effective to park the an aircraft and still make payment
- Aircraft that are leased by DL, same situation. DL could pay the break the lease if it makes sense
- Aircraft leased by contract carriers. Frankly DL doesn't care about how those aircraft are being paid but they do care about the terms and conditions of their air service agreements with the contract carriers

- All aircraft, DL has to abide by the terms and conditions of the air service agreements. DL simply can't just "walk away" without negotiation or agreement of all parties involved. That being said, some air service agreements are up for renewal in the next few years and/or have clauses that allow them to ammend the aircraft and add/remove aircraft.

Bombardier and the contract carriers are not charities so they aren't going to take a financial hit for goodwill. DL could negotiate with BBD to essentially "trade-in" some of the 50 seat CRJs for larger 70/76 seat RJs.

It will be interesting to see how they orchestrate the 50 seat retirements.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 129):
In fact, if Delta wanted to keep 50 seaters around, the contract company owned aircraft might be the ones that would stay around.

Not necessarily, see above.

No one is going to want to pick up any additional 50 seat flying.

Again, by 2020 there will still be at least 75-100 CRJs on the DL Connection fleet. There are still viable routes where these aircraft make sense. Plus there are still some relatively young aircraft in the fleet that are not at the age yet where the maintenance has become uneconomical.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 129):
I think a CRJ-900/E175 is too big for a route like DTW-Alpena MI, ATL-Vidalia GA or MSP to a small town in N. Dakota. I think they will still keep a handful for those routes. A lot of those routes you can't close unless you have some sort of Essential Air Service. For example the next closest airport to Alpena MI would probably be Saginaw - well over 100 miles away, closest to Vidalia would be either Macon or Tallahassee both over 100 miles away

Well, the EAS stuff is bid based on the expected cost. Skywest just bid on the CRJ for DTW-APN-MSP.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 127):

When has anyone at flyer talk.com had a positive opinion about anything? If you are doing your market research there, you don't know anything.

Seriously. FT has really deterioriated into a complaint, and often trival complaint forum. Similar to APC, I really am being to think that FT as well represent a radical faction of the general populance of frequent fliers and pilots respectively.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 126):

On another issue. Anyone think that it is significant that DL can make money with 717s but WN cant?

It shows the difference in revenue generation potential the 717 has in each others fleet and network.

Quoting SkyTeamTriStar (Reply 122):
Who's going to fly these 717s? Did somebody already post something about that? Will DL train their Pilots to fly them or take-on FL Pilots who already know how to fly them?? Did I miss that comment already?

DL pilots.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 117):
MaverickM11, I don't think we'll see DL replace A319s with 712s. The A319s are relatively new compared to some of the A320s which were very early builds, The 712s also don't have the range the A319s do which I think we'll see flying more midcon markets.

No the 717s are more of a short/medium haul aircraft, capable of doing more cycles per day.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 143, posted (2 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 34654 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 133):
The 319 is newish and long range but the overwhelming majority of 319 departures are well within the 717 range, and NW was pretty quick to get rid of 319s in CH11 due to their unit costs, regardless of age.

NW was able to shed excess/ high ownership cost aircraft in Ch. 11. Additionally they had an opportunity to sell some newer A319s. There was demand (at the time) for these newer A319s versus no demand for the well used DC-9-50s.

DL is not getting rid of A319s now.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 144, posted (2 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 33862 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 139):
Regardless of your opinion of FT, it's telling when a large group of frequent flyers experience problems with the AVOD system that the Delta fanboys describe as "flawless." It certainly seems all AVOD systems become problematic with age, significantly more-so than their non-on demand predecessors. My original point was that I don't believe DL will migrate its aging systems from any 75X it retires in the near future. These systems would be close to 15-years-old, anyway, before that time came.

When the IFE works, most people simply aren't vocal about it. Fact is, DL's IFE system is one of the more reliable systems out there.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineTan Flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1920 posts, RR: 0
Reply 145, posted (2 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 33758 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 94):
There are many routes out of ATL, DTW, MSP, and LGA that the 717 will be a good fit.

any speculation on cities that may get a return of mainline service to any of those hubs? Places like FWA, SBN, Etc. There are a number of quality places in the midwest that should qualify.

And is there any speculation that a group of frames would be based out of SLC...for runs to FAT/ BIL, etc?


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6532 posts, RR: 9
Reply 146, posted (2 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 33742 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 145):
When the IFE works, most people simply aren't vocal about it. Fact is, DL's IFE system is one of the more reliable systems out there.

Where are getting this information from, or is that just your opinion that Delta's IFE is one of the most reliable.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 147, posted (2 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 33695 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 147):
Where are getting this information from, or is that just your opinion that Delta's IFE is one of the most reliable.

Well, it sure beats any Rockwell Collins system in reliability, that is for sure.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineWeb From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 427 posts, RR: 0
Reply 148, posted (2 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 33758 times:

Quoting Coronado (Reply 99):
Perfect aircraft to serve SRQ from DTW, MSP, LGA. There will be no AirTran/southwest presence there past mid Aug 2012.

DL is already on it; they are launching LGA-SRQ on December 15:

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1621



Next flight: GRR-ORD-PDX-SEA-ORD-GRR
User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 149, posted (2 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 33499 times:

Res the IFEs and Wifi/ pads dispute. If passengers were offered the choice of IFE versus Wifi plus charging station what would the vote be? For me a no brainer, chance of charging various devices would be the winner.


