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EL AL Launches New Economy Class  
User currently offlineMike909 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 52 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12161 times:

A new EL AL economy product is going on sale this Wednesday, being fitted to LY's 744 fleet, firstly being used on the routes to JFK, LHR and CDG.

http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=271054

According to the article, apart from upgraded legroom and recline, it doesn't really appear to me to be a 'new' economy class.
Does anyone have any more details on this new product, and what are your general thoughts on it?

Mike

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1243 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 12031 times:

it's in hebrew, but you can see a photo of the new Y+ seat here:

http://www.mako.co.il/news-money/con...Ch=31750a2610f26110&pId=1806317738



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineMike909 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 11148 times:

Doesn't look that different.
When each 744 is being fitted with this new Y product?


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26507 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 11053 times:

Just got an email from them looks similar to UA E+ . Shame the PTVs are so small if the picture is correct. Legroom is always welcome but will people pay the fee ?




AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1243 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 10973 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
but will people pay the fee ?

From what I heard at the press conference yesterday it's mainly to upgrade frequent flyer passengers. I doubt people will pay extra without additional luggage and lounge access.



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3038 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10084 times:

As far as Y+ goes, it's hardly a compelling proposition. Guess it depends what competitor airlines are offering on the routes... what routes will it be employed on and what are the competitor airlines on those routes?


come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineMike909 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9766 times:

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 5):
what routes will it be employed on and what are the competitor airlines on those routes?

As far as I know, starting with LHR, CDG and JFK.

LHR competition has 2 daily BA flights, either on a 772 or 763 - better Y and Y+, but more expensive.
Big competition to LY serving London nowadays is EZY, offering much cheaper flights. Although you have no PTVs or anything, saving the money is extremely worth it, for a 4 and a half hour flight, especially with all our iPads etc nowadays, passengers barely care about the lack of entertainment. EL AL's entertainment system is outdated, so BA is the real competition in terms of product offered, but EZY in terms of passengers.

CDG, main competition is AF, although I think Israeli charters such as Arkia and Israir may occasionally serve CDG during high demand.

Competition direct to JFK, is only DL, although UA has two daily flights to EWR.
For these longer flights, passengers who cannot bare EL AL's ancient economy class, flying DL or UA to EWR will be the better option, which might just be why LY felt the need to launch this new Y product.


User currently offlinewindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8936 times:

It looks awful! If this is economy plus...!

Come on El Al!!! The planes are super old, but the interiors don't have to be!

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineq120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8714 times:

wow. a nice waste of money. bravo EL AL.


However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8714 times:

I am confused, is this a new Y+ offering, or updated Y? Even in this thread there seems to be confusion. If it is freshened Y, it looks OK - a la the new LH Y class - but I doubt it is looking at the ad. If it is Y+ which I suspect it is, it doesn't look like much of a proposition.

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26507 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8685 times:

Quoting windshear (Reply 7):

They could have done something with the seats like AZ have . Now that's a classy product. Or even go for TK style Comfort class. It would be good to have such a product. Having flown on BMI's A330 PE service to TLV when they operated it EL AL could have upped the game over many European carriers that operate into TLV. This seat looks like the old OA seats on the A340 used a decade ago.



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlineMike909 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8204 times:

Recently, LY has been trying to revolutionise the long-haul fleet, and on their 2 newer 772s, 4X-ECE and 4X-ECF, the Y product seems like it's from a complete different airline. Although there is no difference to the seat comfort, each row of 3 economy seats, has 2 power points available to them - a feature that not all, more modernised, leading airlines have yet, in Y class. In addition, there is mood lighting which creates a much better ambience.
The huge difference, is the IFE system, with significantly bigger PTVs, and touchscreens. They feature video on demand, games, music, and the ability to call a fellow passenger of someone on land (for a cost) from the touch screen. Although this product is nothing like compared to leading airlines such as SQ, CX, EK etc. it is a remarkable improvement.
ECE and ECF 772s are mainly used to serve TLV-LAX, which is a 15 hour flight, and the video on demand, and mains power can make this flight (one of the longest around) bearable,

I quote from the EL AL website: 'For the convenience of Economy Class passengers on 777 and 747 aircraft, outlets for charging personal computers have been installed.
* Except on 747 ELD, on which installation will be completed by end 2009.'

The only 772s fitted with this as far as I know are ECE and ECF, and the only 744 with this, is 4X-ELE (much smaller screen on 744,but at least there is videos on demand.
Does anyone know if LY's newest 744, 4X-ELH also has this newer Y product?

The website is misleading, because having been on 4X-ELD in 2011, there had been no installation of the IFE system, and I'm not sure how many of the 744s and 772s now have it.
Anyone know whether LY have made any progress at all with upgrading the entire 744 and 772 fleet with this new IFE system?


