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787 Production Thread Part 4  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 46215 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

This is a continuation of the previous thread (Part 3) which can be found here:

787 Production Thread Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2012 in Civil Aviation)

The previous one was closed as it become too long.
Please continue discussions here

Enjoy the website,

Felipe


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
260 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 46304 times:

Continuing the discussion on the apparent AI drama:

Quote:
Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 260):
With all the AI drama, should Boeing even bother?

You have to wonder. Boeing has spent resources getting airframes ready for delivery which could have gone on other airframes. LN 29 is ready to go other than this issue.

If they didn't deliver it, what would happen? Would someone else buy it?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 46256 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
If they didn't deliver it, what would happen? Would someone else buy it?

Yes, Boeing could reconfigure them for delivery to another customer if they had to.


User currently offlinerotating14 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 663 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 46035 times:

I find the behavior of AI annoying regarding compensation now and looking between couch cushions to pay for the planes. Why didn't they ask for compensation when they couldn't fund the planes that were on the way. IMHO I believe Boeing should say " Hey, here's $xxx,xxx,xxx. Take it and be happy or we'll find buyers for your planes".

User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 45992 times:

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 3):
I find the behavior of AI annoying regarding compensation now and looking between couch cushions to pay for the planes.

Why? AI and Boeing need to sort out their compensation issues before delivery takes place. So the issues are being sorted out now.

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 3):
Why didn't they ask for compensation when they couldn't fund the planes that were on the way.

AI has had financing for these aircraft lined up for 4 years now.

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 3):
MHO I believe Boeing should say " Hey, here's $xxx,xxx,xxx. Take it and be happy or we'll find buyers for your planes".

That would be insanely idiotic. It would probably result in every airline of India being an exclusive Airbus operator. And India is a huge market that Boeing wants its share in.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinerotating14 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 663 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 45736 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 4):
http://investment.contify.com/story/...eas-loans-bridge-financing-6337676

AI knew just as every carrier who has ordered the 787 that it would be late. Compensation is an order but why is it such an issue now when long before they were seeking funding they knew, I reiterate, that they would receive them late. Whey not ask for the compensation then instead of now?? Perhaps my last comment was off keel but you do see my point correct??


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 45703 times:

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 5):

AI knew just as every carrier who has ordered the 787 that it would be late. Compensation is an order but why is it such an issue now when long before they were seeking funding they knew, I reiterate, that they would receive them late. Whey not ask for the compensation then instead of now?? Perhaps my last comment was off keel but you do see my point correct??

Not really. Maybe I'm not understanding the phrasing?

It seems to me that what you are saying is that since AI knew it would be late, they should have negotiated for compensation then. However, AI did not know how late the 787 would be, and negotiating for compensation without knowing the delay period doesn't sounds particularly intelligent.

As for funding, AI's plan from the last 4 years was to take short term loans from SBI consortium banks, and then pay them back after sale-leasebacking the 787s. They have no need for compensation to fulfill this plan.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinedynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 873 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 45676 times:

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 5):
Whey not ask for the compensation then instead of now??

They've been demanding compensation for a long time. It isn't something which just came up.

That said, they have a contract which no doubt sets out compensation terms so it shouldn't really be in doubt.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 4):
That would be insanely idiotic. It would probably result in every airline of India being an exclusive Airbus operator.

Or Air India could behave so poorly that no one will sell them airplanes. It goes both ways. The reported level of compensation they've demanded seems absurd.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 45610 times:

There was some talk of AI getting good prices and then selling these like Ryan Air did, it maybe some clause Boeing wants to put in this deal.

I am sure Ais slots would be popular if this deal never gets signed. 20 or so frames would have many takers, GE engines though.


User currently online817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2388 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 45612 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 8):
I am sure Ais slots would be popular if this deal never gets signed. 20 or so frames would have many takers, GE engines though.

And whats wrong if they have GE engines?



Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 45600 times:

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 7):

Or Air India could behave so poorly that no one will sell them airplanes. It goes both ways. The reported level of compensation they've demanded seems absurd.

Fair enough.

Quoting sweair (Reply 8):
There was some talk of AI getting good prices and then selling these like Ryan Air did, it maybe some clause Boeing wants to put in this deal.

AI won't be selling these frames. The entire longhaul network is dependent on the lower capacity and fuel burn of these birds.

Quoting sweair (Reply 8):

I am sure Ais slots would be popular if this deal never gets signed. 20 or so frames would have many takers, GE engines though.

One side will blink eventually and this deal will go through. Regardless, it still seems to me that the delivery took place Tuesday.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 45503 times:

Maybe AI needs to get their finances in shape first of all..?

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 44904 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Yes, Boeing could reconfigure them for delivery to another customer if they had to.

Would the customer code change? Lets say it would be reconfigured to go to UA, would the code change to 787-822?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 44875 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
Would the customer code change? Lets say it would be reconfigured to go to UA, would the code change to 787-822?

Boeing no longer uses customer codes when it comes to the 787 family.


User currently online817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2388 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 44198 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
Would the customer code change? Lets say it would be reconfigured to go to UA, would the code change to 787-822?
Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
Boeing no longer uses customer codes when it comes to the 787 family.

Even if they had customer codes they wouldn't change, even so it wouldn't make much of a difference.



Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2708 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 43894 times:

Thought I would bring this list over to the new thread, thank you as always to NYC777:

Delivered to Date, 11 aircraft:

L/N 8 - JA801A - 9/25/2011 - NH (ANA)
L/N 24 - JA802A - 10/13/2011 - NH (ANA)
L/N 31 - JA805A - 12/30/2011 - NH (ANA)
L/N 41 - JA807A - 1/12/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 9 - JA804A - 1/13/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 23 - JA822J - 3/25/2012 - JL (JAL)
L/N 33 - JA825J - 3/25/2012 - JL (JAL)
L/N 40 - JA806A - 3/29/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 42 - JA808A - 4/14/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 37 - JA826J - 4/25/2012 - JL (JAL)
L/N 38 - JA827J - 4/25/2012 - JL (JAL)

Next Up:
Shown on "All Things 787" as "Final Preps for Delivery" and have flown it's first flight:

L/N 29 - VT-AND - 5/??/2012 - AI (Air India)
L/N 47 - JA809A - 6/??/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 48 - JA810A - 6/??/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 51 - JA811A - 6/??/2012 - NH (ANA) Awaiting first flight
L/N 56 - JA812A - 6/??/2012 - NH (ANA) Awaiting first flight
L/N 46 - VT-ANI - Mid/2012 - AI (Air India) (Charleston)
L/N 35 - VT-ANH - TBD - AI (Air India)


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5762 posts, RR: 47
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 42130 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 15):
Thought I would bring this list over to the new thread, thank you as always to NYC777:

Delivered to Date, 11 aircraft:

L/N 8 - JA801A - 9/25/2011 - NH (ANA)
L/N 24 - JA802A - 10/13/2011 - NH (ANA)
L/N 31 - JA805A - 12/30/2011 - NH (ANA)
L/N 41 - JA807A - 1/12/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 9 - JA804A - 1/13/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 23 - JA822J - 3/25/2012 - JL (JAL)
L/N 33 - JA825J - 3/25/2012 - JL (JAL)
L/N 40 - JA806A - 3/29/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 42 - JA808A - 4/14/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 37 - JA826J - 4/25/2012 - JL (JAL)
L/N 38 - JA827J - 4/25/2012 - JL (JAL)

Next Up:
Shown on "All Things 787" as "Final Preps for Delivery" and have flown it's first flight:

L/N 29 - VT-AND - 5/??/2012 - AI (Air India)
L/N 47 - JA809A - 6/??/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 48 - JA810A - 6/??/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 51 - JA811A - 6/??/2012 - NH (ANA) Awaiting first flight
L/N 56 - JA812A - 6/??/2012 - NH (ANA) Awaiting first flight
L/N 46 - VT-ANI - Mid/2012 - AI (Air India) (Charleston)
L/N 35 - VT-ANH - TBD - AI (Air India)

Don't forget LN 58, ZA461 for Qatar Airways. I think they'll deliver it next month unless Al Baker has another hissy fit.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineWarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 591 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 41831 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 16):
Don't forget LN 58, ZA461 for Qatar Airways. I think they'll deliver it next month unless Al Baker has another hissy fit.

Do you think it will be a full fledged contractual delivery/fly away or "soft" delivery/release to allow it to be showcased at Farnborough? The article below suggests it will return to the "factory" after the airshow for installation of connectivity features. Can't imagine U-turn Al releasing full payment until the frame is 100% fitted-up for service. Perhaps such factory installation is at a third-party, after-market installer on QA's dime rather than at a Boeing facility.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...87-to-debut-at-farnborough-371836/



DaHjaj jaj QaQ Daghajjaj !!!!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 41756 times:

And it looks like the AI delivery is going to be postponed or cancelled


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 41531 times:

If the AI deal fails, 27 frames need new takers, who would they be? Most of these are post LN20 and quite good compared to the first 19. GE engines would mean it is JAL and others to get early slots  

Would any non customers try to grab some? As many has this all planned maybe early frames is of no interest right now.,


User currently offlinecarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 41479 times:

Amazing that still to date only airlines in Japan have receipt of this bird.

User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1885 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 41480 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 19):
If the AI deal fails, 27 frames need new takers, who would they be?

I'm quite sure that Boeing won't need a new buyer for these, should AI deal fail miserably (which I doubt it will, BTW). Instead, they will be reallocated for delivery to the existing GENx-equipped customers, who are next in line for delivery.



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlinejporterfi From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 41439 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 19):
Would any non customers try to grab some? As many has this all planned maybe early frames is of no interest right now.,

I can see DL going after these. I don't think they would mind having some extra 787s on hand when they start retiring their 767s. Also, AA might want to use these on routes from DFW or MIA to South America, or other places to free up 767s (if the route doesn't merit them), to redeploy the 767s domestically. Now, if only WN was interested in these for their new international service from HOU, but unfortunately that will never happen.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 41401 times:

There was an article about AI selling its very cheap frames to profit greatly like Ryan Air did with some 738s. But I am sure its in the contract with Boeing that this will not be allowed.

How many airlines are out there ready to snatch a good meal? Sort of like a scavenger opportunists..


User currently offlineWarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 591 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 41051 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 23):
sure its in the contract with Boeing that this will not be allowed.

