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City Of Houston Agrees With WN International Plans  
User currently offlineskycub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17197 times:

Houston Mayor Annise Parker is planning to announce Wednesday morning that the city and Southwest Airlines have come to an agreement on how to finance a $100 million expansion of Hobby Airport to accommodate international flights, according to a City Hall source.

http://blog.chron.com/houstonpolitic...outhwest-to-be-announced-tomorrow/

129 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17088 times:

Well let's see if UA follows through with the (idle?) threats ...

User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16996 times:

Good news! Maybe w will get a little relief from ua airfares.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16996 times:

As someone in the comments posted, why is this being paid for by the pax. Wasn't WN going to pay for the terminal itself? Why should other airline passengers pay a user fee just to benefit WN? If I were AA, B6, F9 or DL, I would file an injunction.


The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16896 times:

Smisek was on the news today predicting all kinds of gloom and doom for the UA IAH hub if Southwest gets to fly internationally from HOU.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=8672834

OK, let Smisek downsize their IAH presence by 10%. There will be other airlines stepping in to fill those voids. I assure you.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26013 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16803 times:

     

Great to see Houston not allowing itself to be taken hostage by United.

Competition is a beautiful thing.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 3):
As someone in the comments posted, why is this being paid for by the pax. Wasn't WN going to pay for the terminal itself? Why should other airline passengers pay a user fee just to benefit WN? If I were AA, B6, F9 or DL, I would file an injunction.

Designation of PFC funds is not at the discretion of the airlines, but of the authority collecting them.

There is nothing to contest, as invariably not all facilities would be used by all passengers or airlines anyhow.

Based on your argument, I guess airports like SFO, DTW and now LAX should not be getting new Intl facilities, nor should airports all around America invest any monies in any projects whatsoever.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11819 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16779 times:

Well it appears Southwest's exceptional P.R. machine has succeeded once again.

I'm personally not necessarily opposed to Southwest flying international from Hobby, but I do think - after reading through Southwest's literature and reading the United/Swelbar rebuttal report, that a lot of Southwest's predictions and assumptions really are a bit ridiculous.

Nonetheless, I think it's only logical, whether one supports or opposes Southwest's plans, to expect that this will have some negative impact on United at Bush, which I agree - with United/Swelbar - is most likely to benefit AA at D/FW and to a lesser extent Delta in Atlanta.

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 1):
Well let's see if UA follows through with the (idle?) threats ...

Well of course it won't be doom and gloom as United is painting it - just as it wasn't when AA was spelling doom and gloom for D/FW back in 2005 when the Wright Amendment debate kicked up.

But, personally, I will be less interested to see if United follows through on reducing capacity at Bush 10% than I will be to see if fares in competing markets really drop by the enormous percentages that Southwest predicts they will in their studies and arguments supporting this move.


User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4029 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 16581 times:
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City Council still needs to approve. Mayor Porker can say what she wants. Still wait and see. I read somewhere else, WN flight attendants turned down the international piece of their contract??


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently onlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1047 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 16426 times:

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 7):
I read somewhere else, WN flight attendants turned down the international piece of their contract??

So they go back to the negotiation table. Duh.



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlineskycub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 16220 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 8):

So they go back to the negotiation table. Duh.

LOL! Sorry.... that was one of the best posts I have seen on here in a while. Thanks for the laugh, usflyguy!


User currently offlineBlueDanube From United States of America, joined May 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 16189 times:

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 1):

Not sure they are idle threats. IAH-Auckland, New Zealand looks less promising at this point.


User currently offlinewdleiser From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 962 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 16093 times:

Quoting BlueDanube (Reply 10):

and that would only hurt UA. That is one flight. Now lets see if UA gets rid of IAH-GIG, IAH-MEX etc etc. UA needs IAH as it is a cash cow for them. If they leave IAH, another airline will fill the void and cash in on the high airfares too and from IAH. Why on earth would you leave an airport with the highest fares in the United States? On another note, UA is making this sound like WN is going to start flying longhaul to Europe and Asia from HOU stealing all of their premium passengers.


User currently offlinetsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15739 times:

Quoting BlueDanube (Reply 10):
Not sure they are idle threats. IAH-Auckland, New Zealand looks less promising at this point.

why should a couple of 737's to Mexico resorts and the Carribean have any effect on traffic to NZ? The only reason UA would pull AKL is because they can, and it would have little effect to their network by moving it to say SFO. Otherwise they would simply be spiteful towards Houston by shooting themselves in the foot just to prove a point. I doubt WN's flights from HOU will have a huge impact on UA at IAH at all...


User currently offlineBlueDanube From United States of America, joined May 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15697 times:

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 12):

I agree that it seems irrational to pull IAHACK simply because WN launching a flights to Mexico, Latin America, and the Caribbean. But UA may make the point that they aren't getting the support from the City of Houston that they thought that they had and that they no longer think that they can make new markets like this work.

So yes, spite could play a role in this.


User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15629 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 3):
Why should other airline passengers pay a user fee just to benefit WN?

They will be CUTE gates, so incumbent carriers may use the facilities as well i.e. Interjet, Volaris, and any charter operations.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 4):
Smisek was on the news today predicting all kinds of gloom and doom for the UA IAH hub if Southwest gets to fly internationally from HOU.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=8672834

OK, let Smisek downsize their IAH presence by 10%. There will be other airlines stepping in to fill those voids. I assure you.

Judging by the downturn in service and the 6.7% decrease in passengers - United is downsizing their own presence. United will be foolish to decrease Houston service - as you've pointed out other airlines will fill the void. How do you think Emirates, Qatar, BA, KL, SQ, etc. have been able to entrench themselves at IAH...CO did not have the aircraft to open lucrative routes and compete most effectively. They wisely chose to allocate the resources to build up NYC first.

Quoting commavia (Reply 6):
to expect that this will have some negative impact on United at Bush, which I agree - with United/Swelbar - is most likely to benefit AA at D/FW and to a lesser extent Delta in Atlanta.

This would be foolish and only hurt United.

Quoting BlueDanube (Reply 10):
Not sure they are idle threats. IAH-Auckland, New Zealand looks less promising at this point.

The viability and liklihood of this flight was always in question. If UA fails to start it, they were looking for an excuse to move it to another hub anyway.

Quoting wdleiser (Reply 11):
. Now lets see if UA gets rid of IAH-GIG, IAH-MEX etc etc. UA needs IAH as it is a cash cow for them. If they leave IAH, another airline will fill the void and cash in on the high airfares too and from IAH. Why on earth would you leave an airport with the highest fares in the United States?

Absolutely. Just a bunch of pouting and throwing a fit.

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 12):
I doubt WN's flights from HOU will have a huge impact on UA at IAH at all...

They will not, in fact in the long term I expect UA to grow.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlinecongaboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 352 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15579 times:

Cmon folks...we all know this is all spun out of proportion by all parties. The prime benefactor is the City of Houston, and of course they will work with WN. One only needs to look at a similar, but not identical, model at Chicago, the third largest city in the USA. For years the Southwest build up at MDW has co-existed with UA and AA over at ORD. Now we see developments along the same lines (but with an international flair) in the nation's fourth largest city. The PR machines from camp Smisek and Kelly are, in my mind, predictable. UA is not going to draw down 10%, and WN will settle with their labor groups. And they will have a dog-fight fare war for some months, settle in, and co-exist, and continue to re-invest.


"Joey, you like movies about gladiators?"
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15555 times:

Quoting congaboy (Reply 15):
UA is not going to draw down 10%, and WN will settle with their labor groups. And they will have a dog-fight fare war for some months, settle in, and co-exist, and continue to re-invest.

Yep.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15524 times:

Quoting BlueDanube (Reply 10):

Not sure they are idle threats. IAH-Auckland, New Zealand looks less promising at this point.

Why, because WN are planning it with a 737 with 4 refuelling stops on route?  

For reasons stated above UA will be shooting themselves in the foot if they just throw in the towel to WN. IAH is a massive hub, massive loyalty etc. Sure UA might take a hit on some flights, they need to adjust and stay focused, not throw their toys out the pram and fight on. No point in Smisek moaning, nobody seems to be listening.....not in Texas anyway.


User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 14593 times:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 17):
No point in Smisek moaning, nobody seems to be listening.....not in Texas anyway.

That's right - there are alot of emotional strings being pulled...right or wrong logical or not alot of folks down here are still pissed about the move to Chicago...even if "the largest hub" is still IAH. I've started flying other carriers because the service is going down the drain and the fares are sky high on UA here in Houston.

Also, according to the press conference - WN will cover all cost associated with building the facility and then turn it over to the City of Houston, WN gets preferential use out of 4 gates and the fifth gate can be used by whomever at will.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently onlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 14330 times:

drerx I agree. Houston fares are very high. IIRC reading here on A.net some reports had them at the highest in the nation.
Smisek is correct in that UA can provide Houston massive connections due to the feed of the hub (3rd most in the USA I think) and that is certainly a benefit but I don't full buy into their argument on losing the connecting passenger they site in the interview.

