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BA Limits Carry On Instruments  
User currently offlinecheeken From Singapore, joined Feb 2010, 82 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11263 times:

As a musician myself I feel that this is ridiculous. I see no reason why the size limit of instruments should be reduced to something so small, especially when it is common sense that musical instruments should not go into the cargo hold without a flight case, and no one's gonna bring a flight case for a violin....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/avia...oiled-in-a-row-with-musicians.html

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5479 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11236 times:

As a violinist, on a trip where I'm bringing my violin, I will not fly on any airline that doesn't allow me to carry the violin on. The real concern is not so much temperature and pressure in the pressurized and heated hold, but rough luggage handling. I have flown extensively on BA in the past with my violin and never had a problem, so I find this regrettable. The violin case fits perfectly in outside bins behind rollaboards turned horizontally; two rollaboards and the violin take up no more space than three rollaboards.

[Edited 2012-05-29 18:25:40]

User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11156 times:

Bad move by BA. If it fits in the cabin, it should go in the cabin. If they want to count it as a piece of hand baggage toward the allowance, that's fine, but no sane violinist will be putting their instrument in the hold - it's how they make their living, and more importantly it's extremely difficult and expensive to replace (some of them are irreplaceable).

BA's statement on how generous they are because they allow two pieces of carry-on baggage just goes to show how out of touch they are on this - it doesn't matter how many pieces they're allowed if the size limit is too small.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23031 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11096 times:

Even as a musician, I'm not sure I see the problem. It it's hand luggage sized, it flies. If it's somewhat larger than hand luggage (a category into which not too many instruments fall), it flies if there's space. If it's larger, buy a seat or check it. Makes sense to me.


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10932 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
It it's hand luggage sized, it flies.

Which violin/viola cases are - they just happen to be differently shaped than the average roller carry-on, even though their volume is much smaller. BA has now changed the size limits, thus cutting out those cases despite the fact that they could easily go into an overhead bin.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSpeedbird2155 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 878 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10752 times:

As taken from BA.com:

Quote:
Musical instruments

Small musical instruments within the maximum size and weight limits for hand baggage may be carried onboard as part of your free hand baggage allowance.
Larger musical instruments must be carried as checked baggage. Each item will count as part of your free checked baggage allowance.
It may be possible to purchase an extra seat for your musical instrument, depending on availability. If you would like to book an extra seat for a musical instrument, please make the booking through your nearest British Airways office. Extra seats cannot be booked through ba.com.

All that has changed is that the policy is being enforced more now than before, but the policy remains as it always has been. If it's within the allowed handbaggage size, then it's okay as part of your allowance, not an extra, which is what many have seemed to expect.


User currently offlinerogercamel From Singapore, joined Feb 2012, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10702 times:

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 5):
All that has changed is that the policy is being enforced more now than before, but the policy remains as it always has been. If it's within the allowed handbaggage size, then it's okay as part of your allowance, not an extra, which is what many have seemed to expect.

Did the previous allowance of violins etc really cause problems? I've travelled around on planes with my wife (who is a violinist) and whole orcehstras, and other than the crew perhaps putting into a locker rather than an overhead bin haven't ever had a problem...

Now, if only there were a way to get my cello into the cabin without an extra seat   


User currently onlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3594 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 10633 times:

Its all down to people expecting extra for their ticket, we all know that overhead bin space is limited, yet a selfish few think they have agreater right to it than others. You are a musician, so what ! why does that entitle you to a greater allowance than a photographer who's got a heap of expensive gear, or a sportsman with a bag of equipment ?

Please don't take this as a personal dig against musicians, planes are full of people trying to carry on more than their allowance, its just the case that musicians are in BA's sights this week. Another week it will be the photographer or the sportsman bleating.


User currently offlinecheeken From Singapore, joined Feb 2010, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 10549 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
Its all down to people expecting extra for their ticket, we all know that overhead bin space is limited, yet a selfish few think they have agreater right to it than others. You are a musician, so what ! why does that entitle you to a greater allowance than a photographer who's got a heap of expensive gear, or a sportsman with a bag of equipment ?

Please don't take this as a personal dig against musicians, planes are full of people trying to carry on more than their allowance, its just the case that musicians are in BA's sights this week. Another week it will be the photographer or the sportsman bleating.

The difference lies in musical instruments aren't built to survive rough baggage handling or cargo hold pressures and temperatures, whereas sports equipment and most electronics are (I'm a photographer too I know the most expensive cameras are built to handle rough handling). We just happened to possess equipment that require personal handling. Which is why cellists usually buy an extra seat for their celli, and not chuck it into cargo!


