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SAA Cancel Cape Town London After 20 Years  
User currently offlinecv990coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 360 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 26743 times:
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SAA will cancel their Cape Town London service in August and route passengers via Johannesburg. The service started as once a week flight with a Boeing 747SP in the late seventies or early eighties.

SAA site drop in demand to London of 24% over the last 3 years.

http://www.fin24.com/Companies/Trave...-Cape-Town-London-flights-20120605

I think this has some of the same reasons for Qantas's reduction in service from Australia to London. EK operate twice daily CPT DXB and QR and TK also operate to CPT. They get a lot of the low end economy market that used to transit LHR and the business leisure market to LHR and Europe.

In addition the following points have also damaged the route.

South African's now need visae to enter or transit (in many cases) the UK. These are expensive and time consuming to obtain.

The APD taxes for entry and transit make LHR very expensive(this applies on separate ticket which are cheaper)

SAA now try and route connections via there star alliance partner LH through MUC and FRA.

They use two new 332's on the route and these can certainly be used more profitably on other routes.

It is sad that the CPTLHR flight was once one of the longest non stop flights in the world but times change.

BA operate daily in our summer and twice daily in the winter but they get a large feed from the USA and Europe. VS operate in our winter only.


SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
105 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejetsetter629 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 26494 times:

Quoting cv990coronado (Thread starter):
They use two new 332's on the route and these can certainly be used more profitably on other routes.

I thought the A332 was a perfect aircraft in terms of capasity for this route - not as large as the A343/A346. Competition must be hurting SAA on this route where it is economically viable to have all international ops go via JNB

Where else would the A332 be deployed? I know it's currently seen on JNB-LHR and JNB-GRU


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4517 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 26381 times:

Will the Heathrow slot be used for a third JNB flight or leased out? The early morning arrival time makes the slot very lucrative.

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17829 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 25992 times:

Quoting cv990coronado (Thread starter):
EK operate twice daily CPT DXB

EK is cutting the second flight.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8596 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 25825 times:
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What a shame, this route has been running for over 35 years,quite impressive!

I flew this route back in 2010, CPT-LHR on a SA A340-200, almost a100% load on that particular day.

It will be interesting to see of they sell or lease out the slots.



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineMD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3149 posts, RR: 57
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 25790 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
Will the Heathrow slot be used for a third JNB flight or leased out? The early morning arrival time makes the slot very lucrative.

It actually looks like it i'll be leased out - as there won't be any increase in capacity announced other than the use of a bigger aircraft in the JNB-LHR route.

Looks like SAA will be trying to push/enforce PER, BOM and ACC within its network by redeploying the aircraft used in the CPT-LHR route.



There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4920 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 25679 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
EK is cutting the second flight.

I thought this was only temporary and that once the A380 wing situation was resolved and further 77W's came online CPT would revert to double daily.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlinejoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 25654 times:

I flew FRA-JNB on an A380 about a year ago and it was full. I then flew back CPT-FRA on a 747 and it was half full at best in both coach and business. I had no problem scoring an upgrade so I was happy!

I wonder if several CPT flights are pretty weak? I don't know how many destinations in Europe they serve from CPT.


User currently offlinecv990coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 25649 times:
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Quoting jetsetter629
"I thought the A332 was a perfect aircraft in terms of capasity for this route - not as large as the A343/A346."

Yep that's just how bad it is these days. I guess if it doesn't work with a 332 it isn't going to. Looks like SAA is going to be JNB Airways as BA is London Airways and QF is becoming SYD Airways.

The 332's can be deployed just about anywhere that's the beauty of them. I see the are upping the BOM frequency now that 9W has pulled out. They are also replacing the 342 on ACC and they can be used anywhere to replace a 319/738 where most seats are needed.

Quoting HB-IWC

"Will the Heathrow slot be used for a third JNB flight or leased out? The early morning arrival time makes the slot very lucrative."