Hard to say which provisions are in what is likely a highly negotiated contract. Hopefully Boeing has a right of first refusal should AI want to sell the frames.

Then again, its well known that Boeing was very aggressive with its pricing during many 787 sales campaigns. Maybe they were loose with contractual provisions as an enticement for customers to sign-up and did not include such restrictions.

Binding arbitration may be the best solution to this dispute as the last thing anyone will want is to see this matter litigated.

Quoting sweair (Reply 23):
here was an article about AI selling its very cheap frames to profit greatly like Ryan Air did with some 738s.


Interesting...If AI has no intention of putting their 787's in service but rather profiting from the high marketability of their frames, then I would suggest that AI is not entitled to much delay compensation.

Perhaps the solution is for (1) AI to do a sale-leaseback with Boeing. AI could preserve cash and Boeing can rack up the delivery while retaining the residual.

Or, (2) for India to buy more C-17's!!!!

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-in-more-c-17s-says-boeing-372562/

[Edited 2012-06-01 09:26:39]

[Edited 2012-06-01 09:31:27]


DaHjaj jaj QaQ Daghajjaj !!!!
25 Post contains links Stitch : I'd like to recommend we keep the Air India discussion in the relevant thread - AI Wont Accept 787 Without $1 Billion Compensation (by AA7295 May 31 2
26 sweair : OK back to topic then, there was zero deliveries in may 2012? Why the hold up with the ANA birds, 2 seemed to be ready to deliver?
27 NYC777 : The problem is that the interiors would have to be switched out unless an existing customer doesn't mind taking the interior that AI had ordered. The
28 NYC777 : It'll be a contractual delivery as Boeing wold not want to risk anything happening to it before delivery (i.e. accident on the way to FB before contr
29 NYC777 : Several....they could go to Qatar, Hainan, JAL among several airlines that have ordered GEnx engines. Boeing will not have any difficulty in placing
30 NYC777 : Extra testing that was needed to be done, not sure what the testing was all about but looks like they're getting set to deliver soon. I think we'll s
31 sweair : Do you know how the very early frames are stored? How do they keep them from collecting moist etc? I´ve seen mold grow in very strange places, only n
32 pygmalion : they are preserved prior to being stored and then are humidity controlled both in the tanks and the fuselage.
33 sweair : Are they monitored too? All this must be a lot of extra work for Boeing?
34 tdscanuck : Swapping an interior is relatively quick; something like a week if the parts are available. I think the more likely scenario would be to take the BFE
35 PlanesNTrains : Were I Boeing, I would make as little noise as possible. Why set yourself up for another show? -Dave
36 Post contains links WarpSpeed : Leeham.net has provide some analyst research on the duration of the required rework for the early deliveries. Very sobering, but I would expect the nu
37 Post contains images sweair : Maybe there will be 7 delivered if the latest issue is resolved. 3 ANA, 3 AI and 1 Qatar. That would be a record month. I think there will be more del
38 Spacepope : ZA506/JA809A/LN47 is back up testing today. Hopefully a delivery is imminent. Last flight of this airframe seems to have been over a week ago.
39 sweair : I read that the SOB fix wouldn't be needed after a certain block point, what LN would that be? It added about 700kg to the frame..
40 WarpSpeed : Its hard to imagine given the glacial pace of the program deliveries to date, but something has to give. There will likely be a push for the June qua
41 Stitch : I believe it's already been incorporated into the shipsets coming into PAE and CHS. Considering the issue was the SOB was too strong, I'd expect the
42 PITingres : I believe it was LN20 and up that incorporated the fix without needing a retrofit.
43 Post contains links WarpSpeed : This article discusses the SOB fixes and corresponding LN numbers for the who, what, when and where.... up to LN15 - SOB mods made in Everett LN16-LN4
44 sweair : I think it was Aspire that wrote about the 700kg weight to fix the SOB issue, something about more titanium needed or something.
45 WarpSpeed : Matt Cawby tweeted that this was to be a C1 flight. So, if all went well, we may see it deliver soon.
46 nomadd22 : I'd understood that the main fix was scalloping parts in certain places to redistribute the loads. I'm having a little trouble understanding that muc
47 scbriml : Not really, given that Boeing has only managed 11 deliveries to date since September last year.
48 workhorse : I am probably asking a dumb question, but I tried hard looking through 787 production threads and couldn't find the answer: who is the next new operat
49 starrion : Qatar needs theirs soon. There are a bunch of JL and ANA birds prepping, but Qatar would need to be within the next few weeks. Or the powers that be i
50 sweair : Qatar will get their first this month, LAN would be next in August, they have a non rework frame in FAL right now, should be able to make it. LOT woul
51 Post contains links WarpSpeed : Strange production development. All things 787 reports that LN66, the purported first frame requiring no rework, has left the FAL. However, it is all
52 Post contains links and images Stitch : Even if it needs re-work, it would have to be stuff that could be easily incorporated, otherwise they would have done it during assembly. As such, if
53 Post contains images sweair : Covered for paint on FAL? That would be a surprise if they can go to paint directly, delivery this month, just to make a point.