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12476 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 10423 times:

Clearly, BA needs a new instrument approach, preferably in concert with other airlines. Perhaps they could divide them into different categories, with Cat I being small instruments that can fit into normal hand luggage, Cat II being instruments which need their own cases, but can still fit into overhead bins and Cat III being the likes of cellos, which would have to go into the hold; this way, no one is flying blind.

User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10267 times:

I think this is a fair approach by the airline & should be carried over to other items.
Last September I flew London to Beirut with MEA & two women boarded the A321 carrying a wedding dress which took up almost the length of 3 overhead lockers whilst people struggled to find space for their meagre one item of luggage



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently onlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3594 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10178 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 9):
Clearly, BA needs a new instrument approach, preferably in concert with other airlines. Perhaps they could divide them into different categories, with Cat I being small instruments that can fit into normal hand luggage, Cat II being instruments which need their own cases, but can still fit into overhead bins and Cat III being the likes of cellos, which would have to go into the hold; this way, no one is flying blind.

BA have a very clearly defined instrument approach:

If it meets the carry on baggage size, you can carry it on and its part of your allowance.

If its larger than the carry on size you can buy it a seat

If you don't want to buy it a seat it goes in the hold

This can all be read on the baggage section of their website. Couldn't be clearer

Quoting raffik (Reply 10):
I think this is a fair approach by the airline & should be carried over to other items.
Last September I flew London to Beirut with MEA & two women boarded the A321 carrying a wedding dress which took up almost the length of 3 overhead lockers whilst people struggled to find space for their meagre one item of luggage

I'm sure these ladies felt that their wedding dress was extremely important, could not slum it in the hold, and should take priority over other passengers carry on allowance, even iover musical instruments !!
Here lies the problem, space is limited and only sufficient if the rules are applied fairly to all.


User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10110 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 11):
BA have a very clearly defined instrument approach

I believe that it's called ILS   



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineB2468 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9965 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 9):
Clearly, BA needs a new instrument approach, preferably in concert with other airlines.

Not sure if this was intentional or not, but if so, har har!

/that's impossible, they're on instruments!



Dash-8/ERJ/306/310/319/320/332/333/343/346/388/72S/731/732/733/734/73G/738/741/744/74E/752/762/763/77E/77W/DC9/D1C/M82
User currently offlinekdhurst380 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7356 times:

Why should everyone else have to fight for space because somebody wants to stow a guitar or something taking up an entire overhead locker? If you don't like checking it in, find another means of transport.

User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7271 times:

Charge an oversized item fee. On short hauls where bin space is limited. On wide bodies there is always room.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5479 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7234 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
Its all down to people expecting extra for their ticket, we all know that overhead bin space is limited, yet a selfish few think they have agreater right to it than others.

As already stated, a violin or viola case has less volume than a rollaboard, it just exceeds the size limits in one dimension (length).

I can fit the violin in the overheads as easily as a rollaboard, by putting it in the back and turning the adjacent rollaboards horizontal. Two rollaboards and my violin take up no more space than three rollaboards.

I am not asking for extra space or carry-on items, just a little flexibility with an arbitrary length limit. BA has afforded me that flexibility on many, many flights in the past. If they won't, I'll go elsewhere.

[Edited 2012-05-30 09:38:08]

User currently onlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3594 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6859 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 16):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):Its all down to people expecting extra for their ticket, we all know that overhead bin space is limited, yet a selfish few think they have agreater right to it than others.
As already stated, a violin or viola case has less volume than a rollaboard, it just exceeds the size limits in one dimension (length).

I can fit the violin in the overheads as easily as a rollaboard, by putting it in the back and turning the adjacent rollaboards horizontal. Two rollaboards and my violin take up no more space than three rollaboards.

I am not asking for extra space or carry-on items, just a little flexibility with an arbitrary length limit. BA has afforded me that flexibility on many, many flights in the past. If they won't, I'll go elsewhere.

It exceeds the dimensions, so the answers simple, NO. If they made an exception, there would then be a porcession of people who say "my bags 3 inches narrower than the maximum, so I should be allowed 3 inches on the length.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5479 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6792 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 17):
It exceeds the dimensions, so the answers simple, NO. If they made an exception, there would then be a porcession of people who say "my bags 3 inches narrower than the maximum, so I should be allowed 3 inches on the length.

Have just a bit of flexibility given the circumstances. Most gate agents and F/As have, up to this point.