If Southwest were flying int'l from IAH UA would still lose the two pax. And it could be debated that say if WN used int'l gates at SAT, for example, those same pax flying OKC-CUN would now fly Southwest if it were cheaper; UA still loses the pax.

as an aside, I'd also be happy if Houston Metro got rail lines out to both airports faster or at least faster buses to connect them.
You can bus it between both airports for 2.25$ via #73 to #102 but it can take about 2 hours (at least).



“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2229 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 14203 times:

Smisek is already not wildly popular these days in the aftermaths of what has already been a semi-disastrous merger. Obviously, now that it is irreversible, UA should focus more on retaining loyalty rather than leveraging this stupid power struggle against WN in Houston. I'm personally not convinced judging by the way he spun his answers in that interview. Eliminating 1,300 jobs and 10% capacity? That is indeed a threat, not a compulsion. Way to alienate more people.

United has some clear advantages over Southwest within the context of their Latin American network. Those advantages will be fairly preserved, IMO, if WN were to launch international flights from HOU.

And, like others have pointed out, if UA is stupid enough to start to detonate their own hub in IAH by a 737-only airline, well good luck to them, because another competitor WILL indeed come in and fill the void, and make them look even more ridiculous.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently onlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1047 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 14133 times:

http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2012...or-international-flights-at-hobby/

So, WN is paying for 100% of the cost of building the terminal and then turning over ownership to the city (getting a debt-free facility); in exchange, WN get exclusive use of 4 of the gates and the 5th gate is a common use gate. The facility will not be financed by passenger usage fees.



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13898 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 21):
http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2012...or-international-flights-at-hobby/

So, WN is paying for 100% of the cost of building the terminal and then turning over ownership to the city (getting a debt-free facility); in exchange, WN get exclusive use of 4 of the gates and the 5th gate is a common use gate. The facility will not be financed by passenger usage fees.

At $100 million cost, how many pax WN needs to fly from HOU to Mexico/Carib to even break even this investment ?


User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 342 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13705 times:

Interesting that in 2011, HOU had its highest passenger count (9.8 million) covering a period back to 1989.

http://www.fly2houston.com/about-traffic-updates

IAH is down about 2.8 million pax from its high of almost 43 million in 2007.

David


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13676 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 22):
At $100 million cost, how many pax WN needs to fly from HOU to Mexico/Carib to even break even this investment ?

I'd believe WN knows that the future 4 WN assigned international gates @ HOU could be used as domestic by them when needed, so for them it'll be also an investment in added gate capacity @ HOU.
Now, if WN is making the investment of USD100 million, would that mean that it's WN who would have the right to give the grant and make $$ out of the concessions at the new facility?



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 14088 times:

For Houston how can you say no?
Having much lower last minute international fares will be great for business, visitors, and locals. Southwest would just operate the international flights from another gateway city if houston said no and many would take them up on the offer in a second for interntational flights. United is just mad its all talke they are not going to leave or shrink Houston in any way because of this. They might make less money as fares to some markets may drop significantly last minute especially but its not like The united Houston operation is really in any risk from the cities perspective. If united shrank in houston as others said they would be inviting other carriers to move in so they are just angry that southwest is moving in on their hub space. southwest operating some international flights is a problem? At denver they have three or four competitors on almost every major route and in houston they will have one competator in the N/S field on some.....it doesnt seem that bad to me


User currently offlineBC77008 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 14100 times:

So glad that this happened. United (Smisek) needs to be brought down a peg or two. The love Houston had for Continental is no more.


"He waited his whole damn life to take that flight. And as the plane crashed down he thought 'Well isn't this nice...'"
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6806 posts, RR: 32
Reply 27, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13810 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 4):
Smisek was on the news today predicting all kinds of gloom and doom for the UA IAH hub if Southwest gets to fly internationally from HOU.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...72834

I'm amazed he could even make some of his statements with a straight face; he sounds like the Iraqi Information Minister:

Quote:
Only good things have happened to Houston since we merged. We've grown this hub. We have 17,000 people here.

Sure, moving thousands of jobs from Houston to Chicago counts in those "only good things," right?

Quote:
I am not threatening anything. This is what will be forced to happen. This isn't a threat.

If you don't hand over what's in the cash register, I will be "forced" to shoot you. But it's not a threat.

Quoting commavia (Reply 6):
I think it's only logical, whether one supports or opposes Southwest's plans, to expect that this will have some negative impact on United at Bush, which I agree - with United/Swelbar - is most likely to benefit AA at D/FW and to a lesser extent Delta in Atlanta.

I'd argue that it probably impacts all players accessing similar traffic flows, since a hypothetical OKC-HOU-CUN passenger on WN might have flown OKC-DFW-CUN or OKC-IAH-CUN. I expect there's somewhat less impact on ATL since the non-stop markets on WN to HOU don't have a lot of overlap with connections which would be logical over ATL -- but it's also reasonable to expect that WN will run some international service from ATL as well. If UA were to reduce service at IAH, the largest beneficiary might even be WN with their large operations at HOU & DAL; if UA cuts a LIT-IAH flight, for example, those passengers might just end up flying LIT-DAL or LIT-HOU.

Quoting BlueDanube (Reply 13):
But UA may make the point that they aren't getting the support from the City of Houston that they thought that they had and that they no longer think that they can make new markets like this work.

So yes, spite could play a role in this.

Absolutely. One could argue that moving the company HQ to Chicago essentially imploded every single ounce of goodwill which had been built up over three decades of the company's presence in Houston. If the HQ were still on Smith Street, I think WN would have been politely told that the City wasn't prepared to move forward with international facilities at HOU at this time. But instead, Houston is seeing higher fares for a lower-quality product up at the big airport -- and there isn't even the salve of "supporting the hometown business."


User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13429 posts, RR: 100
Reply 28, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 13760 times:
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Quoting drerx7 (Reply 14):
They will be CUTE gates, so incumbent carriers may use the facilities as well i.e. Interjet, Volaris, and any charter operations.

Important to remember that WN is enabling their own competition. However, 4 gates to 1 isn't likely to produce a viable competitor who doesn't have a strong base at the receiving end. (e.g., Westjet or a Mexican airline).

The chance of competition comes down to cost vs. IAH.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 25):
For Houston how can you say no?

I see no downside for the city and in particular business in the city as well as future tax revenue.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 24):
Now, if WN is making the investment of USD100 million, would that mean that it's WN who would have the right to give the grant and make $$ out of the concessions at the new facility?

I would assume it would come out of WN's guarantee for the loan. WN won't pay USD 100 million of their own money. There will be a mortgage (or some other type of loan) secured by the proceeds that WN must guarantee. I'm certain there is some sort of concession revenue that goes to pay off the loan, but that the surplus goes to the city (or other parts of the airport system).

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 25):
If united shrank in houston as others said they would be inviting other carriers to move in so they are just angry that southwest is moving in on their hub space. southwest operating some international flights is a problem?

From a UA yield perspective it will be a problem.  

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinebobbypsp From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11682 times:

This is good news... While I have a strong afinity for UA as a former employee, this was the right decision. It's the American way after all. Capitalism at its best

User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 884 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11610 times:
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type-rated (reply 4) said "Smisek was on the news today predicting all kinds of gloom and doom for the UA IAH hub if Southwest gets to fly internationally from HOU."

Where is there doom and gloom in Chicago with 2 international airports?

JayLo is just blowing a lot of smoke. It's amazing how he took a great company in the eyes of the traveling public, Continental and totally screwed things up.


User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 31, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 11395 times:

That's what I wondered? Why is this different than ORD/MDW?
The matter is that UA will have to lower fares to match WN on these competing routes, and Smisek doesn't like it.


User currently offlinebillreid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 1021 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 11254 times:

Southwest is nothing but a group of FOOLS.
Houston has an International Airport. If WN wants to compete at a major league level it needs to grow up.
It LIED to the government about the FL acquisition. Wheres the GROWTH? LOL LOL LOL

Their management are building a plan for disaster!!!
If it wants to fly international, then do it where CBP is and facilities are.
This Nation is in a massive recession so why build a facility where there is one that is NOT at 100% use.

It is simple ....... The WN product can not compete head on.
As a result the city of Houston will lose here.

This will end up in court and cost millions.
It will not be based upon facilities. Instead it will be based upon CBP staffing.
CBP does not have the staff to support HOU for the next ten years and 45 other airports this year have been denied staffing by CBP. Stats show that CBP processing time is up 18% accross the nation in 2012.
As Houston already has a CBP facility how does Washington justify this?
After the merger documents were filed stating NO FL/WN closures they are left with no Senators or Congressman backing them outside of TX. And CBP is staffed from Washington not TX. Burnt those bridges. Nothing left for WN to use, no friends in Washington...



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 33, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 11118 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 32):
It is simple ....... The WN product can not compete head on.
As a result the city of Houston will lose here.

How do you come up with this ill-logic?

Quoting billreid (Reply 32):
As Houston already has a CBP facility how does Washington justify this?

