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AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 2  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 30833 times:
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Continuation of the original thread as it become too long:

Link to the previous one
AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread (by LAXintl Dec 5 2011 in Civil Aviation)


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Felipe


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
252 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedirtyfrankd From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 30741 times:

Awesome, thank you for starting the new thread.

When can we expect to start hearing outcomes on management negotiations with the different unions?


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25444 posts, RR: 49
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 30295 times:

Well talks are only getting under way this week. I'm sure if there is any success both sides will be more than happy to announce it publicly.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11648 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 29932 times:

Two items of note from the last week:

* AMR filed its April monthly operating report, and reported a $15M operating loss for the month ($67M net loss before restructuring costs, $142M total loss including restructuring costs), and positive operating cash flow of $145M

* Interestingly, Horton, in a memo to employees marking six months since AMR filed for bankruptcy, provided a little more detail on that 20% "growth" number that AA has been throwing around since their restructuring plan was proposed; specifically:

"The key message for all of us is that, after a decade of survival and shrinking, we are poised to grow our flying by 20% over the next five years. Nearly 70% of this new capacity will be flown by our American mainline jets, with the vast majority of that growth being international flying."

This provides a bit more "color," but not really too many surprises, about the details behind AA's growth numbers. As Horton's careful wording highlights that there will be a 20% increase in "flying" - previous public statements have specified "departures" - but 70% of the increase in capacity (though not apparently the "flying") with be mainline. That seems to confirm what many have suspected: there will be tons of new, non-mainline RJ flying, but because 1 777 carries the same or more than 3-4 large RJs, the net growth in "capacity" may well be tipped towards mainline. And, if Horton is defining capacity as ASMs, as opposed to seats, the disparity will likely be even bigger, since of course 1 777 not only carriers 3-4 times as many people as RJs, but is also likely to fly many times as far.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25444 posts, RR: 49
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 29617 times:

Well the FA's say the mediated talks with the company failed to produce any breakthroughs, and no new talks are scheduled. This sets stage for the court to rule.
Pilots however will continue talking in the coming week.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/americ...ght-attendants-fail-163800095.html

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From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinedeltaffindfw From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 29492 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Well the FA's say the mediated talks with the company failed to produce any breakthroughs, and no new talks are scheduled.

No surprise. To the layperson, it seems like APFA is not willing to negotiate. Before and after BK, they have been the only union to publicly show that they don't care to work on a deal with management - whether right or wrong. Both APA and TWU have made press releases talking about ongoing talks. This may be a media ploy by the other unions, but it shows some savvy in the court of public opinion.


User currently offlineSJUSXM From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 29362 times:

During the court process, Laura Glading testified that during the last proposal from AMR management the APFA had determined that they would not accept the offer in UNDER 24 HOURS of receiving the proposal. If this isn't an unwillingness to negotiate then I don't know what is.


AT7, ER3, ER4, ER5, CR7, E70, E75, F100, M82, M83, 722, 732, 738, 752, 762, 763, AB6, 320, 321, 772, 77W
User currently offlineDesertAir From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 1462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 29205 times:

It seems to me that in BK everyone needs to take a hit. The management must lead the way. The lowest paid workers need not have salary reductions, but work/rule concessions to make a contribution. In this way everyone shares in the rescue. Most companies have too many administrative staffs, school districts included and needless to say govt. on all levels. The key word is effeciency and maxamize productivity. Also, employees have to feel that they are importante and management is listening and responding. Somehow the corporate culture that worships authority has to end to begin a newly colaborative model. I hope AA can survive to transform itself. I have a lot of positive experiences on AA. I use them for most of my Latin America flying. Please don't merge with US.

User currently offlineqqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2283 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 29035 times:

Quoting deltaffindfw (Reply 5):
No surprise. To the layperson, it seems like APFA is not willing to negotiate. Before and after BK, they have been the only union to publicly show that they don't care to work on a deal with management - whether right or wrong.

APFA engaged in over 170 negotiation sessions over the past four years with AA, the majority of which were with an NMB appointed mediator at the table. Why is it automatically assumed APFA is the one to blame? They're not, and here's why: AA has never backed down from it's term sheet. It is as the company originally presented it in March, with a few exceptions which were accounting errors on the company's part that didn't change the overall ask and reach of the term sheet. Each and every time the Union has sat down with the Company in regards to the term sheet, the Company reiterates its "take it or leave it" stance. That is not negotiating. The exact same thing happened during regular contract negotiations prior to bankruptcy. The company would come in with their offer, which was take it or leave it. The negotiations over the past four years have been extremely frustrating to all parties, but you can't really call them negotiations. In order for that to occur, there has to be some give and take, and so far the Company has just taken.

Let me remind all that the APFA voluntarily agreed to a 33% pay and benefits cut in 2003. So to say the Union hasn't done anything, or isn't willing to negotiate, is as far from the truth as you can get. The APFA has even agreed to concessions during the bankruptcy, but again, the company is offering its term sheet as-is, no exceptions. What do you expect to negotiate with that?

Quoting deltaffindfw (Reply 5):
Both APA and TWU have made press releases talking about ongoing talks. This may be a media ploy by the other unions, but it shows some savvy in the court of public opinion.

I'm not sure you understand how these mediated sessions came about with this statement. The bankruptcy court scheduled these mediated sessions. APFA was scheduled first for June 1-2. The APA is up next from June 4-6, and the TWU follows on June 9-11. No one group is offering up more time than another, or has more interest than another in coming to agreement. All three unions are in the same boat, along with the company, in attending these court ordered sessions being mediated by a bankruptcy court judge.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3411 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 28954 times:

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 8):
Let me remind all that the APFA voluntarily agreed to a 33% pay and benefits cut in 2003. So to say the Union hasn't done anything, or isn't willing to negotiate, is as far from the truth as you can get.

Let me remind you AA doesn't have a problem with how much they are PAYING thier employees. Its how LITTLE they get for thier money. The work rules are murder to thier bottom line. The inflexiblity and hostility are also crippling thier ability to react to market forces.

