Skippy777 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2001, 797 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15933 times:
Mr de Jong is based in the USA, that is why he mentioned the FAA, but I think that if you have a handicap that you may sit in the first row. Another issue here how does he have to get out his chair if there is an emergency ?
Skippy777 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2001, 797 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15733 times:
Yes it is also on the Dutch News, but ok why does he have to take off his legs ? What if there is an emergency ? He can't walk. He was willing to pay extra for an business class seat and the cabin was half full ? Maybe his legs would not fit in between the cramp seats ?
But I think that if you are an airline you can't ask for a person to take of his legs.
And why did it go wright the first flight ?
Siren From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 307 posts, RR: 12 Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 15619 times:
Okay, this is more straightforward than it seems -
1. He is not automatically entitled to the front row on any airplane in any jurisdiction.
2. The guy had a Y class ticket. He was not booked in J or F, and they did not give him the opportunity to upgrade.
3. Clearly he did not do his due diligence - such as notifying the airline that he required special seating accommodations. The seat pitch was such that he was unable to get his legs into the seat - that's the only reason they were removed.
I sympathize with the guy. It must have been seriously embarrassing having to take off his legs with every eye on the airplane watching - that's just an inevitability when you have a disability.
I'm disabled myself with a spinal cord injury and the net result of that is that when I fly there is some inconvenience I have to put up with. More often than not I have to gate check my wheelchair and hope the ramprats don't screw it up (as they have before to the tune of $400 worth of damage. Spinergy LX wheels are expensive), even with explicit assembly and disassembly instructions. I'm always the first person on the plane, and the last person off. If I need to go to the bathroom - hoo boy, summon the flight attendant, hope they're not doing any meal or beverage service at the time, wait for them to bring the aisle chair, transfer out (with all eyes on me watching the spectacle), get to the bathroom, take care of my business, transfer back to aisle chair, get pulled back to my seat, and transfer back to my seat. If it's coach, this requires two seatmates to vacate the middle and aisle seat - I always take the window. Pain in the ass (metaphorical, as if I could feel my ass), but that's just life. This guy is making a big to do about nothing.
Skippy: If there's an emergency and I need to evac, I'm screwed. As are a ton of other passengers in my situation (and Mr. De Jong's situation). It's just part of the assumed risk. As far as the FAA is concerned, the bar is set at "being able to 'assist' with my own evacuation." They make no reference to me being able to evacuate on my own - which I can't do because I'm not leaving my seat without an aisle chair, flight attendant, or husband.
Now, Mr. De Jong should have been able to get a bulkhead seat - but if he didn't notify the airline that he would be needing these accommodations ahead of time, there should be no expectation that he will be able to be accommodated. As thee article states he offered to pay for an upgrade - he should have done this when he initially booked his travel. It's also clear that he didn't pre-board, and boarded with the rest of the passengers.
It sounds to me like he hadn't flown in a long time - assumed he would be able to cope fine, boarded the plane, and found the seat pitch wouldn't allow him to get seated with his legs attached. Once you're aboard the plane, you're not getting your seat upgraded or changed... this is a story all about nothing, and granted I am making some pretty gross assumptions about it - I know that I'm right. I've been through the whole airline disability accommodations rigamarole more times than I care to admit and there's very little that goes wrong, or is otherwise unexpected if I simply do my part and tell the airline I need accommodations (aisle chair, preboarding assistance, use my own wheelchair at the gate, etc) - everything tends to work out.
This guy... the whole story isn't being told. I've filled the blanks in with my experience to my satisfaction....
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3153 posts, RR: 17 Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15333 times:
Quoting Siren (Reply 6): Clearly he did not do his due diligence - such as notifying the airline that he required special seating accommodations. The seat pitch was such that he was unable to get his legs into the seat - that's the only reason they were removed.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 7): Mr Kersen de Jong had informed Turlish Airlines about his handicap when he booked the ticket.
That's not good enough. When he booked the ticket (who knows when? Weeks or months out), it will not be possible to select an appropriate seat. He should have called a day ahead, or tried to get a seat assignment when he arrived at the airport - an appropriate seat would have been reserved and available for him, had he requested it.
There was enough place in Business Class and Mr Kersen de Jong was willing to pay extra for the Business Class seat.
If he was already aboard the airplane at this time, then there would have been no gate agents, no ticketing agents available. Nobody there would be able to have access to the flight scheduling/booking system to appropriately bill him. What's the flight attendant going to do? Take a Net 30 invoice?
If he wanted a business class seat, he should have booked one.
Quote: No as far as this part of the story goes and without any other information Turkish Airlines did not do a good job.
We'll have to agree to disagree here. I simply cannot believe a screwup of this magnitude could happen had the appropriate notifications been made, had the traveler followed-up on his request with the airline to confirm, had he confirmed that he would have an appropriate seat assignment, etc etc and so on.
Skippy777 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2001, 797 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13917 times:
They have asked for a response of THY but they don't respond at all.
All the text is according to what Mr Kersen de Jong told the journalist.
But he informed them when he booked the ticket and on the way to Istanbul everything went fine.