And why can't they utilize some of the staff this is already at HOU to serve private ops? Once the facility is complete some staffing can come from there. Your arguments show that you may not fully understand the ramifications of the situation...the City of Houston very well could have ended up in court had they NOT let WN do this.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 884 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 11105 times:
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Houston HOU already has a CBP facility used for private planes and can support air carrier international flights at Hobby and we are not talking about many flights and we are talking about opening in 2015 at the earliest not this year or next year. Who knows where our economy will be in 2015? Who knows what CBP staffing levels will be in 2015?

This will no end up in court. The WN product Can compete head on and Houston is a large spread out city and there is room for international flights from Hobby and Intercontinental just like O'Hare and Midway in Chicago. If they didn't fly from Hobby WN would do the same from Austin.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7469 posts, RR: 8
Reply 35, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10912 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 32):
As Houston already has a CBP facility how does Washington justify this?

Expansion, job creation, new hires etc etc. The forcast is for air travel to grow, so why can it not grown in Houston?
WN is looking to offer new service why can UA not do the same, why do we have to take the line that one person is looking to take business away from another?


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4611 posts, RR: 23
Reply 36, posted (2 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 10401 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 32):
Southwest is nothing but a group of FOOLS.

Mmhmm. 39 years of consecutive annual profits, yup fools I tell ya.

Quoting billreid (Reply 32):
Houston has an International Airport. If WN wants to compete at a major league level it needs to grow up.

Already addressed by others...and WN doesn't compete at a major level? They are #1 in the US Domestic market when it comes to pax carried.

Quoting billreid (Reply 32):
It LIED to the government about the FL acquisition. Wheres the GROWTH? LOL LOL LOL

I've seen several new international routes open up (using FL). I would also imagine once the FL network is fully integrated that we will see a net increase in total pax carried than what WN/FL did pre-acquisition. Yes smaller, under performing cities, or cities that just won't work in the WN setup have been closed. Why don't you ask PIT, STL, and CVG how well their hubs made out after those mergers.

Quoting billreid (Reply 32):
It is simple ....... The WN product can not compete head on.
As a result the city of Houston will lose here.

So WN should just close up Hobby and move everything over? Do you know the financials behind such a move? Since you are claiming this is a disaster, you must have run the numbers yourself. Surely can't insist that WN operate int'l from IAH without moving the rest of the network over. Which gates did you have picked for them to move in to? WN operates in nearly every major US cities - so how are they not able to compete? Also how does Houston win if HOU is 80% empty after WN is moved over to IAH?

Quoting billreid (Reply 32):
After the merger documents were filed stating NO FL/WN closures they are left with no Senators or Congressman backing them outside of TX.

Really? You have proof of this? I'm pretty sure WN never promised that no city would be closed - EVER. So they should just remain in a money losing market? That's not very smart and would definitely be FOOLISH for airline management to do. Then again...it is apparently ran by a bunch of fools according to you.


User currently offlineiahworldflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 254 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10131 times:

This is the right move for the city of Houston to make. For all the reasons stated above, the competitiion will be good in that it will bring some airfares down. No you will not be able to buy a $200 r/t ticket to Cancun. But maybe a $400 ticket? Yes, that's possible. As others have said as well, Houston is a very spread out metropolitan area, and the two airports are about 30 miles and a good 45 minutes apart ( over an hour apart in heavy traffic). I wonder if UA is kicking themselves for stopping the EFD feeder flights several years back. Though as a stand-alone those flights didn't make money, they did serve to open up that whole Bay Area/Pearland/Galveston market for convienient flights out of IAH.

User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (2 years 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10135 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
Important to remember that WN is enabling their own competition. However, 4 gates to 1 isn't likely to produce a viable competitor who doesn't have a strong base at the receiving end. (e.g., Westjet or a Mexican airline).

If CM feels they can grab a piece of Houston O/D market with more attractive HOU fares than UA @ IAH, CM could think of flying to HOU. CM is doing something similar to UA already in the NYC market.
And CM has an strong base at the receiving end.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 39, posted (2 years 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 10147 times:

Quoting iahworldflyer (Reply 37):
I wonder if UA is kicking themselves for stopping the EFD feeder flights several years back. Though as a stand-alone those flights didn't make money, they did serve to open up that whole Bay Area/Pearland/Galveston market for convienient flights out of IAH.

Do you see UA going SNA-LAX or ISP-EWR ? UA could come out way cheaper offering free connecting bus service.


User currently onlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1047 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (2 years 6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10040 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 39):
ISP-EWR

I could see them doing that one.



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlinepanpan From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (2 years 6 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10236 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 32):
Southwest is nothing but a group of FOOLS.
Houston has an International Airport. If WN wants to compete at a major league level it needs to grow up.
It LIED to the government about the FL acquisition. Wheres the GROWTH? LOL LOL LOL

Their management are building a plan for disaster!!!
If it wants to fly international, then do it where CBP is and facilities are.
This Nation is in a massive recession so why build a facility where there is one that is NOT at 100% use.

It is simple ....... The WN product can not compete head on.
As a result the city of Houston will lose here.

This will end up in court and cost millions.
It will not be based upon facilities. Instead it will be based upon CBP staffing.
CBP does not have the staff to support HOU for the next ten years and 45 other airports this year have been denied staffing by CBP. Stats show that CBP processing time is up 18% accross the nation in 2012.
As Houston already has a CBP facility how does Washington justify this?
After the merger documents were filed stating NO FL/WN closures they are left with no Senators or Congressman backing them outside of TX. And CBP is staffed from Washington not TX. Burnt those bridges. Nothing left for WN to use, no friends in Washington..

Is there any part of this that is supported by factual evidence at all? In a realted topic-- what you smokin'????


User currently onlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1047 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (2 years 6 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10017 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 32):
Southwest is nothing but a group of FOOLS.
Houston has an International Airport. If WN wants to compete at a major league level it needs to grow up.
It LIED to the government about the FL acquisition. Wheres the GROWTH? LOL LOL LOL

Their management are building a plan for disaster!!!
If it wants to fly international, then do it where CBP is and facilities are.
This Nation is in a massive recession so why build a facility where there is one that is NOT at 100% use.

It is simple ....... The WN product can not compete head on.
As a result the city of Houston will lose here.

This will end up in court and cost millions.
It will not be based upon facilities. Instead it will be based upon CBP staffing.
CBP does not have the staff to support HOU for the next ten years and 45 other airports this year have been denied staffing by CBP. Stats show that CBP processing time is up 18% accross the nation in 2012.
As Houston already has a CBP facility how does Washington justify this?
After the merger documents were filed stating NO FL/WN closures they are left with no Senators or Congressman backing them outside of TX. And CBP is staffed from Washington not TX. Burnt those bridges. Nothing left for WN to use, no friends in Washington...

Are you Smisek or Tilton? With that much anger/bitterness about this, you must be one of the two...



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 43, posted (2 years 6 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9798 times:

Quoting iahworldflyer (Reply 37):
I wonder if UA is kicking themselves for stopping the EFD feeder flights several years back.

Well, they pulled out because in the post 9/11 world and fuel prices it was no longer feasible, especially since the Houston Airport System would have required them to upgrade the facility they used at EFD for new security requirements. I flew them quite often on the route.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlinebillreid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 1021 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (2 years 6 months 12 hours ago) and read 9633 times:

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 33):
And why can't they utilize some of the staff this is already at HOU to serve private ops? Once the facility is complete some staffing can come from there. Your arguments show that you may not fully understand the ramifications of the situation...the City of Houston very well could have ended up in court had they NOT let WN do this.

The legal interpretation on the movement of CBP agents says that the only way this can happen is through new agents being hired. Unless HOU is a designated Port of Entry that means that the city of Houston MUST pay for those agents at 230,000 per agent and for the schedule that is proposed HOU will have to pay for an additional 75-100 agents. This is what CBP is telling ALL airports in the USA.
An application will need to be filed with CBP before te flight activity is approved.

the real question here is whether the tax payer is willing to pay $25,000,000 for staffing per year while IAH is free?



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26013 posts, RR: 50
Reply 45, posted (2 years 6 months 12 hours ago) and read 9599 times:

It will happen as its happened in the Los Angeles port district.

New FIS facility opens (ONT in the past, and SNA now in 2012), and bodies get shuffled around. Depending on flight schedules agents get sent to work at the new facilities either part-time a few hours here or there to meet specific flights, or of activity warrants full time postings are created.

Yes there is a general lack of authorized CBP staffing in the nation, and yes there is push back however at the end of the day coverage is provided especially when friendly local senators and congressman write a letter or two.

Houston like Los Angeles is actually one of the larger CBP districts in the nation due to the huge shipping port, so its more a matter of prioritizing work than having to create a huge number of new positions.

Oh an for the payment - remember each inbound passenger pays $28.70 in fees currently that is meant to directly cover such international arrival services at the US port.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTX2FL From United States of America, joined May 2010, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (2 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 9456 times:

I wonder what this will mean for Job creation for HOU/Southwest? If jobs will be given internally or externals hired, as there will be plenty airline employees with international experience floating around out there, especially if AA/US merge, there are bound to be layoffs of qualified people.

