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Why No US Airlines On The CDG-LAX Route?  
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2611 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6834 times:

AF and TN are the only carriers that operate the route.
Why are there no US airlines on that route?
This route seems to be so profitable... I don't understand


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23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2312 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6816 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
AF and TN are the only carriers that operate the route.

If TN joins OW, then we definitely won't see AA metal on that route.

[Edited 2012-05-24 05:24:54]


The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17008 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6707 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
This route seems to be so profitable...

How can you tell that?



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineSRT75 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6669 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
This route seems to be so profitable... I

Several US carriers have had CDG service from LAX in the past, but have never been able to maintain that service. I think DL was one of the last US carriers to give it a try. With Skyteam, no need now for DL to use its own metal on that route.

Given AA's (and UA if I recall correctly) flop on the route, I'm not sure how profitable it is.


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1414 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6669 times:

DL is "doing" the route, on AF metal...
Same thing right?
This is not 1980/90's. We live in age of JV.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineSkyTeamTriStar From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 382 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6571 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 4):
DL is "doing" the route, on AF metal...
Same thing right?
This is not 1980/90's. We live in age of JV.

Exactly. According to RA, its the same as a DL flight...and to be treated as such.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8092 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6213 times:
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After selling their LHR routes TWA replaced their LAX to LHR with LAX to CDG with a 763ER nonstop, usually 3 times weekly.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24345 posts, RR: 47
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6050 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
This route seems to be so profitable...

Considering TWA, AA and UA have all pulled out, I doubt it. Also UA dropped its SFO-CDG.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
AF and TN are the only carriers that operate the route.

Remember however that a fair number of passengers for each airline are transit to French Polynesia, so its not solely a Paris-LA market these guys are carrying.

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 3):
I think DL was one of the last US carriers to give it a try.

DL never operated the route.

Its sole LAX-Europe nonstop was LAX-FRA.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5861 times:

My guess:

DL - They JV with AF already as stated above.

UA - SFO would make more sense and but even though LAX and SFO are UA hubs, the route would be almost entirely O&D because UA has no feed on CDG and there would be little connecting traffic on the west end except for some inter-California flights.

AA - Same issue as UA.

If anything, I could see SFO-CDG being a future 788 route for UA...


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5821 times:

Duplicate Post

Filller - Filler - Filler

[Edited 2012-05-24 12:19:12]

User currently offlineboeingfever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5801 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Also UA dropped its SFO-CDG.

No LAX-CDG or SFO-CDG on UA metal... Kinda shocking.   



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 868 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5056 times:

A lot of the high-yield passengers between CDG and LAX are only O&D from Paris, and at a lesser level France. Mostly French pax rather than US pax. So the capacity in P and J offered by AF with 2 daily 77W is enough to catch this demand.

The problem with TW, UA and AA was that their good load factor on this route, was only O&D Y passengers. Very low yields considering the distance...

And only 3 weekly flights are continuing to Tahiti, it means 17 AF weekly flights CDG-LAX-CDG. Now with the A380 there will be less frequencies.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24109 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4954 times:

Quoting boeingfever777 (Reply 10):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
Also UA dropped its SFO-CDG.

No LAX-CDG or SFO-CDG on UA metal... Kinda shocking.

Not shocking. CDG isn't a Star Alliance hub. UA has plenty of connecting options to CDG via their other hubs and alliance partners.


User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3945 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4120 times:
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Quoting AirGabon (Reply 11):

And only 3 weekly flights are continuing to Tahiti, it means 17 AF weekly flights CDG-LAX-CDG. Now with the A380 there will be less frequencies.

I don't believe the CDG-LAX-PPT-LAX-CDG will be affected. I believe the schedule is staying the same. It's the CDG-LAX-CDG flights that are being affected. They are going from 3x daily during the busy summer season, down to to 2x daily on the busiest days because of the upgauge of the afternoon flight from a 77W to a A388.

I'm interested to know how Air Tahiti Nui does in this market? Do they have a lot of premium demand? Flying the A343 is not very efficient with the cost of fuel being what it is. This route would be better served with a A332 or a 77E.


User currently offlinejporterfi From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 425 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4106 times:

I would think some U.S. passengers would want this route enough to justify at least one U.S. airline being on this route, but I suppose AF does the job. Can anyone see AA or UA relaunching this route anytime soon? Even with AF serving the route, I would think that a flight by DL (maybe on a 763 or 764) to complement this service would be profitable and competitive, especially during seasons of high-demand.

User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3945 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3727 times:
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Quoting jporterfi (Reply 14):
I would think some U.S. passengers would want this route enough to justify at least one U.S. airline being on this route, but I suppose AF does the job. Can anyone see AA or UA relaunching this route anytime soon? Even with AF serving the route, I would think that a flight by DL (maybe on a 763 or 764) to complement this service would be profitable and competitive, especially during seasons of high-demand.