It doesn't look like they are going to have a third JNB LHR flight. I think this is part of the story I think they are bleeding on JNBLHR as well. At present they have 2 X 332's I see they will have 1 X 332 and 1 343 in our summer when the demand is higher. By cancelling the CPTLHR and putting the traffic via JNB I think they hope to get the yield up with only two flights. Now the slot that is a good question. I would say that if they can lease it out it will be worth more in the future if they need to sell it. If they sell it now the money will soon be gone and getting those slots isn't easy.



SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17829 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 25565 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 6):
I thought this was only temporary and that once the A380 wing situation was resolved and further 77W's came online CPT would revert to double daily.

Certainly could be--but regardless EK is going to cut their worst performers first



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5319 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 25547 times:

Just another nail in the coffin from Gulf Carriers....

There is obviously LHR-CPT demand but most of it is now going via the gulf, turkey or Europe.

Ridiculous increases in UK APD is only going to help more more passengers via those hubs.


User currently offlinecv990coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 25247 times:
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Quoting Maverick11
"Certainly could be--but regardless EK is going to cut their worst performers first"

Good Point . It is only from Sep thru Nov and the EK are back 2 x daily. But the damage has been done to a route between to centres with centuries of business and cultural links. There will be more and more examples through the world as the Middle Eastern carriers become more powerful. Their combination of quality service, equipment, price and frequency will claim more and more routes and airlines. Having flown on them I can understand why .



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User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2175 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 24891 times:

I'm sure CPT is much lower yield, and even if A330 is more efficient than A340, a 12 hour flight is expensive to operate. If everyone in the back is low yield, it can't work.

Better to deploy on a route that doesn't require a long ground time. I don't think there are a lot of options for new service for SAA. Perhaps they could use the capacity to increase ACC and EZE to daily. I've heard ACC is doing well.

What is the range of the A330 from JNB? Could the aircraft make it all the way to SYD?


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6359 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 24754 times:

Quoting cv990coronado (Reply 8):
It doesn't look like they are going to have a third JNB LHR flight. I think this is part of the story I think they are bleeding on JNBLHR as well. At present they have 2 X 332's I see they will have 1 X 332 and 1 343 in our summer when the demand is higher. By cancelling the CPTLHR and putting the traffic via JNB I think they hope to get the yield up with only two flights. Now the slot that is a good question. I would say that if they can lease it out it will be worth more in the future if they need to sell it. If they sell it now the money will soon be gone and getting those slots isn't easy.

I am sure that there are a few star alliance folks that could lease the slot from them....UA for example. Also several of the South American carriers have also expressed interest in LHR....perhaps LATAM would snap it up.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineshankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1547 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 24666 times:

Quoting anstar (Reply 10):
Just another nail in the coffin from Gulf Carriers....


I'm not proud to note that I predicted the demise on this route on this very forum for the very reason noted by anstar

EK had become my preferred route down to the Cape (stonking BA and SAA fares and grim LH alternate) and I found it absolutely bizarre that the EK flights to and from DXB were SAA code share, with full points earned on my SAA Voyager account...which I happily use on SAA internals. This seemed to me like SAA giving the keys away to the castle without any fight at all.

Actually this year EK have really hiked up their fares LHR-DXB-CPT so i've decided to go back on the direct route...but with BA who have some quite good WT+ options

I used to love the SAA 747's on this route, wonderful service in the Business Class cabins, which lost a little personality when the A346's were brought in, albeit the plane itself was a better ride

The recent grim period (for economy pax) of the A342's on this run was the real indication that SAA had lost the plot on what was once one of the worlds Blue Riband air routes

Will be keen to see the response from LH and KL to UK starting pax, although BA must be very pleased with themselves



L1011 - P F M
User currently onlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7743 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 24610 times:

Here are the numbers published by the UK CAA for passengers flying betrween LHR and CPT over the last three years:

2009: 544, 237
2010: 492,075
2011: 492,521

The decline in the market has been 9.0 per cent compared to the 24 per cent drop reported by SA. So it looks as if SA are loosing market share and quickly.

If you go back further these are the CAA numbers:

2007 (5 years ago): 598,602

2002 (10 years ago): 460,016

So over the last five years (since before the start of the credit crunch) there has been a decline of 17.7 per cent in passenger numbers. However last year there were 7.1 per cent more passengers travelling directly between LHR and CPT than there were ten years ago.

