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BA Operating A Hub Outside Of London  
User currently offlineshilenb From UK - England, joined Oct 2012, 27 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11693 times:

With BA receiving the 787 next year, is there a possibility of BA operating routes from outside of London from secondary cities like Manchester or Birmingham to other cities in the world as the whole object of the 787 is to connect secondary cities to major cities?

Could we see routes like:

BHX - PVG which have strong manufacturing bases operate?

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2963 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11618 times:
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No , not a change .

Hell will freeze sooner.

Those early 787s will replace the 767s on long haul and won't add much capacity .

Indeed it will be 2015 -2017 before any sight of extra long haul frames will be seen.


User currently offlinedanielmyatt From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11514 times:

They phased out the BHX hub in the 2000's, and more recent attempts at a "hub" was with BA connect, which soon failed and was bought up by FlyBe... We get no BA service at BHX now apart from the odd charter.

It would be nice if we could have the BA flight from Terminal 2 to JFK back, seeing a 767 on the EuroHub was a sight to behold.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9497 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11514 times:

Long haul from BHX or MAN is better served by airlines other than BA. Those airports are best served long haul from airlines like UA and EK. The reason is that BA will never have much feed into BHX or MAN. All the feed can go through LHR. So they would exclusively depend on O/D point to point. MAN and BHX are too small to have significant O/D to any individual market apart from possibly NYC. Therefore it does not work for BA to operate long haul out of MAN or BHX. The same is true for any airline with a main hub within reasonable distance of those airports.

However for UA in EWR or EK in DXB, they connect to a plethora of destinations that aren't served nonstop from LHR. They have O/D and also connecting traffic. That puts them at an advantage over BA (or EI/LH/AF/KL or any other airline that wants to start long haul from BHX or MAN).

People complain that BA has turned into LHR only, and that is true and justifiable. They can't serve the greater UK market long haul because they are at a competitive disadvantage over airlines with hubs in other long haul destinations.

The only European airline with a legitimate dual hub operation is LH in FRA and MUC. Others have tried like BCN & MAD for Iberia or MXP & FCO for Alitalia, but it just does not work. Secondary markets are better left to operators outside of the airline based in the home country.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineTWA85 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11092 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 3):

You do bring up a valid point. However what is so puzzeling is that as BA is so constrained at LHR why not open up another hub in MAN and/or BHX to handle connectiong traffic which would open up room for more O&D capacity at LHR? Take BA's LHR-JFK service for instance. Without any actual numbers, probably 7 out of 10 seats any given flight is filled by an O&D passanger leaving room for only 3 out of 10 connectiong passengers. If a passanger in DUS wanted to fly on BA to JFK, there could be a limited amount of seats to choose from on the connecting flight from LHR-JFK. If BA opened up a hub in MAN and/or BHX, the connecting passangers would have more options to choose from, and there naturally would be more options for O&D passangeres to/from LHR as well as a result of less passangers connecting in through LHR.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10856 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 4):
You do bring up a valid point. However what is so puzzeling is that as BA is so constrained at LHR why not open up another hub in MAN and/or BHX to handle connectiong traffic which would open up room for more O&D capacity at LHR? Take BA's LHR-JFK service for instance. Without any actual numbers, probably 7 out of 10 seats any given flight is filled by an O&D passanger leaving room for only 3 out of 10 connectiong passengers. If a passanger in DUS wanted to fly on BA to JFK, there could be a limited amount of seats to choose from on the connecting flight from LHR-JFK. If BA opened up a hub in MAN and/or BHX, the connecting passangers would have more options to choose from, and there naturally would be more options for O&D passangeres to/from LHR as well as a result of less passangers connecting in through LHR.

With respect, it's far more complicated than that.

Trying to divert connecting passengers away from LHR to a parallel hub elsewhere would actually reduce choice for LHR O&D passengers because there wouldn't be the volume to support the multiple frequencies on JFK, ORD etc. BA would then have to reduce frequencies on, say, LHR-JFK. In turn it would lose a competitive advantage of frequency over Delta, Virgin, United et al.

The relative volumes of O&D and connecting pax are also very fluid. When the UK economy is strong BA tends to focus on high yield O&D traffic. When the UK economy is weak and the Euro strong relative to the GBP, BA in its on words "turns on the taps" and focuses marketing activity in Europe to compensate for weak UK demand and to take advantage of currency advantages fares sold in Euros.