To be absolutely clear, from all that I have seen, the union management is the number #1 problem for both the airline's and the employee's future health. If they would roundfile the current self serving union management and elect more flexible leaders willing to work with airline management in a give and take enviroment for the benifit of everyone... AA will do well. If they keep blaming AA management for everything including thier own mistakes while demanding industry leading wages while providing only average or below productivity from its workers... There is absolutely no future for AA.


User currently offlineqqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2283 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 28654 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 9):
To be absolutely clear, from all that I have seen, the union management is the number #1 problem for both the airline's and the employee's future health.

Then you're only seeing half the picture -- the picture AA wants you to see.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 9):
If they would roundfile the current self serving union management and elect more flexible leaders willing to work with airline management in a give and take enviroment for the benifit of everyone

So the work rule concessions the union has agreed to mean nothing? When AA filed for bankruptcy, 90% of the contract was settled, the last 10% being compensation (which is nearly always the last to be settled). The APFA had already signed off on increased monthly hours, a combined domestic and international operation, and a new reserve system. The only thing AA has done right is spin the PR machine and make people believe this bankruptcy was about employee costs. Nearly every industry analyst now agrees that is not the case. While the employee costs are part of the problem, they are not *the* problem. The unions have agreed to far more concessions than the company would ever have you know. The problem now is the unions are fighting the term sheet, which is much more drastic than UA's and DL's in their bankruptcies, two carriers which were in poorer health at the time of their filings than AA.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 9):
while demanding industry leading wages

Our wages are smack in the middle of the pack, behind WN and CO, but above UA and US.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineSJUSXM From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 28387 times:

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 10):
Nearly every industry analyst now agrees that is not the case

Can you find these for me please? I have seen people say that there is a combined cost AND revenue problem, but nowhere have I seen that the problems are solely revenue. And usually, if revenue disadvantage comes up, it's in relation to something with a US merger.

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 10):
Our wages are smack in the middle of the pack, behind WN and CO, but above UA and US.

The debate isn't what the wages are now, it's the demand to be the highest in the future. And I'm not sure CO is relevant, now that they are United, and all negotiations going forward, will be with UA. And these wages don't include the much better retirement benefits all AA'ers have been getting for at least 8 years, longer if compared to WN. That growing pension for the last eight years benefited current AA employees way more than their similar counterparts at UA who had it stop growing in their bankruptcy. DL pilots too. In addition, every public contract rejection has included pay raises on the current scale, so by not agreeing on a contract (no matter whose fault) the APFA (and APA/TWU) have missed out on PAY raises for the last few years. But comparing pay to pay is not an equal comparison.

Another major problem I have is when the head of the union uses phrases like "despicable and disgusting" in a press release. Even in the flame war going on between AA mgmt and the APA, neither side stooped to that level. Certainly doesn't help things, even if the APFA thinks they're getting screwed.

Finally, how can the APFA agree to things with US in such a short time, things that they won't agree to with AMR? When the tentative US CBA's were announced a while back they agreed to things such as a six year term, a preferential bidding system, and a single pay scale? All without a fleet plan or revenue analysis or even a guarantee that future cuts wouldn't be needed?



AT7, ER3, ER4, ER5, CR7, E70, E75, F100, M82, M83, 722, 732, 738, 752, 762, 763, AB6, 320, 321, 772, 77W
User currently offlineB377 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 28147 times:

I just spent 16 hours reading the Court Transcipts on the Section 1113 issues.

There is a lot of information on AA's business plan (if you can read between the lines on confidential information) and the Unions response.

The entire 1113 transcripts are on the APFA site: http://www.apfa.org/content/view/2276/626/

What are your thoughts?


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25444 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 27968 times:

Regular omnibus hearings are scheduled for this week.

Nothing too exciting, but dockets items include:

o Rejection of aircraft and engines for 9 MD-80
o Protective objections of US Bank regarding timely surrender and return of aircraft, and AMR follow up that its delayed return was warranted under applicable laws.
o Motion by Bank of New York Mellon Trust for adequate protection of collateral due declining value.
o Allowing 325 pending claims against AMR from various vendors
o Disallowing, reclassifying, or partially allowing claims by 153 vendors


=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5142 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 27958 times:

Why are they still talking to Unions now the are bankrupt? I thought they could do now whatever they want with contracts etc?

And, is it wise to talk to Unions now US is in talks to takeover AA? I assume in that case it should be US unions US should be talking to, not AA with AA unions, right?


User currently onlineflyfree727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 27858 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 14):
Why are they still talking to Unions now the are bankrupt? I thought they could do now whatever they want with contracts etc?

AA needs NEGOTIATED contracts to emerge from BK.

Like it or not, they still have unions on the property and contracts still have to be negotiated.

AA ORD


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4058 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 27784 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 14):
And, is it wise to talk to Unions now US is in talks to takeover AA? I assume in that case it should be US unions US should be talking to, not AA with AA unions, right?

US really has no reason to talk to their own unions at all, since they will virtually be instant minorities if any deal does in fact go through.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12574 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 27558 times:

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 8):
Let me remind all that the APFA voluntarily agreed to a 33% pay and benefits cut in 2003. So to say the Union hasn't done anything, or isn't willing to negotiate, is as far from the truth as you can get.

I don't know how relevant what happened in 2003 is. If anything it tends to show that since the workers have been willing to work for 9 years for 1/3rd less, chance are that they are still overpaid because they haven't found anything else that pays better in the past 9 years.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAv8tor From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 27561 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
I don't know how relevant what happened in 2003 is. If anything it tends to show that since the workers have been willing to work for 9 years for 1/3rd less, chance are that they are still overpaid because they haven't found anything else that pays better in the past 9 years.

You obviously don't work for the airlines! Clueless.


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4058 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 27507 times:

It's not all about pay.

Starting from scratch elsewhere can be difficult in other ways. You lose seniority which is everything. I do not work for a passenger airline, but I have been with my company for five years and I would not switch jobs even for a raise. Some companies do reward loyalty and reliability.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11648 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 27429 times:

Quoting SJUSXM (Reply 11):
The debate isn't what the wages are now, it's the demand to be the highest in the future.

