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Air Canada 777 Uncontained Engine Failure?  
User currently offlinePlainplane From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 837 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 39019 times:

CNN is reporting that Air Canada flight 1, a 777, made an emergency landing back in Toronto after an engine failure. There are reports that debris from the engine has smashed into the ground causing damage to cars and buildings and an investigation has been launched.

Here is a news story.

95 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGRIVely From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 38929 times:

Any information on the engine maker?

User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 38894 times:

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 1):
Any information on the engine maker?


All B77Ws and 77Ls are equipped with GE90s. AC has the -115 (BL) on the Ws and the -110s on the -200LRs.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlinedeclarets From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2011, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 38884 times:

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 1):

They have GE Engines


User currently offlinephilipkk From Canada, joined Sep 2006, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 38728 times:

There are a few pics and a video report
http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20120528/051812_plane_debris/20120528/?hub=CP24Home


User currently offlinencfc99 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 738 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 38598 times:

Have there been previous uncontained failures of GE90'S?

User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 38399 times:

According to AC's website, AC001 is now scheduled to arrive at NRT 0536 (May 29).

Quoting philipkk (Reply 4):
There are a few pics and a video report
http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local...4Home

I hope they hand those pieces over to the (C)TSB .

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineScooter01 From Norway, joined Nov 2006, 1199 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 37641 times:
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This thread was started earlier:
Cyyz Runway 23 Shutdown (by kl692 May 28 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Scooter01



"We all have a girl and her name is nostalgia" - Hemingway
User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3499 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 37358 times:

The top piece in the photo from the CP24 website looks like a turbine blade from one of the lower stages of the engine. The bluish tinge leads me to believe it was in a high-temp area, much like the internal combustion stages.

http://geaviationservicesolutions.com/2011/01/lib/images/web/article5-image1-full.jpg



Support the beer and soda can industry, recycle old airplanes!
User currently offlineAirCanada787 From Canada, joined Nov 2010, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 37276 times:

An updated story from CBC. The passengers will overnight in Toronto and depart on a new flight tomorrow.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...nto-pearson-emergency-landing.html



The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 37202 times:

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 8):
The top piece in the photo from the CP24 website looks like a turbine blade from one of the lower stages of the engine. The bluish tinge leads me to believe it was in a high-temp area, much like the internal combustion stages.

My initial impression was a turbine blade or blades, likely from the HP turbine, got shed and exited the back end. GE90s I believe have passed the goose test.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinevirgin747 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 37162 times:

I guess the question is how long is AC going to be down an Airplane (not to mention a valuable one) till GE can come down and scratch their heads, then finally decide on sending down a new engine to put on. Then do the actual act of replacing said engine. From experience, I can tell you being down an airplane like that is a pain in the you know what...

User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7067 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 37165 times:

To us non-techies, uncontained failure does that mean not contained within the engine or a puncture of the fuselage?

User currently onlinekl692 From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 37062 times:

Just got back from the airport, I have video of the A/C taxing to gate on Youtube. not the greatest video I have done but it is something. the first 10 sec is not that great

http://youtu.be/NIoYzZdYp40

[Edited 2012-05-28 17:36:58]


A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 396 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 36829 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 12):
To us non-techies, uncontained failure does that mean not contained within the engine or a puncture of the fuselage?

My understanding has always been that an uncontained failure would describe a situation in which parts exited the engine by puncturing through the engine case or containment ring. True uncontained failures are rare. I suspect when the analysis is done, this AC incident will be declared a contained failure, as the parts most likely exited the tailpipe.


User currently offlineYOWVIEWER From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 36812 times:

Just curious, a Toronto to Narita 777 would have a full fuel load on board and this occurred just after takeoff . How would they get it back down on the ground so quickly without blowing some tires ?

User currently offlineANM604 From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 36770 times:

Great work by the flight crew bringing her back in one piece!

Quoting virgin747 (Reply 11):
I guess the question is how long is AC going to be down an Airplane (not to mention a valuable one)

This is about the worst thing that could happen to AC right now, the entire fleet but especially the 777's are running to the wall as it is. This is probably going to have a ripple effect down the line, and depending on how long it's out for there might be some immediate down gauges on some flights. Fingers crossed it is just the engine, and GE/AC can get a new one in ASAP. Thankfully they got it back to YYZ, and not some small airport elsewhere.

Quoting par13del (Reply 12):
Uncontained failure does that mean not contained within the engine or a puncture of the fuselage?

It means that pieces have exited the engines, but it does not necessarily mean the fuselage/wings have been punctured by the expelled debris.