54 WarpSpeed : The first article says the cabinet committee will provide final approval "soon." "Government approval" and "soon" typically aren't used in the same s
55 Post contains images PW100 : So this is what our India-friend has been telling time and time again: AI will receive the compensation once the planes are delivered. As no plane ha
56 Post contains images aeroblogger : I agree 100%. And to answer your question, yes GoI forced AI to seek more compensation less than 24 hours before the scheduled delivery that AI and B
57 Stitch : I expect the GoI told Air India what the minimum acceptable compensation was. As the AI Board have accepted said compensation, it must be no less than
58 NYC777 : I'm expecting Boeing to deliver 8 787s this month. 4 to ANA, 3 to AI and 1 to Qatar. Boeing might be ble to push out a 9 787 that would go to ANA. Thi
59 817Dreamliiner : Do you have an estimated date that QR would get there 787? I assume its the aircraft thats all white with the grey rudder on the flightline from Matt
60 Stitch : The plane is expected to be on display at the Farnborough Airshow, which starts 9 July, so likely soon before or soon after will be the formal delive
61 817Dreamliiner : Thanks alot Stitch!
62 sweair : If ln66 is not rework free it would be a huge egg on face as they have talked a lot about this for some time now.
63 NYC777 : Don't have an estimate yet but I'm trying to find out. Yes that's the plane you saw on Matt's site. It still ahs to be painted and go through tests.
64 Post contains links mattcawby : Here it is, I shot it from a helicopter this morning: http://kpae.blogspot.com/
65 817Dreamliiner : Ok thanks, whenever you do find out im sure you'll post it here or on your blog. Saw these a while ago before you posted, looks like another QR 787 p
66 sweair : Someone said at another blog that the tanks now get washed during FAL, saving a step after FAL. I guess every step that can be done at the same time c
67 WarpSpeed : I've always read this as an estimate. You know those Boeing talking heads. I'm not so sure they know what's going on until after it happens. IIRC, so
68 ual747-600 : Nice shot. Where do I apply for the position of helicopter photographer at your business??!! As always Thanks. UAL747-600 aka John from LA - a fan of
69 kanban : We need inside confirmation of this because the factory floor is not designed for that activity whereas the camo (paint) building is. re: the line 66
70 sweair : Yeah I should known better than to spread rumours, sorry. Most stuff posted on forums should be taken with a grain of salt.
71 dynamicsguy : All should be revealed in the next few weeks. I'm pretty sure the floor has drains in position 4, but that they were only put in earlier this year. T
72 NYC777 : Ok looking at a picture posted by moonm of Flickr yesterday vs. what Matt took today, there is work going on LN 66. They have taken off some of the co
73 Post contains links WarpSpeed : Well, it looks like we have confirmation that LN66 will certainly skip the modification center. However, the article below notes that some additional
74 ANM604 : Interesting article in that they had quoted the Indian Aviation minister as saying "they had agreed on compensation" and "AI would be receiving their
75 aeroblogger : It's not a formality. The CCEA very well might reject this agreement. However, I think they realize that it is in AI's best interest to get this issu
76 NYC777 : Well not all airplanes coming off the line are perfectly complete ven in mature programs. There's always a little bit work that's left to be done. Ov
77 mattcawby : It might be parked on the 40-51 apron because there is no room on the flightline for any more airplanes. It is not unusual to see 777s and 767s outsi
78 PHX787 : So UA's birds....any word on delivery dates now?
79 NYC777 : There are two in change incorporation so I surmise they wont' get them until around early fall but before the end of the 3rd quarter.
80 WarpSpeed : The reporter formerly known as the original Flightblogger (now Jon Ostrower at the Wall St. Journal) has an article in today's WSJ with some more det
81 NYC777 : Two of those airplanes are scheduled for flights today including the first flight of ZA509 (LN 56).
82 WarpSpeed : Awesome. Thanks for all the updates on the program. I'm a frequent visitor to All Things 787. I noticed that a 787 has visited KBIL and KGTF recently
83 NYC777 : That's ZA005. Boeing is using it for test flights (for Boeing purposes only). It's not related, as far as I know, to any certification activities.
84 sweair : What will become of ZA005 and 006? Anyone that knows? Will the ZA003 get retired after its world tour?
85 NYC777 : ZA004,ZA005, and ZA006 are to be re-worked and delivered to BBJ customers though there are only two outstanding customers for the 787-8 BBJ and 3 for
86 sweair : It must be the first program where 3 of the first aircraft didn't get sold?
87 Post contains links WarpSpeed : All Things 787 has a new post that provides an interesting analysis of what to expect of the 787 inventory at KPAE going forward. His production and d
88 Stitch : The Chinese carriers did reject their pre-LN20 deliveries and I believe JQ might have been scheduled for a couple, as well.
89 dynamicsguy : I believe that would be the first flight of an airframe after the most recent blockpoint. Interesting. ANA has already taken 2 of these early builds
90 sunrisevalley : That does not necessarily mean that LN 56 was a block point... or does it ?
91 Rheinbote : According to an interview with Scott Fancher I would assume the last block point was LN50, the next will be LN90.
92 kanban : I suspect we have dual meaning concepts here.. Block points would be wher there is a major system or process change, milestone would be having all the
