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Leahy- 777-300ER Cannot Compete With A350-1000  
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 970 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 42918 times:
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hum....

http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...-777-cannot-compete-a350-1000-0525

208 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3029 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 42826 times:

I don't really get the thread...

Of course the COO of Airbus is going to say the A350-1000 is better than the 777-300ER, they are barely going to say otherwise.

Also it would be pretty disastrous for an airliner manufacturer to build an aircraft almost 15 years after the 777-300ER was launched that is it meant to compete against, that wasn't better or improved.

But considering Airbus hasn't had any orders since 2008 that would seem to be a concern...

After issues with new aircraft like the A380 and 787, with delays and manufacturing issues cropping up, it makes me wonder if airlines are getting cold feet about ordering aircraft that currently only exist on paper and have not yet been built.

Also it goes as testament to the 777-300ER, on what an excellent aircraft it is and how over the years, it seems to have exceeded most airlines expectation and still continues to pull numerous orders from airlines that haven't operated the type previously. Even though was launched over a decade ago.


User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 42784 times:

Lets, just wait until the A350 1000 hit the skies.

User currently offlineEWRandMDW From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 416 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 42765 times:

Well, he's right ... in a sense. The 777-300ER is real and flying passengers worldwide while the A350-1000 exists on computer screens and blueprints. The 777 has a phantom plane to compete against!

User currently offlineNavion From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1013 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 42692 times:

I too found Leahy's comment to be a non-starter as a) it is obvious an aircraft designed almost 15 years after it's intended competition should have some performance improvements and b) Boeing is readying a response when they feel the time is right in the form of the 777X family. Maybe Leahy is taking a proactive approach (i.e. going on the offensive) as he may feel troubled by the interest of some of his customers in the 777X?

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31006 posts, RR: 86
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 42636 times:
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It seems logical that the 777-300ER would not compete with the A350-1000.

Leahey's main problem now is that as the A350-1000's EIS is pushed farther and farther to the right, customers are buying 777-300ERs in the interim and that means less of them need an A350-1000 once slots become available.

Quoting Navion (Reply 4):
Maybe Leahy is taking a proactive approach (i.e. going on the offensive) as he may feel troubled by the interest of some of his customers in the 777X?

With the 777X and A350-1000 EIS relatively close (and perhaps getting closer if the A350 program is delayed even more), once airlines are ready to start ordering A350-1000s, Boeing's RFP will more and more not be the 777-300ER, but instead the 777-8 and 777-9.


User currently offlineKBJCpilot From United States of America, joined May 2012, 176 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 42490 times:

He's a salesman. Of course his product is better, prettier, and smells better. Let's just wait until the A350-1000 is really ready to fly and see how his story will compare to reality.


Samsonite, I was way off!
User currently offlinepliersinsight From United States of America, joined May 2008, 494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 42458 times:

Quoting Navion (Reply 4):
I too found Leahy's comment to be a non-starter as a) it is obvious an aircraft designed almost 15 years after it's intended competition should have some performance improvements and b) Boeing is readying a response when they feel the time is right in the form of the 777X family. Maybe Leahy is taking a proactive approach (i.e. going on the offensive) as he may feel troubled by the interest of some of his customers in the 777X?

It also depends on what you are going to pay for your 777, depending on the discount, the performance increase of the 350 might not be worth the expense up front.


User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2116 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 42036 times:

Just reduce the 77W noise and I will be happy. Seriously though, didn't we have the same topic in Jan, then Feb, then March, then Apri, guess you can see where I am going. Sad thing is that we won't know the answer for a few more years, and Leahy will probably be retired.

User currently offlineCerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 729 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 42005 times:

JL is the gift that keeps giving.  He should be in the arms business, He provides endless ammunition for wars.
Seriously, sell A3510s first, talk later.


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1885 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 41886 times:

Dear Mr. Mouth:

Maybe 777-300ER cannot compete with A350-1000.
However, I assure you that 777-9X can.

Signed: the Mighty Triple Seven fan.



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6910 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 41813 times:

Leahy is right that the biggest problem with the A350-1000 is when an airline can get its grubby paws on it. With that being so far in the future, and uncertain at that, and with Boeing planning a response that also at this point is undefined, it is not surprising that customers are sitting on their hands right now. Once the 777X is launched, and the A359 is flying (giving better certainty as to how the A3510 will perform) then we will see how they will compare.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4739 posts, RR: 39
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 41806 times:
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Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 1):
But considering Airbus hasn't had any orders since 2008 that would seem to be a concern..
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 9):
Seriously, sell A3510s first, talk later.