User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 47, posted (2 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 9447 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 44):
Unless HOU is a designated Port of Entry that means that the city of Houston MUST pay for those agents at 230,000 per agent and for the schedule that is proposed HOU will have to pay for an additional 75-100 agents.

It is a designated Port of Entry.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlinegizmonc From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (2 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 9469 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 32):
: I personally dont think WN is run by a bunch of FOOLS.


Bud you can bet that WN has a plan it is just not exposed at this time. Gary Kelley is a bean counter and carefully plans what his next step is. WN is having growing pains in this economy but still ahead of the game. I still say the reason he purchased FL was for the ATL gates. He may take a while to do more in ATL but I do believe it is coming. WN has a small footprint at LGA and when those slots came open WN put in a bid but GK stated that B6 paid entirely to much for what they got. Slowly he will figure a way to get more flights out of LGA and probably the next move will be JFK. WN took a while to move from being the TEXAS carrier to states beyond. The Wright Amendment has been modified but in Mar 2014 aside from International flights , the BARN DOOR will open. You will see WN incease all kinds of flights out of DAL to major cities. True they might be behind the 8 ball due a reservations system but a deal has been made for that. The workers at WN continue to keep WN in some of the highest ratings among other carriers, especially Customer Service.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16892 posts, RR: 51
Reply 49, posted (2 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 9445 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 39):
Do you see UA going SNA-LAX or ISP-EWR ?

Up until about 12 years ago COEX flew EWR-ISP and EWR-ACY, both 5x daily ATR-42.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineiahworldflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 254 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (2 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 9385 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 49):
Up until about 12 years ago COEX flew EWR-ISP and EWR-ACY, both 5x daily ATR-42.
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 39):
Do you see UA going SNA-LAX or ISP-EWR ? UA could come out way cheaper offering free connecting bus service.

My point was that CO, and now UA, has ceded the entire south end of the metro Houston market to WN for short domestic trips. The only reason people on the southern end of the metro area fly UA out of IAH is because of loyalty programs, corporate travel, or UA going someplace nonstop that WN doesn't (like for instance Latin America). It's not because UA has a cheaper fare. You can argue that WN doesn't serve IAH, so they don't compete on the northside, but WN has a reputation with many infrequent flyers that their fares are always cheaper, so there are people in The Woodlands that will book their family vacation to Disney based on that assumption.
No, UA doesn't fly a shuttle from SNA to LAX. But, UA serves both airports. Until recently, they also served OAK in addition to SFO. They also serve JFK and LGA in addition to EWR. They serve FLL and MIA. In Houston, they refuse to serve HOU. I agree it would be duplicative, but when you want market share, and you want to keep competitors out of your flyer base, you sometimes do things that don't on the face of it make financial sense. And remember that Smisek's background comes from the finance side of the equation, not the marketing side.


User currently offlinehohd From United States of America, joined May 2008, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (2 years 6 months 7 hours ago) and read 9226 times:

IAH-AKL flight was already questionable route when it was proposed, so cutting it is not a big deal. There is very little market for NZ from Houston area and most of the connecting passengers go via the West Coast.

As far as other cities, yes there will be a marginal decrease in connecting and a few business O&D passengers to Mexico/C. America as they may opt to take Southwest. UA's prices are very pricey now to south of the border, this move will bring down the prices from 2014. For the next 2 years, no one will notice any change in price.


User currently offlinegizmonc From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (2 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 9036 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 44):
CBP

what are you smoking , the starting salary for a Customs Agent is about $35.000 there is NO way that the city of HOUSTOn will have to pay 230,000 per agent.

Rember google can be your friend...

Here is INFO on salary range for Agents...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Customs_and_Border_Protection

Now refer to the above page and then calculate the salary via this site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Customs_and_Border_Protection

Depending on the flights WN may have into HOU. There is no way they will need 75-100 agents.


User currently onlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (2 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 8984 times:

As others have noted,, Houston Hobby is already a port of entry airport with CBP. Granted they process biz jets mostly (a large amount though, just check out the regs at the FBOs there any day of the week).

Also as noted the Houston area is one of the larger customs areas, with the largest foreign port based on tonnage in the US. Plus the agents that work the cruise terminal in Galveston. Those agents have been shifted around before and can be again until more agents are trained or transfered.

Yes the Houston area would use more agents with full service staffing at HOU but I'd hazard a guess Southwest won't need more than 1000-1200 pax an hour at the peak time, so 100new agent estimate seems "a bit much'.

If WN brought that much traffic into IAH, they would still need new agents so I don't get the argument that putting them at HOU is such a larger burden.



“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 923 posts, RR: 2
Reply 54, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8846 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting billreid (Reply 32):
Southwest is nothing but a group of FOOLS.
Houston has an International Airport. If WN wants to compete at a major league level it needs to grow up.
It LIED to the government about the FL acquisition. Wheres the GROWTH? LOL LOL LOL

Their management are building a plan for disaster!!!
If it wants to fly international, then do it where CBP is and facilities are.
This Nation is in a massive recession so why build a facility where there is one that is NOT at 100% use.

It is simple ....... The WN product can not compete head on.
As a result the city of Houston will lose here.




Alls I can say is WOW, did you not make probation??? WN can not compete head on??? Who carries the most domestic passengers? How is that not head on. Just because they don't want to follow your rules. WN is in BWI, LGA, LAX, ABQ, PHX, ATL, ORD, etc. etc. How much more head to head does one need. There are very few places where WN does not compete with major legacy carriers. Give me a break already, Hobby will make a great Intl. airport to Mexico, the islands, even in the future deeper into South America. JMO.


User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13429 posts, RR: 100
Reply 55, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8799 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 38):
And CM has an strong base at the receiving end.

That is a good point that CM could be another airline to utilize HOU. By no means have I listed all the possible airlines. However, they will be sharing just *one* gate while WN has the other four.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinebrandonfsu05 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 56, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8659 times:

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 53):
Yes the Houston area would use more agents with full service staffing at HOU but I'd hazard a guess Southwest won't need more than 1000-1200 pax an hour at the peak time, so 100new agent estimate seems "a bit much'.

A 100 new agent estimate is too much....however, most people think of CBP only in terms of how many agents are in primary (passport control processing). There are many many many more things that have to be done as well that people do not see. They have to have officers work the point (collecting customs forms). Narcotics officers...agriculture specialists. Officers to inspect/clear arriving aircraft. Officers to review incoming passenger data. Officers that handle deportations and refusals. Officers that handle cargo. Officers to control the door conversions at International gates. Officers to randomly check documents in primary. Plus you need supervisors for different shifts...it won't be so bad if Southwest makes all their flights come in in a relatively small window...but if they have them scattered through the day...that stretches resources.

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 52):
what are you smoking , the starting salary for a Customs Agent is about $35.000 there is NO way that the city of HOUSTOn will have to pay 230,000 per agent.

Yes, but depending on how the staffing is the officers can make a lot in overtime. Regular officers can clear 80,000-90,000 a year.

Two scenarios are possible. Houston area will receive more CBP officers for this new operation or...UA at IAH and the port will suffer as the regional office could send officers from the port or from IAH to service SW flights.

In any case...the US government is going to be subsidizing WN's operation basically...You have to duplicate all the roles and positions even if its for only 5 flights or something...if WN operated at IAH CBP could take advantage of the economies of scale. Simply add a few more officers on the primary line. It's not like we're talking about an area with no FIS or anything...IAH is there...But WN wants to use HOU because of $$$ so everyone will pander to the airline.

[Edited 2012-05-27 06:01:56]

User currently offlinegizmonc From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8584 times:

Quoting billreid (Reply 32):

CBP , Customs & Immigration arm of the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Customs_and_Border_Protection

Lots of info there about CBP, they have a total of 58,000 employees serving 351 locations if you just divide it equally that puts about 165 agents at each locations, I am sure larger locations such as JFK and LAX have more due to increased flights. With WN's typical gate useage of 9-10 flights per day. HOU would only need agents for about 36-40 flights per day.

I think you need to stay out of those coffee shops in the Netherlands.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4611 posts, RR: 23
Reply 58, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8331 times:

Quoting brandonfsu05 (Reply 56):
In any case...the US government is going to be subsidizing WN's operation basically...You have to duplicate all the roles and positions even if its for only 5 flights or something...if WN operated at IAH CBP could take advantage of the economies of scale. Simply add a few more officers on the primary line. It's not like we're talking about an area with no FIS or anything...IAH is there...But WN wants to use HOU because of $$$ so everyone will pander to the airline.

So from your statements, I would imagine you favor the elimination of duplicate services at JFK and EWR? Obviously the economies of scale would favor consolidating all int'l traffic to just one airport. Correct?


User currently offlinebrandonfsu05 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8166 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 58):
So from your statements, I would imagine you favor the elimination of duplicate services at JFK and EWR? Obviously the economies of scale would favor consolidating all int'l traffic to just one airport. Correct?

That makes no sense.
You have definitely figured my stance out.../sarcasm.....since of course having decades and decades of multiple FIS in NYC is a relevant example when talking about establishing a brand new international operation at HOU in a time of fiscal austerity.
This isn't serving the people of Houston...it's serving Southwest airlines. It's one thing if a region is devoid of any alternative...it's another if one airline just want's a cheaper alternative at the government's expense. EWR and JFK exist because of growth constraints...I wasn't aware that IAH had a problem with capacity?