User currently offlineliftsifter From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8165 times:

Another fabulous fail on El Al's part. Hw about they upgrade the pathetic IFE on the 744's first? What are those, 2.5" screens on the 744?

And 3-4-3 Y+.. That is just... indescribably bad.



A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A342 A343 A346 A380 B738 B744 B763 B772 B77W B787 Q400 E190
User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1974 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7705 times:

strange... I wouldnt pay for that Economy plus!! It's outdated. Compare with emirates/etihads Y class, they are still the best.


The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3945 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 18 hours ago) and read 7603 times:
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They really need to try and get their act together.

Rightfully so, their LAX flights do need better IFE AVOD when the flight duration is 15+ hours.
How are the loads? Are they getting premium cabin passengers?

Isn't the catering better than the likes of BA, AF, DL, UA and etc..? Will this Y+ offer upgraded catering?


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 13 hours ago) and read 7377 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 14):
Will this Y+ offer upgraded catering?

No, same food as Y AFAIK



אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2065 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 12 hours ago) and read 7324 times:
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Quoting EL-AL (Reply 4):
From what I heard at the press conference yesterday it's mainly to upgrade frequent flyer passengers. I doubt people will pay extra without additional luggage and lounge access.
Quoting liftsifter (Reply 12):
Hw about they upgrade the pathetic IFE on the 744's first?

Yes.
I am amazed at their lack of WiFi----in this day and time----on a 744----seriously?
And yes. IFE is antiquated. Tiny screens are distorted badly sometimes.

My observations on recent trips JFK-TLV-JFK are that yes, the up-grade to Business is a good idea if you can purchase it on-board at a reduced rate-----because with poor IFE and complete lack of WiFi it sure ain't worth full-price! Then there is the overall (somewhat shabby) condition of the aircraft.
I recently flew Business on "Jerusalem" ----up in the hump. Had plenty of room (just aft of the door in 77K). Interior was pretty beaten-up. Non-lie-flat seat was not too bad and got some rest. Service was a tad better than economy.

Got stuck in Economy on "Haifa" recently. Asked for an up-grade-----and saw flight attendant write my name and seat number on a list. Never heard from her again. Later I walked forward and observed several empty seats in Business. How stupid. I would have been prepared to pay $500.00 bucks for one, but hey, they would rather get no revenue at all from them. Go figya. (They usually want $750.00 for the up-grade once on-board, but that price is not worth it at all IMO).
Service standard was considerably less than Business. Typical LY attitude of "the customer is always wrong" did not help out too much. Lack of WIFI annoying as usual and the screen on my tiny IFE was so optically distorted as to be useless altogether. Aircraft in shabby condition. My tray-table was broken and would barely lock in the stowed position. When pointing it out to a flight attendant she was visibly annoyed. Oh well.

Fix: take two sleeping pills and wake up close to arrival!
Book DL in the future and make sure the travel agent does the same! I am on LY's frequent-victim---er----flyer program Matmid, but that doesn't seem to matter too much as far as service is concerned, and I don't travel often enough to get those preferred customer perks---whatever they may be---- other than free up-grades. Don't think I will ever attain them as I will prefer DL from here on out.

I seriously do not see how LY intends to compete in today's business climate without WIFI and decent IFE on all their aircraft. Re-arranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship won't help very much IMO.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently onlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3460 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 7242 times:

El Al's product still leaves a lot to be desired. Without even going into the Boeing 767-200s that grace YYZ I can easily say El Al is 10 years behind the times. 7 inch PTVs (if you're lucky enough to get on a 777 or 747) with 12 channels of old pre-recorded videos is not acceptable for an ULH carrier in 2012. Unfortunately, El Al doesn't cater to passengers who want comfort or quality but rather those who insist on supporting an Israel in any way possible. They are not charging such bottom rate fares that they cannot be pulling in money or at least providing quality service. I'd gladly fly AC to TLV even if it's $200 more because IFE and comfort is very important to me on a 12 hour flight. El Al's product reminds me of Canadian Airlines/AC back in the late 90s. They have the same quality of product as other state airlines like Olympic had (and now look were they are).


Support the beer and soda can industry, recycle old airplanes!
User currently offlineMike909 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6966 times:

Launching this new product and labelling it 'a new Y class' seems like a big marketing scam to me.