The usual response to a bag slightly too big is to gate check it. And usually that's fine! But a violin will likely be damaged by being checked or sent as cargo. The implication is that I need to buy another seat simply because the violin is a few inches too long, even though it doesn't take any overhead bin space away from anyone else. That is an absurd result.


User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2104 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6425 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 18):
That is an absurd result.

No, just one that inconveniences you.


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6261 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
You are a musician, so what ! why does that entitle you to a greater allowance than a photographer who's got a heap of expensive gear, or a sportsman with a bag of equipment ?

An instrument (at least a proper one that a professional would use) is more expensive, more fragile, and more difficult to replace than any of those items.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 19):
No, just one that inconveniences you.

Threatens one's ability to make a living, actually, at least in the short term.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineplanejamie From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6035 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 16):
As already stated, a violin or viola case has less volume than a rollaboard, it just exceeds the size limits in one dimension (length).

I can fit the violin in the overheads as easily as a rollaboard, by putting it in the back and turning the adjacent rollaboards horizontal. Two rollaboards and my violin take up no more space than three rollaboards.

I am not asking for extra space or carry-on items, just a little flexibility with an arbitrary length limit. BA has afforded me that flexibility on many, many flights in the past. If they won't, I'll go elsewhere.

Well if it fit's up there sideways I can suggest where to put it. If it's a case that's the length of 2 average sized carry on items that go in the overhead bin then I don't blame them. Yes I'm sure it can go in sideways but as far as I'm aware it will still be roughly the same width/thickness as a regular carry on. I applaud BA for doing this actually, I was once sat in front of someone on a BD flight LHR-MAN. It was an Embraer 145, he tried taking a guitar on board (and was told, like the rest of us with average sized carry ons) to essentially gate check it. In the UK, gate checking is normally only on the small regional aircraft like the Embraer 135/145s and basically they are typically loaded after all the items of cargo/bags are loaded. They are not just thrown in. You drop them off and collect them at the aircraft door. He refused and they waited until boarding and moved people around so the guitar could have it's own seat. If for one wouldn't give up my seat for a guitar/violin or other instrument.

I have seen on that good old program Airport (BBC series which finished a few years ago) where a large children's orchestra had to carry all their instruments (including a lot of violins, violas, cellos etc) with them to China. The leader of the orchestra simply checked them in, they all paid a huge excess baggage fee and that was problem solved, I didn't see them complain other than the excess baggage fee.

At the end of the day, I'm sure they will continue to be flexible provided the flight isn't full. If it's a full flight (e.g. one of the shuttle flights from MAN-LHR or GLA-LHR) then I see no problem with them telling you that it has to be checked in as if they offer you more space, I'm sure joe public will soon be writing to the daily mail about how he was not allowed to take his large roll-aboard that's actually what I would consider a suitcase on with him, but a bloke with a cello/violin can.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6014 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 18):
The usual response to a bag slightly too big is to gate check it. And usually that's fine! But a violin will likely be damaged by being checked or sent as cargo. The implication is that I need to buy another seat simply because the violin is a few inches too long, even though it doesn't take any overhead bin space away from anyone else. That is an absurd result.

Same would be true for tennis rackets. My sister got in a big argument about this when she was on tour because they often wanted to check her tennis bag because it was slightly longer than the rules (but not larger in girth and certainly not overweight) and if they were lost, she'd have no rackets to play the tournaments with, which was the whole point of traveling on the airline to begin with. And yes, they do lose them (she had to play on borrowed, unbalanced rackets and didn't do well), which is why she refused to check them again after the first time. How would you play a tournament or a concert if you didn't have your own tools? Are you going to do as well with borrowed or replacement equipment?

Airlines forget that many of their passengers have a reason for flying other than leisure or banking. Business travel includes performance professions, not just pushing paper and money around in business suits. Guitars, tennis rackets, violins, people who take these are often BUSINESS travelers, people who travel extensively and often and can't shop for the lowest fare because they must be in X city from X day to Y day, and often change flights (including the fees to do so) so can't book the lowest fares. High value customers. To treat them like this is obnoxious and bad business.

Any one of these travelers would gladly pay a reasonable oversized baggage fee to keep the instrument in the cabin with them, but asking them to buy a second seat is asking them to double their yearly airfare expenses. All it will do is drive those customers to other airlines who don't behave like this.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5479 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5860 times:

Quoting planejamie (Reply 21):
Yes I'm sure it can go in sideways but as far as I'm aware it will still be roughly the same width/thickness as a regular carry on.