If that's the case and there are some U.S. passengers who want to fly on a homeland carrier, so be it. AF offers a decent product nose to tail, though their J cabin needs a more modern seat and cabin, amenity kit. Across the board, their catering is better than anyone else in the market.


User currently offlinechristao17 From Thailand, joined Apr 2005, 934 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3668 times:

You can fly from LAX to CDG on UA, US, DL, and AA with only a single stop. If there isn't the demand to fill the nonstop flight profitably, there is no reason for US carriers to fly the route.


Keeping the "civil" in civil aviation...
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1446 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2424 times:

This route is NOT profitable for US carriers. What makes it work for AF is the beyond CDG connections. The avg fare from LAX isn't much higher than from east coast gateways. So from US carriers standpoint why fly 2000 more miles for 0$ more revenue?

User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1132 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days ago) and read 2212 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 13):
I'm interested to know how Air Tahiti Nui does in this market? Do they have a lot of premium demand?

TN primary focus is to connect FP with metropolitan France. LAX just happens to be in the middle. About 60-70% of passengers are transit, so the focus is not about trying to compete in LAX-CDG sector.
This is also the case with AF CDG-LAX-PPT service, where the bulk of passengers are transit as well via LAX.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24345 posts, RR: 47
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days ago) and read 2137 times:

I think when you subtract all the Tahiti transit passengers that both TN and AF carry, the LAX-Paris market becomes much smaller, and one that is quite leisure heavy.

It probably also says a lot about market realities, that no US carrier has been able to support LAX-Europe service beyond London over the long run in recent times. Even UA @ SFO only manages a FRA link besides LHR, and that is very much dependent on its Star/LH link.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2019 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2116 times:

I speculate that UA may give SFO-CDG another shot, as well as LAX-FRA as part of their alternating season strategy. While it does not quite balance out, the plan is to use the 787s and alternate them with the 772s and 744s (and later with the A350s) is regions that have alternating seasonal demand so destinations that are stronger during the North American summer such as Asia and Europe will get larger planes in those seasons while regions that are stronger during the winter such as India, South America and Australia will get larger planes in the North American winter. Some key routes like to LHR and NRT will probably get the same size aircraft most of the year.

UA might send a 787 or converted Ghetto Bird on SFO-CDG or LAX-FRA routes as they clearly could not support a 772 but might work with a smaller plane, particularly during the summer.


User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3945 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2001 times:
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Quoting AADC10 (Reply 20):
I speculate that UA may give SFO-CDG another shot, as well as LAX-FRA as part of their alternating season strategy. While it does not quite balance out, the plan is to use the 787s and alternate them with the 772s and 744s (and later with the A350s) is regions that have alternating seasonal demand so destinations that are stronger during the North American summer such as Asia and Europe will get larger planes in those seasons while regions that are stronger during the winter such as India, South America and Australia will get larger planes in the North American winter. Some key routes like to LHR and NRT will probably get the same size aircraft most of the year.

UA might send a 787 or converted Ghetto Bird on SFO-CDG or LAX-FRA routes as they clearly could not support a 772 but might work with a smaller plane, particularly during the summer.

In these economically turbulent times, I don't see any of this happening ever for UA. It was just a short few years ago, UA had started LAX-FRA-LAX only to end it a short time later with LH re-starting their second flight. It doesn't make sense for them to start this route even more so now, than previously.

Perhaps SFO-CDG-SFO could possibly work with the 788 or a 76W, but again, I don't see it happening. AF knows this is a leisure heavy market and thus fly it that way accordingly, with a A388 during the peak seasons which have a very large Y cabin with much smaller J & Y+ cabins (I do know they have P on this a/c, but it's just a few seats, when the rest of the year they fly this market with JWY 77E/A343/A332s. UA tried to get this market to work for years and it was a struggle for them as was LAX-CDG when they flew it years ago with the 763ER.


User currently offlineUALFAson From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 660 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1935 times:

Also keep in mind the demographics of the city. Not that there aren't French or other Europeans who reside in L.A., but the city (and state of California as a whole, for that matter) have much larger Asian communities and ties to that continent, just as the U.S. East Coast has more ties to Europe than it does to Asia.

Furthermore, the flight time between the two cities is about 11 hours, making it fairly difficult for business or leisure travelers to work in a "quick" trip between the cities, the way folks in the Northeastern U.S. might be able to.

As much as I love Paris, given the price of fuel and Europe's economic woes, I don't see any U.S. airlines starting any Cali-Paris routes anytime soon.



"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1521 times:

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 11):

And only 3 weekly flights are continuing to Tahiti, it means 17 AF weekly flights CDG-LAX-CDG. Now with the A380 there will be less frequencies

AF has 14 weekly CDG-LAX-CDG flights, 3 of which continue to PPT.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 13):
They are going from 3x daily during the busy summer season, down to to 2x daily on the busiest days because of the upgauge of the afternoon flight from a 77W to a A388.

The morning flight AF066/5 is the A380, not the afternoon flight. AFAIK they'll do 14 weekly in S12 and 10 weekly in W12.


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