BA has tried operating a second hub at LGW before. Hubs are expensive complicated operations and even with LHR's constraints BA setting up another hub in the UK isn't going to happen unless there is a major rebalancing of the UK economy away from London and The South East (unlikely to happen in my lifetime).

[Edited 2012-06-01 15:32:28]

[Edited 2012-06-01 15:34:48]

[Edited 2012-06-01 15:35:22]

User currently offlineLX138 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10643 times:

This topic again, and it took until June for the first one of 2012!

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 5):
Trying to divert connecting passengers away from LHR to a parallel hub elsewhere would actually reduce choice for LHR O&D passengers because there wouldn't be the volume to support the multiple frequencies on JFK, ORD etc. BA would then have to reduce frequencies on, say, LHR-JFK. In turn it would lose a competitive advantage of frequency over Delta, Virgin, United et al.

I don't think he was implying that volume be reduced to be aiding the other hub - it's likely the 2nd hub, and I'm sure he meant this - would be using additional aircraft on top of what exists today. It's also very valid as an idea, alas not necessarily as a viable model.

When capacity is reached on connecting flight tickets such as CDG-LHR-JFK and MAD-LHR-HKG you simply revert the next ticket availability to CDG-MAN-JFK and MAD-MAN-HKG. Of course the European flights are the hardest part of the equation as BA has to operate a shorthaul hub base for the sake of feed alone, as rarely do they want to compete with the Lo-co's, not least to and from 'low yield' MAN.



StarWorld Team - The ultimate airline alliance
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3198 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10510 times:

Oh dear GOd not this again. There must have been a MILLION threads asking this one.
They couldn't make a dual hub in London work, lost millions hubbing at MAN and BHX and eventually dropped all P2P outside of London. I think they've lost enough money in regional flying for one lifetime.


User currently offlineplanejamie From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10465 times:

Yeah, the day after hell freezes over, pigs fly etc... BA abolished the regional operations years ago and looking at it, we've not had one of these posts for a month so it's about time...

Seriously, no, no no no no no. As much as it would be great etc as I live near MAN, it won't happen. They have regular shuttle service for those wishing to fly long haul, that with Terminal 5 now offer a good connection...

Cue the next "with the extra aircraft BA will have after this BD merger, will we see more service out of MAN/GLA/BHX/EDI" thread...   


User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 702 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9697 times:

They effectively already do, that was one of the main drivers behind the IB purchase and IAG being formed....a hub and spare capacity at MAD. BHX/MAN are a pipe dream, ain't never going to happen.

User currently offlineScottishDavie From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2011, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6431 times:

From the late 1980s until its closure I was a regular user of the Eurohub in BHX travelling from my home in Scotland to various destinations in Europe, principally Germany. If you had to change aircraft it wasn't a bad way to do it but thanks mainly to LCCs there are now far more direct flights from so-called regional airports to European destinations. For example nowadays U2 fly EDI-MUC and GLA-SXF, LH fly EDI-DUS and EDI-FRA, 4U fly EDI-CGN and so on. I've nothing against either BA or BHX but even if the hub still existed I wouldn't be using it. There is no way BA will establish a hub anywhere else now that they have LHR T5

User currently offlinefaddypainter From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6027 times:

BA at BHX actually was a profitable concern once upon a time with the Eurohub operation. This terminal was built specifically at BA's request to house their operation and that of AA. It was also significant enough to influence BA fleet policy to an small extent, as BA ordered the A319's specifically for this base, but not long after arrival they were shifted down to LHR and quickly replaced with Avro RJ's.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter to BA if BHX makes a profit, if they can shift the assets to London where they can realise greater economies of scale and make twice the profit there. And don't forget this was when oil was cheap. it just would not be feasible today.

It is a shame there isn't even a token OneWorld presence here any more considering what once was.  
But that's besides the point...


User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2264 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5869 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 7):
Oh dear GOd not this again. There must have been a MILLION threads asking this one

later than expected, but right on cue.


User currently offlineScottishDavie From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2011, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5486 times:

Quoting faddypainter (Reply 11):
BA ordered the A319's specifically for this base, but not long after arrival they were shifted down to LHR and quickly replaced with Avro RJ's.