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3419 posts, RR: 5
Reply 60, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8072 times:

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 2):
Good news! Maybe w will get a little relief from ua airfares

There is that notion that WN's fares are so low, they used to be, but I think WN charges what the market can bear.

Quoting commavia (Reply 6):
but I do think - after reading through Southwest's literature and reading the United/Swelbar rebuttal report, that a lot of Southwest's predictions and assumptions really are a bit ridiculous.

Sounds like a politician from Texas got to write the script, promises and predictions are just that. I'm sure the most positive light possible will be shed to portray WN intentions as feasible as possible. It's an election year, get the smoke and mirrors ready.

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 7):
City Council still needs to approve. Mayor Porker can say what she wants.

Why on earth would Houston not do this? The proposed increase in air traffic is a city's dream, with extra revenue, new jobs and happy residents and business travellers coming to and from Houston, win win for everyone, except maybe UA. If UA were in the reverse roles, UA would be doing the same thing. Keep in mind WN has been Texas since 1971, UA has not, even if you count the CO after the TI merger. I think WN should do what it needs to do to stay viable and progress.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4611 posts, RR: 23
Reply 61, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7956 times:

Quoting brandonfsu05 (Reply 59):
That makes no sense.
You have definitely figured my stance out.../sarcasm.....since of course having decades and decades of multiple FIS in NYC is a relevant example when talking about establishing a brand new international operation at HOU in a time of fiscal austerity.
This isn't serving the people of Houston...it's serving Southwest airlines. It's one thing if a region is devoid of any alternative...it's another if one airline just want's a cheaper alternative at the government's expense. EWR and JFK exist because of growth constraints...I wasn't aware that IAH had a problem with capacity?


I was pointing out the illogical reasoning in your statement. JFK wasn't busting at the seems until JetBlue cranked up. Before then it would be a ghost town except during the international push except for a handful of domestic TWA flights. You act like all the other airlines are fully paying for government's expenses to service these international ports and the flights by Southwest won't. That is just pretty narrow of a view and shows a bit of partisanship towards protecting the establishment.

Sure IAH doesn't have an issue with capacity for the most part, but what would it look like if you took the entire WN HOU operation and put it in there? Then you'd be singing a different tune. A lot of people seem to think that WN should be forced to put Int'l service at IAH with no ability to connect it to the rest of the network or ignore the significant network it has out of HOU. IAH likely would not be able to handle the massive/quick/instant influx of all of WN's flying (from HOU) in order to permit passengers to stay connected to the rest of the network.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16892 posts, RR: 51
Reply 62, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7870 times:

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 52):

what are you smoking , the starting salary for a Customs Agent is about $35.000 there is NO way that the city of HOUSTOn will have to pay 230,000 per agent.

Lots of misinformation here:

The Customs and Border Patrol start out as GL-5s, and there's a progression to GL-7, GL-9, GS-11, GS-12.

With Federal salaries it varies due to locality pay, Houston actually has a very high locality (almost as high as NYC). Here's the OPM salary table for Houston:

http://www.opm.gov/oca/12tables/html/hou.asp

GL-5 ($35, 306- $45,894) -very few are here for anything other than a probationary year, also military time and previous Government employment means very few are at this GL level

GL-7 ($43,734- $56,859)

GL-9 ($53,496- $69.539_

GS-11 ($64,724- $84,139)

GS-12 ($77,579- $100,851)

Also besides locality pay there's differentials for working nights, weekends and Holidays.

Nights (add 10% to the hourly rate)
Sundays (add 25% to the hourly rate)
Sunday nights (add 35% to the hourly rate)
Holidays (double the hourly rate)

And as mentioned there's lots of overtime due to compressed schedules, and sick and annual leave. The only way HOU doesn't hurt IAH is that the Congress funds a totally new station at HOU, all new hires. The activation process, recruiting, FLETC etc.. will mean $200,000 per officer per year in the first few years of operations sounds about right.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16892 posts, RR: 51
Reply 63, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7847 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 60):
Why on earth would Houston not do this? T

Same reason the Port Authority does not allow non pre-screened international flights into LGA, it would hurt JFK as they would just be cannibalizing the resources at JFK to support LGA. Same with IAH and HOU, in these economic times they're going to pull resources from IAH and the Port to start up HOU. Not sure how that helps commerce..

And before someone brings up JFK and EWR remember they're different States.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3419 posts, RR: 5
Reply 64, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7535 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 63):
And before someone brings up JFK and EWR remember they're different States

Different states, but a very similar catchment area, but Houston doesn't have 3 airports either. I think there is room for all, both UA & WN will be routing flights from all over the country to connect people to these International destinations, UA may loose some traction in the neighboring countries, but long haul flying from Houston will remain in tact and viable for UA.

WN is about as much Texas as you will find in the industry anymore. Best thing is for Texas and WN to play ball together, Houston needed to support this move, and it appears they are doing just that.



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User currently onlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1047 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7092 times:

Houston City Council is voting this morning...


My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6912 posts, RR: 34
Reply 66, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7014 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Competition is a beautiful thing

The competition for finite CBP resources will be awesome. Enjoy longer line waits flying back to Houston people. I hope the entire Houston City Council languishes in a line.

Quoting commavia (Reply 6):
Well it appears Southwest's exceptional P.R. machine has succeeded once again.

Yup--teflon. Always.


User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 67, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7007 times:

So the sole quasi legitimate argument against WN and international ops at HOU is that the staffing will be cannablized at IAH in 2015?   


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineModernArt From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 68, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7005 times:

Approved...

http://blog.chron.com/houstonpolitic...national-flights-planned-for-2015/

Quoting slider (Reply 52):
The competition for finite CBP resources will be awesome.

Why are CBP resources finite? Every other federal agency is overflowing with excess staffing.


User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 69, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6938 times:

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 30):
Where is there doom and gloom in Chicago with 2 international airports?

I didn't say that about Chicago. I meant why is Smisek predicting all this gloom and doom at IAH when the same situation is occurring in Chicago with ORD & MDW? That set up has been very successful, BTW. Houston should be no different.
What's Smisek going to do? Reduce SHV & MLU by one flight per day? Or drop ACT?

Smisek is a snake. In the interview he makes the point that he still lives in Houston with "his wife and dog". What about that multimillion dollar home he bought in Kennilworth, IL?


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11819 posts, RR: 62
Reply 70, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6930 times:

Quoting ModernArt (Reply 54):
Approved...

http://blog.chron.com/houstonpolitic...2015/

Hardly surprising. It seemed obvious from the outset that this was the inevitable outcome. As the article states, the Council obviously bought Southwest's argument that added competition and the "Southwest effect" would lead to lower fares. And it will probably will. Plus, Southwest's P.R. machine - right or wrong - is unquestionably the best in the industry.

The question now becomes whose predictions were right, and what impact this will ultimately have net-net. In the end, it will likely fall somewhere in the middle - given Southwest's cost structure today, as opposed to nearly 20 years ago when the original, now-oft-repeated "Southwest effect" study was published, I think it is unlikely that the predictions Southwest sold the city on in terms of fare decreases and traffic increases will materialize. Nor do I think United's dire predictions about the Intercontinental hub will materialize, either.

Shall be interesting to watch ...


User currently onlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6930 times:

Smisek, stated in various Houston venues, public, and private that he was leaving his family in Houston. This was early last year so things could certainly change (Due to certain board meetings and other events I had heard him speak on it thrice). He said he was still maintaining his old office in Houston as well.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 55):
Smisek is a snake. In the interview he makes the point that he still lives in Houston with "his wife and dog". What about that multimillion dollar home he bought in Kennilworth, IL?

I think this will be his excuse to make other moves and blame Southwest.



“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 72, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6869 times:

Now it looks like to me the best thing for UA to do is not lose passengers to WN from Houston...They have until 2015 to stop running passengers off. I would try and have sporadic fare sales in Houston to try and regain some pax loyalty prior to WN entrance into the market.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlinegizmonc From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6811 times:

I wonder who the lone city council person was that voted against the SWA International. The reported vote was 16:1. Seems like SWA got very good support from the HOU city council.

User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4029 posts, RR: 8
Reply 74, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6738 times:
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Quoting gizmonc (Reply 59):

council member who represents the IAH area.



okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26013 posts, RR: 50
Reply 75, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6658 times:

  

Good deal for Houston and its consumers. Nice to see they wont be held hostage by the threats of UA.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineB737900ER From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 76, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6713 times:

UA just announced that they will not start IAH-AKL, will trim IAH capacity by 10%, cut 1300 jobs, and will most likely not finish the second phase of the terminal B expansion (600 million dollars)

I guess they weren't bluffing

[Edited 2012-05-30 11:06:53]

User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2229 posts, RR: 15
Reply 77, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6657 times:

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 62):

UA just announced that they will not start IAH-AKL, will trim IAH capacity by 10%, cut 1300 jobs, and will most likely not finish the second phase of the terminal B expansion (600 million dollars)

Nothing official has been announced yet to the public on this, but if it indeed is true, I will be sorely irate. This is power-play of utmost unimportance right now; UA has much larger priorities to worry about rather than continue to alienate its relations with the city where its largest hub is located.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6694 posts, RR: 24
Reply 78, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6630 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 56):
In the end, it will likely fall somewhere in the middle - given Southwest's cost structure today, as opposed to nearly 20 years ago when the original, now-oft-repeated "Southwest effect" study was published, I think it is unlikely that the predictions Southwest sold the city on in terms of fare decreases and traffic increases will materialize.