You both miss the point that has been stated here on A-net over and over again, and which just recently was also confirmed by Boeing on their 777-RFP's. Availability is the biggest problem. As JL quotes:

Even though there have been no new orders for the A350-1000 since 2008, Leahy was bullish about its prospects. “Boeing only started talking about a new 777X after the A350-1000 came out,” he said. “Boeing knows the 777 won’t compete and that’s why they talk about folding wings and crazy things like that,” he said.

He said the most common question that he gets asked is “when can I get availability on the A350?”

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
With the 777X and A350-1000 EIS relatively close (and perhaps getting closer if the A350 program is delayed even more), once airlines are ready to start ordering A350-1000s, Boeing's RFP will more and more not be the 777-300ER, but instead the 777-8 and 777-9.

That is my expectation as well. So then we will see how good both new or renewed offerings are to the customers.

That the "old" B77W will loose against the A350-1000 is just about every thinkable way is logical and comes as no surprise. Boeing knew they would not stand a chance just as the A346 was overtaken by that same B77W. The A35J vs. the B777X is the next interesting contest.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8373 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 41674 times:
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John Leahy, Airbus' main salesman, an American who lives in France and doesn't speak French what an oxymoron. Could the world imagine Boeing having a German or French man selling their planes, the unions would have something to say about that. Such a person would have to speak English as it is the " linga franca " of aviation. Leahy a character of French proprtions.

User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2616 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 41550 times:
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Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 10):
Dear Mr. Mouth:

Maybe 777-300ER cannot compete with A350-1000.
However, I assure you that 777-9X can.

Signed: the Mighty Triple Seven fan.

I couldn't have put it better myself  

I tend to not pay any attention to anything Mr Leahy says. As Airbus' most prominent salesman, he's hardly going to say anything different, is he?



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 564 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 41467 times:

JL sold a lot of A330's because they are available when the 787 isn't or wasn't. I fail to see how this isn't the reverse.

User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 41213 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 1):
Of course the COO of Airbus is going to say the A350-1000 is better than the 777-300ER, they are barely going to say otherwise.

Of course it can't compete - its a paper airplane vs. a flying airplane.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8373 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 40874 times:
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Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 10):
Dear Mr. Mouth:

Maybe 777-300ER cannot compete with A350-1000.
However, I assure you that 777-9X

Signed: the Mighty Triple Seven fan.

This should read "Dear Mr. Leahy c/o Airbus Toulouse, France..."


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 40809 times:

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 2):
Lets, just wait until the A350 1000 hit the skies.

Clearly Leahy would prefer that customers order right now instead of waiting till A351 is flying and/or in revenue service with someone else.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Leahey's main problem now is that as the A350-1000's EIS is pushed farther and farther to the right, customers are buying 777-300ERs in the interim and that means less of them need an A350-1000 once slots become available.

His other main problem is that some important customers are bad-mouthing it in public.

Add that to:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 1):
After issues with new aircraft like the A380 and 787, with delays and manufacturing issues cropping up, it makes me wonder if airlines are getting cold feet about ordering aircraft that currently only exist on paper and have not yet been built.

and it's no surprise that Leahy is trying to create some interest in the product, even via pointing out his non-existing plane will outperform Boeing's existing plane while ignoring Boeing's next non-existing plane.

I suppose it's time for Randy to make some comments about his non-existing 787-9 beating up Leahy's non-existing A350 line?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 39982 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
John Leahy, Airbus' main salesman, an American who lives in France and doesn't speak French what an oxymoron.

On oxymoron is a rhetoric device. This is not what it means, and not how it is used. At all.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
Could the world imagine Boeing having a German or French man selling their planes, the unions would have something to say about that.

Something to truly be proud of.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 12):
That the "old" B77W will loose against the A350-1000 is just about every thinkable way is logical and comes as no surprise.

General consensus appears to be otherwise. From what is being voiced, the A35K will be better on missions up to 6000nm stage length. On longer flights, the 77W remains superior. Even with the new stretched design, the A35K will not be able to replace the 77Ws on all of its missions.

There are markets for both planes, the 77W and the A35K. Purchasing decisions will be dependent on a number of factors, as each operator has its own requirements. Neither plane is going to kill the other off.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 15):
JL sold a lot of A330's because they are available when the 787 isn't or wasn't. I fail to see how this isn't the reverse.

  

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 16):
Of course it can't compete - its a paper airplane vs. a flying airplane.

To keep you abreast with the development of the last 20 or so years: Airplanes are not designed on paper anymore. They use computer technology these days. These computers use data collected in real life experiences and apply them to said models. As a result, they produce fairly accurate estimates about a machine's real life performance.

This isn't as much of a knee-slapper as referring to the A350 as a 'paper plane', admittedly, but it helps gauging the credibility of such statements. It's obvious that Leahy will emphasize the upsides of his products and that he might even be inclined to embellish the truth a little bit. But that doesn't at all mean that his claims are unsubstantiated fairytales.

