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Air Canada In Talks To Lease 5 B777-200LRs  
User currently offlinepictues From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 21330 times:

http://economictimes...ow/13558767.cms

these are on top of orders for an additional 5 B777-300ER's Air Canada has with Boeing, not sure when the 5 B77W's will be delivered though.

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1250 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 21213 times:

The link doesn't work.

I wonder if these are the planes QR has reportedly been trying to remarket.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 21178 times:

The 77L is my favorite 777, such brute force it has, like a rocket.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29656 posts, RR: 84
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 21127 times:
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Quoting sxf24 (Reply 1):
I wonder if these are the planes QR has reportedly been trying to remarket.

Looks like Air India frames: http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-F...e-Boeing-777s/Article1-861945.aspx


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2198 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 20829 times:

Air India airframes have come up previously. There were some "maintenance issues" or combatability issues that caused the pause or delay. So if these are indeed the ones being looked at then either conditions have changed enough to make the extra cost to convert over worthwhile, or there is enough of a shortage that they are the only option, or perhaps Air India has invested some funds to improve the issues.

It also could be that the LCC idea has been shelved and that the 767-300's will be retired quicker and replaced by the first tranch of 787's. Some of the younger and best 767's were destined for the LCC arm.

These leased 77L would likely be used on the expanded Asia and longest South American routes. I have always known that more 777's would be ordered and maybe this is the best way to get volume quickly given the large order book for 777's.


User currently offlineCOEWR787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 334 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 20651 times:

Hats off to Air-India for figuring out how to not be able to operate 777s profitably. Now they are pinning their hopes on operating 787s profitably, at which they will fail too. Afterall the problem is not with aircraft technology, but with their utter inability to manage anything. It would be interesting to see what excuses they come up with next.

User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 20478 times:

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 5):
Hats off to Air-India for figuring out how to not be able to operate 777s profitably. Now they are pinning their hopes on operating 787s profitably, at which they will fail too.

I am pretty sure if they fail that there are a few airlines willing to get their hands on those 787s rather than wait until 2050 or something  


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4716 posts, RR: 44
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 20384 times:

I find it odd that AC would be willing to lease a 3 class configured airplane as it would in turn (if indeed obtained) have to pay a fortune in getting the cabin interior retrofitted to suit its needs.

AI must be offering these birds at a really big discount to get such interest from AC which might though in turn off set the retrofit costs somewhat?


User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12406 posts, RR: 100
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 20381 times:
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Where are the speculated new destinations?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
Looks like Air India frames

  

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 4):
So if these are indeed the ones being looked at then either conditions have changed enough to make the extra cost to convert over worthwhile, or there is enough of a shortage that they are the only option, or perhaps Air India has invested some funds to improve the issues.

I suspect a mixture of the two. Improved conditions allow AC to pay for these aircraft to be brought up to standard and AI is probably being more reasonable to cut the cash burn.

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 5):

Hats off to Air-India for figuring out how to not be able to operate 777s profitably. Now they are pinning their hopes on operating 787s profitably, at which they will fail too.

   A bit harsh in wording. Alas this is true until AI improves their efficiency (e.g., employees per airframe and not cutting the ones customers care about). The Indian economy is being held hostage to AI. While there are signs that there are more opportunities for the private airlines, I'll wait to see the bilateral rights actually assigned and flown.

Quoting pictues (Thread starter):

http://economictimes...ow/13558767.cms

Link isn't working for me...

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2198 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 20098 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
Where are the speculated new destinations?

The speculated cities will leave up to others, but it has been clear from AC that new China destinations, possibly both YVR and YYZ are high priorities. Also South America has been growing steadily and the volume of cargo is dramatically increasing. Perishable fresh fruit and veggies in season from Chili for example. The liberalized trade with Brazil is also increasing volumes. Large numbers of South Americans continue to bypass the US for connecting flights.
YUL to Turkey to dovetail with TK to YYZ has been hinted at lately. Also perhaps to dovetail with Ethiopian although I think volume isn't there for that until the route builds significantly.


User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 19892 times:

Interesting news! There was a thread here not too long ago that talked about AC exercising 2 B77W options and possibly leasing those birds out, as AC may not require them. So if AC leases 5 77Ls, would they still lease out the 2 77Ws that are due in 2013?



Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
I find it odd that AC would be willing to lease a 3 class configured airplane as it would in turn (if indeed obtained) have to pay a fortune in getting the cabin interior retrofitted to suit its needs.

Any chance AC would keep the 3 class set-up and charge a premium on top of the Executive Class fare? Some of the leased 763s are in the non-XM'd config (granted they are used on vacation destinations).



Quoting sweair (Reply 2):
The 77L is my favorite 777, such brute force it has, like a rocket.

Same here! Same goes for the B762 and A332.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3696 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 19781 times:
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I can see CAN and/or CTU perhaps, and another 777 used to up-gauge a current A330 destination, freeing a frame to retire a 767.


I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineyyztpa From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 38 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 19442 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 10):
Interesting news! There was a thread here not too long ago that talked about AC exercising 2 B77W options and possibly leasing those birds out, as AC may not require them. So if AC leases 5 77Ls, would they still lease out the 2 77Ws that are due in 2013?

In addition to the 2 77Ws ordered in August 2011, 3 more 77Ws were ordered earlier this month, May 2012.


User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 19172 times:

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 9):
it has been clear from AC that new China destinations, possibly both YVR and YYZ are high priorities
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
I can see CAN and/or CTU perhaps, and another 777 used to up-gauge a current A330 destination, freeing a frame to retire a 767.

But CZ and Sichuan have already come into YVR on these exact routes, so the opportunities are disappearing. Maybe AC are realizing this and are going to do something about it. IMO the 77L is the wrong kind of metal for these routes though, so they must be getting a helluva deal.

Would not be surprised this is about eventual A330 replacement long term. 787's will replace 767's pretty much 1-1, the big busses will need to be replaced at some point.



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 18914 times:

Quoting yyztpa (Reply 12):

In addition to the 2 77Ws ordered in August 2011, 3 more 77Ws were ordered earlier this month, May 2012.

Wasn't aware of that, thanks. When are they scheduled to be delivered?

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 13):
Would not be surprised this is about eventual A330 replacement long term.

I thought AC's long-term plan was to replace the A333s with 787-9s, from what I know, AC is pretty happy with the A333s, especially on the trans-Atlantic routes.


KrisYYZ


User currently offlineAirCanadaA330 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 18577 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 2):
The 77L is my favorite 777, such brute force it has, like a rocket

Agreeed....besides the A330 which I wish AC would hold on to.

I am willing to bet these are coming from AI since they are looking to lease out 5 77L



Cheers;
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 18378 times:

If AC does take the 5 AI 77Ls I believe it will make AC the largest 77L operator with 11, followed by DL and EK, each with 10.

User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 18346 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 14):
I thought AC's long-term plan was to replace the A333s with 787-9s, from what I know, AC is pretty happy with the A333s, especially on the trans-Atlantic routes.

I think so, Im just talking long term general fleet total once even the 333's are gone as the number of 787's on order wont replace the 767's & A330's. Whereas adding 5x 77L & 2x 77W will - coincidence?

I think the 777 is too much metal for secondary Chinese markets, but should work for established routes like YVR - NRT, PVG & PEK and HKG needs to go twice daily to compete with CX. South America could also use the 777 cargo capacity. Short term that allows 767's to go back to the lessors. Long term, that frees up 787's to replace the 333's.



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 18020 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 17):
I think so, Im just talking long term general fleet total once even the 333's are gone as the number of 787's on order wont replace the 767's & A330's. Whereas adding 5x 77L & 2x 77W will - coincidence?

Probably not, and AC's A333s and B77Ls are very close in capacity so in theory it would make sense. Having an all Boeing wide-body fleet is AC's goal in the end.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1049 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17885 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 17):
South America could also use the 777 cargo capacity.

Perhaps GRU could see the 777 on a year round basis and the 767 could be used to open GIG. Brazil and Canada have an open-skies agreement so frequencies are not an issue and GIG is facing a strong economic expansion and strenghtening. Beats me what is still keeping AC away from there.



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 16512 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 18):
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 17):
I think so, Im just talking long term general fleet total once even the 333's are gone as the number of 787's on order wont replace the 767's & A330's. Whereas adding 5x 77L & 2x 77W will - coincidence?