93 sweair : If they find a way to make a part say 50 kg lighter, will that be a block point or just an incremental advance?
94 kanban : really depends on the part and the system it's part of.. say the could shave 25 lbs off the wing tip, it would be incremental based on when the contr
95 dynamicsguy : I'm not sure if this was in response to my comment or not, but to clarify I meant that this is the first airplane with a line number higher than the
96 MEA-707 : Did they fly yet? Nothing so far on the Puget Sound website
97 Viscount724 : Are they not used even internally on any paperwork etc? I hope there's at least some way of keeping track of the original operator for historical pur
98 kanban : not specifically, however over the last week it seemed the two were getting used interchangeably... my definition/explanation is more for routine pro
99 tdscanuck : OEM's keep track of all past owners of every airframe, when they can get the data...there's no risk that not using customer codes will cause any prob
100 NYC777 : 507 flew, 509 did not.
101 mattcawby : A flight crew is on JA812A right now doing a preflight for a B1
102 sweair : Any bets on how many deliveries in june? ANA has about 4 very ripe frames?
103 NYC777 : ZA509 is going to make its first flight today and ZA237 is flying back to Charleston after being painted. ZA237 will also be doing another flight test
104 sweair : ZA 506,507,508,509 should be ready by the end of this month? All ANAs That leaves ZA 233,236,237,461 and ZA135 for July?
105 NYC777 : The three for Air India is supposed to be delivered this month. AI has so much as said they'll take them in June.
106 Post contains images sweair : OK so maybe 7 in June? A record month! 3 was the previous record? Its a little bit like watching a drama unfold on TV We could start betting on this
107 Post contains images kanban : more like watching grass grow... However I will be glad when they reach a rate where keeping this thread current is no longer possible... imagine the
108 NYC777 : No flights out of Everett today due to a very large spill of Jet A at Everett. Runway is closed.
109 sweair : What other traffic is at Everett besides Boeing?
110 Stitch : General aviation, mostly.
111 PHXA340 : Did anyone ever verify if LN 66 went straight from the factory to pre-flight testing with no re-work ? Or is Boeing not quite there yet ?
112 cmf : It is amazing how crazy things get in the way. There just is no way to cover some things.
113 sweair : Seattle has 2 airports, Boeing field and Tacoma? Everett is just some small local airport?
114 Post contains links and images WarpSpeed : Victory has been declared! Only about 300 very small jobs remained after it was pushed out the door. About 100 more than targeted and way less than t
115 Post contains links mattcawby : The fuel spill was at the rail terminal, a train hit a tanker truck. http://kpae.blogspot.com/2012/06/paine-field-june-11.html This was not the cause
116 tdscanuck : Seattle has way more than two. SeaTac is the only airport with large jet commercial service. Everett has GA, charter, and Boeing. Renton has GA and B
117 sweair : I read up on Boeing, they have many fields they use, Everett, Renton, Boeing Field and that very long field in the east. I also read about the Volcano
118 tdscanuck : The long one just to the east is Moses Lake, Washington (aka "Grant County International"). The one farther to the east, and less used, is Glasgow, M
119 NYC777 : I stand corrected.
120 Post contains images ER757 : Renton is at very low risk of suffering any direct effects of an eruption of Mt Rainier. As Tom mentioned above, if a lahar made it that far (about 6
121 Post contains links WarpSpeed : Looks like the Surge Line is complete but will not be churning out new builds until the fourth quarter of 2012. Instead, the line will focus on change
122 starrion : FTA: "Boeing delivered the first "clean" 787 that did not need any post-assembly changes to Air India on 7 June." Really? Did I miss something?
123 Stitch : The only AI news I am seeing is that they are planning to dry-lease their 777-200LR fleet and that the GoI could decide on whether or not to accept t
124 PHX787 : We haven't heard anything from the whole AI 787 delivery debacle yet either.
125 kanban : Is the a Charleston Blog that will be following 787 developments down there similar to Matt's Payne Field Blog?
126 NYC777 : Just put up another 787 update on the blog.
127 NYC777 : 787 line move tomorrow with two 787s going into paint hangar.
128 sweair : LN67 going to paint before LN66? Why is this? Did they manage to fix more jobs on FAL on the later frame? The heavy tech shop at Everett, do they pain
129 frigatebird : Not really sure using a completely ready surge line for changes/rework to existing frames is that positive news. The pace of the change/modification/
130 sweair : Maybe the surge line would be too much for the contractors delivery schedule? They are not yet ready to go above 3½ frames a month? And as many have
131 PW100 : Thanks for that. Now that the program seems to getting under steam, your blog gets more interesting by the day. Thanks a lot for all the good work! I
132 dkny : Any news on Deliveries for Ethiopian
133 Post contains links and images tak : I am looking onward to seeing how many 787s are delivered this month. I am optimistic it will be close to 7! Hopefully the Air India situation will se
134 aeroblogger : I don't see the comedy? Compared to the 787s (which are replacing these 777s), the 777s are most definitely fuel guzzling.
135 NYC777 : Surge will assembled both the -8 and -9 as will the main assembly line in 40-26 and Charleston.