Are you sure it wasn't Embraer RJs? I remember flying GLA-BHX on an A319 then transferring to an ERJ-145 for the onward leg to MUC. If my memory is correct the ERJ was operated by Brymon in full BA colours. I don't recall ever flying on an Avro RJ to or from BHX although at various times I was on BAC 111-500s, B737-200s and -400s, ATPs, A319s and ERJ-145s. I was sorry when the Eurohub closed although as I said in my earlier post there is much less need for it nowadays


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3198 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5319 times:

Quoting by738 (Reply 12):
later than expected, but right on cue.

Forgive me I think I am becoming Victor Meldrew. "I don't believe it!"

Quoting ScottishDavie (Reply 13):
Are you sure it wasn't Embraer RJs?

After flying the BAC111 for what seemed forever, they replaced them with ex LHR B737-236s which were just as noisy whereas the competition like Lufthansa and Air France had already upgraded to CFM powered B737s and A320 series aircraft. When BA finally decided to drag the regions into more modern equipment, they went with new and leased (with one exception being ex DI ) B737-300s for MAN and brand new A319s for BHX. The change of policy on the short haul B767 / B757 mix at LHR soon after meant the A319s went to LHR and BHX got the ex LGW CityFlyer Express RJ100s which had just been bought out. The ERJ-145s came when British Regional and Brymon merged into BA CitiExpress with the rump of Regional. This was all then dropped into BA Connect and sold to flybe.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7391 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5047 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 4):
However what is so puzzeling is that as BA is so constrained at LHR why not open up another hub in MAN and/or BHX to handle connectiong traffic which would open up room for more O&D capacity at LHR?

In practice it has not worked like that.

For example several times, most recently in March 2008, BA have started up a LGW-JFK service. With eight flights a day operating out of LHR - just 40 miles round the M25 from LGW - to the same destination, one might have thought that that flight would be successful. But it was withdrawn in early October 2010.

Similarly over the years BA has operated direct flights to JFK from BHX, GLA and MAN. TriStars were initially flown on these routes. They were replaced by three especially configured (C36 / Y186) 763s, G-BNWN, 'WO and 'WU, in March 1993. With loads not that good from BHX and GLA especially configured 752s (J20 / Y141), G-BPEC and 'EE, replaced the 763s in January 1995. Again this was not a success and the services were both withdrawn in late October 1998. Meanwhile the 763 MAN-JFK flight continued to operate. However this service was finally withdrawn in September 2008.

While most of the above services were operating BA was also operating short haul flights into the three airports which could have acted as feeder flights. Today these short haul flights have also been discontinued probably because of the competitive impact of the LCCs, particularly FR and U2.


User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3867 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4992 times:

Quoting BD338 (Reply 9):
effectively already do, that was one of the main drivers behind the IB purchase and IAG being formed....a hub and spare capacity at MAD. BHX/MAN are a pipe dream, ain't never going to happen

W respect to point to point routes from the U.S. to secondary UK markets, probably best to leave that to AA since the two have antitrust immunity.


User currently offlineScottishDavie From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2011, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4485 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 14):
After flying the BAC111 for what seemed forever, ....... This was all then dropped into BA Connect and sold to flybe.

Many thanks for such an interesting and informative response.   


User currently onlineLentini2001 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4297 times:

I can see hell freezing over before BHX gets picked for anything.

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12892 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3743 times:
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Quoting shilenb (Thread starter):
s there a possibility of BA operating routes from outside of London

Almost certain:

Quoting BD338 (Reply 9):
They effectively already do, that was one of the main drivers behind the IB purchase and IAG being formed....a hub and spare capacity at MAD. BHX/MAN are a pipe dream, ain't never going to happen.

That is exactly what will happen. MAD will be BA's second hub.

Quoting us330 (Reply 16):
probably best to leave that to AA since the two have antitrust immunity.

Or BA will have the option with the MAX/NEO to work with AA. Soon there will be an option with a much lower cost per flight than a widebody.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 14):
After flying the BAC111 for what seemed forever,

I don't think the BAC 1-11's that operated out of Birmingham, were actually BA...(?)

I don't know if anyone ever remembers, but Maersk Air UK operated quite a sizeable BA franchise out of BHX, with their entire fleet being ex-BA BAC 1-11's, for some time. Towards the late 1990's, early 2000's, they updated some of the fleet with 737-500's, before switching entirely CRJ-200's and 700's.