Incorrect. Like I keep saying, if 3 rollaboards can fit in the bin, then 2 rollaboards and my violin case can fit in the bin. The only bins where my violin would steal anyone's space are the narrow ones on the 2-abreast side of DC-9 derivatives.

Quoting planejamie (Reply 21):
They are not just thrown in.

Have you ever watched ramp agents with gate-checked bags? They get thrown around plenty. I don't blame the guys at all -- their job is not to coddle bags but to get the plane out on time and prevent injury. But entrusting my violin to a ramp agent is not an option.

Quoting planejamie (Reply 21):
I have seen on that good old program Airport (BBC series which finished a few years ago) where a large children's orchestra had to carry all their instruments (including a lot of violins, violas, cellos etc) with them to China. The leader of the orchestra simply checked them in, they all paid a huge excess baggage fee and that was problem solved, I didn't see them complain other than the excess baggage fee.

Those are kids, likely playing borrowed, mass-produced instruments. I expect my instrument is worth 100 times what any of those instruments are worth, and it is irreplaceable. As I wrote: checking it is simply not an option. I think pretty much any professional string player would agree with me.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 22):
Any one of these travelers would gladly pay a reasonable oversized baggage fee to keep the instrument in the cabin with them, but asking them to buy a second seat is asking them to double their yearly airfare expenses. All it will do is drive those customers to other airlines who don't behave like this.

   Exactly! A $50 fee seems reasonable, even though my violin really isn't taking anyone's space. A $1000 airfare doesn't.


User currently offlineplanejamie From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5605 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 23):
Have you ever watched ramp agents with gate-checked bags? They get thrown around plenty. I don't blame the guys at all -- their job is not to coddle bags but to get the plane out on time and prevent injury. But entrusting my violin to a ramp agent is not an option.

Yes, my dad lugged a £1000 computer from MAN to LHR to RUH checked in a suitcase. They have a thing called fragile stickers, it arrived in once piece.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 23):
Incorrect. Like I keep saying, if 3 rollaboards can fit in the bin, then 2 rollaboards and my violin case can fit in the bin. The only bins where my violin would steal anyone's space are the narrow ones on the 2-abreast side of DC-9 derivatives.

Then why not write a snottly letter to BA and tell them this? I'm pretty sure if that was the truth, then they'd have no issue with them. It's a bit like saying "I want to bring 4 golf clubs on with me, they don't weigh as much as normal hand luggage but they're not that wide and they're outside the width limit" - the airline won't let me (I'm not a golfer by the way, but I have friends that are) so why should the airline allow an instrument, rules are there to apply to everyone and good luck finding an airline (certainly long haul) that will offer you the same level of service as BA and let you take your violin on board.

Better yet, why not simply place it under the seat? I've seen that done before (even if it does stick out a bit, the main body of it is underneath), it's probably more likely to be damaged in an overhead bin given the fact people will push and fight for space.

Like BA stated on that article (which is written by the Telegraph, I'm not a fan if I'm honest):

Quote:
Where possible, we will allow customers to carry slightly larger instruments on board.
“However, customers may not be able to carry instruments on board if the flight is particularly busy, if they already have two items of hand baggage or when travelling in large groups.
“We believe our baggage policy is extremely generous as our customers can check-in a 23kg bag and carry two items of hand baggage free of charge.

Essentially, if the flight isn't too full, you can carry it on still, if it's a full flight and overhead bin space is at a premium then they'll have to find an alternative way of carrying it, remember all BA's aircraft (as far as I'm aware) have a small closet near door 1 (at least all the airbuses do), it could be placed in there, or if worst came to worst, placed in the hold. Better yet, read the article properly again and that part I've quoted, it specifies if you already have 2 items of hand baggage chances are if you don't have any or just a small briefcase and your instrument you will still be fine.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5479 posts, RR: 6
Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5547 times:

Quoting planejamie (Reply 24):
Then why not write a snottly letter to BA and tell them this?

That seems to be exactly what the UK musicians' union is doing.  
Quoting planejamie (Reply 24):
Better yet, read the article properly again and that part I've quoted, it specifies if you already have 2 items of hand baggage chances are if you don't have any or just a small briefcase and your instrument you will still be fine.
Quoting British Airways Spokesman:
“However, customers may not be able to carry instruments on board if the flight is particularly busy, if they already have two items of hand baggage or when travelling in large groups.



These days, what flight is not particularly busy?

I don't want two (or even one) other articles of hand baggage. All I want is for my violin to be treated like a rollaboard, because on any plane BA flies, it takes up no more space than a rollaboard. BA has had no issue with this in the past. Other airlines I fly don't either.