So I don't think the problem is with the pax but the steward of THY
Siren From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 307 posts, RR: 12 Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13214 times:
Flight to Istanbul went fine. Return flight - not so fine. Again - did he verify his seat assignment before he went to board the plane? Did he call ahead to confirm that in fact the airline knew of his special needs for the return trip? This is elementary stuff when you travel with a disability. The airline can forget - and it has happened to me. it's never impacted me because I've done my due diligence and always confirmed the availability of seating, and services - the availability of an aisle chair is not an absolute on all planes - I've been on CRJs where they were not standard items, and so on and so forth.
This flier had a responsibility to himself to verify the airline would treat him appropriately. In an ideal world, we wouldn't need to maintain this strict level of oversight, but we don't live in an ideal world. Quite the contrary...
Siren From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 307 posts, RR: 12 Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13075 times:
Quoting speedbird203 (Reply 12):
I agree with the above comments about an emergency, Or what if he has to use the bathroom? He would have to go through the hassle of putting them back on and then removing them again.
In an emergency? He's screwed. As is anyone else who voluntarily boards a plane with a condition like mine. The fact of the matter is, if there's an emergency, I'm dead unless some good samaritain sees and hears me pleading for help - and provides it. Is it safe? not really, but there are no alternatives. A DISABILITY is, in essence, the lack of ability. The lack of ability to evacuate a plane in an emergency - to attend a restroom on a plane without a flight attendant and an aisle wheelchair - and so on and so forth.
The emergency evacuation scenarios are overblown - they so rarely occur.
I don't want to make it sound like I'm defending the airline - clearly there was some wrongdoing here. But I am a subject matter expert on this issue - and if this occurred, it sounds like something wasn't confirmed or cleared beforehand...
lexer From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 148 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4063 times:
Must say, having to take off artificial legs in front of crew and passengers is pretty humiliating. As is the storage of the limbs for everyone to see. I'd say there's a good case for compensation for moral damages.
agent99nzboi From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 36 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3597 times:
The points that Siren has brought up are quite true, for a disables passenger to receive the level of care they requite, they need to communicate and inform the Airline in advance. The passenger needs to research the level of care an airline can offer and manage themselves around this eg: Isle chair unavailable in flight.
In a prepared emergency the Disabled passenger will have an able bodied person assigned to sit next to them who will if it is safe to do so, assist them in leaving the aircraft, and crew will assist once everyone else is off as long as it is safe to do so as well.
There must have been other factors, Crew will always be more than accommodating to disabled pax so I feel Sirens assumptions of the events that took place to be the most logical.
Skippy777 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2001, 797 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3274 times:
Still no reply from Turkish Airlines. As far as I can see the problem is with THY. He informed THY before the flight about his handicap. On the way to Istanbul it went great on the way back the screwed up. They did not keep a seat available. Yesterday I flew Lufthansa and there are special seats available as you can see
So if the way to Istanbul went fine it also had to go wright on the way back I would say
sweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1759 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3255 times:
I feel bad for him, it´s not like life is easy for him anyway. Some extra care and flexibility should be natural of decent people? I don't know what to believe about this, if it is bad policy from the airline I hope they get all the bad press they deserve.
SSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3220 times:
Quoting Siren (Reply 6): Now, Mr. De Jong should have been able to get a bulkhead seat - but if he didn't notify the airline that he would be needing these accommodations ahead of time, there should be no expectation that he will be able to be accommodated.
I agree that the story does have some loose ends, however I'm pretty sure airlines reserve the right to move passengers around in order to deal with this type of thing. Certain seats (depending on A/C type and layout - you can see this on independent seating charts) are designated for physically challenged people and the airlines can and do bump you if they need that seat. It doesn't have to be reserved in advance for flight attendants to reassign seats, as far as I know. I don't think just because you have sat down that you are exempt from this, until the door closes.
So it's not clear to me why they didn't exercise their authority to accommodate him. Maybe they messed up?
But like I say - I'd love to get the whole story and the reasoning.
flyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 678 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2774 times:
Quoting Siren (Reply 13): Flight to Istanbul went fine. Return flight - not so fine. Again - did he verify his seat assignment before he went to board the plane? Did he call ahead to confirm that in fact the airline knew of his special needs for the return trip? This is elementary stuff when you travel with a disability. The airline can forget
The airline must not forget, is my opinion. I expect that the airline does not forget my booking, my travel class, my pre-ordered meal (has happened to me once), my special baggage request or my request for getting help with unaccompanied minors flying. And I'm definitely not going to spend my time trying to call them beforehand on both outgoing and incoming flights and confirm that I will get the service that I paid for when I booked the ticket. I would expect the same from the airline when it comes to special needs for disabled people. And I think the people with disabilities should do so too.
It used to be elementary stuff to confirm your flight every time before flying, but come on - this is 21st century!
25 Siren: In an ideal world, I agree with you 100% But it's far from an ideal world. Which is why I confirm confirm confirm, because I refuse to have a headach
26 ju068: Yes but an airline like Turkish Airlines, which advertizes itself as a ''5 star airline'', should not force its passengers to ''confirm confirm''. Ev
27 Skippy777: @ju068 I think you are correct, I still have no answer from THY and I am a journalist. If they don't want to or will reply 99% of the time it is becau