As much as many would probably like to think that..



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 636 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 39729 times:

Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 6):
He's a salesman. Of course his product is better, prettier, and smells better. Let's just wait until the A350-1000 is really ready to fly and see how his story will compare to reality.

It's getting funny to take Leahy's comments about his products and put it back on a conversation some years ahead, just to see how he's as ridiculous as arrogant.
The A350-1000 will be nothing more than a revamped A330 and I think Airbus is getting pretty embarrassed with that...



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlineebbuk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 39360 times:

It must be a public holiday in a lot of countries. The usual band of boeing boys are peppering this thread with their wisdoms.

JL is right and we all know it. Will it sell more? Will it hit its design targets? Will it fly on time? These are things we don't know


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2243 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 39101 times:

People fault the guy for doing his job. I take any marketers claims with a grain of salt because I am one of them. I know that it is his job to portray his product in as good a light as possible. Read between the lines and translate the marketing speak into English. In this case you can hear his boss or the Board of Directors saying, "John get out in front of this issue and start countering the lack of sales for the 350-1000, and start spinning like a top." You don't have to like the guy (I am not a fan), but at the same time read statements with a grain of salt, but don't hate the guy for doing his spin.

User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 611 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 39002 times:

Quoting something (Reply 19):

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 16):
Of course it can't compete - its a paper airplane vs. a flying airplane.

To keep you abreast with the development of the last 20 or so years: Airplanes are not designed on paper anymore. They use computer technology these days.


Call it a pixel airplane then.  



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlineneutronstar73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 506 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 38948 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 12):
He said the most common question that he gets asked is “when can I get availability on the A350?”

Well, Mr. Leahy's answer to that question should have been: "Well, I've just had an opening for several A350-1000s since I had one of my major customers CANCEL several of theirs, so show me the money!"

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 21):
It must be a public holiday in a lot of countries. The usual band of boeing boys are peppering this thread with their wisdoms.

Here we go....somehow I knew this would show up.  

[Edited 2012-05-28 08:56:18]

