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Singular CX 744BCF For Scrap?  
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10631 posts, RR: 9
Posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7749 times:

http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.main?LC=nav4&page=3

B-HOZ has been flown to Victorville. While CXs PW-powered 744BCFs are going to Air China, the fate of RR-propelled frames are unclear as they are being phased out on delivery of new 748Fs. I am surprised though that one, and the youngest one of all, should be scrapped already. B-HOZ is only 20 years old, very young for a 747 freighter to be retired. Most 747 freighters do reach more than 25 years, many 30, even 35 years. Maybe a misinformation? I think, a time of storage is much more likely, even if no other airline operates RR-powered converted 744s.

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7688 times:
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I would guess that HOZ was due for a heavy maintenance check. Operating costs are more or less the same for a 20-year old and a 25-year old 744, so if one has to be stored, it is sound financial acumen to pick the one that is nearest to needing the large expense of a heavy maintenance.


I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2897 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7340 times:

Strange. I'd keep an eye out to see if it eventually gets ferried to MZJ. From my flightaware trolling, it looks like Evergreen added a 744 in the past week (NxxxEV reg but sent to Kalita in OSC for some reason). A BCF should still be in demand, even if high-houred.


The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10631 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7185 times:

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 2):
it looks like Evergreen added a 744 in the past week

That freighter is also mentioned in my link. Its N493EV, ex N741WA of World Airways. Wonder if it will carry the green livery. There is also N492EV coming, a former JAL plane currently under conversion.
Btw World has wfu several MD11s recently under Chapter 11 so the sale of a 744BCF is rather surprising as they had planned to aquire more.


User currently offline9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6983 times:

I've always been hearing 744s with RR engines are less desirable and can certainly understand it if other operators are already running a fleet with either PW or GE engines. While a BCF will find some interest maybe the pairing with the RR engines thus works against it ? I wouldn't be too surprised if she remains in storage or eventually faces scrapping.


I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
User currently offlinekcljj From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2012, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6804 times:

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 4):
I've always been hearing 744s with RR engines are less desirable and can certainly understand it if other operators are already running a fleet with either PW or GE engines. While a BCF will find some interest maybe the pairing with the RR engines thus works against it ? I wouldn't be too surprised if she remains in storage or eventually faces scrapping.

Why would 744s with RR engines be less desirable? I understand each manufacturer's engines have different characteristics; so what inherent issues are there in RR engines, which make them less desirable for operators? Anyone able to shed some light on my ignorance?


User currently offline9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6761 times:

Quoting kcljj (Reply 5):
So what inherent issues are there in RR engines, which make them less desirable for operators?

By themselves there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with RR engines. It's a numbers game.

This case you have to see against what operators are already using. If you're already operating 747s with PW or GE engines would the introduction of 1 new aircraft with a new engine type to your current 747 fleet make sense ? It would require creating a second stream of training, maintenance & spares for the newly introduced engine type. Hence the possibility it may be less desirable to existing 747 operators.

From all the discussion i have always read here the PW & GE engine types are of the vast majority in use & the observation that the RR powered frames are therefore somewhat of the odd one out comes directly from that.

That's not to say such an aircraft is never going to be placed. Possible takers may just be somewhat more limited.



I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
User currently offlinecx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6582 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6436 times:

B-HOZ was indeed scheduled for a maintenance check and was already sitting in XMN waiting for hangar input. With the downturn in the freight market it was deemed that our entire BCF fleet will be parked one by one as more 747-8Fs are delivered. Some of the P&W BCFs are earmarked for Air China Cargo (50% owned by CX). The Rolls Royce BCFs have been going to our 60% owned subsidiary Air Hong Kong. They already have 3 of the RR BCFs. B-HOZ was the remaining RR-powered BCF in our fleet and apparently was also earmarked for Air Hong Kong however they no longer need it. It would be nearly impossible to sell a single Rolls Royce powered BCF which is due for a major maintenance check, even though this machine had less than 100,000hrs on the clock. I am assuming it was worth more as spare parts than as an operational aircraft.

B-HOZ will fly to VCV today (Wednesday 30th) and will likely be scrapped there like B-HOO, our oldest 744 was.


User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1510 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3387 times:
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Quoting cx flyboy (Reply 7):
even though this machine had less than 100,000hrs on the clock. I am assuming it was worth more as spare parts than as an operational aircraft.