I don't think any AA employees, union or otherwise, have any expectation of being the highest-paid in their work group among industry peers anytime soon. That would be wholly unrealistic, ridiculous union demands/statements of yesteryear (Superbowl Sunday a paid holiday, "restore and more," etc.) not withstanding. Please show me one serious union representative (i.e., not a post on an internet forum) demanding - since bankruptcy - to be the "highest paid" in the future - I don't think you'll find one.

And focusing merely on wages largely misses the point, since pay scales - in isolation - are really not the issue here, as both the company and the unions have acknowledged. The labor-union-contract-driven "cost" that has put AMR at such a competitive disadvantage in the last five years are: first, the cost of labor productivity and efficiency levels lower than post-bankruptcy mainline peers and/or the regional airlines they have outsourced relatively more of their flying to; second, the defined benefit pension plans that have left a massive liability on AMR's balance sheet that competitors have either frozen or dumped; and finally, and perhaps most critically, the opportunity cost of lost chances for growth and competitiveness than AMR has missed out on because they were straight-jacketed by union restrictions.

Those are the issues AMR and its unions simply must address during this process, not base pay.

Quoting SJUSXM (Reply 11):
Another major problem I have is when the head of the union uses phrases like "despicable and disgusting" in a press release.

It's the nature of the beast. Politicians have to use emotional, political rhetoric in order to rally the troops. Just witness what is happening in this country writ large at the moment ...

Quoting SJUSXM (Reply 11):
Even in the flame war going on between AA mgmt and the APA, neither side stooped to that level.

False. An APA official - from the previous, radical, union leadership administration - several years ago implied that Gerard Arpey was a "murderer," and the APA (in)famously took out billboards near DFW essentially implying that AA's planes were unsafe. This outrageous rhetoric is hardly anything new, and in fact by comparison, nothing Glading has said - at least in public - seems all that inflammatory.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 15):
AA needs NEGOTIATED contracts to emerge from BK.

Do they? I think everyone would agree that AA should get negotiated contracts with their unions, and perhaps even that they "need" them in a sense to have some semblance of labor stability going forward.

But, legally, does AA truly need consensual, negotiated, membership-ratified CBAs in order to exit Chapter 11? Are ratified CBAs a legal requirement for Chapter 11 emergence?


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12574 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 27201 times:

Note, in the below, when I say "your", I don't mean any particular individual....

Quoting Av8tor (Reply 18):
You obviously don't work for the airlines!
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 19):
You lose seniority which is everything.

Correct, I don't work for airlines, which means I don't suffer the lock-in that a seniority based system brings. If someone cut my salary by 1/3rd I would go out and find a different job in a different line of work if need be, and if I couldn't find such a job, that'd show me that the demand for the services I can provide is no longer there, so I'd better be happy with the 1/3rd cut, and/or build up my skill sets so I could get a better paying job.

Personally, I think it's "clueless" to hold a grudge for 9 years. Things changed, your salary got cut and you stayed in place. Now your company is in bankruptcy, so I would not bet on getting it back, and to bring up the 9 year thing now makes you look "clueless" when you can just as easily reach the conclusion that 9 years ago you were overpaid so the give back was justified.

This thread shows that everything that is going on now is under the supervision of a judge and that the union leaders you are paying are having a chance to bring their side of the argument to court, so if another set of givebacks result, I really hope you don't decide to hold another grudge for another 9 years, it's not good for you or your customers either.

I feel sorry for people caught under such circumstances, but it's a bumpy ride in most industries these days. Personally, my company has had three major layoffs over the last ten years, and many more minor ones. The last one 9 months ago I had already received my layoff paperwork and had two weeks to find another job in the company, and did so with just one day to spare.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinebmibaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1811 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 26871 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
o Rejection of aircraft and engines for 9 MD-80

Would these be the 9 that were previously rejected, of which 7 returned to service and 2 remain in storage?

N556AA wfu and std 25 January 2012, rts 02 April 2012
N557AN wfu and std 23 January 2012, rts 23 March 2012
N558AA wfu and std 27 January 2012, rts 19 March 2012
N559AA wfu and std 22 January 2012, rts 27 March 2012
N560AA wfu and std 22 January 2012,
N561AA wfu and std 26 January 2012,
N573AA wfu and std 25 January 2012, rts
N574AA wfu and std 22 January 2012, rts 27 March 2012
N575AM wfu and std 27 January 2012, rts 08 April 2012

I believe someone asked about the current active fleet in the previous thread, so here's what I think is correct:

738 x178
752 x107
762 x15
763 x58
772 x47
M82 x112
M83 x87

Total mainline: 604


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4016 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 26674 times:

Quoting Av8tor (Reply 18):
You obviously don't work for the airlines! Clueless.

While I do not agree with what Revelation wrote, he has a fair point. I know several corporate pilots who used to be airline pilots. One of them is an ex-777 captain still in this 40's. He just had it with airlines and moved on. I know real estate agents who used to be flight attendants. Airline employees who think the only job they can do is the same they already do are, might I say, clueless?



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User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 26575 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 20):
But, legally, does AA truly need consensual, negotiated, membership-ratified CBAs in order to exit Chapter 11? Are ratified CBAs a legal requirement for Chapter 11 emergence?

So if chpt.11 does not eliminate the right of the workers to remain in the union what work rules / conditions will they work under when they emerge and if they have no say about them, how does the judge or chpt.11 prevent a work stoppage when they emerge?