25 airmagnac : Well if the discussion would focus on explaining/demonstrating why the proposition "The Airbus A350-1000 will beat the Boeing 777-300ER on range and
26 SEPilot : As one of those Boeing boys, I have never doubted that the A3510 will beat the existing 77W on range and fuel burn per passenger. The question is how
27 Post contains links Revelation : Geez, this from someone without the stars and bars next to their name? You are giving some folks indigestion! It seems it's time to put this one out
28 iFlyLOTs : I'm sure they could print whats on the screen, making it a paper airplane.
29 Post contains images airmagnac : To be clear, I didn't have "Boeing Boys" in mind when I posted, as I think most of those Boys would be mature enough to discuss the merits of their f
30 Post contains images astuteman : Seems to have been lost in amongst the rush to stick the knife in somewhere..... The 773ER CAN compete on a combination of availability and performan
31 BLIKSEM : I fully agree with you .I am sure that Boeing wiil do their homework to ensure that their worldbeater remains just that. Dream on Leahy.
32 peanuts : Let's just look at the article this thread is supposedly based on: It's a crap article. Nothing substantial. Used car salesman talk. Not very becoming
33 cmf : What does nationality have to do with selling planes? Doesn't matter as long as he gets the customers to sign. I'm not a fan of Leahy's style but wha
34 SEPilot : One thing I have learned in my 35 years in industry is that having a superior product is only half the battle; and often is the easier half. The othe
35 peanuts : You are very correct. The salesman DOES make the difference. To paraphrase a cliche saying: JL could easily sell ice to an eskimo. So yes, he is good
36 glideslope : What a guy! Watch the Blood Pressure John. The 350-10 may never be built. It will be too expensive despite the crash of the Euro. He is trying to keep
37 airzim : One of the top salesman for years at Boeing was a Moroccan. Not sure your statement makes sense.
38 N14AZ : Which "crash"? Did I miss anything? Could you please explain how the EU is "assisting" EADS? You mean they calculate the discounts for EADS or what?
39 Post contains images boeingfever777 : Leah running his mouth... 77W - orders (605) its direct competition... a346 - orders (97) a350-1000 has what (62) orders since they started taking the
40 something : One can only hope that your distinguished analysis presented above is a product of inebriation as well..
41 Post contains images solnabo : How very true
42 blueshamu330s : In life, I've found that when people mock, they are normally on the back foot and know it. Time will tell if that applies in this instance. Rgds
43 vin2basketball : How many of those 77W orders are for delivery after the true EIS of the A350-1000? Answer... None.. The A350-1000 will be better than the 777-300ER i
44 abba : The situation is much like the 330.... And it is highly doubtful if any 777 ever will. No matter what Boeing does - save for a clean sheet. Remember:
45 AWACSooner : Ummm...Boeing also sold just as many (if not more) 76's and Triples to cover the gap in service, so I fail to see the point of your argument.
46 Post contains images Mortyman : The US has been broke for over 20 years ...
47 davs5032 : Again with this?!? Surely you must realize that your constant complaining about other members' phantom biases despite no logical basis whatsoever onl
48 mayor : Purely a figure of speech. Take it as such. And neither does he, although he has to act as though he knows. BTW, have they ever settled on the window
49 flylku : Now that would be a thread: "Leahy says 'Our stuff is junk and the 777-300ER is better than the A350-1000'"
50 brilondon : So Leahy should push the A350 to Greece, Italy, Spain..., to get the aircraft sold at discount may be able to get some frames in the air.
51 757gb : There seem to be a few big airlines out there that disagree with you...
52 MD2012 : So, when is the estimated EIS for the 350-1000 again? Very very impressive indeed, but just out of curiousity how many of those were due to compensat
53 Chimborazo : Mate, take a little stroll outside your own head sometime. A large proportion of French, German, [insert long-stablished European country here] peopl
54 Post contains links and images PM : "Fernandes confirmed the airline will do a come-back to Europe when the A350-1000 arrives in 2015. “Hopefully it is not delayed,” he said." http:/
55 AirbusA6 : The usual sales talk, though I suspect Airbus are slightly worried about the A350-1000 variant, which has been revised once already and now has lost s
56 poLot : I'm guessing they meant the A359, because if Tony switched to the A350-1000 while expecting an 2015 EIS he is going to be very disappointed.
57 Post contains images PM : That was part of why I found it interesting!
58 Post contains images airproxx : Am I? Gotta love this one! I think while Boeing is selling planes, Airbus (Leahy) is selling more and more PR and useless (bad?) policy.
59 jfk777 : There is absolutely nothing wrong German or French people selling a Boeing plane. In the English speaking world it widely accepted, as most English s
60 Post contains images airproxx : Well, as very very very far as I am from considering myself a subject matter "expert", you have to admit that the A350 genesis comes from a "enhanced
61 col : How can it be that Leahy, who is a drunk ranter, does not speak French, talks out of his a$$ and all the other personal issues he has, has made Airbus
62 Post contains images lightsaber : But there are proven technologies that will make next generation aircraft more efficient. The reality is Boeing must develop the 777X to stay competi
63 Post contains images AngMoh : The CEO of Renault is Brazilian. Does that count?