Probably not, and AC's A333s and B77Ls are very close in capacity so in theory it would make sense. Having an all Boeing wide-body fleet is AC's goal in the end.

Wouldn't make economic sense to use the 77L on a route the A333 can handle. The 77L is over 50% heavier, meaning significantly higher fuel expenses not to mention much higher landing fees which in most of the world are based on maximum takeoff weight.

Unless you need the range, the 77W is a better option than the 77L since you can generate much more revenue from the additional seats (and cargo space). That's why so few 77Ls have been sold (only 57 orders of which 54 have been delivered in over 12 years since the 77L was launched) compared to 607 orders (332 delivered) for the 77W during the same period.

I don't see AC having many routes suitable for the 77L apart from those they're already operating. Would only make sense if the AI lease deal is very attractive.


User currently offlinePM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6840 posts, RR: 64
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 15856 times:

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 1):
I wonder if these are the planes QR has reportedly been trying to remarket.

I hadn't heard this one. Why don't QR want/need them?


User currently offlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 454 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 15588 times:

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 5):
Hats off to Air-India for figuring out how to not be able to operate 777s profitably.

That isn't AI not being able to use 77L frames profitably, that is the sign that AI is finally having to rethink their major long-haul fleet and destinations, owing to the almost monthlong and still ongoing strike by the pilots and staff within the airline.



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4755 posts, RR: 43
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 15484 times:

Yes, the aircraft being considered are coming from AI.

It is a possible 10 year lease, so putting a regular AC interior would make sense over such a long time.

The talk is for a high density, low yield configuration for low yield markets. 8 abreast Y+ and 10 abreast Y. With the ULH capability, I am thinking India ... again!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 15380 times:

I'm having a hard time convincing myself that AC is serious about adding additional 77L to their fleet. As already mentioned,it's a heavy aircraft and ULH flights are challenging from a profitability point of view. With fuel prices as they are,it's a risky move.