25 LAXintl : Couple small court items for next week. All fleet related. o Stipulation for extension of negotiations covering 2 737s – N970, N978 o Stipulation fo
26 LAXintl : In other news, the NMB ordered a vote for unionization of AA's passenger agents to proceed beginning June 21st. The CWA has been trying to represent t
27 LAXintl : News out of AA this week. AA was able to get a temporary restraining out of US District Court pending a full hearing on June 21st to bar the NMB from
28 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Ultimately that invisible hand slaps you in the face regardless of what union you belong to, government you elect, referendum you approve, or tantrum
29 commavia : Because, again, that 20% increase in flying - as defined, apparently, by departures - will likely only result in a net increase in capacity of maybe
30 LAXintl : Small list of items on this weeks court docket. Of course the big event will likely be the scheduled June 22nd ruling on the 1113 motions to abrogate
31 ckfred : IIRC, isn't AA still leasing some gate space at MDW? AA used to have service to both DFW and LGA, but that was probably 10 years ago. I'm assuming th
32 LAXintl : Well the APA has rejected AA's final offer by vote of 11-5. Lets see what the court does on Friday. Now I'm really starting to wonder what type of lab
33 commavia : Are you sure about that? Of course any employee can quit at any time, but if the court abrogates, are the unions free to legally impose self-help (i.
34 JFKPurser : No -- there is no legal self-help provision available to unions in an 1113 abrogation scenario. But it is widely believed among front-line AA workers
35 LAXintl : Actually yes I believe employees can go to self-help. This was actually a very likely scenario in one of the US Airways BK cases when it also sought t
36 par13del : Does the law allow a "have your cake and eat it too" scenario? If the union contract with AA is abrogated one would assume that the workers now becom
37 JFKPurser : Well, if what you are saying is true, none of this has been entertained by any of AMR's unions -- at least not officially. None of it has been mentio
38 n839mh : Why don't the employees just vote out all the unions (or a majority) and go along the lines of Delta?
39 JFKPurser : Do you live under a rock?
40 Post contains links commavia : Never a dull moment.
41 skycub : I have a question and I ask this with all due respect to the American flight attendants. It really seems as though (and I could be wrong) their paysca
42 Post contains links SkedGuy : Looks like Judge Lane has granted a 1-week extension to AMR and the APA: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/judge-...g-american-airlines-230310989.html Qu
43 aluminumtubing : I think the APA board of directors did the right thing. It was not a no vote in general as we are being told, but the contract language was not put in
44 SonomaFlyer : While the back and forth of negotiation can be tedious, stressful and frustrating - its a damn sight better than the proposition of the court allowing
45 Post contains links commavia : Probably a little of both - I imagine the APA is hedging their bets and trying to place both sides to get the best possible deal from both (not unlik
46 LAXintl : Besides the delayed 1113c motion now pushed to Friday June 29th, there are a few other things on the courts agenda this week. o Extension to negotiate
47 ckfred : As to the issue of whether airline unions can engage in self help (i.e., work stoppages), if a contract is abrogated under section 1113, I think the a
48 LDVAviation : From what I have read, the prevailing case at the moment would be Northwest versus its Flight Attendant Union. The Northwest FA contract was governed
49 qqflyboy : AA and the APFA have agreed to more talks July 3-5. Interesting they scheduled it over the holiday, but I guess it goes to show how short the timeline
50 crAAzy : Encouraging news. I would also image they are on a very short leash and there was little choice about negotiating over the holidays. If progress cont
51 Post contains links miaami : http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_t...all-unions-pending-pilot-vote.html
52 qqflyboy : It was just reported via company hotline the APA has decided to send the last proposal to the pilots for a vote. It was also reported Judge Lane has f
53 LAXintl : August 15th is the new proposed ruling date.
54 LAXintl : And in other news - AMR filed with the court its May financials - $132mil net loss.
55 commavia : One wonders why Glading is even bothering - perhaps besides putting on a good show to demonstrate "good faith" for the judge, or maybe as a slight he
56 LAXintl : AA is not paying much in bills - expect to see huge cash outflows in coming months. Only in recent weeks have the court given approval for them to com
57 Post contains links LAXintl : AMR filed with the court for permission to extend the time under which is holds exclusivity to develop a reorganization plan. AMR asked the court to e
58 TWA85 : In light of the recent developments, such as the TA with the APA and the other unions coming back to the negotiating table plus the joint request by t
59 mhkansan : Yes and Yes. I feel that was the original intent all along. Don't forget AA will be profitable and will continue to have lots of unrestricted cash ly
60 HPRamper : All that unrestricted cash will just add to the bad blood among the unions if they end up making concessions. A TA is not the end of the story althou
61 TWA85 : With all do respect, this is not entirely correct. AA's has had a lot of unrestricted cash for a long time. Although it does make the unions sour whe
62 qqflyboy : The main reason is AA relaxed their 20% ask with the pilots, and as required in the 1113 process, the givebacks have to be fair and equitable. AA has
63 avek00 : The AMR unions "support" the idea of a merger (and lest we forget, despite the talk, there is NO formal merger proposal at this time from anyone) onl
64 par13del : Is this not the same scenario played out when DL was in Chpt.11 and he attempted something similar? If a deliberate strategy it does ensure that the
65 JFKPurser : Not true. The vast majority of AA employees wholeheartedly believe that the company will not survive on its own longer than a couple of years. The su
66 bmibaby737 : Has N196AA Boeing 757-223(WL) changed configuration recently? I see it's been flying into LHR recently...
67 phxa340 : You also said that about the creditors being on board ready to announce a merger and the exact opposite happened when Boeing literally 24 hours later
68 JFKPurser : There's a lot more to this than meets the eye. Nothing I said originally has changed. This is a game everyone needs to play by certain rules and alon
69 ckfred : Let me start with Parker. How do we know that what he promised the unions is what the unions ultimately get under a merger between AA and US? When AA
70 JFKPurser : There are tentative agreements in place which he's already signed. These agreements include provisions that within 60 days of the takeover, the contr
71 chepos : It's beyond me why some around this website want AA to take over B6, I thought people liked B6? It bothers me to think what team ToHo would do to JetB