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 26, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5434 times:

Quoting planejamie (Reply 24):
Yes, my dad lugged a £1000 computer from MAN to LHR to RUH checked in a suitcase. They have a thing called fragile stickers, it arrived in once piece.

Most often, baggage does not get damaged. Baggage with fragile stickers get damaged even less often than that. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, nor does it mean that baggage with fragile stickers does not get misdirected or lost. And the chance of that happening is just too great for some people whose livelihood depends on their instrument. £1000 may seem like a lot, but it's nothing when talking about professional musical instruments.

Quoting planejamie (Reply 24):
good luck finding an airline (certainly long haul) that will offer you the same level of service as BA and let you take your violin on board.
http://www.klm.com/travel/us_en/prep.../exceptional_baggage/index.htm#p11
http://www.united.com/web/en-US/cont...avel/baggage/fragile.aspx?Mobile=1
http://www.delta.com/traveling_check...gage/musical_instruments/index.jsp
http://www.airfrance.us/US/en/common...bagage_special_autre_airfrance.htm
http://www.aa.com/i18n/travelInformation/baggage/baggageAllowance.jsp

That took about five minutes to look up.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSpeedbird2155 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 878 posts, RR: 5
Reply 27, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4999 times:

Let's look at BA's handbaggage policy and compare some of those airlines you mentioned.

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
http://www.airfrance.us/US/en/common...bagage_special_autre_airfrance.htm

Please note: some musical instruments are accepted in the cabin without prior agreement: violins, mandolins, banjos, etc.
They must not measure more than 55cm/21.7 in. (L) x 35cm/13.8 in. (W) x 25cm/9.8 in. (H)

BA dimensions: Your main piece of hand baggage is up to the dimensions 56cm x 45cm x 25cm (22in x 18in x 10in)

BA wins, so if it is within the dimensions then can be carried on BA.

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
http://www.aa.com/i18n/travelInformation/baggage/baggageAllowance.jsp
Quote:

Small musical instruments may be carried onboard the aircraft providing they meet existing carry-on size requirements and fit in the overhead bin or under the seat in front of you. Case dimensions may not exceed 45 dimensional inches (width + length + height), except for guitars which may be brought on board only if they can be safely stowed in an overhead bin or approved stowage location in the cabin.

The instrument is considered the passenger's one allowed carry-on bag. A personal item is allowed in addition to the instrument.

Not far from the BA policy, except they specifically mention guitars.

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
http://www.delta.com/traveling_check...gage/musical_instruments/index.jsp
Quote:
Guitars and other smaller musical instruments, such as violins, will be accepted as your free carry-on baggage item on Delta and Delta Connection® carriers flights¹. These items must easily fit in the overhead bin or other approved storage location in the cabin, based on available space at the time of boarding. If adequate space is not available, then the item must be checked and fees will apply.

No mention of dimensions but must be able to fit at time of boarding subject to space.

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
http://www.united.com/web/en-US/cont...avel/baggage/fragile.aspx?Mobile=1
Quote:
A small musical instrument can be carried on as a personal item. If the musical instrument appears too large or irregularly shaped to fit under the seat or in the overhead compartment, it will not be accepted for in cabin stowage.

No mention of dimensions but leaves it open to interpretation based on if it "appear" too large.

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
http://www.klm.com/travel/us_en/prep.../exceptional_baggage/index.htm#p11
Quote:
You may take a musical instrument, such as a guitar or smaller instrument, with you as hand luggage, but not in addition to your standard hand baggage allowance. The total dimensions may not exceed 115 cm/45 in (l + w + h).

Based on dimensions, but not additional to standard allowance, so still pretty similar to BA.

The idea that BA is far from other airlines and is being mean is just a group who see what they think is an opportunity to take a swing at BA.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5479 posts, RR: 6
Reply 28, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4875 times:

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 27):
The idea that BA is far from other airlines and is being mean is just a group who see what they think is an opportunity to take a swing at BA.

Hardly. BA previously had a sensible policy like those listed. I know because I have flown them a lot with an instrument! Now, at least judging by the article, they are rigidly enforcing the standard size policy with no flexibility for musical instruments, at least when the flight is full (and when is a flight ever not full)?

For me in particular, BA's competition is mainly DL and LH. DL's policy is much more reasonable (I board early and there is always space). LH has no published policy aside from the standard carry-on allowance, but has never caused me the slightest trouble as long as my case is my one permitted carry-on.