64 aerokiwi : I'm not sure you can disagree with Leahy here - but, as others have noted, the comparison wont really between the 77W and 351, but the 77X and the 351
65 boeingfever777 : Called a figure of speech, take it as that... Most your reply's are critical towards other members anyways. (358) 777s left to be built and delivered
66 N14AZ : Actually yes: grew up in Rüsselsheim, the City of Opel, which has an US American CEO since decades.
67 Post contains images JAAlbert : Hear, Hear! I'm all for a quieter 777 cabin. I kinda like John Leahy . . .
68 col : Wow, steady there trigger, Boeing ain't gonna be cutting production to support your argument. Try production being at 60+, then do the maths. Now the
69 Post contains links ebbuk : At least one forward thinker is sticking to the 350-1000 http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...cks-with-a350-1000-for-now-371833/ JL is on track.
70 boeingfever777 : Boeing O/D for delivered 77W. 2011 - 52 2010 - 40 2009 - 52 total = 144 3yr average = 48 frames (358) outstanding 777 orders to be built and of those
71 rheinwaldner : Do you really think that the A351 will turn out worse than the 77W? Think again! I tell you it is funny, how quickly people reach emergency mode bar
72 Irishpower : I've been in sales my whole life and one of the basic rules of selling is --If your competitors are spending a lot of time and energy talking about yo
73 Post contains images Ronaldo747 : In reverse: A350-1000 Cannot Compete With 777-9X
74 Post contains images col : You are using historical data. 777 is running at 7/month and will go to 8.3/month by early 2013. You can use the 77% split of output being the W vers
75 N5716B : This turn of phrase always makes me nervous.
76 SEPilot : The discussion of how many 77W's that are on order will be delivered after the A3510 flies is overlooking two points. One is that 77W orders are still
77 Post contains images Cerecl : Unlikely, given that I have argued for exactly the same point in the recent A350-1000 thread. I have never understood the need to go one-up on your c
78 jfk777 : Carlos Ghosn of Lebanesse decent which was a French colony, so he is colonial French. His family some how ended up in Brazil. Opel has been GM's gerr
79 sweair : No One knows how good the 8X and the 9X will be, its not defined yet, just ideas. If B cant get the 8 and 9X to what they want, what will they do then
80 vin2basketball : True EIS of 350-1000 DNE 2017, the most likely timeline is mid 2018 or into 2019
81 Revelation : I think it's important to point out that the 777X is NOT launched. Indeed Boeing is talking about such a product because it is expected that the A350
82 KC135TopBoom : I agree, it should read "if the A-3510 hits the skies". Boeing has done a few PIPs to the B-777 in the last 10 years, and will continue to do more of
83 Post contains images col : Maybe the product helped, but when you look at the die hard/only Boeing operators who went to Airbus, then you have to have a good strategy to take s
84 Post contains links CXB77L : That's not what I'm reading. From the article: Which 777 won't compete? If he's referring to any 777 variant including future derivatives, he's dead
85 Post contains links and images Revelation : I don't think they'd be talking so much about it if they didn't have a pretty good idea that they will get to where they need to be. For instance: ht
86 cmf : Why is mid 2018 or into 2019 most likely? What information do you have that the OEM does not have access to? It is not as they count their numbers an
87 Revelation : To use your own line, what information do you have that the OEM does not have access to? From my link above: Seems to me we're at or beyond beyond So
88 Post contains images EPA001 : Though I agree with you on this one, at the time the first generation A350, which had comparable changes to the the predecessor model A330, was deeme
89 sweair : I think the 777-8X could be the only good model and the 9 a dog. Sort of like the 739ER being a real dog in its family.
90 Roseflyer : The commenting of A350-1000 vs 777-300ER does not surprise me. It really sounds like they will have a good plane, but it takes time to develop and Le
91 PlanesNTrains : I have to ask, then: Why did you post it if it is irrelevant and pointless? Just curious... He is referring to the current 777, implying that it's in
92 frmrCapCadet : Some differences IIRC from conventional wisdom on this site: Boeing aggressively marketed the 787, along with an even more aggressive time schedule,
93 Post contains images cmf : Where did I claim to have more than Boeing The article calls 77X "conceptual specifications". That means trying to figure out what ideas may have pot
94 Stitch : Bernstein Research is still convinced the A350-900 will EIS in 2015, though they now believe it will be early 2015 as opposed to late 2015. So if you
95 Post contains images jreuschl : Remember also, 4 engines are safer than 2. The A340 orders keep rolling in...
96 rotating14 : I think some of us here are failing to see what them stem of his argument is. He, JL, is claiming the A350-k will be better than the B773-er, which is
97 KC135TopBoom : Leahy wouldn't even be mentioning this subject if he were confident in the A-3510. He has not sold one since 2008, and of the 75 originally ordered, 1
98 Roseflyer : Can you elaborate on why the A3510 is looking like the A345/6? The A345/6 were heavier than their competition, burned more fuel, had higher maintenan
99 col : Great post, take the rest of the day off. Oh dear, this is what we are down to now on this topic.
100 RickNRoll : Using that logic, there is a good chance a major change like the 77X will be late as well. In the meantime, the A320 will have the new sharklet, whic