72 LDVAviation : AA's unions are deluded. Meanwhile, AMR management continues to find ways to reduce your claims against the estate. The way things are going, your vo
73 william : At first, I wanted AA to stand alone, but after reading JFKPurser posts and seeing how she or he has been more right than wrong, and actually has skin
74 ckfred : As a lawyer, I can tell you that I've done that tactic many, many times. You tell the judge that the client has no wiggle room whatsoever. It's all a
75 AAExecPlat : If this is true, then this might be some of the most disgusting in-bad-faith negotiating that I have ever heard of or seen. Again, if true, all union
76 BlueLine : Does anyone here know if the renegotiations between AMR and the TWU will include the 1113 proposal for Eagle employees?
77 Post contains links JFKPurser : Coming from you, this really isn't news. How would you possibly know this? And even if it were true, it's not going to matter when a majority of the
78 HPRamper : One of the two sides is going to win out...why would the unions not squeeze the remaining one for what they can get, since the US offer is already a
79 Post contains links JFKPurser : More analysts reports on the benefits of a US plan versus AMR plan are available on the APFA website here: http://www.apfa.org/content/view/2283/929/
80 TWA85 : With all do respect, if none of the UCC members have any faith in AA's stand alone plan, why would they file a joint request with AA for a time exten
81 avek00 : If you believe the CEO of a legacy airline that features the weakest product and revenue streams is going to actually give you greater pay and better
82 AAExecPlat : I have read the report. And frankly, it's full of assumptions that are far too optimistic. And some of the stuff makes no sense at all...they talk ab
83 JFKPurser : Far too optimistic? Assumptions? Have you read AMR's business plan? Talk about overly optimistic. Talk about assumptions. They are what make up the l
84 TWA85 : There was alot of skepticisism in regards to the DL/NW and UA/CO mergers. However with all do respect, DL/NW and UA waited untill AFTER they emerged
85 JFKPurser : They are simply following protocol. They are, out of respect and for reasons of due diligence, giving AMR more time to complete its final proposal. I
86 chepos : If US and HP would not have merged both airlines would have been long gone, US is still around (yes the merger has had hiccups but again US is still
87 AAExecPlat : Drama much? You need to get off your soapbox every now and then and face the music of reality. While DL's merger has indeed been successful for the m
88 tugger : Are the union's and employees beholden to the same rules and requirements as the management is towards the unions/employees? In other words do the emp
89 JFKPurser : Well then you clearly know more about this than I ever will. ANd with that in mind, tell me why US Airways is now poised to successfully take over AM
90 chepos : We are beating a dead horse here once again as we usual do when it comes to the endless saga of the AMR BK. Regards, Chepos
91 JFKPurser : Yes. We are. Which is exactly why we have agreements with US CEO Doug Parker in place and are helping him take over American Airlines. We have sugges
92 JFKPurser : The new AA product will reflect the quality and exceed the reputation of the current AA one, which is what will need to happen in order for AA to reg
93 AAExecPlat : I don't think you understand what I am saying (or maybe you don't want to), but I agree that a merger makes sense. It's just that what makes the MOST
94 tugger : But: How does that reconcile? Wouldn't AA be much better off if the removed the current union leadership and the current line employees so that costs
95 TWA85 : The number one reason why so many people belive an AA/US merger makes since is because the combined airline will be of comparable size to the new DL/N
96 LAXintl : AA is out with its plans for cut for the non-union airport, cargo and reservations employees. In total it now seeks $81mil annually from the group. Pr
97 JFKPurser : Yes we are aware of that. Still better than what AMR has currently offered us. And just so you know, APFA President Laura Glading has stated that eve
98 JFKPurser : I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of the AA/US combination of two "weak" networks creating another weak one, and so does all of Wall Str
99 GSPSPOT : I know I'm coming in in the middle of this discussion, but isn't this exactly what AA already has plans to do (for hard product)? The website is full
100 JFKPurser : From Wall Street Journal concerning the extension of the exclusivity period: "Creditors prefer to have US Airways or other interested merger partners
101 TWA85 : The combined networkd of AA and US will be VERY strong however just not now. The assesment is based on the fact that AA high revenue yeilding network
102 AAExecPlat : What are those huge cuts?
103 JFKPurser : Under AA: 20% total reduction of compensation: Reduced pay Reduced vacation credit -- at least one third less per year Reduced sick time credit -- en
104 JFKPurser : She has known this for a long time and has forged positive professional and personal relationships with AA execs past and present. In addition, she i
105 JFKPurser : Correction -- I just reviewed this again. The language is that the single carrier petition will be filed within 60 days of the transaction. If agreem
106 AAExecPlat : I am aware of the generalities that you posted. What I would like to know are the EXACT terms and implications (for FAs), meaning: - Pay for FAs is r
107 Post contains links LAXintl : If you want to know more about what AA is proposing check out the term sheets for each work group. AA has posted them online. Here is the APFA section
108 Post contains links JFKPurser : There is a lot of explaining and information involved in answering this, and frankly, I really don't have the time to go through point by point and e
109 JFKPurser : Just FYI this was industry standard before the round of bankruptcies in the mid 2000s. WN still has it from what I understand. We were the last legac
110 TUSAA : I dont see it happening due to a few issue's. If it were offered to the APFA, then the APA and TWU would expect the same deal under the 'Me Too Claus
111 JFKPurser : APA and TWU never were interested in early out proposals, nor are they now. The APA never asked for one. Neither did the TWU. So we won't be seeing th
112 Post contains links JFKPurser : An interesting read on the Dallas News Aviation Blog -- explanation of the reasons for the extension of exclusivity and filing of business plan. Makes
113 TUSAA : The TWU is being offered a earlyout package right now, but it's not as good as the one the APFA is seeking. The TWU will want the same as the APFA is
114 AAExecPlat : Thanks for posting the term sheet. Unfortunately, the second link you posted says I can't access it. If you know of another location for the US term
115 JFKPurser : Thanks for clarifying -- I asked and was told TWU wasn't concerned with early out.
116 JFKPurser : Copied and pasted: APFA/US Airways Bridge Term Sheet Highlights - April 20, 2012 Early Out APFA's proposal accepted No Furloughs Wage Increases: 2.5%
