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P2 Neptune Firefighting Plane Crashes In Utah  
User currently offlineKBJCpilot From United States of America, joined May 2012, 177 posts, RR: 6
Posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5257 times:

Two fatalities confirmed. Does anyone have a tail number?

http://news.yahoo.com/air-tanker-cra...lls-2-utah-wildfire-021010527.html


Samsonite, I was way off!
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKBJCpilot From United States of America, joined May 2012, 177 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5164 times:

It was Tanker 11 from Neptune Aviation.

http://wildfiretoday.com/tag/air-tanker/



Samsonite, I was way off!
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1567 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5155 times:

I had heard rumors it was Tanker 11 (N14447) Sad news either way!


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ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5113 times:

There are still P-2 Neptunes flying? These things should be restored as warbirds

User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1567 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5056 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 3):
There are still P-2 Neptunes flying? These things should be restored as warbirds

With Aero Union and their P-3s out of the game, the P-2s are currently the backbone of the US Forest Service Tanker fleet! I agree though, they should be put into museums! They have certainly served hard and well over all these years!

On a slightly unrelated note, Tanker 55 did a gear up landing in Minden, Tahoe!
http://www.mynews4.com/news/local/st...anding/GGCAqj4gEkWfbS8VnbGxSw.cspx



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4979 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 3):
There are still P-2 Neptunes flying? These things should be restored as warbirds

Yeah, there are still some flying. HARS in Australia has two that are in flying condition (one RAN, the other French Marine), and another one which, who knows, might be restored to flying condition too.

Fortunately, these Neptunes are treasured museum pieces. Shame to see one crash.


User currently offlinekpc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4455 times:

After lurking for about 7 years and reading airliners.net daily; I've decided to sign up. What a shame that this thread is my first post.

I still do a little firefighting with the US Forest Service during the summer and have an incredible video of Tanker 11 doing a drop on a fire that I was on in eastern Nevada last summer. They did several great drops for us. I've been watching air tankers drop retardant for years but still get goose bumps when they come in.

I can still hear the sound of those engines powering up after the drop to gain altitude.


User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1327 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3746 times:
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Quoting cbphoto (Reply 4):
On a slightly unrelated note, Tanker 55 did a gear up landing in Minden, Tahoe!
http://www.mynews4.com/news/local/st....cspx

Video of Tanker 55 landing - note a very strong cross wind at the time. Not only did they have to deal with a missing leg - but heck of a crab and a cross wind on the high wing side.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1672640150001/



rcair1
User currently offlinesasd209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3560 times:

Tech question: Does anybody know if the Westinghouse J34 turbojet engines fitted are still used or in usable condition? I'd imagine finding replacement parts during overhauls could be problematic..

~ SDASD209


User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1567 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3539 times:

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 7):
Video of Tanker 55 landing - note a very strong cross wind at the time. Not only did they have to deal with a missing leg - but heck of a crab and a cross wind on the high wing side.

Yeah, saw that on the news for the first time yesterday! Heck of a gear up landing! Hope Tanker 55 can return to the skies soon! It's been a rough week for Neptune Aviation and their fleet!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3459 times:

Ron was a friend of mine.

RIP Ron.

My condolences to the families.


User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1327 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3203 times:
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Quoting cbphoto (Reply 9):
Tanker 55 can return to the skies soon! It's been a rough week for Neptune Aviation and their fleet!

Yes. I quickly had to check to see if tanker 11 or 55 were one of the crews operating on the Hewlett Gulch fire in Colorado couple weeks ago. Those aircraft (both Neptune P2's) flew directly over my house on the way to/from the fire. They were so direct any photos would have been belly shots - so I didn't try. Neither was.

BTW - I have been on a fire where a firefighting aircraft crashed - a helo in this case (type 3). Listening to the radio traffic with the pilot, then hearing he was down a minute later, was very tough for all involved.

The heavy airtanker wildland fleet is in dire straights at this point. Only 11 (now 9) aircraft on contract nation wide. Neptune grounded their fleet after this crash (I believe they did this to allow crews time to recover from the tragedy - most appropriate, I would not want to send crews out immediately after this - what they do is extremely hazardous). So we are basically at zero (or maybe 1) for contracted air tankers. Of course, there can be at need ships brought in (aircraft that require a contract for each fire), but it is very hard to do and hard for a company to maintain an effective fleet when they are not on contract.

We do have a good fleet of SEATS (Single Engine Air Tankers) and they can be very effective. I was on structure protection on Monday (this week) on another fire near here. We had fire creeping into a small valley just below the structure I was at - no fire line or crews in that area and just me and a second FF's in a type 6 at this structure (not much). If it had continued into the trees on the slope below us it would have been wind driven right at us. Thankfully - in the last drop of the day the SEAT on the fire was able to drop into the valley and put a retardant line in the grass ahead of the creeping fire. The fire hit it and stopped. That drop was quite impressive, the SEAT had to come in over the ridge, dive down at a significant descent angle and drop while descending below the ridge on both sides. He exited down the valley. Very nice airman-ship and a beautiful drop right on target. In this case the drop stopped the advance pretty much cold, but that is very rare. Typically we use drops to slow the fire so we can get crews in.