136 Post contains images tak : I agree with you that the 787 is more fuel efficient than the 777, but to call the 777 a gas guzzler does not really square with reality. Before the
137 Stitch : So CHS will now also built 787-9s? The original plan was to have CHS only handle the 787-8 to allow PAE to do both.
138 NYC777 : It's my assumption that they would do both.
139 sweair : I still think 789 will start on the surge line, that way no hold up effects the other lines?
140 NYC777 : First 789 will start assembly on the surge line is how I'm reading it. All three lines I believe will produce all 787 versions. I just got word that
141 aeroblogger : Calling the 777 a gas guzzler is just the sensationalism that anybody who follows the Indian media has come to expect. But what they meant is that re
142 kanban : could not find a contact me method on the blog, and was wanting to suggest a side chart explaining all the new color codes.
143 Stitch : Or perhaps Green for Delivered, Yellow for Change Incorporation/Prep and Red for Stored?
144 RobK : Current 787 info from my sources if anyone cares - JA809A planned del Jun 18. JA810A planned del Jun 19. VT-ANH planned del still tbd. VT-AND planned
145 WarpSpeed : They have already...The current production rate is 3.5 per month. I would guess that any further ramp-up will have been planned out by now and the "t
146 sweair : What is the hold up with the ANA frames, 0 in may and now just 3 in june...They have been ready for a long time now.
147 PW100 : Yes, you are quite right. I believe LN 62 was rolled out on 03 May. LN 67 was rolled out today? So that makes 5 line pushes in 41 days, which is one
148 WarpSpeed : Albaugh noted during the Boeing Investor Day conference that the 787 was receiving a FMC software update due to "spurious readings." Several of ANA's
149 PM : Is it known which of these are configured for domestic operations and which for long haul?
150 Someone83 : No they haven't. If they had been ready, they would have been delivered!
151 Post contains images mattcawby : One was moved out of the 40-26 to the 40-51 apron
152 sweair : Ok marking words, I meant, rework was done they had their first flights, now awaiting a FAA decision. The physical frames are ready, new software loa
153 dynamicsguy : None of this is accurate. 2 of them have made customer flights, and the third's customer flight isn't being held waiting for anything other than the
154 Post contains images tarheelwings : Question: In looking at Matt's picture, I noticed that the windows for all these planes are taped up, is that SOP? This isn't an indication that they
155 Stitch : This appears to be the case. LN66 came out with her windows and doors sealed, but once parked, they started to remove them. I am thinking now that th
156 sweair : Ok, but would the FAA sign off have any influence here?
157 RobK : JA809A is in a non-standard domestic config of 335 seats.
158 Stitch : NH will have two domestic 787-8 configs: The first is 264 seats [12P | 252Y] with Economy in 2+4+2 and the second is 335 seats [12P | 323Y] with Econo
159 Post contains images sweair : 335 seats in a 788! Not far from LHs 386 in the 748
160 Post contains links WarpSpeed : Is this because the later builds are lighter and would be able to carry more passengers efficiently? The heavier birds, compensating with fewer passe
161 Stitch : I don't know what kind of baggage and cargo loads NH has on domestic missions, but 71 extra seats would add a bit to the OEW and those passengers and
162 Post contains images Revelation : Thanks Matt for the excellent photo, and of course the countless others you've shared. I'm getting a "drug-like rush" just looking at it!
163 Ruscoe : For me the most important aspect of this very nice photograph is that all frames have their engines attached Ruscoe
164 Post contains images SCL767 : Nice to see LAN's first 787-8 with engines! Very excited for LN68 to be painted in LAN's livery! Thanks for sharing this fantastic photograph!
165 sweair : LN68 is the next out of the factory, in about 8 days or so. Will this be LANs first delivered frame? I think its about 8.2 days between line moves now
166 Post contains links SCL767 : Yes, this will be the first B-787-8 delivered to LAN. LAN expects to incorporate the first B-787-8 into the fleet during August. LAN’s first 787 Dr
167 PM : Thanks.
168 carpethead : Actually, that will be the standard domestic configuration. The earlier deliveries with 264 seats is just a temporary one. To nit pick, its actually
169 Mortyman : When can we expect to see the first pictures of 787 for Norwegian at the plant ? It is supposed to be delivered to Norwegian end 2012 / beginning of 2
170 ba319-131 : - Will the early birds be reconfigured or will these remain as is due to early build/weight?
171 Post contains images SCL767 : Today, LAN released some photos of its first Boeing 787-8 (LN68) in the factory: Photo Courtesy of LAN Airlines S.A.
172 Post contains images Stitch : I want to see it after it's left the paint hangar.
173 SCL767 : We're all excited to see LAN's livery on the 787 Dreamliner! I'm sure that LAN will be releasing more photos when it's painted and will be extremely
174 starrion : I presume since we are talking about LN68 as LAN's 'first' aircraft, that they have declined LN 10 and 16? Or are those two going to be delivered much
175 NYC777 : They will be delivered later after undergoing chane incorporation.
176 carpethead : Most likely they will be re-configured. These aircraft also have PTVs, and no real need to have them on domestic flights. ANA is going on similar lin
177 starrion : OK- that begs a question then. Lion reportedly bought five of the "terrible teens" If LAN is keeping their two, are the ANA frames the ones being reje