User currently onlinekl692 From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 36671 times:

Quoting YOWVIEWER (Reply 15):
Just curious, a Toronto to Narita 777 would have a full fuel load on board and this occurred just after takeoff . How would they get it back down on the ground so quickly without blowing some tires ?

They did a fuel dump, the A/C must have return after an hour or so.



A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
User currently offlinetraindoc From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 36527 times:

To kl692,,

Great video in real time! Quite an entourage of emergency vehicles close behind as the A/C taxis to the terminal. Both engine nacelles look intact which favors a contained failure. But we need to see the engines and fuselage close up before coming to a more definitive conclusion.

This is not the first 777 to have engine failure on/after take off. Several years ago, CO 9, EWR to NRT had an engine failure on take off and had to do an emergency return. This was a contained failure.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12903 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 36473 times:
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Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 8):
The bluish tinge leads me to believe it was in a high-temp area, much like the internal combustion stages.
Quoting B757forever (Reply 14):
My understanding has always been that an uncontained failure would describe a situation in which parts exited the engine by puncturing through the engine case or containment ring.

   Any parts that go out the nozzles are a 'contained failure.'

Quoting virgin747 (Reply 11):
I guess the question is how long is AC going to be down an Airplane (not to mention a valuable one) till GE can come down and scratch their heads, then finally decide on sending down a new engine to put on.

I doubt there will be a delay. The engine should already be on its way (if not half way to on the wing) with a new nacelle. The will need to pull fuel filters and sample aircraft fuel. The rest will be pulled and inspected off aircraft. The issue is the holiday weekend. Unless aircraft structure was damaged, the aircraft should fly within a week. The engine? It will be torn apart and studied in detail for a long time. Someone owes AC a new engine... even if its AC itself.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13040 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 35959 times:

Of course one has to wonder how this major failure happened. Could bird ingestion be a factor or is this some mx or original part flaw that was missed? I also wonder if their is some flaw in this GE engine series as there has been several major engine failures of them used on 777's.

Just be glad no one was injured or killed, just some replaceable damage, most likely covered by insurance.


User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 35877 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
Any parts that go out the nozzles are a 'contained failure.'

Appreciate the clarification..

Quoting kl692 (Reply 13):
Just got back from the airport, I have video of the A/C taxing to gate on Youtube. not the greatest video I have done but it is something. the first 10 sec is not that great

http://youtu.be/NIoYzZdYp40

Thanks for posting this!

KrisYYZ


User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 35709 times:

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
This is about the worst thing that could happen to AC right now, the entire fleet but especially the 777's are running to the wall as it is. This is probably going to have a ripple effect down the line, and depending on how long it's out for there might be some immediate down gauges on some flights. Fingers crossed it is just the engine, and GE/AC can get a new one in ASAP. Thankfully they got it back to YYZ, and not some small airport elsewhere.

If not a single 777 is available and C-FITW is non-operational for an extended period, does AC have any 763s to take over 001 for a while? Or would they rather pull a 777 from somewhere else? YYZ-NRT was operated by a 763 prior to the T7s, no?

KrisYYZ


User currently offlinejporterfi From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 438 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 34319 times:

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
This is about the worst thing that could happen to AC right now, the entire fleet but especially the 777's are running to the wall as it is.

Indeed it is. I was just discussing it on this thread: Air Canada Oddball Heathrow Movements

I hope this doesn't cause any more delayed flights like the mess at Heathrow!


User currently offlinethreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 34134 times:

Quoting philipkk (Reply 4):
There are a few pics and a video report
http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local...4Home