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 150, posted (2 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 33509 times:

Well, Embraer's backlog is down, so DL may not have to wait all that long. Perhaps a timely chance to get good pricing too. . .


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 151, posted (2 years 7 months 10 hours ago) and read 33528 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 145):
When the IFE works, most people simply aren't vocal about it. Fact is, DL's IFE system is one of the more reliable systems out there

Then I must be the unluckyest Delta FF flying today. Mine hardly ever works when I go to use it. YMMV.

I also am very happy DL is getting these planes. I love the DC family. Find them to be quiet and smooth up front.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 152, posted (2 years 7 months 10 hours ago) and read 33487 times:

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 150):
Res the IFEs and Wifi/ pads dispute. If passengers were offered the choice of IFE versus Wifi plus charging station what would the vote be? For me a no brainer, chance of charging various devices would be the winner.

But not everyone is willing to spend the money on a tablet. Unless Delta gives huge incentives for everyone to buy tablets, AVOD is here to stay. Based on the posts in this thread, the pro-tablet crowd seems to be acting as if they want Delta to remove AVOD from their planes and force everyone to use tablets.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 153, posted (2 years 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 33069 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 153):
But not everyone is willing to spend the money on a tablet. Unless Delta gives huge incentives for everyone to buy tablets, AVOD is here to stay. Based on the posts in this thread, the pro-tablet crowd seems to be acting as if they want Delta to remove AVOD from their planes and force everyone to use tablets.

Who implied such? Notebook computers, smart phones and tablets have enjoyed explosive growth in popularity in recent years; for many people, they provide the primary form of entertainment. I'd bet my life that if you were to perform a scientific survey asking passengers over 13 'would you rather have complimentary internet access and charging stations on your flights, or would you prefer a state-of-the-art on-demand entertainment system,' the overwhelming response would be in favor of the former.

I certainly don't judge you by your PTV fetish; however, you need to recognize that this form of entertainment's appeal is dwindling and wouldn't make much sense to impose on 717 or RJ flights (which will top-out at about 2.5 hours). Choice and convenience is a plus, but unless it's making money, it doesn't make sense.



Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6532 posts, RR: 9
Reply 154, posted (2 years 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 33052 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 148):
Well, it sure beats any Rockwell Collins system in reliability, that is for sure.

I guess you would know since you seem to be an expert on AVOD, IFE and all thngs concerning the B764.


User currently offlinevatveng From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1010 posts, RR: 1
Reply 155, posted (2 years 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 33006 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 113):
Quoting vatveng (Reply 107):
Not great. They didn't handle Denver very well, had to leave pax behind when FL used them on DEN-ATL.

Which engine? The BMR 715-A1 or the MBR 715-C1?

It was in 2003, so I don't remember. But I do remember the gate agent begging for volunteers on a scorching July afternoon. "Due to the heat outside we are unable to take off fully loaded" etc. I remember reading that AirTran was using the former TWA 717s on the Denver flight, but I couldn't tell you if it was before or after my 2003 flight.

I flew the 717 DEN-ATL again in late September 2004, and while there wasn't a heat issue, the 717 still had performance issues getting out of Denver with a full gas tank even with less than half the seats filled. That was on N945AT. I did a trip report on that flight:


AirTran To The Rocky Mountains (by Vatveng Oct 5 2004 in Trip Reports)



Visited VA,NC,PA,SC,FL,GA,OH,AL,TX,TN,CO,CA,UT,NV,NM,IN,KY,MD,MO,CT,MA,NH,ME.
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6643 posts, RR: 2
Reply 156, posted (2 years 7 months 6 hours ago) and read 32734 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 154):
Who implied such? Notebook computers, smart phones and tablets have enjoyed explosive growth in popularity in recent years; for many people, they provide the primary form of entertainment. I'd bet my life that if you were to perform a scientific survey asking passengers over 13 'would you rather have complimentary internet access and charging stations on your flights, or would you prefer a state-of-the-art on-demand entertainment system,' the overwhelming response would be in favor of the former.

So then, first, explain why I saw more people using the IFE on my flight than I saw using their laptops or tablets? Second, most people don't use on-board Wi-Fi for entertainment; most people use it for business.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8366 posts, RR: 23
Reply 157, posted (2 years 7 months 6 hours ago) and read 32679 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 157):
Second, most people don't use on-board Wi-Fi for entertainment; most people use it for business.

How could you possibly know that?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 157):
So then, first, explain why I saw more people using the IFE on my flight than I saw using their laptops or tablets?

Obviously, if a plane has AVOD installed, then 100% of the pax will have access to it. However, in order to have access to an ipad or laptop, you'd need to bring your own. Law of averages, then, there's always going to be more people using the pre-installed 100% available IFE. That said, you seriously went around the whole airplane and counted? That said, who cares?!



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 158, posted (2 years 7 months 5 hours ago) and read 32613 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 157):
Second, most people don't use on-board Wi-Fi for entertainment; most people use it for business.

I fly 90% of the time for business, and when I do use wi-fi I use it 100% of the time for entertainment.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12945 posts, RR: 25
Reply 159, posted (2 years 7 months 5 hours ago) and read 32574 times:

I think this IFE vs WiFi death match has lost touch with the main topic of DL's plans for the 717.....

Maybe it's time for a separate IFE vs WiFi death match thread?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 160, posted (2 years 7 months 4 hours ago) and read 32314 times:
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TanFlyr (Reply 146) "any