25 ac853 : Not sure I would agree that a 777 is an upgrade from a A330. The seating configuration is much better on the A330 and it's quieter.
26 bestwestern : India is still a lower yield market, and those with money tend to fly either Jet or foreign carriers. To be fair to AI, most airlines have struggled
27 Post contains images copa330200 : they key question is how much will AC pay for the aircrafts.. if they get a very sweet deal , it might work and we might be surprised [Edited 2012-05
28 sebring : That can be done with a 763.
29 Post contains images ANM604 : There were discussions some time ago regarding these frames, as well as some of AI's earlier 787 slots, but because of several issues it was never fo
30 Post contains images SA744 : Maybe we will see them flying into JNB.
31 na : I was immiadetely thinking Air India when I read the thread title. AI has been trying to offload some 777s for more than a year already.
32 SEPilot : This is why Boeing was initially not going to bother with the 77L. There were a few airlines that wanted it, though, and so they built it. I wonder i
33 Post contains images CXB77L : Great to see more 777s in AC's terrific livery The term is 'upgauge', not 'upgrade'. The term 'upgauge' simply means using a larger aircraft. I don't
34 aeroblogger : What nonsense. AI is poorly managed, yes, but it operates some of the top MROs in India. I'd like to see anybody operate the 77L profitably on USA-In
35 SEPilot : Certainly the overall 777 program has been a huge financial success; and the NG program has been a big part of it. But I have never known of a compan
36 sebring : The order had a split number of 788 and 789 fins from the get-go, and that number is adjusted with Boeing periodically along with AC's long-term rout
37 pnwtraveler : AC with the 777 and now with the 787 has a clause in their contracts that they can switch between models up to xx number of months from start of manu
38 Post contains links and images lightsaber : Is there a time frame for the handover of the 77Ls? I suspect it will take a few months for AC to put them into service. I suspect that will remain tr
39 Post contains images aeroblogger : It will take months for AI to get all necessary ministry approvals to proceed. Not sure when the process started though, so it could be soon.. other
40 JOYA380B747 : Hmm I was out of touch with this information, thanks. So I'm guessing this is how things at AI work, you plan to order a fleet of jets in one year, t
41 Post contains links and images aeroblogger : Indeed. Jitender Bhargava wrote an excellent piece on the destructive results of this a few years ago - well worth a read: http://www.business-standa
42 vin2basketball : Continental probably could... SFO-BLR by UA might work someday on a 77L (though UA will likely never order them). AI isn't holding the Indian economy
43 aeroblogger : I really doubt this. It's too long, and the yields aren't that great. You always love to attribute the low yields to AI, but one effect you completel
44 vin2basketball : Profit is profit Tell me again how SG and 6E affect F-class yields, international yields, or even domestic inelastic business yields? Fares in US dol
45 ANM604 : With all due respect, let's try to stick to the topic, and not the state of AI or Indian Aviation in general. I'm well aware there are numbers intern
46 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Or for something totally out of left field..... . http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=yyz+-+mnl...per&MS=wls&MR=1200&MX=720x360&PM=* You may e
47 krisyyz : Really? So AC would rather see the A333s leave the fleet before the aging B763s, that is surprising. Although I can't speak to the dispatch reliabili
48 lightsaber : I am corrected. I thought Spicejet and GoAir were doing better. I knew about AI, IT, and 9W. Yikes! Fair enough. I'm not exposed to it day to day. Es
49 PLANEMANGROY : Sadly, it sounds like a plan to phase out the 763 and eventually the A333. The 763's are just too old and a subfleet of A330's isn't a smart idea when
50 saloman : I don't think the choice ever was A333 or B763, as the 763 is a smaller aircraft. The choice of A333 or B77L entirely makes sense as the A/Cs are ver
51 aeroblogger : Yes, my apologies. Agreed. And if the deal goes through, we won't know for months.
52 Post contains images ANM604 : Yes they would rather see the 333's leave first, but not because of their performance or dispatch reliability (which is very good, for sure better th
53 vin2basketball : I'm still trying to nail down the max below cost figure (i.e whats the lowest price below cost that an airline can sustain long term in a plateau- no
54 aeroblogger : There is a difference between profit and sustainable profit. They don't (except for SIN/BKK/KTM/CMB). However, there are a lot of factors at play - I
55 krisyyz : Sad indeed, but I understand the rationale. Moving towards an all Boeing widebody fleet and greater engine commonality where highlighted as a major r
56 StarAC17 : The bog advantage that the 77L has is cargo, which is why AC operates it on YYZ-HKG where CX uses a 77W. The 77W ia weight restricted on that route.
57 Post contains images lightsaber : We can all agree on that. Although I think AC wouldn't mind them in house earlier. Interesting perspective. My opinion is 17 is the minimum for a sub
58 tayser : The perfect plane for YUL-YVR-MEL, creating a scissor hub in YVR for YYZ/YUL and SYD/MEL completing avoiding the USA (at least $100 premium right ther
59 tayser : current AC33/34 timetable (data from google): 8:25 pm → 10:13 pm YVR S M T W T F S Air Canada 33 [5h1m] 11:45 pm → 8:15 am YVR-SYD S M T W T F S
60 lightsaber : It isn't, hence the reason I latched onto the 'lease' in the thread title. I see this as a 5 to 7 year solution for AC. Any longer, and it makes more
61 ac853 : Thanks for this. I thought it was a typo.
62 Post contains images ANM604 : While I'm not an expert in this, I don't see the reconfiguration costing more then $20 million, barring these planes being substantially different fr
63 aircanada014 : I'd rather see A330 stay a bit longer, they are very nice a/c. It's nice to see AC pick up some more triple 7s
64 lightsaber : How is AC doing one 777 down? I'm curious if there has been any notable impact or has AC adapted well? I forgot about the five 77Ws on order. 23 to 28
65 bmacleod : Probably same as a few years ago when a AC 77W was briefly out of service due to tail-area damage.[Edited 2012-05-30 09:07:43]
66 Cruiser : Considering there was only a 12-14 airplane fleet of 340's, this is pretty amazing. Gotta love the 777, and AC must be finding them very valuable!
67 chrisa330 : Ops to LHR and FRA seem to be a complete cluster right now. Not sure if that's due to this incident, month end issues with crew maxing out hours, oth
68 Post contains images ANM604 : This has not been a good couple weeks for AC.
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