101 PlanesNTrains : Well, and to add to that, the A351 is competing with an immensely popular 359 and a decent 358 for production space. I don't think Airbus needs to ha
102 frigatebird : Airbus expects first flight of the A350 now to be "towards the end of first half 2013". Without further delays, I personally expect EIS to be Q3 2014
103 rotating14 : Using your logic how can something that is still a concept be late?? Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the new 777 variants (8x &9x) going to co
104 Post contains images col : As long as the flight is as smooth and quiet as a 340, then they can all be at risk. Any chance to move on
105 flipdewaf : Because that would be logic and that isn't to be used when tehre is a debate which involves JL. Please explain in what way it is looking like that? i
106 rheinwaldner : The A320 will be the first passenger aircraft that will be produced for 30 years without upgrade (except the PC-6 maybe). The A320 will not be harder
107 Revelation : Come now, you did notice that the A345/6 has twice as many engines as the 777X, didn't you? It's pretty hard to make up from that kind of starting po
108 Post contains links frigatebird : I'm not talking about the engines. In fact, there is where the 777X could have an advantage on the A35J (although I believe Boeing should go with the
109 PlanesNTrains : I never said you "shouldn't" post it. I asked "why" you posted it, seeing as you felt it was irrelevent and pointless information. It was largely rhe
110 dynkrisolo : You forgot about the engine upgrades from V2500-A1 to V2500-A5 and CFM56-5A to CFM56-5B. The -A5 and -5B powered A320s are essentially of the same vi
111 Roseflyer : That’s exactly the problem that Leahy has. He’s got great airplanes coming, but airlines have to wait 8+ years for them. The only airplanes he’
112 Cruiser : Airlines who cannot afford to be left behind...that is who! You need to get in line at some point, or find a leasing company who has already done it.
113 Post contains images Revelation : Presumably all the airlines who do not hold orders for planes 7.9 years in the future and realize that there is a duopoly so it's better to get into
114 Post contains images astuteman : although of course the very lengths of the backlogs causing the issue mean that a year of low sales isn't really an "issue". If the competition has a
115 ebbuk : I don't see Boeing having anything different to airbus. According to them they've orders in the 1000s for the MAX (sorry some are commitments but wor
116 RickNRoll : The current A320 will be getting the sharklets, which will give it a significant performance improvement.
117 Roseflyer : I agree it is not an issue. However I think it explains why he is insulting the competition. He doesn't have anything to sell, so he's at least telli
118 Post contains links Revelation : I certainly sympathize with where you're coming from, but it's pretty early to get that engaged on the topic WRT 777-9X till Boeing has worked throug
119 davs5032 : I see few similarities between the 77X stretch and what Airbus did with the A345/6, and there are many reasons why. 1. The -346 was not simply a stre
120 ebbuk : Was/is the NG a double stretch of a stretch, like the proposed 77x? I genuinely am ignorant to the specifics of Boeing's 737. I'm no technical expert
121 Roseflyer : The 737NG was a new wing, new engine, stretch and increase in MTOW from the 733, which was a stretch, new engine and MTOW increase from the 732. The
122 SEPilot : As I recall it the A345/6 entered service well before the 77W; the 77W was projected to best the A346 by a small margin, and ended up beating it by a
123 Post contains images davs5032 : You seem to have misunderstood my post. Plus, I don't think a 2.6 "inches" stretch would be in their best interests. -I didn't say the 779 was gettin
124 Post contains images ebbuk : @Davs5032 reply123. Yes sorry I meant metres not inches. Late at night on the iPhone There is nothing to refute vis a vis the 345/6. Great products. I
125 Post contains images aerokiwi : Nice try... Existing holes in product line-up by manufacturer: Airbus - 200-250 seats, 300-480/500 seats Boeing - 450 seats plus Yar, Boeing's in all
126 sweair : With no 77L on the new frames, what will become of the 777F? I cant imagine they want to give up their only advantage they will have over A350? The 74
127 CXB77L : The 777-8LX is essentially a 77L replacement, and will most likely form the basis for the new 777F. I'm sure a new 777F will be in the pipeline some
128 sweair : But this frame will have higher weight and less thrust? Maybe its good for passengers but freight?
129 CXB77L : We don't know if it'll weigh more than the 777F yet. Even if it does, weight is only a problem if it doesn't translate to better revenue potential. T
130 flipdewaf : (bold added by me) I think this is going to be the difficult part of the 77X, particularly with the big new wing that is proposed. Many bending of tr
131 CXB77L : As I understand it, a big part of that will come from having to carry less fuel due to improved aerodynamics and reduced fuel burn of the new engines
132 ebbuk : Old bean, I spoke of availability. We know Boeing's showroom is crammed full of product. They just can't build them quick enough for some product, fo
133 strfyr51 : John Laehy is a consumate Saleman! But THIS time Airbis is behind the 8 Ball. And John Might be feeling the Heat! Y'Think?
134 RickNRoll : Virtually no one is buying it. The A321 Can seat over 200, the A330-200 seats 250 and under. It's a pretty minor gap, considering that if it was that
135 flipdewaf : Oh yeah! I forgot about that one. Does anyone know what the civilian backlog is like on the 767? Fred
136 BlueSky1976 : That is not entirely correct. 77L was being developed from the get-go as a counterpart to the 77W. However, due to Asian crisis, it was put on the sh