WN's current cost structure is lower than UA's and likely will be for the foreseeable future, so WN is likely to stimulate some traffic. The only time the WN effect fails is when WN enters a market that is already heavily served and has low fares.

But even if WN had the same cost structure as UA, the competition between the two will push fares downward and stimulate traffic. Competition almost always pushes fares down.


User currently onlineB737900ER From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 79, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6621 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 63):

There was an announcement made to employees today detailing the cuts


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2229 posts, RR: 15
Reply 80, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6580 times:

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 65):
There was an announcement made to employees today detailing the cuts

I am aware of this, but I am more curious to see what the public reaction will be like once the information goes live.

I cannot imagine it will go over very well.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlinegizmonc From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6536 times:

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 59):

I did some research and located JERRY DAVIS..he was the lone HOUSTON city council member who voted against SWA


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7469 posts, RR: 8
Reply 82, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6494 times:

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 58):
I would try and have sporadic fare sales in Houston to try and regain some pax loyalty prior to WN entrance into the market.

Why loose revenue in hand, all they have to do is to offer fare sales when WN starts service, based on all projections, pax are only loyal to the latest fare, so having sales prior to entry only looses one money with no guarantee that loyalty will follow.


User currently offline737tanker From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 274 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6317 times:

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 62):
UA just announced that they will not start IAH-AKL, will trim IAH capacity by 10%, cut 1300 jobs, and will most likely not finish the second phase of the terminal B expansion (600 million dollars)

I guess they weren't bluffing



Since WN won't be starting international until 2015, if lucky maybe 2014, I don't see how that requires UA to do cuts today. More than likely these cuts were in the works and just announced today in an attempt to make WN into the bad guy.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2229 posts, RR: 15
Reply 84, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6255 times:

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 83):
Since WN won't be starting international until 2015, if lucky maybe 2014, I don't see how that requires UA to do cuts today. More than likely these cuts were in the works and just announced today in an attempt to make WN into the bad guy.

Please, it's no skin off of WN's a**. They're walking away from this as the clear victors without any consequences: no teardowns in schedules, no halted terminal construction, and no layoffs/cuts/relocation required from their staff.

UA is chest-beating and unless there is some compelling underlying business logic behind their actions today, which I find hard to believe, they're committing some serious, hardcore corporate and PR blunders in the wake of the decision today.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4611 posts, RR: 23
Reply 85, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6221 times:

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 69):
Since WN won't be starting international until 2015, if lucky maybe 2014, I don't see how that requires UA to do cuts today. More than likely these cuts were in the works and just announced today in an attempt to make WN into the bad guy.

Bingo. They find that WN is a great scapegoat to announcement plans they've probably have had in the works for awhile. They them cry and whine...perhaps someone needs a diaper changed? lol


User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 86, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6147 times:

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 76):
UA just announced that they will not start IAH-AKL,

No surprise there, this was just a scapegoat to not start it.

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 76):
will trim IAH capacity by 10%, cut 1300 jobs

Probably was going to do that anyway.

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 76):
and will most likely not finish the second phase of the terminal B expansion (600 million dollars)

A hissy fit maneuver.

United is really f#%^in' up the relations with the city of Houston. They would have been better off letting this one just die down. Their service is already pathetic. Why further piss off the flying public.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlinetsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6075 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 63):
Nothing official has been announced yet to the public on this, but if it indeed is true, I will be sorely irate. This is power-play of utmost unimportance right now; UA has much larger priorities to worry about rather than continue to alienate its relations with the city where its largest hub is located.
Quoting 737tanker (Reply 69):
Since WN won't be starting international until 2015, if lucky maybe 2014, I don't see how that requires UA to do cuts today



Spot on for both of these....UA has so many much bigger issues to address concerning integration, that I can't imagine the waste of time and money making an issue out of this. If this is really whats important at Willis Tower it says much more about how out of touch management is with what really matters right now, to engage in a pissing match with the city of Houston over an fairly insignificant issue. Shocking...


User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4283 posts, RR: 52
Reply 88, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6061 times:

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 62):
UA just announced that they will not start IAH-AKL, will trim IAH capacity by 10%, cut 1300 jobs, and will most likely not finish the second phase of the terminal B expansion (600 million dollars)

I guess they weren't bluffing
Quoting drerx7 (Reply 72):
A hissy fit maneuver.

United is really f#%^in' up the relations with the city of Houston. They would have been better off letting this one just die down. Their service is already pathetic. Why further piss off the flying public.

They were bluffing. The only reason UA would bring HOU into this discussion is convenient timing. UA isn't really saying that it won't start IAH-AKL because WN might start flying HOU-SJO in 2015. They're seeing a reduction in demand for their current and proposed flights out of IAH and they can tie it in with the HOU announcement. Same tactic used by AA a few years ago when WN starting operating to MCI, STL and BHM out of DAL: AA announced that, because the Wright Amendment was expanded to include Kansas, Missouri, Alabama and Mississippi, they would stop service from DFW-LIM. The timing of the announcement is just corporate gamesmanship, nothing more.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlinebarney captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 982 posts, RR: 12
Reply 89, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6012 times:

I'm happy to see my fellow A'netters didn't fall for the UA finger pointing. The ink isn't even dry or the terminal built, and they're already cutting flights and jobs to soften the impact? Pahleeeze.


...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offline96texan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6019 times:

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 62):
UA just announced that they will not start IAH-AKL, will trim IAH capacity by 10%, cut 1300 jobs, and will most likely not finish the second phase of the terminal B expansion (600 million dollars)

Says who?

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 62):
I guess they weren't bluffing

Though I don't agree with the expansion, I'm pretty sure they are. I don't see United cutting anything from Houston given that this is one of their most profitable hubs.


User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1983 posts, RR: 2
Reply 91, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6067 times:

Quoting texan (Reply 88):
They were bluffing. The only reason UA would bring HOU into this discussion is convenient timing. UA isn't really saying that it won't start IAH-AKL because WN might start flying HOU-SJO in 2015. They're seeing a reduction in demand for their current and proposed flights out of IAH and they can tie it in with the HOU announcement

   Exactly, that is so lame on UA's part. They also said: "On Tuesday, United spokesman Christen David said the airline had planned Houston-Auckland flights "on the assumption that (Bush Intercontinental) would be the sole international airport, maximizing connecting traffic. If that isn't the case, the flight won't work."

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/arti...lights-what-about-houston-auckland

Yeah, right... like WNs flights to the Caribbean or Mexico killed UAs chances on Houston-AUCKLAND. RIDICULOUS.



My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7757 posts, RR: 25
Reply 92, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6025 times:

Quoting texan (Reply 88):
They were bluffing. The only reason UA would bring HOU into this discussion is convenient timing. UA isn't really saying that it won't start IAH-AKL because WN might start flying HOU-SJO in 2015.
Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 91):
Exactly, that is so lame on UA's part. They also said: "On Tuesday, United spokesman Christen David said the airline had planned Houston-Auckland flights "on the assumption that (Bush Intercontinental) would be the sole international airport, maximizing connecting traffic. If that isn't the case, the flight won't work."

This.

The reason they arent going to start IAH-AKL has nothing to do with WN. The more likely conclusion is that they didnt want to start it in the first place.

The 10% trim in capacity is probably going to be domestic and nothing to get worked up over.

I doubt they end up getting rid of 1300 jobs. I see that as posturing and nothing more.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2229 posts, RR: 15
Reply 93, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5905 times:

Quoting texan (Reply 74):
Same tactic used by AA a few years ago when WN starting operating to MCI, STL and BHM out of DAL: AA announced that, because the Wright Amendment was expanded to include Kansas, Missouri, Alabama and Mississippi, they would stop service from DFW-LIM.

Bingo.

I am so happy you mentioned that example, because AA indeed employed the exact, same slimy rhetoric nearly 7 years ago from DFW. Here is the Press Release from that year:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...to-dallas-love-field-55523872.html

Indeed, the same time AA was forced to "shift" flights to launch DAL-SAT/AUS/MCI/STL, DFW lost service to Rochester, MN, Green Bay, WI, Long Beach, CA, Providence, RI and Toledo, OH. AA also chopped DFW-Lima, Peru, which it stated in the press release was a, "vital Latin American market."

Hysterically, in the years which have followed, AA has undergone MASSIVE domestic capacity reductions as part of the 2008 economic crisis and Chapter 11 filing; yet, in spite of these much more drastic scenarios, DFW has not seen similar losses/reductions to markets on AA metal of the same size and scale as in 2005 when they made these cuts.