User currently offlineTallis From United Kingdom, joined May 2012, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4852 times:

Congratulations - some of the ill-informed posts in this thread have turned me from a long-time reader into a contributor at last! I think there are three very important points that a lots of people are missing here:

1) The Value of The Instruments - Professional musicians, particularly ones in period orchestras (ones that play instruments actually taken from the period of music in question) have instruments worth several millions of pounds each. Usually, expensive instruments are lent to the musicians by their owners or by trusts and sponsors, who will ban the instrument travelling in the hold in their contract, for obvious reasons. Whenever the musician flies (hundreds of times a year, for most instrumental soloists) the instrument must go with them. BongoDog1964, what differentiates a musician from a photographer and a sportsman is that the former's occupation necessitates that they must travel with a priceless, irreplaceable antique. Sure, a camera may be valuable and breakable, but it is insurable and replaceable. Most of these instruments are not.

2) The Amount of Flying Done by Musicians - Some people here obviously think we travel once a year on a jolly. I'm a professional singer, a job that involves 100+ flights a year. Usually, I travel along with a choir of 30 singers and an orchestra of at least the same number, and there are thousands of professional musicians in the UK, just like me. Our agents know exactly what they are doing, which is why we always fly airlines like BA. LH and AF rather than budget carriers. Our business is worth hundreds of millions of pounds per annum to the aviation industry, and for that reason an orchestra and choir travelling on a flight will usually receive enormous discounts and leniency in regards to their instruments, contrary to BongoDog1964 stoic but utterly misguided portrayal of us as the 'selfish-few' looking to get more for our money. Even if he doesn't realise it, airlines value our money and those that welcome us aboard win the contracts to fly us.

3) The instruments in question - For a normal tour, we use a lorry (short haul) or a cargo plane (long haul) for enormous instruments (timps, double bass etc.) and buy extra seats for medium instruments (lutes, cellos etc.) leaving only small instruments (violins, flutes etc.) to travel as hand luggage. No professional musicians would try and get anything larger than that on to the plane without paying extra money, and it annoys me when an idiot who can just about play a chord on the guitar gives the rest of us a bad name by trying to do that.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5479 posts, RR: 6
Reply 30, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4741 times:

Quoting Tallis (Reply 29):
some of the ill-informed posts in this thread have turned me from a long-time reader into a contributor at last!

Welcome! And thanks for your accurate and well-expressed insights... for a singer, you are unusually sympathetic to orchestra plebes. (I kid...   )


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 31, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4667 times:

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 27):
Not far from the BA policy, except they specifically mention guitars.

Not far in total number, but the fact that it's in dimensional inches is important. A violin case will fit within 45 dimensional inches, but it will be longer than the 22 inches that BA allows.

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 27):
No mention of dimensions but must be able to fit at time of boarding subject to space.

Which isn't unreasonable.

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 27):
No mention of dimensions but leaves it open to interpretation based on if it "appear" too large.

Again, not unreasonable - a violin case is not going to appear too large to go in an overhead bin.

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 27):
Based on dimensions, but not additional to standard allowance, so still pretty similar to BA.

Again the (significant) difference in dimensional inches/centimeters, and nobody has claimed that the instrument shouldn't count as part of the standard baggage allowance.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 32, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4673 times:

Quoting planejamie (Reply 24):
that part I've quoted, it specifies if you already have 2 items of hand baggage chances are if you don't have any or just a small briefcase and your instrument you will still be fine.

So you would support someone being able to bring aboard a violin (or similar sized item) if they don't have two items (i.e. they have just the instrument)? Would you be OK with it if it was brought in place of the wheel-aboard?

Or, what if the "groups" they mention are musicians and some have larger instruments which they have bought extra seats, but obviously those seats will not need the "two carry on items" they are allowed/entitled too. Couldn't the violinists (or other small instrument carriers) utilize the "extra space" there? Shouldn't the policy absolutely allow that?

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 60
Reply 33, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4351 times:

Quoting planejamie (Reply 24):
Essentially, if the flight isn't too full, you can carry it on still, if it's a full flight and overhead bin space is at a premium then they'll have to find an alternative way of carrying it, remember all BA's aircraft (as far as I'm aware) have a small closet near door 1 (at least all the airbuses do), it could be placed in there, or if worst came to worst, placed in the hold.

You missed the part about groups. Basically, BA doesn't want music groups or ensembles, tennis teams, etc. on their aircraft. That rule makes it quite clear. Groups will be treated differently than individuals.