117 LAXintl : A few aircraft items scheduled for court hearings this week. o Negotiations extension covering 216 ERJ aircraft o Extension covering 3 MD-80 aircraft
118 Post contains links LAXintl : AA and two TWU units (mechanics & stores) reach a TA. TWU, American announce tentative agreements http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...nnounce-t
119 JFKPurser : APFA and TWU forced Horton into agreeing to opening the books to US in exchange for these TAs, even though Horton is taking credit for it to make it
120 Post contains links LAXintl : BK process is not cheap. Professional fees have now topped the $100mil mark since the Novembers Ch.11 filing. We’ve hit $100 million in fees on the
121 Post contains links LAXintl : American Eagle pilots expect the company to seek a 1113 motion by the end of the month unless they can reach an agreement with the company on the cont
122 GSPSPOT : AA needs a true Southeastern hub and more presence in this region, IMO. MIA doesn't do that - it links major U.S. markets with the Caribbean and Lati
123 Post contains links LAXintl : Like their mainline brothers, the Eagle pilot group is meeting directly with US Airways to discuss how a future AE would serve a merged airline. Ameri
124 LAXintl : Agenda items for this week. Interesting to note AMR is now seeking to extend their exclusivity period till February 2013. o Negotiations extension cov
125 Post contains links LAXintl : Court extended exclusively period till the end of December. Court extends exclusivity period to Dec. 28 in American Airlines case http://aviationblog.
126 Revelation : Interesting that the article says the extension was requested by AA and the creditor's committee as well...
127 flyguy89 : Well neither is UA/CO or B6...airlines can't be all things to all people. I agree with TWA85, a combined AA/US would be a strong carrier, just not no
128 Post contains links LAXintl : To head off the 1113 motion, APFA will send out AA's last, best and final offer for a membership vote. Vote timing still TBA. story: http://aviationbl
129 LAXintl : Some more hearings items this week – All fleet related. o Approval of negotiations extension covering 7 MD-80s – N7375, 7522, 7538, 7527, 951, 962
130 Revelation : Interesting indeed. Since you follow this pretty closely, are the hearings for aircraft leases pro-forma? Meaning that almost all get accepted?
131 LAXintl : Well usually an airline has an idea of what it wants to keep, and what it wants to reject. For the stuff they want to keep, they will often try to bar
132 LAXintl : A few small items planned for this week. o Negotiations extension covering 3 B737s – N974, 975, 976 o Negotiations extension covering 1 MD-80 0 N976
133 Post contains links LAXintl : Some news about AE. The company and AFA representing AE flight attendants reached an agreement on a revised contract. This is the second AE deal, with
134 ckfred : Interesting. I know a few AA pilots. Some think that Parker is the guy who will save AA and return it to the position of industry leadership that AA
135 HPRamper : Which may be the case, but the question would be, would those improved wages and benefits sink the company? I don't even think Parker would argue tha
136 TSS : It's good to hear that some AA pilots have a dose of healthy cynicism in their personalities. Put another way, just because the nice man is offering
137 LAXintl : Court items for this week - o Extension of time to negotiate covering 13 MD-80s – N584, 587, 588, 589, 59523, 7530, 7531, 7537, 7539, 7543, 7544, 16
138 norcal : It might be if the alternative is a broken home with an abusive alcoholic daddy who beats you senseless all the time. At least this way you might get
139 AAIL86 : I understand that the company is in bankruptcy, but this is absurd. If you worked 50 years for a company its fair to say you have the right to the me
140 ADent : Maybe so, but this is very common in the US - even in companies that don't go bankrupt. PS Thanx LAXIntl for your continuing posts.[Edited 2012-08-07
141 LAXintl : Dumping of pensions, and other retiree benefits is quite common these days. In essence its these things that are strangling business. For every 1 empl
142 par13del : It was not absurd when they used those benefits to attract and keep the best and the brightest workers that they wanted. It does make you wonder why
143 LAXintl : By a squeaker (50.25% in favor) TWU mechanics and store clerks approved the airlines concessionary contract offer. Still waiting to hear APA results t
144 commavia : 61%-39% NO
145 william : So what happens now with pilots? Does the Judge now force AA's term sheet on them?
146 LAXintl : Well the 1113 motion was already filed, and is simply pending a ruling which the judge put off till August 15th. So come next week, the court indeed c
147 ckfred : I was just looking at the APA website, and I found something by a Captain Jacque Johnson, who is from the LAX crew base. He made an interesting obser
148 william : @ckfred Interesting, but with the slow travel season almost here, billions in the bank, and an election this fall, I would not be suprised for AA to c
149 Post contains links william : It looks like my hunch may be right. http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...unions-turn-down-their-deals.html/
150 apodino : I posted this in another thread...but since I realized this thread existed and the other one may get deleted I am repeating it here. Reading some pilo
151 chepos : I suspect the company will not just toss the pilots contracts. AMR was not expecting this and was most probably using scare tactics with the whole tos
152 TWA85 : Agreed! Rejecting this TA is only going to complicate things even more and further delay any potential merger with US. The Unions think they can push
153 Revelation : I thought the judge was supposed to look at the situation objectively. If s/he isn't, then management is free to offer crap contracts and then gain t
154 TWA85 : The judge is supposed to determine if the labor contracts should abrogated as a result of the unions unwillingness to negotiate a consensual deal tha
155 Revelation : Personally, I'm not sure "willingness" has anything to do with it. My understanding is the judge will have the full measure of the company's business
156 LDVAviation : I get the reference. It is Captain Johnson who doesn't get what the case law is on the matter. See Northwest versus its FA union. In short, any work
157 flyhossd : Would a strike by the pilots be illegal? I haven't (yet) found an applicable section of the R.L.A. that addresses this situation - where a contract i
158 TWA85 : It does in the sense that the APA could have had a contract that AA management was offering, in the intrest of negotiating a consentual deal, with be
159 LDVAviation : Yes, it would be illegal. For the reasoning, look up the appellate court decision in the case of Northwest versus its FA union. The circumstances in
160 Revelation : Doesn't make sense to me. The contract that gives the company the best opportunity to survive is to pay mainline pilots like regional pilots or worse
161 ckfred : But, by the time a judge gets pilots back to work, the damage may be irreversible. You could very well have pilots who will defy the union and a fede