AA has also EXPANDED to new international markets from DFW in the years since, including MAD, GIG, SAL, PTY, PLS, among others.

Lima, the so-called "vital Latin American market" has since not been resumed. I'm sure it had EVERYTHING to do with Wright at DAL. Much like UA at IAH vs. WN at HOU.

Oh, and AA also has pulled out of DAL entirely  
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 78):
This.

The reason they arent going to start IAH-AKL has nothing to do with WN. The more likely conclusion is that they didnt want to start it in the first place.

The 10% trim in capacity is probably going to be domestic and nothing to get worked up over.

I doubt they end up getting rid of 1300 jobs. I see that as posturing and nothing more.

Bearing in mind that it was originally CO who had announced the IAHAKL route, that makes a whole lot more sense.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 94, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5873 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 79):
Bearing in mind that it was originally CO who had announced the IAHAKL route, that makes a whole lot more sense.

Exactly. Hell, the acclerated sale of the 735s and 762s coupled with the consolidation of pmUA/pmCO routes at IAH aaaaand the Saab draw down could account for a few percentage points of that 10% reduction in flying at IAH. The IAH market will grown naturally and any opportunity for growth that UA passes on will be filled by another carrier...especially international - just as what has happened in the past 10-15 years of CO IAH growth stagnancy. Ahem, EK, QR, SQ...



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3419 posts, RR: 5
Reply 95, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5447 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 78):
The reason they arent going to start IAH-AKL has nothing to do with WN. The more likely conclusion is that they didnt want to start it in the first place.
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 79):
Bearing in mind that it was originally CO who had announced the IAHAKL route, that makes a whole lot more sense.

You beat me to it, CO was a more pacific oriented airline, a route like IAH-AKL was a great way to prove the need for a bunch of new 787's, for CO. I think UA can better deploy a 787 elsewhere, ie... DEN-NRT. I do hope UA will remain committed to the Pacific region, not just the Pacific rim.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2254 posts, RR: 8
Reply 96, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5299 times:

Some advice to UA management:

I'd encourage you to spend more time worrying about the pre-merger UA elites in LAX and New York City who are so unhappy about post-merger IT system woes that they are defecting to AA and DL (see FlyerTalk's UA forum if you want to know why they are apopleptic), and less time worrying about WN's planned international expansion out of Houston.

Most of the passengers who will be taking WN out of HOU are either (1) passengers who are flying because WN's lower fares stimulate the market, or (2) low yield VFR traffic. This is traffic UA doesn't particularly want.

The passengers who are defecting to AA and DL because they're tired of having problems with upgrades, or seat assignments being changed at the last minute, are the passengers UA can least afford to lose; they are UA's best customers.

If UA can't resolve their IT issues quickly, WN will be the least of their problems.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlinetsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4921 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 82):




You hit the nail on the head...UA is wasting time, money, and effort on a non issue such as WN's PLANNED Mexico, Caribbean flights and not worrying about things such as frequent fl yer defections, IT issues company wide, labor contract and integration issues etc....that they truly believe HOU Intl gates is a much important issue than all these other merger related problems, that are either being addressed belatedly or not at all, shows a major lack of understanding or whats important going forward.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26013 posts, RR: 50
Reply 98, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4558 times:

Houston Mayor call's the United trying to link the 1,300 cuts to the HOU vote as BS.


“They’ve stated continuously that they welcome competition. That competition is at least three years away. For United to say there are going to be 1,300 people laid off next week or so, that’s just not reasonable.

“Because nothing is going to happen until that terminal is built. There’s no competition today. So any decisions they make on personnel are based on other things, not the vote we cast” Parker said.


http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...cutting-1300-jobs-in-houston.html/

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3304 posts, RR: 5
Reply 99, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4526 times:

This is just the excuse that UA was looking for to pull jobs out of Houston altogether. Looks like the old United culture is surviving, thats too bad.

User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 100, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4356 times:

And this hasn't gone unnoticed by the city of Houston either. This morning on the news Mayor Parker stated that she believes that the UA layoffs would have come anyway regardless of the Southwest decision due to a slowdown of traffic through IAH compared to recent years.
I wonder what Smisek will say to that? He needs to learn that he can't try to fool all of the people all of the time.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26013 posts, RR: 50
Reply 101, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4256 times:

And comments from United management as to why the cuts now in 2012 --

Why competition in 2015 means cuts at IAH in 2012?

Throughout the debate on the development of HOU (Hobby-Houston) as an international airport, United has made the point that a competing international airport at HOU would result in a diversion of passengers we carry today to Hobby.

This would drive a reduction of 1,300 jobs at United and our partner airlines at IAH (roughly 800 jobs today and 500 jobs in the future). We expect to begin a 10 percent reduction in planned IAH capacity beginning with the fall 2012 schedule change.

Some of you have asked, “Why so soon, if Southwest does not intend to fly international flights out of HOU until 2015?”

Here’s why: There is a segment of our operation at IAH that is not profitable today. We have operated these flights expecting that future growth will improve the routes and make them profitable.
As a result of the city’s decision to develop HOU as a competing international airport, the growth will not occur and, as a result, we will cut unprofitable flying in our schedule now rather than continue to lose money with no expectation of improvement. “These are the kind of tough decisions we make every day,” said Network SVP Greg Hart. “We have a responsibility to our investors and all of our employees to invest where we have the best opportunity of generating profits.”

The changes would reduce current capacity at IAH by about 6 percent with reductions planned for several domestic and international markets. The other 4 percent of the 10 percent reduction in planned capacity will come as a result of not starting service that was part of our longer-term plan for IAH. A competing international airport will have a material impact on the long-term profitability of IAH and the planned-for growth won’t generate the necessary profits to justify the investment in the flying.



Me says, some things are a miss with IAH already, and the Hobby issue is a convenient cover to tweak, or in corporate parlance "right-size" the hub.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 102, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4162 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 87):
Me says, some things are a miss with IAH already, and the Hobby issue is a convenient cover to tweak, or in corporate parlance "right-size" the hub.

Maybe, I'm still not sure I buy it though. There is still the fact that Saabs are going away which will account for some unprofitable flying in itself, accelerated sale of 735s/762s, and redeployment of 753s to cover 767 retrofits...



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently onlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4071 times:

Well, Victoria, Texas is being cut completely so I guess that counts as part of the 6%
and IAH-AKL is out as part of the future 4 %

What other routes or potential routes are gone?
Rumours of an IAH-MAD route or IAH-MUC were strong, especially IAH-MUC I'll presume that will not happen as another part of the 4%.

I am curious about the 6% of current capacity cut. One fo the double daily LHR fligthts? (those are money makers from what I hear so I doubt it. Tokyo-IAH makes money. So I presume we are talking medium/short haul Int'l.



“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7757 posts, RR: 25
Reply 104, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4065 times:

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 89):

IAHMAD was rumored when CO was in Skyteam and before DFWMAD was being flown. I think we could have laid that one to rest a couple of years ago.

IAHMUC was much more promising and would probably work nicely, but LH would be more likely to go after that one in my opinion.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 105, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4053 times:

What I want to know is that if WN won't start international flying out of HOU until 2014-5 or so how is this hurting UA now and causing needed layoffs? I'd like to see Smisek's answer to THAT!

User currently onlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1047 posts, RR: 0
Reply 106, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3959 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 105):

They were going to be laid off either way... All of the training departments, etc, are redundant.



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlineSchweigend From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 630 posts, RR: 2
Reply 107, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3915 times:

Interesting, I noticed something in LAXintl's quotation from a UA statement:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 87):


United has made the point that a competing international airport at HOU would result in a diversion of passengers we carry today to Hobby.

UA carries pax to Hobby? What a gaffe!

...

The job losses would have happened anyway. UA's "reduction" in capacity at IAH is just good fleet planning. Some passengers connecting via IAH now can be better routed over other hubs, like DEN. And, along with the AKL route loss, part of IAH's capacity reduction could be attributed to the introduction of Y+, which will probably result in at least 3% fewer ASMs.

...

RE: WN --- we'll see what happens in 2014-2015.... UA and Southwest will compete, and people will choose their airline. I think WN's meat here will really be connecting pax, not O&D.

A larger question, will Southwest serve the new international destinations from Hobby with an F cabin?

Me, I see them keeping their all-Y configuration, unless they decide to do a subfleet.


User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 108, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3726 times:

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 107):
A larger question, will Southwest serve the new international destinations from Hobby with an F cabin?

Me, I see them keeping their all-Y configuration, unless they decide to do a subfleet.

I agree, I don't see Southwest trying to attract premium class passengers. They have more than enough potential with people who are just looking for cheap fares.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26013 posts, RR: 50
Reply 109, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3661 times:

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 88):
There is still the fact that Saabs are going away which will account for some unprofitable flying in itself

Remember E-135s are being rushing into service to back fill for the loss of the Saab's So its not much a net loss.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 92):
They were going to be laid off either way... All of the training departments, etc, are redundant.

   From what I can surmise, some of the cuts were to happen anyways, and this is simply a nice cover imo.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 93):
UA carries pax to Hobby? What a gaffe!