Call off the TSB, I think the CP24 reporter at the scene has solved the cause of the incident. After picking up and smelling one of the pieces that fell from the aircraft, she commented that "it smells like gasoline". Of course we know that that will likely cause less than optimal performance on most GE90 engines.
Mind you, the pieces did land in and around a PetroCan gas station, so maybe that has something to do with it. It couldn't possibly be that our intrepid reporter doesn't know the difference between the smells of gasoline, kerosene smells or any one of the combustible fluids in aircraft engines.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
25 Newark727 : How many big GE90 failures have occurred in the past? Any on the GE90-110 that the B777-200LR/-300ER use?
26 Viscount724 : AC had 2 77Ws divert to Alaska on flights to Asia (one to Fairbanks in 2008 and one to Anchorage in 2009). Both required an engine change and the eng
27 connies4ever : Based on previous AC experience with T7engine failures (2) 1-2 weeks will likely be the service outage for this a/c. I'd err towards a shorter time s
28 cargolex : If it's really dire, there is always the short term ACMI solution, which several carriers would be happy to provide, though likely only Atlas or Omni
29 JAAlbert : Did they also have to truck in equipment needed to change the engine? I can't imagine you can simply hang a GE-90 engine from a chain and drop it int
30 lightsaber : Thank you. However, due to the holiday weekend (many Americans take this week off from work), I think the issue will be getting people out to inspect
31 spotter : A/C 733 is currently under going a #2 engine change. Looks like the LPT let go and there is quite a bit of damage. Aircraft will most likely be out of
32 QANTAS747-438 : I'm not familiar with ACs 777 ops... what is going on to cause the fleet to be running thin?
33 BoeingVista : What are you talking about? The aircraft landed safely with no injuries. If AC were picking bits of airframe out of a carpark I would agree with you
34 ANM604 : At the moment, no not really. 767 fleet is down a frame from last year, and flying has slightly increased. At this point though, 763's are about the
35 cv990coronado : Does this have any effect on AC's ETOPs rating for their 777's?
36 ANM604 : Err, if you had read the next part of the sentence, and the quote, it probably would have become evident what I was talking about. In case it still d
37 Molykote : Not to nit pick, but it looks like you've shown a compressor in your photo. Granted, most people would see a liberated blade (or blades) and be unlik
38 Post contains links and images flightsimboy : I am usually near the fence taking pics, but due to the intense heat today was under the shade of the trees across the road. Here is a video I took, s
39 jporterfi : I don't mean to sound like a noob, but how could you tell that it was a compressor and not a turbine blade?
40 flightsimboy : See the flightaware map. It says it returned in 51 minutes.
41 connies4ever : Doesn't seem to be any nacelle damage, so everything went out the tube, I suppose. They simply don't have enough of them. AC have traditionally been
42 Post contains links 4tet : http://www.cp24.com/tl/photo.html?pn...20on%20Monday,%20May%2028,%202012. Seeing this photo, it's normal that those parts are that 'rusted' or burnt?
43 Post contains images s5daw : "It was hot and it smells like gasoline". Well, probably something you should touch with your bare hands and sniff then, isn't it?
44 N5716B : Oh blessed mercy, it's WONDERFUL to see that our brethren to the north have such staunch, eagle-eyed (and nosed, it appears) reporters presenting us
45 Post contains links transaeroyyz : http://www.airliners.net/photo/1134244/L/ This is what it probably looked like, quite concerning that this is still happening years later!
46 United_fan : Wasn't it a MH 777 taking off from ZRH a few years ago,too? I remember a picture of the engine spewing parts out of it.
47 kl692 : Someone posted on youtube about the A/C being back in service already "The aircraft was repaired and is now flying Sydney to Hong kong and now one was
48 strangr : I'd say incorrect, It would be a decent haul to replace that and have the transport Canada board do their investigations (limited) in that amount of t
49 Tristarsteve : But they are all Trent engines. But if it was a simple engine failure, and at a main base with an engine and guys available, then it could be ready b
50 Post contains links imiakhtar : Firstly, in the incident pic you linked, the engine was not a GE-90 but a RR Trent 800. Secondly, the MH incident had nothing to do with the RR engin
51 Tristarsteve : Correct. There was some collateral damage to the jet pipe, but it was caused by the failure of the Boeing D Duct. And on the MH D Duct., I called out
52 Post contains images 777 : Looking at the Avherald website it seems that the a/c involved is C-FITW.... it's quite funny to note that, excluding the last letter, this is definit
53 Post contains images kl692 : Any how for those that haven't seen any pic yet, Here is one I snap as I was busy recording .
54 Post contains links and images NorthStarDC4M : AC's 1st 3 77Ws are in the same registration series... 1st was C-FITL, the 2nd is worse I would say ... C-FITU: View Large View MediumPhoto © Allen
55 imiakhtar : I find that quite surprising considering the incident at ARN happened more than a year after the FAA issue an AD. Have there been any service bulleti
56 lightsaber : After the filters are pulled, fuel sampled, software logs dowloaded, etc. That ends up taking a few days. This is standard for an engine failure as t
57 richierich : Excuse my ignorance, and I know AC doesn't have many B777s in their fleet, but wouldn't they have access to a spare engine somewhere? For this very r