162 flyhossd : First, thanks for the reply and the quickness of it. Second, I'm not sure if I understand it all, but it looks like to me that the appeals court didn
163 aaexecplat : I personally don't think AA will impose the draconian 1113 conditions on the pilots. Far more likely they will ask the judge to impose the voted down
164 LDVAviation : What would be gained by that? Hypothetically, I guess anything is possible. But honestly the APA should know better. A federal judge (in Texas) almos
165 Post contains links SATexan : David Bates, the president of APA has resigned following yesterday's contract rejection.. http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/2...n-at-american-airline
166 Post contains links LAXintl : And in the mean time AA and the AE pilots have a T/A on a revised contract -- needs to go out to vote now. ALPA letter regarding TA. http://www.scribd
167 par13del : If staff at the first company that had a contract imposed on them in Chpt.11 had resigned en-masse, the legal community, judges and business environe
168 flyhossd : LDV, first, thanks for your replies in this thread and in others regarding AA. It does address the concept, but did it address whether NW was violatin
169 LAXintl : The court announced today it will delay the 1113 motion hearings to a date till sometime post August 19th to allow the FA's to continue voting. Guess
170 Post contains links miaami : Just for the flight attendants...the Pilot decision will still be on Aug 15. http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_t...it-for-flight-attendants-vote.htm
171 aluminumtubing : AA may very well put the draconian 1113 in place. I am hoping they do not, as this would definitely be the beginning of the end of AA in it's present
172 Post contains links LAXintl : A few items for court this week. All fleet related. o Further 60-day extension to negotiate covering entire Embraer regional aircraft fleet o Negotiat
173 avek00 : If an agreement with the pilots cannot be reached, AMR absolutely should impose the 1113 terms. The tragicomic aspect is the wishful thinking of many
174 aluminumtubing : avek00 First and foremost, only the those on the top floor know what will happen, at least in the short term. All other posters on here can only "spec
175 LDVAviation : Here is what I find funny. You have just gone on the record as saying that the pilots will engage in a work action if AA imposes the 1113 terms. If A
176 aluminumtubing : LDVAviatio I may have not been very clear. There will NOT be a job action as defined by law. The union is speaking out very clearly telling everyone t
177 avek00 : Perhaps, but I do have some professional experience in the legal and political workings of management-labor relations, so I'm not speaking from ignor
178 TWA85 : aluminumtubing, From an insiders point of veiw, is there a possibility that AA and the APA will be able to go back to the negotiating tabel and come u
179 crAAzy : Not an insider but I would think if they vote were a little closer then maybe the parties would consider sitting down at the table again. However, gi
180 avek00 : The granting of relief by the bankruptcy court does not eliminate the legal imperative for AMR and the affected union(s) to continue bargaining for a
181 atlengineer : What would the AA pilot group consider draconian? What about a similar contract to DL or UA? Just asking. I don't think the bankruptcy judge is going
182 PlaneAdmirer : I am not sure that that is factually correct even if it does happen that way. The judge's issue is the AA bankruptcy and what creates the most value
183 aluminumtubing : atlengineer Draconian would be the original 1113 filed back in April, which is what the company has indicated it will impose. As far as the UA/DL cont
184 avek00 : I don't think the workgroups facing abrogation are ready for the hurt feelings that will come when the "term sheet" commitments from US vanish into th
185 TWA85 : What is the status of Jude Sean Lane's ruling to approve or deny AA's request to abrogate the APA contract. Is he still making a ruling today as plane
186 chepos : It is scheduled for this afternoon, he is expected to electroically file his ruling. Regards, Chepos
187 aaexecplat : Agreed on all counts. I think the April TA will be imposed and the old contract abrogated. I personally think it would be a very wise move for AA to
188 xjet : There is an APA hotline email circulating that the judge has granted AMR's request....
189 flyfree727 : The APA has been quick to say this was a "server glitch" that sent out the email.. They had pre-written updates for either outcome.. Again, please wa
190 xjet : Got it. Word traveled fast.
191 aluminumtubing : aaexecplat I truly appreciate your loyalty to AA. With almost 30 years with AA and with up to another 11 years to go if I were to take the option to
192 ckfred : Let me throw out this idea. Assuming that AA gets its 1113 motion with the the pilots, management then meets with APA to discuss the matter and propos
193 chepos : Breaking news! Pilots contract will not be thrown out. Regards, Chepos
194 Post contains links rojo : Latest news: JUDGE SEAN LANE DENIES AMR MANAGEMENT’S MOTION http://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/A...denies-AMR-managements-motion.aspx
195 flyfree727 : As we say on the plane.. Buh Bye Horton... AA ORD
196 Post contains links LAXintl : News story - U.S. judge denies American Air request to scrap pilots' union pacts http://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-judg...denies-american-air-220250444.
197 flyfree727 : And let me add Congrats to APA! shameful no one has said that with the amount of jobs just SAVED with Judge Lane taking issue with scope and furloughs
198 aluminumtubing : While we don't know where this will take us, the ruling doesn't appear to be a big win. The company has said they will amend the 1113 filing to addre
199 chepos : Very true FlyFree! Good for the pilots who stood their ground amidst intimidation, fear tactics and numerous other campaigns. Yet they won this round.
200 flyfree727 : Well, for the thousands of AA employess that would potientially be furloughed due to codeshare flying, I would imagine they would disagree with you..
201 Post contains images 30west : At least you didn't place that bet with your life savings
202 LAXintl : I wonder what this does for the AFA vote? Maybe a no vote would position them better as well.
203 GSPSPOT : True, but this process needs to END soon, so there's some kind of certainty for employees, passengers and potential passengers. The longer this drags
204 aluminumtubing : As a close to 30 year Captain with AA, I know exactly what the implications of Scope are. I am not at all saying that Scope (Eagle and code share) ar
205 airtechy : Do you believe that at this stage of the game the pilots would be willing to accept a contract along the same lines that the Delta pilots did upon ex
206 aluminumtubing : You funny guy. If this results in further negotiations and an agreed upon contract I will of course have been wrong. If this just kicks the can a few
207 aluminumtubing : At this point, I really don't know what would be acceptable to the majority. The emotions are high right now. People have to realize that AA is not b