Might be a gaffe, however they could also mean from the Hobby catchment area which today UA carries via IAH.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 93):
The job losses would have happened anyway. UA's "reduction" in capacity at IAH is just good fleet planning. Some passengers connecting via IAH now can be better routed over other hubs, like DEN. And, along with the AKL route loss, part of IAH's capacity reduction could be attributed to the introduction of Y+, which will probably result in at least 3% fewer ASMs.

One thing that might be at work with IAH is that historically it had very high transfer rate. Now with the new UA having 4 mid-country hubs (DEN, IAH, ORD, CLE) the options to connect people is greater, and IAH can be refocused slightly greater on local traffic which by its nature should be more profitable on stage length basis.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 93):
A larger question, will Southwest serve the new international destinations from Hobby with an F cabin?

No way. At their recent press day, they made a point that they plan to remain single class even with the experience of AirTran and its F class offering.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 110, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3599 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 95):
Remember E-135s are being rushing into service to back fill for the loss of the Saab's So its not much a net loss.

Some routes are going away period though...like VCT...



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26013 posts, RR: 50
Reply 111, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3531 times:

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 96):
Some routes are going away period though...like VCT...

A couple here and there out of 400 odd destinations does not mean much. Cities come and go anyhow.

At the end of the day, UA's ASM guidance remained pretty flat regardless of what happens with the Saab's as they will essentially be back filled with ERJ135s coming from the desert.

Lets instead wait to see how the fall & winter schedule get firmed up to judge what this weeks news truly triggered.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 997 posts, RR: 51
Reply 112, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3414 times:

Quoting brandonfsu05 (Reply 42):
In any case...the US government is going to be subsidizing WN's operation basically...You have to duplicate all the roles and positions even if its for only 5 flights or something..

Wrong. WN subsidizes the U.S. government, not the other way around. WN's corporate income taxes alone in the last 5 years exceed $1 billion to Uncle Sam. That is in addition to the billions in aviation fuel taxes, excise taxes, security fees, facility usage fees, etc over the same period of time.


User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 113, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3317 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 97):
At the end of the day, UA's ASM guidance remained pretty flat regardless of what happens with the Saab's as they will essentially be back filled with ERJ135s coming from the desert.

Lets instead wait to see how the fall & winter schedule get firmed up to judge what this weeks news truly triggered.

Point taken, the interesting thing is that 319/320 and 756 sUA base is opening at IAH for the fall schedule and this summer has a lot of 757 equipment. I'd like to see how capacity has changed at IAH since the influx of pmUA birds.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2737 posts, RR: 1
Reply 114, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2992 times:

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 77):
Yeah, right... like WNs flights to the Caribbean or Mexico killed UAs chances on Houston-AUCKLAND.

Oh, you'd be surprised to know how many people fly between SJU and AKL these days    

The City of Houston took the right decision. Those cuts were going to happen anyhow, and the WN intl operation at HOU provided UA management with the perfect excuse. I'm glad to see that people haven't fallen for that trick. The WN operation will serve lower-yielding holiday & VFR travelers and won't be taking so much business away from UA, but rather nicely complement the overall offer available in Houston. And traffic to Mex/Caribbean stands to grow in the long term, it's not like it were a stagnant market where growth has to happen at the expense of others' market share.

Quoting texan (Reply 74):
They were bluffing. The only reason UA would bring HOU into this discussion is convenient timing. UA isn't really saying that it won't start IAH-AKL because WN might start flying HOU-SJO in 2015. They're seeing a reduction in demand for their current and proposed flights out of IAH and they can tie it in with the HOU announcement.

  

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 87):
some things are a miss with IAH already, and the Hobby issue is a convenient cover to tweak, or in corporate parlance "right-size" the hub.

  


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5195 posts, RR: 21
Reply 115, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2877 times:

On a related note, UA has earned a "coveted" Cranky Flyer Jackass Award thanks to the IAH kerfuffle:

http://crankyflyer.com/

Spot on.



Next up, STL-ATL-MSY-ATL-STL
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 116, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2775 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 101):
On a related note, UA has earned a "coveted" Cranky Flyer Jackass Award thanks to the IAH kerfuffle:

http://crankyflyer.com/

Spot on.

     
Congratulations to United, back to earning awards! This one was well deserved.

Its been quiet at the UA camp as well...probably a good move to let this bad publicity fade away so that they can get back to attempting to run the airline.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 117, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 102):
Its been quiet at the UA camp as well...probably a good move to let this bad publicity fade away so that they can get back to attempting to run the airline.

So long as UA keeps adding nonstops from DEN to places like NRT (with their new 787 no less), they can't do too much wrong in my book.....


 


User currently offlinetoxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2476 times:

Quoting BlueDanube (Reply 10):
and that would only hurt UA. That is one flight. Now lets see if UA gets rid of IAH-GIG, IAH-MEX etc etc. UA needs IAH as it is a cash cow for them. If they leave IAH, another airline will fill the void and cash in on the high airfares too and from IAH. Why on earth would you leave an airport with the highest fares in the United States?

If there were any gates at all available, I'm sure someone like Spirit, Frontier or Virgin would be interested. If UA doesn't want to finish B, the City should just yank back the gates on the north side of B, develop it themselves and invite other carriers to make offers on the gates.


User currently offlinetoxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 119, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2430 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 101):
Here’s why: There is a segment of our operation at IAH that is not profitable today. We have operated these flights expecting that future growth will improve the routes and make them profitable.

Who are they kidding? A metro with over 6 million people, 25 Fortune 500 corporations and sizeable oil wealth should not have unprofitable segments. They're just doing a terrible job of getting the connecting passenger flow to work because they're so focused on capturing O&D and they have so few empty seats. If DFW-Garden City, KS can be a profitable route, CO should be able to make money between Houston and Victoria, TX.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7757 posts, RR: 25
Reply 120, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2369 times:

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 119):
Who are they kidding? A metro with over 6 million people, 25 Fortune 500 corporations and sizeable oil wealth should not have unprofitable segments.



Just because the above is true does not mean there is not a segment that is not profitable. I would find it extremely unlikely that every destination served from IAH is profitable for UA. Im sure they have a higher that average profitability per destination ratio, but it would not shock me at all if 10% of the places they fly from Houston lose money.

For example, I know that PMCO IAH-AMS/LHR/FRA were very profitable but that IAH-CDG was not. Dont know if that is different now or not.

[Edited 2012-06-05 12:04:58]


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently onlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1047 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2362 times:

With close to the highest fares in the country, they have to be making money on something at IAH.


My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2554 posts, RR: 13
Reply 122, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2355 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 91):
What I want to know is that if WN won't start international flying out of HOU until 2014-5 or so how is this hurting UA now and causing needed layoffs? I'd like to see Smisek's answer to THAT!

Funny that the answer to your question was provided in this very thread four hours and four replies before you asked the question . . .  
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 87):
And comments from United management as to why the cuts now in 2012 --
. . . .



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 123, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2315 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 106):
For example, I know that PMCO IAH-AMS/LHR/FRA were very profitable but that IAH-CDG was not. Dont know if that is different now or not.

I don't know...its a 762 right now, I could see that being one of the first routes to go 763 once the sUA 756 base opens up in September.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 108):
Funny that the answer to your question was provided in this very thread four hours and four replies before you asked the question . . .

LOL, yeah...whether it was a b.s. answer is the real question.

I definitely see UA axing some destinations...but that is the thing, a station like VCT could have been barely profitable with the Saabs as it was...you know its going into the red if you put a -135 on the route. So it gets cut due to the Pinnacle/Colgan situation and lacking an appropriate aircraft to backfill. Smisek blames the cut on WN @ HOU.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7757 posts, RR: 25
Reply 124, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2312 times:

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 109):
I don't know...its a 762 right now, I could see that being one of the first routes to go 763 once the sUA 756 base opens up in September.

I dont know if its still not profitable, it may be know. I do know that it wasnt pre-merger for at least a time.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4029 posts, RR: 8
Reply 125, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2293 times:
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all three of these routes from IAH will turn to the 767-400 this year. Which will be a much needed product with the retro-fit of the 764 fleet.


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlinetoxtethogrady From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2265 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 106):
I would find it extremely unlikely that every destination served from IAH is profitable for UA.

I have a hard time believing from their P & L that their domestic operations are so expensive (over 20 cents a seat-mile). Could that be the result of their dogged insistence on flying those 145's everywhere?


User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1983 posts, RR: 2
Reply 127, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2270 times:

This thread no longer has anything to do with WN or HOU.


My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7757 posts, RR: 25
Reply 128, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2257 times:

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 111):
all three of these routes from IAH will turn to the 767-400 this year.

I thought all three were minus CDG in the winter?



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 129, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2248 times:

This discussion has veer well off course, as the thread is supposed to be about Southwest and the City of Houston, not a general discussion about United. This thread is now locked and no additional threads on the original topic will be allowed without first obtaining Moderator permission. Failure to obtain Moderator permission will result in that thread being deleted.

Any posts that appear after this locking message will be deleted for housekeeping purposes.


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