I'll make sure to inform my sister and brother-in-law of this inconsistent policy that may force them to check their rackets. Even though she's retired, he travels quite a bit with his tennis players (he's a coach, nobody is flying on deep discounted Y when they travel). They will now avoid BA...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinejetblast From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 1231 posts, RR: 10
Reply 34, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4115 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 15):
On wide bodies there is always room.

I will add that BA 767s are incredibly limited on wardrobe and overhead space (the longhaul birds have 1 large wardrobe at the front and that's really it). 1 or 2 strollers and you're out of space.



Speedbird Concorde One
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 35, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 23):
I expect my instrument is worth 100 times what any of those instruments are worth, and it is irreplaceable.

If it is THAT valuable then just book another seat to guarantee that it isn't damaged or man handled by baggage loaders.
Each airline quite clearly state the allowed dimensions for hand luggage, which we ALL have to comply with.

Quoting Tallis (Reply 29):
The Value of The Instruments - Professional musicians, particularly ones in period orchestras (ones that play instruments actually taken from the period of music in question) have instruments worth several millions of pounds each.

If an instrument is worth several million, then why not just pay for another seat for it. If I had the sort of wealth to own a musical instrument that was that valuable, then paying an extra £200-300 to guarantee that it didn't get knocked about in an over head compartment would seem good value. And if I was lending this item to somebody else, then I would have to be assured that the person wasn't just putting it into an overhead compartment where it could get bashed around and knocked because people are struggling to stow their own carry on around/on top of it.

Quoting Tallis (Reply 29):
Usually, I travel along with a choir of 30 singers and an orchestra of at least the same number

So, you're telling me that if you are on a A319 with at least 30 pieces of oversized musical equipment - and we need to remember that not everybody in your orchestra are going to carry the smaller violins, how fair is that for the other 100 passengers who have paid more than you (you stated that the airlines are generously discounting your air fare) have to struggle with their baggage because there isn't enough room?

Obviously there needs to be a solution, which I believe is let the musical equipment onboard with the passengers, but sorry, if it is over the dimensions allowed, it must count as two items.



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 36, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3715 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 35):
So, you're telling me that if you are on a A319 with at least 30 pieces of oversized musical equipment - and we need to remember that not everybody in your orchestra are going to carry the smaller violins, how fair is that for the other 100 passengers who have paid more than you (you stated that the airlines are generously discounting your air fare) have to struggle with their baggage because there isn't enough room?

But again, what about all the room and overhead that the group has already paid for when they bought the extra seat for the oversized instruments? Each seat technically gets two carry-on items and that means some overhead space. Why should they not get to use that space?

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 37, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3673 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 35):
If an instrument is worth several million, then why not just pay for another seat for it.

Most musicians couldn't afford that.

Quoting raffik (Reply 35):
If I had the sort of wealth to own a musical instrument that was that valuable, then paying an extra £200-300 to guarantee that it didn't get knocked about in an over head compartment would seem good value.

By that logic, every professional photographer should be fabulously wealthy because they can afford to blow $2000 on a camera and lenses. Obviously, that's not the case - a valuable instrument isn't something you buy because you have the disposable income, it's something you buy because you need that sort of quality in order to do your best and be competitive in the job market, and you make other sacrifices to fit it into your budget.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 38, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3609 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):
By that logic, every professional photographer should be fabulously wealthy because they can afford to blow $2000 on a camera and lenses

My sister is a professional photographer as it happens and her camera cost her in 2007 £19,000. She has spent thousands on lenses. She has to travel all over with her work and it travels in her hand luggage. She often hires an assistant with her who carries additional equipment, and she checks in bulky items like tripods etc. If she is working in the UK, she nearly always finds it easier to hire a car to get around. She is pretty good, I'm obviously biased but she does a lot of work for Ikea, Homes and Gardens, Elle etc. Google Joanna Henderson Photography for her portfolio  
And no, she isn't fabulously wealthy although she does well.

I think British Airways have been very generous here- they said they will accommodate slightly larger items if the flight isn't full. They will allow your instruments on as long as you don't take the piss and bring an additional two items on with you. Be fair- we've all paid the same, we all deserve the same amount of space onboard for our luggage.
I find it really annoying when I get on a plane and find that there is no room to stow my bag because the airline in question have absolutely failed to impose a one or two bag limit for passengers- some flights I have been on, I have been aghast at what has been let on board- bags bigger than my suitcase literally shoe horned into the lockers, 4,5 bags per person, coats etc. It really isn't fair. This is not a civilised way to travel and baggage policies were introduced to stop things like this from happening. BA have it right here- if you want to bring your cello or whatever onboard, then fine, you are welcome, but because it's so large, it counts as two pieces of your hand luggage, not one.