178 NYC777 : Within the block of LN 10 to LN 19 there are 6 frames earmarked for ANA, 2 for LAN and 2 for RAM.
179 WarpSpeed : Of the bunch listed here, ANA is seemingly in the best bargaining position to compel Boeing to take back the Terrible Teens in favor of later builds
180 Stitch : Well NH have already kicked two to the curb (LN1 and LN2), but they did take LN8 and LN9 and are about to take LN7 and together they are the most ter
181 tdscanuck : You can't agree to be the launch customer and get a giant discount on the understand that, as launch customer, you assume more risk because you're ge
182 Post contains images Stitch : True, but Boeing probably didn't make that decision totally on it's own volition. Yes, I couldn't find my old list and I thought it was NH (1+2), NW
183 tdscanuck : I'm sure they would've sold them if they could, but I never saw any indication that it was because customers said they wouldn't take them ("Kicked to
184 Post contains images WarpSpeed : You can if your OEM can't deliver within 2.5 years of promised EIS. The conventional rules of engagement went sour a couple of years ago. One could e
185 Post contains images PHXA340 : So terrible that ANA is getting a 21% fuel burn reduction compared to the 767 , they should be outraged !
186 NYC777 : Just found out that LN 47 will deliver tomorrow and fly away on the 21st, LN 48 will deliver on the 21st and fly away on the 22nd.[Edited 2012-06-19 1
187 tak : Any word on when Government of India will decide on the compensation offer/agreement ? I am guessing that is still holding up the AI 787 deliveries. I
188 NYC777 : Mu sources have said that delivery is TBD on the AI 787s.
189 aeroblogger : CCEA has referred the decision to another committee to study the effects of accepting the compensation payments on various things. This has held up t
190 Post contains images sweair : It looks like only 3 for june then? A fair bit from the 7 I hoped for. I am glad I did not make a bet with you guys I say 4 or 5 for july, any bets?..
191 Post contains images tak : Thank you for sharing that information. I could not find any information in the press and was starting to wonder what was taking so long. I am hoping
192 Revelation : Translation: The hog has been slaughtered, and now the fight for the bits begins...
193 NYC777 : The first 787 for Qatar Airways should be coming out today from the paint hangar.
194 817Dreamliiner : Awesome! Im hoping Matt Cawby will get a few shots of it
195 WarpSpeed : Do you think this involves some party making payoffs to gain approval? Or, am I too naive to have even asked....[Edited 2012-06-20 08:29:09]
196 Post contains links ual747-600 : Qatar 787 picture thanks to Matt Cawby. Great looking aircraft in those colors. http://paineairport.com/kpae5153.htm UAL747-600[Edited 2012-06-20 17:2
197 817Dreamliiner : Agreed, Just saw the pic a few minutes ago, looks pretty good!
198 PHX787 : Wow it looks amazing! When will QR take it?
199 NYC777 : LN 47 delivered yesterday adn will fly away today. LN 48 will deliver today and fly away tomorrow. All to ANA.
200 WarpSpeed : Hopefully, we will see at least one more delivery next week. Going by All Things 787 production and disposition chart, it appears LN56 will be next.
201 starrion : Once we see frames actually get to the customer in two or three weeks after exiting the FAL will the program have "turned the corner". LN66 hasn't del
202 Post contains links Someone83 : http://www.flightradar24.com/2012-06-22/05:44/ANA9397 JA809A (LN47) in its delivery flight to HND
203 sweair : Why do 809,810 and then 812 get delivered in june and then 811 in july? Different cabins?
204 ebj1248650 : Others might take exception to this, but I believe QATAR's colors look real sharp. Their 787 is gorgeous!
205 Post contains links WarpSpeed : United has announced when they expect their first 787: September with anticipated revenue flights in Q4... http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...sept
206 starrion : So between now and September we will see LAN?, Qatar, United and (hopefully) Air India added as new customers. Any others?
207 SCL767 : LAN expects to receive LN 68 by August.
208 Post contains links mattcawby : Lee Karas got a killer air photo of Qatar Airways A7-BCB this morning. http://planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=1149232
209 RobK : JA810A delayed. Pencil in 24th hand over.
210 Post contains images ER757 : Great shot, I like it better than the earlier photo link posted since the berm isn't in the way. That, and of course this view shows off those amazin
211 kanban : Both this picture and Matt's show an unusual mobile scaffolding around the nose at cockpit window height.. Karas' picture appears to be a windshield
212 mattcawby : That's a windshield stand used when the windows need to be cleaned. I don't know what the Zorro mask is about.
213 dynamicsguy : Ethiopian.
214 tdscanuck : Blackout curtains. Used to verify proper operation and lack of light leaks in the flight deck. Tom.
215 PHX787 : There's an ANA 787 visible on the CHS ramp when you look CHS up on google maps...what L.N. is that for?
216 WarpSpeed : Hainan? According to All Things 787, Hainan's first 787 is in Position 1 on the Everett FAL. At a 3.5/month production rate, she should be due out by
217 southwest737500 : This might be a side question. How many total 787 can charleston and Everett produce a month
218 Post contains links Rheinbote : As many as supported by the pre-assembly and integration line for mid-bodies in Charleston. AFAIK the output currently is 3,5 mid-bodies per month fr
219 Rheinbote : What is the anticipated 'steady state' field flow for the 787, i.e. timespan between roll-out and delivery, once there is no rework anymore?