None of LYs 744s are over 18 years old yet, oldest one being built in 1994 - meaning they do have life left in them yet, and do need a major refitting.
Having said that, I do think that in the next 5 years or so, LY will need to place an order for either 77Ws or 747-8is to possible replace them.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 17):

The 744 and 767 product is awful. Flew from BKK-TLV on an LY 763 - 10 hours of hell!
But on LYs two newer 772s, ECE and ECF, the Y product is remarkebly better, and does beat the Y product on BA (except on BAs 77Ws and refitted 772s).
If LY could stop delaying everything they do and refit their entire 777 fleet with this product, and perhaps begin applying this to the 744s then they could be more competitive.
LY have been saying that they have been planning to do these refits for years, but nothing has been done.


User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1243 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6920 times:

I see it's getting interesting, so I'll share some pics from the press conference with you guys. The Y+ difference from regular Y is:

* 36" seat pitch instead of 32"
* 33% addition to the seat recline
* check in at separate airport counters
* private entertainment system
* laptop power unit
* amenity kit
* pillow and blanket as given in business class

-> notice what is missing: no extra luggage, no lounge access and no upgraded meals.

The new class with have 34-40 seats. It will be installed first on the 744s, till 2013 on the 772 fleet and till 2014 on the 767 fleet.

Upgraded from Y will be given free to gold and platinum frequent flyer passengers and for passengers who paid full Y class ticket (Y, S & M tickets). Tickets will be sold at $80 per direction to Europe and $150 per direction to north america.

The new Y+ class was introduced to us on board 4X-ELH, B747-400 built in 1994, added to LY fleet in 2011, with high capacity of 455 passengers, uses mainly on the TLV-BKK-TLV route:

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/4965/img0697fc.jpg

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2880/img0698eb.jpg

And this is the new class seat:


legroom:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/243/img0701ss.jpg

seat recline:
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8259/img0734ur.jpg

El Al's CEO presenting the new class:
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3665/img0724vc.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/300/img0727to.jpg

We were given breakfast - which is as you can see a regular Y breakfast:
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4336/img0722ib.jpg

For comparison - this is the legroom in regular Y seat:


Economy class on board ELH:
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/113/img0712kx.jpg

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9660/img0714df.jpg

Business class (on the upper deck, no first on board ELH):
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4518/img0718ls.jpg

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2929/img0719m.jpg

Seating in the Y+ seat, it doesn't feel like luxury at all. The extra leg room is nice, but the seat is narrow and feel cramped like regular Y seat. I think that it's mainly to give cheap upgrades to frequent flyers, as I do not believe anyone will pay extra $300 without extra luggage allowance and without lounge access.



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2065 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6863 times:
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Quoting EL-AL (Reply 19):
pay extra $300 without extra luggage

I completely agree.

It's almost as though this effort is some sort of "appeasement" to avoid the cost outlay of doing what they should be doing in the first place-----------getting their IFE and Internet capability up to standard.

I am also unimpressed with the port to plug-in my lap-top----------- that I still would not have WiFi access to.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineoriginalblis From Israel, joined Jan 2010, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6811 times:

Having flown in DL Y+, I don't see how this is any different (besides the price...DL was $80 JFK-TLV). That seat was a standard Y seat with a little more leg room, no special catering, no extra luggage. If you're flying JFK-TLV, your only option is outdated service (which is why I connect through Europe).

Imperial...what airlines are you flying where WiFi is a standard product on long haul flights?



originalblis
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24326 posts, RR: 47
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6741 times:

Looks OK to me.

Not much different than United or Delta, probably the biggest competitors El Al faces in its long-haul network.

A Y+ product does not need a new fancy seat, or other grand product enhancements. Simply provide what is the #1 wish of Y class pax - more leg room, which does - some 4 inches.

Also remember this product is FREE to its elite frequent flyer group, and those that pay the higher Y class booking classes. A nice little added benefit.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 14):
How are the loads? Are they getting premium cabin passengers?

Excellent loads at LAX. 2011 averaged 87.4%.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 16):
Got stuck in Economy on "Haifa" recently. Asked for an up-grade-----and saw flight attendant write my name and seat number on a list. Never heard from her again. Later I walked forward and observed several empty seats in Business.

Unless they have catered meals to go along with the empty seats, they wont upgrade.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMike909 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6626 times:

EL-AL, does ELH have the same IFE system as ELE?
I noted ELE has touch screen PTVs with videos on demand, although still tiny PTVs.
At least the VOD is a tiny improvement from the other 744s. Does ELH also have this?


User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1243 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6484 times:

Quoting Mike909 (Reply 23):
EL-AL, does ELH have the same IFE system as ELE?

Yes.



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
25 SmokinL1011 : I'd pay the extra at least one-way just to get to sit in the nose section of a 744... preferably the first row.
26 FlyboyOz : Wow those Y seat design look exactly the same as 10 years old seat design. I know I have seen those seats on Singapore Airlines, Ansett Australia and
27 JAAlbert : Me too!
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