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5479 posts, RR: 6
Reply 39, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3534 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 38):
Be fair- we've all paid the same, we all deserve the same amount of space onboard for our luggage.

The point I've been trying to make in at least five posts above is that a violin doesn't take any more space onboard than a standard carry-on. With a bit of rearranging it fits in the same space as anyone else's rollaboard. If I were asking for additional space, I could understand why posters and BA would have a problem with it.

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):
Obviously, that's not the case - a valuable instrument isn't something you buy because you have the disposable income, it's something you buy because you need that sort of quality in order to do your best and be competitive in the job market, and you make other sacrifices to fit it into your budget.

Correct. Most average professional violinists have loans on their instruments that look and feel just like a mortgage. They make decent salaries, but are no wealthier than your average lower-level manager. (I'm not a professional anymore, but I have a pro-quality instrument. I was lucky; my instrument was somewhat less expensive than most instruments of its quality, and I got help from my family years ago to purchase it.)

Quoting raffik (Reply 38):
They will allow your instruments on as long as you don't take the piss and bring an additional two items on with you.

If this were true, I'd have no issue. But they are saying that if the flight is full then you can't bring an instrument longer than 22" on even if it is your only bag and fits in the overhead without infringing on anyone else's space. That's what upsets me (and the musicians' union).


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 40, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3381 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 38):

I think British Airways have been very generous here- they said they will accommodate slightly larger items if the flight isn't full. They will allow your instruments on as long as you don't take the piss and bring an additional two items on with you.

That's not what they said. They said that they would consider allowing items longer than 22 inches if the flight isn't full. How many additional items you might have (or not have) isn't a factor.

Quoting raffik (Reply 38):
BA have it right here- if you want to bring your cello or whatever onboard, then fine, you are welcome, but because it's so large, it counts as two pieces of your hand luggage, not one.

Cellos aren't the issue - they're never going to fit into the overhead bin anyway. The issue is smaller instruments that happen to occupy longer cases.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 39):
But they are saying that if the flight is full then you can't bring an instrument longer than 22" on even if it is your only bag and fits in the overhead without infringing on anyone else's space. That's what upsets me (and the musicians' union).

  

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23031 posts, RR: 20
Reply 41, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3376 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 39):
But they are saying that if the flight is full then you can't bring an instrument longer than 22" on even if it is your only bag and fits in the overhead without infringing on anyone else's space. That's what upsets me (and the musicians' union).

How does that work? I still don't understand. If it's more than 22 inches long, isn't it going to have to go in sideways?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5479 posts, RR: 6
Reply 42, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3365 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 41):
How does that work? I still don't understand. If it's more than 22 inches long, isn't it going to have to go in sideways?

It does, but it's also very narrow. Thus instead of three rollaboards all placed lengthwise, you have the violin case sideways at the back, sitting on the narrow side of the case, and two rollaboards placed sideways in front of it. (Or you could put the violin in front of the sideways rollaboards, but I'd get too nervous about someone casually opening the bin and the violin falling out...)

[Edited 2012-05-31 18:46:34]

User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23031 posts, RR: 20
Reply 43, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3357 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 42):
It does, but it's also very narrow. Thus instead of three rollaboards all placed lengthwise, you have the violin case sideways at the back, sitting on the narrow side of the case, and two rollaboards placed sideways in front of it

I'm not sure I'd be thrilled about the potential for a 40 pound roller bag slamming in to my violin.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5479 posts, RR: 6
Reply 44, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3347 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 43):
I'm not sure I'd be thrilled about the potential for a 40 pound roller bag slamming in to my violin.

Eh. If it's already against the back wall of the bin, it won't move far or fast at all (thus not enough deceleration force to disturb the violin through the padding). The case is many times more than strong enough to absorb the force of impact without damage. (A couple of examples of the case I use have been run over by cars while not damaging the instrument inside.) The danger is really if it falls or gets pushed far enough to pick up some speed before hitting something, because then the violin may "feel" a sharp impact despite the case padding.


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 45, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3309 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 43):
I'm not sure I'd be thrilled about the potential for a 40 pound roller bag slamming in to my violin.

1) If airlines would properly enforce carry-on weight rules, no bag weighing 40 pounds would be up in the bin.

2) In the bin, nothing is going to be able to get up enough force to slam into anything. It might get bumped a bit, but that's not as bad as being dropped off a baggage cart, tossed into a baggage cart, etc.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
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