Towards the end of the BA franchise they opened up like BHX-ATH with a CRJ-700... (Ouch!)

The BA franchise eventually vanished, after a management buy out from parent company Maersk Air to become Duo Airways... They tried to become a high quality, low cost carrier, aiming their market towards the business passenger, the business eventually failed and shut down in 2004.

This business model does not seem to have worked in the UK as other carriers like Debonair also failed.


User currently offlineScottishDavie From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2011, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3027 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 20):
I don't think the BAC 1-11's that operated out of Birmingham, were actually BA...(?)

Somebody who knows BHX better than me may be able to confirm or correct this but my understanding is that Maersk didn't come on the scene until around 1993 after BA themselves had retired their 111 fleet. The sources I have say that Maersk only operated six 111s, four Series 400s and two Series 500s, in BA colours. BA had been flying 111s from BHX for some considerable time before 1993 - I personally flew on BHX based 111s in the 1980s.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3198 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2832 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 20):
I don't think the BAC 1-11's that operated out of Birmingham, were actually BA...(?)

Well from 1990 (when I got into spotting), BA had the following based at BHX, they got the whole ex BCAL fleet of BAC111-500s, the G-AWY* series, and from memory, G-AYOP, G-AZPZ amongst others. BA had just retired the few BAC11-400s to Birmingham European, which went to Brymon, Brymon European and then Maersk as a BA franchise.
(G-AWBL / G-AVGP / G-BBME / F / G)

MAN had the BAC111-510ED G-AVM* and three BAC111-539GLs G-BGK*.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2963 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2750 times:
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BA operated through the 70s and 80s the former BKS/Cambrian fleet of BAC1-11 -400 aircraft from Birmingham and it acquired the three extra (face saving purchased BAC1-11-500) bought at the same time as the 732 purchase.

The BAC1-11-501 models were nominally based in Manchester however the reality is there were only ever 6 or 7 their at any one time (More were at LHR ! serving the thinner routes such as Luxembourg., Lyon, Jersey and Bordeaux to name a few). One of the BAC1-11-501 models was out stationed at Glasgow (for the Paris direct service) and another in Berlin for inter german operations.

The 501 model was unusual in that it had a cockpit layout almost identical to the Trident with some crews cross licensed !

After BCAL was aborbed Birmingham gained a few of the ex BCAL 1-11-500s as some of the smaller series 400 were sold on to Brymon .
These remained at Birmingham went Brymon/BEA/Maersk UK.
Later Maersk would also acquire two of the ex BCAL 500s and these flew in BA colours

There were many mistakes with BA regional operations .
Talk of a dual Hub operation Well BA Regional DID JUST THAT both Manchester and Birmingham were cross hubs for services from Northern Ireland and Scotland over to Europe for thirty years. Similar connections were offered over both hubs not clever. Franky BA should have closed one down much earlier and given geography and the fact that it wasn't connected to the primary Hub - Birmingham should have closed 20 years ago.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24858 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2725 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 14):
After flying the BAC111 for what seemed forever, they replaced them with ex LHR B737-236s which were just as noisy

I think the 111 was significantly louder than the 737-200. No comparison in my experience. Nothing matched the R-R Spey for noise in that thrust category.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3198 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2600 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 23):
The BAC1-11-501 models were nominally based in Manchester however the reality is there were only ever 6 or 7 their at any one time (More were at LHR ! serving the thinner routes such as Luxembourg., Lyon, Jersey and Bordeaux to name a few). One of the BAC1-11-501 models was out stationed at Glasgow (for the Paris direct service) and another in Berlin for inter german operations.

Do you mean the -510EDs? (G-AVM*) The 501s were the ex BCAL models.

I still cling to the memory of flying on a BA One Eleven on a day trip GLA-CDG-GLA in the final years of operation, the ex MAN aircraft were back at the end so I got a trip on G-AVMO BA5601 and G-BJRU on the BA5605. Still makes me smile that I got to exit via the rear steps under the tail.

[Edited 2012-06-02 15:06:46]

User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2963 posts, RR: 7
Reply 26, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2572 times:
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Quoting skipness1E (Reply 25):
Do you mean the -510EDs? (G-AVM*)

My mistake yes -510ED (Going a bit senile !)


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