220 sweair : 4 weeks maybe? There are about 11 787s that is in pre delivery mode, various tasks to do, engine runs, fueling tests and wash, Boeing test flights an
221 kanban : I would venture 3 weeks or less once all lines and the field cleared of early units..
222 tdscanuck : That's LN2 (ZA002). It was down in CHS for quite a while helping them validate their facilities and procedures ahead of their first rollout. Tom.
223 Rheinbote : I thought LN1 and LN2 are in open storage at Palmdale?
224 Stitch : LN2 is now at Palmdale, but it was at CHS when that image was taken for Google Maps and they haven't updated the data with a new image as of yet.[Edi
225 NYC777 : L/N 70 which was going to go to Air India is now going to Japan Airlines. It's currently in position 3 in 40-26 and is the 8th 787 built for JAL.
226 Post contains images Stitch : Do you expect the same for LN72 at CHS? Guess one advantage of JL's new generic livery is that all you need to do is slap new titles on a white plane
227 Post contains images sunrisevalley : Presumably all the seats and cabin fitout are available to make the switch. An element "of in your face AI " in this switch or is AI willing to wait
228 Stitch : AI was working on securing the 15% financing they needed for their first seven planes (the other 85% is being financed by the US Export-Import Bank).
229 Post contains images astuteman : That's one beautiful plane Pardon the ask (on a production thread and all ) but how many 787 deliveries altogether will that make? Rgds
230 sweair : So AI still hasn't got its finances in order? I bet JAL cheers, they have 2 in rework, but this will be a fresh off the line. AI has 3 frames waiting,
231 GSPflyer : There was an Air India 787 doing touchdowns at GSP today. Registration is VT-ANI.
232 Stitch : With those two deliveries, we're at 10: 7 for NH and 3 for JL.
233 United787 : Delivered to Date, 13 aircraft: L/N 8 - JA801A - 9/25/2011 - NH (ANA) L/N 24 - JA802A - 10/13/2011 - NH (ANA) L/N 31 - JA805A - 12/30/2011 - NH (ANA)
234 NYC777 : Actually it's four for JAL and 9 for NH. 13 total.
235 sweair : Things are picking up, as they have almost as many in pre delivery now that they have delivered so far. I expect a fair number of reworked frames to a
236 NYC777 : Don't think so about 72 but I'll check.
237 Rheinbote : AI couldn't serve the ExIm loans either, so they depend on a sale-lease-back transaction to make the deal work. The problem right now is finding a le
238 Post contains images astuteman : Thanks. Gads. Wiki is showing up-to-date data. Whatever next? Rgds
239 sweair : At what point will AI lose their frames? B must be getting tired of thier mess? Indian pride not confessing to weak finances, there must be plenty of
240 aeroblogger : AI has its financing figured out... The problem is that CCEA (Government Committee) approval is required before management can accept the aircraft, a
241 Post contains images Rheinbote : Any details? Me curious...
242 aeroblogger : Sorry, can't share many details. Financing is mostly ExIm, and the rest of the loans are taken with Government of India guarantees. If a bond rating
243 sweair : But why did they offload a frame to JAL? Will there be more frames offloaded?
244 Post contains links WarpSpeed : First flight of LN58/ZA461 for Qatar Airways today. The Boeing folks have been known to "write" messages or designs using the flight path tracker. I'm
245 Post contains links NYC777 : ZA507 (LN 48) will be leaving for Haneda tonight : http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ANA9397
246 Post contains images sweair : I am surprised how quiet QR has been about the 788, seeing how they created a lot of noise about the 748F? I would be very nervous if I was a Boeing s
247 petera380 : This may be an error as it was LN047 (ZA506) that was handed over June 20th. No date for LN048 yet?
248 BlueSky1976 : FYI: LO will take its second - built 787-8 - SP-LRB - as their first delivered frame in November. SP-LRA will be undergoing change incorporation and i
249 dynamicsguy : LN 47 had already flown away and LN 48 has already been delivered. The information is correct.
250 NYC777 : LN 47 delivered on June 20th fly away on June 21st. LN 48 delivered on June 24th fly away on June 25th. My info is correct.
251 Stitch : With the 747-8, the original compensation deal was negotiated between Boeing and Cargolux before QR became a major investor. So once QR came on board
252 Post contains links WarpSpeed : Maybe more than anticipated given ANA's and JAL's experience to date.... AviationWeek - 787 Better Than Expected Fuel Burn (by pygmalion Jun 26 2012
253 Post contains links and images rotating14 : QR's first 787 had it first flight on Monday!! http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rTCeudbfw4...-8/s1600/B787%2BA7-BCB%2BQATAR.jpg
254 NYC777 : Yes, we know. LN 7 is now out on the flightline in stall 102, can someone get a picture of it. It should be painted. LN 66 went into paint today (45-
255 Post contains images lightsaber : Mods: A new thread soon please. I find it interesting to see such an early surge in GE customers: GE: QR, UA, AI, JAL RR: ANA, LAN About in line with
256 WarpSpeed : If so, could we change the new thread title to "787 Production & Delivery"? Much to discuss w/r/t deliveries these days!
257 NYC777 : LN 72 is still going to Air India.
258 Post contains images PHX787 : I agree! have they gotten anything squared away with this whole billion dollar fiasco?
259 Post contains images United787 : I agree and I started the original thread...
260 Post contains links LipeGIG : As this becomes too long, we are archiving the thread and a new one become available, so the discussions can go on Link to the Thread number 5 787 Pro
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