How many cycles and hours did it have?


User currently offlinebmibaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1796 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3321 times:

Quoting cx flyboy (Reply 7):
Some of the P&W BCFs are earmarked for Air China Cargo (50% owned by CX).

I see there are only 6x BCF's remaining in the fleet, all of which are ex- Singapore Airlines aircraft. Do you happen to know which ones are heading to Air China Cargo?


User currently offlinecx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6582 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Quoting n471wn (Reply 8):
How many cycles and hours did it have?

94,820hrs, 14,999 cycles.

Quoting bmibaby737 (Reply 9):
I see there are only 6x BCF's remaining in the fleet, all of which are ex- Singapore Airlines aircraft. Do you happen to know which ones are heading to Air China Cargo?

At the moment B-KAH is sitting at HAECO in HKG waiting to be registered as B-2453 for Air China. It has been here some time and there are rumours that Air China do not want any more planes at the moment so what further planes will go to them is far from confirmed at the moment.


User currently offlineNutsaboutplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 496 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3045 times:

Quoting cx flyboy (Reply 10):
94,820hrs, 14,999 cycles.

Is 15,000 cycles a magic number for 747 maintenance? If so....they used her up to the number.



American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1510 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2705 times:
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Quoting cx flyboy (Reply 10):
94,820hrs, 14,999 cycles.

She had a good life---a lot of 400's have been scrapped with far less hours/cycles!!


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10631 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2594 times:

Quoting n471wn (Reply 12):
She had a good life---a lot of 400's have been scrapped with far less hours/cycles!!

Untrue. Less than ten from what I know, I wouldnt call that a lot. The majority jumps the 100.000 mark.

95000 is quite a high utilization for a 1992 model, older sistership B-HOO from 1989 surely must have had more when retired, and B-HOP from 1989 which is still active I guess must be somewhere around 115.000 like LHs oldest 744s.


User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6817 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2503 times:

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how many 744's (pax and freighter) have been scrapped so far?


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7433 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2430 times:

Kemble

F-GITA
F-GITB
F-GITC
F-GEXA

Just for starters.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10631 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2389 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 14):
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how many 744's (pax and freighter) have been scrapped so far?

The number of 744s scrapped so far is around 20, the exact number is a bit difficult to determine as there are some frames being cannibalised slowly (QF), others fast (AF, LH).

As for pax 744s:
4x AF
3xQF (2 or 3 more soon)
2x BA
1x NZ (1 or 2 more soon)
2x LH (in process)
2x UA
1x AI (in process, wfu after engine fire, no regular retirement)
Plus several 744Ds from JAL and ANA (number unknown)
A single standard JAL 744 is in process I think

B-HOZ will be the first 747-400 freighter to be scrapped if she doesnt find a new home soon.


User currently offlinecx flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6582 posts, RR: 55
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2222 times:

3-4 passenger 744s are due to be retired from Cathay this year and I think it is highly likely that they too will end up with the scrapman.

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12859 posts, RR: 100
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2143 times:
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Quoting kcljj (Reply 5):
Why would 744s with RR engines be less desirable?

The RR engines have slightly inferior fuel burn to the GE and Pratt.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/sta...up/pdf/freighters/747f_payload.pdf

It was the only one of the engines not to be improved to 5000nm with volume limited payload. While the difference was slight, it was enough to limit sales. The promised overhaul cost of the RB-211 was also high. If customers had believed how long they would last, perhaps the sales profile would be different...

Quoting cx flyboy (Reply 7):
They already have 3 of the RR BCFs. B-HOZ was the remaining RR-powered BCF in our fleet and apparently was also earmarked for Air Hong Kong however they no longer need it. It would be nearly impossible to sell a single Rolls Royce powered BCF which is due for a major maintenance check, even though this machine had less than 100,000hrs on the clock.

Nice summary, thank you.

Quoting cx flyboy (Reply 17):

3-4 passenger 744s are due to be retired from Cathay this year and I think it is highly likely that they too will end up with the scrapman.

Any 747 approaching a D-check is at threat.  

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10631 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1973 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
Any 747 approaching a D-check is at threat.

Many built before 1995 perhaps, certainly not one built in the late 90s/early 2000s.


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