We were discussing the availability of heavy's in a local wildland chief's meeting just last week and we are concerned. This is a big problem.

BTW - I've been a fire fighter for 26 years and have been on many fires with fixed and rotary wing aircraft. SEAT's are commonly used in initial attack (which is what I'm usually involved in). Heavies come in later - usually 24-48 hrs to get them here.

Regarding the very large tankers (Evergreen 747, DC-10), I've never seen an instance where they would have been useful. Too big an aircraft to access, too big a load to drop. Can I imagine a perfect time when they might work if circumstances were different - perhaps, but only if the stars lined up. Example, the Crystal fire at the blowup (went from about 25 acres to 3000 in about 2 hrs'ish) - if a VLT could have dropped across the head? Would it have helped? No. Aside from the practical issues, (night, 70mph winds, difficult terrain for that size aircraft), we were getting spot fires a mile ahead of the front.

I can see those ships being useful in very large fires in flat ground - but in the mountains where I am, nope. I've never seen a fire (thankfully) where I could utilized a drop that big. We need smaller, focused, attacks.

This has been an ongoing problem for a decade. The USFS just commissioned the 6th study on air tankers - what aircraft can be used. Many of the proposals coming out of those utilized aircraft little if any newer than the P2's

BTW - you may have heard of using C-130's with "MAFFS" systems as an option. These use a pressurized pump deployment system rather than gravity dump (so does the single BAE-146 in service). The problem with these is the offload rate is not fast enough - the drop does not penetrate any canopy and get to the ground. They are not a simple solution.



rcair1
User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 722 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 11):

BTW - you may have heard of using C-130's with "MAFFS" systems as an option. These use a pressurized pump deployment system rather than gravity dump (so does the single BAE-146 in service). The problem with these is the offload rate is not fast enough - the drop does not penetrate any canopy and get to the ground. They are not a simple solution.

Thanks for addressing the BAE-146. How about the Beriev Be-200?


User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1327 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2929 times:
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Quoting SSTeve (Reply 12):
Thanks for addressing the BAE-146. How about the Beriev Be-200?

Sorry - Dunno about that one.



rcair1
User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1887 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2914 times:
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Hi RCAir, a very interesting post, thanks!

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 11):
We do have a good fleet of SEATS (Single Engine Air Tankers) and they can be very effective.

What aircraft types are we talking about here?

Rgds, Martijn



Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1567 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2866 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 14):
What aircraft types are we talking about here?

Air tractors!


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ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1327 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2728 times:
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Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 14):
What aircraft types are we talking about here?

cbphoto is exactly right. I have some really crappy pictures of drops - I keep forgetting to bring my good camera on fire calls and often I'm a little busy  . On the drop I referenced in my post - I tried to catch it with my android phone, but just didn't work.

I just returned from a lightening fire - small - 30x30ft and only a small hike in - so not bad. But in 26 years of fire fighting, I'm struggling to remember a summer that started this way. We are getting fires nearly daily - two today were both lightning caused. Worst day I ever recall was 7 fires in one day - all lightening, all small. But that was in August - peak of the season. This is June! The fires we are getting right now are pretty aggressive.

Good news - we just got 30 minutes heavy rain (thunderstorm). Bad news - lots, LOTS, of lightening....



rcair1
User currently offlinethreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2162 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2718 times:

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 11):
These use a pressurized pump deployment system rather than gravity dump (so does the single BAE-146 in service).

Great plane. Crappy delivery system. There is a 2nd BAe 146 almost ready to work now plus anther under development with a different operator. Better news: an RJ-85 under development with a gravity tank promises to offer a much better retardant delivery option. Look for this plane to be prominent in years to come.

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 12):
How about the Beriev Be-200?

Let's not even discuss it until it is certified for use in North America.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 16):
The fires we are getting right now are pretty aggressive.

A pair of Canadian airtankers are in Boise now. One arrived Monday; the other Wednesday. Final destination is as yet unclear.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1327 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2607 times:
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Quoting threepoint (Reply 17):
Great plane. Crappy delivery system.

Yep. As a pilot/a.nutter I would LOVE to see a -146 drop. Very cool and they have the speed/legs to get to a fire faster. But as a firefighter, I need that retardant on the ground in an effective distribution.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 17):
A pair of Canadian airtankers are in Boise now. One arrived Monday; the other Wednesday. Final destination is as yet unclear.

Good news.

We had one heavy operating yesterday - on the Stuart Hole fire - diverted to the Camman fire when that popped up. Quick air attack by one or two SEATS, a type 3 helicopter and the heavy kept that fire down till crews could get there - ended up only a few acres. I don't know the operator or aircraft. Flight path was west of me.

Today we are cool, cloudy and overcast after last nights rain. We need the break. But - man - the lightning last night! Off to a 24 hr check on last nights fire here in a couple hours. And I volunteer for this? What am I thinking?



rcair1
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