58 JAGflyer : Is it possible to take the 777s off the non-essential routes like LHR and FRA (replacing them with 767s and A330s) in order to deploy them on the Asia
59 Pelle : What was the registration of the 777 that experienced this engine failure?
60 Post contains images CALTECH : A uncontained failure would consist of parts(which usually are the rotating parts) of the engine which come through the Fan or Engine case. Going out
61 rcair1 : They don't test with geese - but with smaller birds. If items shed out the back - it is contained. But - as is noted, we don't have data yet. Yes. Ye
62 Post contains images ANM604 : I'm sure if they needed them bad enough, some could be found. Well if it's only a short term thing, then they probably wouldn't bother with the XM ca
63 Tristarsteve : Either some of you know a lot more about this than you are saying, or you are making it up. An engine has failed, it will be changed. If no other dam
64 Post contains links HNLPointShoot : I may be the only person on this site who cares about this, but Japanese voice actress Yuu Asakawa was on this flight, returning to Japan after attend
65 krisyyz : Off topic, but do you know if the 3 non-xm'd 763 are staying for a while? I have friends going to BCN who are very disappointed about not getting IFE
66 connies4ever : I'd say these 3 are bound for the LCC, which is coming whether some embrace it or not.
67 bartonsayswhat : Looks like 733 is planned for AC001/31MAY, so back in the air Thursday afternoon.[Edited 2012-05-29 15:55:02]
68 Viscount724 : News items at the time said the necessary equipment for the engine change was shipped with the engine.
69 longhauler : The plan for the LWC, (it will NOT be a LCC), is for even more seats in the B763. There is talk of 2x4x2 in Y, and a Y+ of 2x2x2. In other words, "yo
70 krisyyz : Thanks for the info! Not sure if AC is planning long-haul LCC, but by the sounds of it BCN would make a good LCC destination. In the B77L thread, som
71 abnormal : I thought FADEC would never ever shut down an engine. Crew have to do it themselves regardless of engine condition.
72 CALTECH : Besides the spare engine, another engine dolly and a set of hoist or some other engine lifting tools. If it's like most engine changes, have to take
73 lnglive1011yyz : When you talk about a failure like this, and add it up with all the other 'crap' going on at AC right now, and combine it with the comment I found on
74 Post contains links DocLightning : From the blade, you can tell because turbine blade will show signs of very high temps (once it's been used), the compressor blades won't. But from th
75 lightsaber : Yes. But where? When KLM had a GE-90-115 fail, their one spare was in AMS when the plane was in South Africa. With AC's small (and diverse) 777 fleet
76 tdscanuck : Too early to tell, but contained failures are statistically unavoidable. Yes and yes, and maybe neither. Unlikely; the reliability of engines is most
77 connies4ever : BCN and ATH are really only served due to their being 'home ports' for many cruise ships in the Med. Serving these destinations permits AC Holidays t
78 woodsboy : If anyone saw the ABC or CNN coverage of this incident they focused on "can a plane continue take-off with just one engine?" Uhh, yes it can, it isnt
79 krisyyz : That makes sense, I appreciate the info. Thanks again. I was thinking the same thing about Greece, it would be interesting to know what the mix is on
80 BoeingVista : Do we have accounts of anybody who has set eyes on the cowling to confirm this? Follow up question: Are the FADEC's aware of each other, i.e if one e
81 JoeCanuck : Not only can the 777 do it, but it's specifically designed and certified to.
82 Molykote : Here's the best nutshell "how do you tell" answer. Sorry for the delay. If you (jporterfi) have any additional questions, I'll be happy to answer the
83 ANM604 : BCN has been served by AC using the non-XM'ed 767's since the summer of 2010 (I believe), so in some sense they have already been serving it in LCC/L
84 tdscanuck : I don't think the FADEC's talk directly to each other; that would open a up a whole potential can of worms where a failing FADEC could influence the
85 gasturbineengr : That picture is of an industrial gas turbine at GE Schenectady. Not a GE90. The FADEC for each engine implements the thrust demand of the pilot or th
86 BoeingVista : I hear you both, the scenario that I had in mind though is that a FADEC will try to protect the engine and as mentioned above this kind of protection
87 Post contains links Cruiser : I also find it amusing how the big news today is that the plane had two previous incidents - an APU fire and a goose ingestion in 2009 - years ago! ht
88 Post contains images lightsaber : A windmilling engine is drag. A FADAC even has the option to run the engine in a 'criple mode.' Now, I do not know the GE-90 specifics, but typically
89 atlengineer : Lightsaber, appreciate the in-depth explanation. ATLengineer
90 tdscanuck : I've only ever seen a FADEC actually shut down an engine when it was headed for "throw blades" territory (or the FADEC thought it was). As lightsaber
91 Post contains links and images SP90 : This happened to a Malaysia Airlines 777-200ER with RR engine from a couple of years ago. I imagine something similar happened this time. View Large V
92 G-CIVP : Tristar Steve - love the post! Nice to an expert on board.
93 golfradio : Sorry, OT. But what is the 'W' in LWC?
94 Tristarsteve : The MH was an engine cowling failure. The engine ran throughout the incident. We changed the D duct and the B777 flew home. Read the flight article.
95 longhauler : The planned leisure carrier will be a Low Wage Carrier, not a Low Cost Carrier. As long as the same management runs it, and as long as they keep givi
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