137 frigatebird : I was referring to the risk of becoming another A345/6. And no, I don't see the A350-1000 as that much of a high risk programme. It will EIS 3 years
138 Revelation : Der Google says that at the time the order for FedEx was placed last October, the backlog was 44 frames which would have run out in 2013, but the Fed
139 SEPilot : OK, I didn't realize that, but it makes sense. Since most of the work for the 777NG was on the wing (including engines) it makes sense to apply it to
140 Stitch : 21 for the 767-300ER and 42 for the 767-300F.
141 sweair : I don't think Boeing can make the already stretched 77W a good frame with yet another stretch. Going beyond design points really. They should leave it
142 SEPilot : This cannot be determined without a thorough knowledge of the structure. The most important feature is the length to the diameter ratio, and this wil
143 davs5032 : This is a valid concern, and I'm sure Boeing has that in mind, presumably why they limited the (proposed) stretch to such a small one. Based on appea
144 Post contains images astuteman : Of all the things being discussed for the 777X, "magicking" some 4" on the interior cross-section is the single one that I have a fair bit of sceptic
145 sweair : Why not grow the 200 and leave the 300 as it is, just trim weight and stretch internal width, new wing and engines. The 300ER a few thousand pounds li
146 Post contains images EPA001 : That is also the design feature which is most interesting to me. Let's wait and see how they think they can manage, and then let's wait and see if it
147 SEPilot : I agree with this, but I also agree that Boeing would not be proposing this without a very good idea of exactly how they are going to accomplish it.
148 cmf : I can't claim to have the knowledge about what Boeing has "stuffed" on the sides of the passenger cabin but have understood, and can certainly be wro
149 sweair : the 787 does have thinner walls then the 777, maybe insolation has developed some from the 90´s? Also the 777X will have far quieter engines, like th
150 mffoda : The 777 has a fuselage width of 20'4" and cabin width 19'3" = 13" The 737 has a fuselage width of 12'4" and cabin width 11'7" = 9" The 777 has 4 more
151 sweair : I think its the same on the 787/A380 and A350. Thinner walls on the modern frames, I have no doubt its doable, I am more sceptical of the frame stret
152 frmrCapCadet : IIRC the 777 has a full round body. And it has been mentioned that some inefficiency factors with all that useless space above the passenger compartme
153 OldAeroGuy : Very little is in the side walls except for the A/C risers. You mean the space where most of the Systems runs and the Crew Rests are located? It's ac
154 sweair : the 777X will push the Y3 back at least another 10 years? But what if the 777X is a poor seller, what might Boeing do then? Seeing how the 737 has los
155 Roseflyer : If the space between the sidewall and skin is reduced, the consequence is redesigning the frames. The frames likely go up in weight because they are
156 frmrCapCadet : Thanks for the reply. I meant to put 'useless space' inside of quotes.[Edited 2012-06-01 13:58:47]
157 davs5032 : The 777 is almost certain to lose market share, as it's starting @ such a high mark, it will inevitably give up some ground, as a competing product t
158 strfyr51 : Insulation Wiring Cargo fire protection wiring and Plumbing Potable Water Plumbing, Air conditioning Risers and emergency lighting wiringthe open are
159 Post contains links and images ferpe : This picture shows the aircond piping in question, the light grey snakenests in the fuselage crown distributes the air which is being feed from big pi
160 sweair : Many here complain about the 10 across on the 747, is it really worse than 10 across on the 777? As it should have a wider cabin?
161 packsonflight : Actually insulation for sound is the name of the game now, and for the new 777 Boeing has to work seriously on the cabin noise. The walls on the A380
162 SEPilot : It is a question of priorities; at this point capacity is more important than quietness. The A380 was started from a clean sheet; they were able to e
163 davs5032 : I disagree, and this would be contrary to what Boeing has claimed and many knowledgeable posters on here have adopted as being feasible. I think the
164 poLot : Not to mention I don't think Boeing has ever said they hope the 777X has similar sound levels to the A380 (which also greatly benefits from having the
165 MD2012 : What would adding 4" do? Will it allow a more comfortable 10 Y seating. I am sort of skeptical about that.
166 XT6Wagon : They don't really need 4" across the whole fuselage, the issue is that the 777 is a bit narrow for 10Y at shoulder level. EK for example would really
167 Roseflyer : No it is not. Noise insulation is good but insulation blankets for fire protection is the name of the game. Temperature is important to reduce load o
168 JoeCanuck : I've done plenty of flying on both 330's and 777's and in my opinion, the only place where any noise difference in an issue is a.net. I think the nois
169 RayChuang : I think what is killing A350-1000 prospects is the fact Boeing managed to increase the range of the 77W from 7180 to nearly 7900 nm (still air)--and t
170 packsonflight : it is natural that manufactures comply with certification requirements, and complying is a straight engineering task. pax have bin exposed to high no
171 JoeCanuck : I'm willing to bet that it isn't preventing the seats from being filled. They are no doubt also complaining about the difference in seat room between
172 Cerecl : These 77W need replacing too eventually. If A350-1000's fuel burn comes in as promised by Airbus, it is an absolute no-brainer.[Edited 2012-06-02 21:
173 Post contains links and images rheinwaldner : But the isolation in one case has to shield the noise from two of these: View Large View MediumPhoto © Andrei Nesvetaev and in the second case the n
174 OldAeroGuy : Also depends on the takeoff weight and the wing area.
175 astuteman : If you replace "A350-1000" in that sentence with "A340-600", it makes perfect sense. As it is written I can see no logic in it at all, as the A350-10
176 sweair : Well maybe some current 77W customers would prefer to get an updated 777? Look at me, I have had 7 Audis in a row, sure BMW has a better model in the
177 Roseflyer : Yes there are limitations imposed by a longer fuselage. Rotation angle is one of the big issues that has to be dealt with but there are ways as I men
178 PW100 : One would expect that the (much) bigger wingspan and wingarea would help reduce rotation angle, or increase lift-off weight at a given rotation angle
179 davs5032 : We can debate all we want as to why the 777 has more isolation, but even if we assume that it's used or required for cabin noise-prevention purposes,
180 Post contains links LAXDESI : As per my estimates, B777-9X should end up with 4% higher wingloading than A350-1000. Furthermore, A350-1000 has 8% more powerful engines normalised
181 Post contains images davs5032 : Thank you! FYI, you've listed the A350 @ $309 mil, while wiki has it @ $320 mil...not sure if you've switched the two around or if you've just got a
182 JoeCanuck : People want cheap flights AND the right to complain about the sacrifices they are making by voluntarily buying the cheapest flight. Airlines will onl
183 CXB77L : Indeed, there's no pleasing some people. The cabin noise issue is overblown. From my experience, the current 77W is significantly quieter than the 74
184 packsonflight : Of course the seats are being filled, but as an airline, do you want two or one complaint per pax? I only want Boeing to address the problem, and do
185 col : The 77W is very economical and the plane the airlines want. It is the gift that keeps giving. But I have to disagree on the noise. In terms of long ha
186 Cerecl : Sure, but I wonder how much commonality the 777X is going to have with 77W. Also I doubt this is going to be a big factor in fleet planning of most a
187 sweair : However some here whine about anything, even 9 across is bad in a 777, the much better 2-4-2 in A330 being superior. Noise and layout are the most com
188 Post contains images EPA001 : In my book that makes for a difference of 24 cm, or 9,4 inches. So that makes for a difference of almost 1 inch per seat. That is most definitely not
189 Post contains images CXB77L : Whoops. You're right. I'm terrible at mathematics But for a new 777X with a 4 inch wider cabin, the difference will be 5.4 inches. Using the same sea
190 abba : as if the 747 is pleasant to fly in the first round.....
191 Post contains images EPA001 : Don't worry, my mathematics are sometimes also all over the place. . This I can fully agree with. And that would probably be more then acceptable for
192 N14AZ : Humm. I cannot think of any stretch of an existing airliner that was done in in front of the MLG only. I cannot prove it but I would think it's impos
193 sweair : I have flown it a lot of flights and I have never felt any discomfort at all. What makes you say that?
194 Post contains images Roseflyer : Maybe because an economy seat is never comfortable regardless of any airline or airplane you fly - only exception might be cuddle class on Air New Ze
195 SEPilot : This cannot be done unless the engines (or something else heavy) gets moved back in order to keep the CG in the same place relative to the wing. Norm
196 qualitydr : That's because he won't get asked about any in-production Airbii, and he for sure won't get asked about Boeing availability. Which leaves exactly one
197 tsugambler : Maybe the MD-90? It's not exactly a stretch, but it's not exactly a new aircraft, either. I think that the increased length over the MD-80 was all in
198 SEPilot : Highly likely. The point is the CG must stay in the same place on the wing. If the engines get heavier, especially with rear mounted engines, weight
199 Post contains images CXB77L : How comfortable an aircraft is depends more on the airline's configuration than the aircraft itself. The dimensions of the 777X should be large enoug
200 abba : I have been on it a few times as well (more than I can count) - it is far too cramped. Give me anything else. It even beats a 777 with 10 abreast (wh
201 cmf : Boeing already had to apply a few tricks to make the 77W work. It may be easy or very expensive to add those 1.35m.
202 neutrino : If that's your idea of a flying nightmare, you can't even begin to imagine anything remotely close to its defination. Ever been packed into the hold
203 sweair : At what point would it be better to go wider than longer for an airframe? Say you could do a wider frame and shorter frame with as many seats? Imagine
204 Post contains images astuteman : Imagine an 18-across capable tube shorter than the current 77W..... Might need more than two engines though. (It might already exist, too ) Being ser
205 abba : And you paid for it?
206 Revelation : Yes, that has been quoted as a disadvantage of rear mounted engines. Over time, engines have gotten heavier as they have gotten more efficient (more
207 Post contains images sweair : Hey, that´s nothing a BWB would be like 25 across I would like to go on such an aircraft, I can live without windows, it should have a lot more dead
208 Post contains images neutrino : Yes; with extreme discomfort including sore ar**, cramped leg muscles, backaches, the works. Now, that is truely a flying nightmare but I survived to
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