208 klkla : People seem to forget that even if AA is able to get the pilots contract nullified on Friday at some point they will still have to negotiate. If a ne
209 aluminumtubing : Absolutely true, however it would occur after exit from bankruptcy and the company will have very little interest in seriously negotiating. A merger
210 Post contains images crAAzy : I think this is only a slight victory for the pilots. After all, the 1113 filing was significantly more harsh than the most recent agreement that was
211 flyfree727 : interesting.. Less than 15 posts here since this news broke.. Watch when the judge rules on the "revised" 1113, this place will light up like a Christ
212 Post contains links LAXintl : Creditors committee is urging the APA and APFA to come to a consensual contract deals. AMR creditors urge air crew unions to reach consensual contract
213 SonomaFlyer : There is always a chance for more negotiations. However its more likely AA will simply address the judges concerns to the minimum extent they feel nec
214 norcal : The difference is that they are now not locked into a contract for 6 (or is it 8?) years. They can begin negotiations as soon as they exit bankruptcy
215 par13del : Ok, they have been negotiating for years after the old contract expired and they continued right into Chpt.11. If the judge imposes a contract why ex
216 LAXintl : Court news is that if 1113 motion is resubmitted today, its hearing would be no earlier than week of September 3rd. Gives the parties a couple weeks t
217 Post contains links B377 : The Labor sub-committee of the UCC sent out a press release late last evening that strongly suggests the AA and AE unions come to consensual agreement
218 norcal : I'm saying they can begin negotiations right after bankruptcy, not that it will lead to anything anytime soon since negotiations can be dragged out b
219 ckfred : Here's an idea. What if AMR/AA and APA took the last T/A and lopped off several years? You could make the contract open for negotiation, say 2 to 3 ye
220 LAXintl : AA resubmitted its 1113 motion -- hearing is scheduled for September 4th.
221 HPRamper : But how many other airlines operate under the RLA? Sure, it made sense in the early days but is now archaic...still, change comes very slowly when it
222 Post contains links miaami : AA Flight Attendants accepted their contract offer by a 60% YES to 40% No vote. Will this help with a US merger? http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/.
223 etops1 : APFA's statement : Dear members , This morning concluded the balloting to approve or reject the Company's Last, Best, and Final Offer. The results wer
224 LDVAviation : There are just so many things that are wrong with this paragraph. If Laura wrote this herself, it is clear she is not very smart.
225 commavia : There are plenty of complex dynamics at play - as has been the case all through this process, and in particular since the whole Parker-union alliance
226 bennett123 : Can AMR purchase anyone whilst in Chapter 11?.
227 Post contains images crAAzy : Overall a smart move by the flight attendants. Does anyone have details about the revised 1113 motion? Did AA just change the items the judge too issu
228 justplanenutz : Code Share=LBFO Furlough=Current Contract Everything Else=Previous 1113[Edited 2012-08-20 07:06:02]
229 avek00 : While it appears this way at first glance, I think the truth here is far more "political" in nature. I don't think that any AMR union is totally set
230 LAXintl : This weeks regular court business. o Negotiations extension covering 9 MD-80 aircraft – N3515, 496, 498, 516, 517, 584, 587, 588, 589 o Negotiations
231 ckfred : APFA gets a 3% stake in AMR upon exit from bankruptcy. APA, if it were to accept the last T/A (which may or may not be possible) would get 13.5% of th
232 silentbob : They would be in violation of federal law if they tried to do that.
233 ckfred : How so? After AA bought TWA, AA's unions generally imposed what they thought was fair on TWA employees. For the most part, TWA employees were stapled
234 AABB777 : The McCaskill-Bond statute, signed into law in 2007, stipulates that seniority integration issues must be resolved through negotiations and, if that
235 ckfred : And AA employees still want to merge with US? I've talked to a few AA pilots, and basically, it's every US pilot behind the most junior AA pilot, wit
236 Revelation : That doesn't jive with: Not one bit at all. Not sure where the "few AA pilots" you are talking to are getting their info from...
237 aluminumtubing : I am a senior Captain with AA, and that's the first I heard of this..... It's baloney and or wishful thinking on the part of the few AA pilots you sp
238 incitatus : This gets recited in a.net like the gospel that sends all integration issues to resolution heaven. Yet.... look at US. Still here as the worst exampl
239 IndustryInsider : +1 I'm of the opinion that a lot of them are.
240 DarkSnowyNight : I can't imagine perceiving that dinosaur this way either. It's clear more now than ever what a ship of fools that team is. But in fairness, I'd also
241 AABB777 : Exactly, because of this law there has been no integration at US. Which blows my mind that the AA FA union thinks an AMR-US merger is in the best int
242 par13del : Thanks, was not up on the working of the TA In the toxic environment that exist, I'm not sure if the majority would vote for it, they may accept its
243 chepos : . FA integration at US has not been completed because they are still working on different contracts, not because of disputes with seniority. If the m
244 ckfred : More likely, you have pilots who just don't want to get into the US-HP stand-off, especially if merging 3 seniority lists (AA, US, and HP) means that
245 silentbob : The transition agreement was signed before the law in question was passed. Every airline has also learned from that situation, you need to have the c
246 apodino : Supposedly...APAs next move is as soon as Judge Lane throws out the contracts (If he does...which I think will happen as soon as AMR makes the pot swe
247 LDVAviation : The pilots were never released from negotiations. Whatever the case, any work action following the abrogation of their contract would be unlawful. Se
248 Post contains links Fleet Service : Suggested reading, Kasher decision. http://www.twulocal564.org/files/Doc...tial_Arbitration_Award_02Apr29.htm
249 norcal : Which is the absolutely wrong legal decision. The RLA is based on the premise that both sides maintain the status quo of the contract. Management is
250 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: Associated Press Via The Pantagraph Pilots At American Airlines Plan Strike Vote "The Allied Pilots Association said that it would hold a st
251 SJUSXM : The imposed contract has been vetted by the judge and deemed fair to the process of making AA a viable company. The pilots were offered a contract tha
252 Post contains links and images SA7700 : This thread will be locked as it has become quite long. Any posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only. Please f
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