Here is a link to the CAA data for 2011:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...tl_Air_Pax_Route_Analysis_2011.pdf

The relevant data is on page 62.

And here is a link to the 2002 data:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...tl_Air_Pax_Route_Analysis_2002.pdf

Here the South African data is on page 33.


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 24564 times:

Quoting shankly (Reply 14):
this year EK have really hiked up their fares LHR-DXB-CPT


Hmmm...sounds about right. Move in a market, drive down fares, chase competition away, raise fares. Rinse, repeat.
Welcome to the future with EK, and a few others.

Is it good and/or bad? Not necessarily.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineDallas From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 23982 times:

Does anyone know the exact day in August this will happen?

User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2594 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 23877 times:

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 1):
I thought the A332 was a perfect aircraft in terms of capasity for this route - not as large as the A343/A346. Competition must be hurting SAA on this route where it is economically viable to have all international ops go via JNB


Off course a major problem is incredibly low utilization with two airframes doing a single daily round-trip. Schedule:
CPT-LHR 18:50 - 06:20 -->14:40 hr downtime at LHR
LHR-CPT 21:00 - 10:05

They do appear to utilize some of the CPT downtime with some JNB rotations, but two two-hour flights do not really help utilization for a 12 hr capable airframe; increases cycle count dramatically (and thus maintenance cost) with relative low yields.

PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1527 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 23056 times:

Quoting anstar (Reply 10):
There is obviously LHR-CPT demand but most of it is now going via the gulf, turkey or Europe.

Ridiculous increases in UK APD is only going to help more more passengers via those hubs.
Quoting cv990coronado (Thread starter):
The APD taxes for entry and transit make LHR very expensive(this applies on separate ticket which are cheaper)

Note that APD does not apply to passengers in transit or those who arrive in the UK. It is payable only on departure so has no effect on which routing a passenger takes when leaving the UK using a through ticket to CPT.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22994 times:

Quoting cv990coronado (Thread starter):
SAA will cancel their Cape Town London service in August and route passengers via Johannesburg. The service started as once a week flight with a Boeing 747SP in the late seventies or early eighties

Flying via JNB is about 3 hours longer. Flying via DXB is about 6 hours longer. What happened to P2P taking over the world  


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17829 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22753 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 16):
Hmmm...sounds about right. Move in a market, drive down fares, chase competition away, raise fares. Rinse, repeat.
Welcome to the future with EK, and a few others.
Quoting cmf (Reply 20):
Flying via JNB is about 3 hours longer. Flying via DXB is about 6 hours longer. What happened to P2P taking over the world
Quoting shankly (Reply 14):
EK had become my preferred route down to the Cape

Well over 80% of the traffic still goes nonstop, so the Gulf carriers may be driving the fare down, but they're not driving a lot of traffic.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5319 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22370 times:

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 19):

Note that APD does not apply to passengers in transit or those who arrive in the UK. It is payable only on departure so has no effect on which routing a passenger takes when leaving the UK using a through ticket to CPT.

Yes but there are alot of pax flying LHR-CPT... these pax are disadvantaged by the APD as it is distance based so a pax flying LHR-DXB-CPT will pay less tax than one flying LHR-CPT direct..... and this may just be enough to encourage that pax to fky with EK over SAA.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22201 times:

Quoting cv990coronado (Reply 8):
Yep that's just how bad it is these days. I guess if it doesn't work with a 332 it isn't going to. Looks like SAA is going to be JNB Airways as BA is London Airways and QF is becoming SYD Airways.

Does SA have any 787's on order? Sounds look a good application here   A long, thin route specialist...



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinecv990coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 22156 times:
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Quoting LondonCity
"Note that APD does not apply to passengers in transit or those who arrive in the UK. It is payable only on departure so has no effect on which routing a passenger takes when leaving the UK using a through ticket to CPT."

Unfortunately you are wrong in connection with the type of fares many budget travellers take. Yes are correct that if you take a through ticket i.e CPTLONFRA and don't stop in LON you don't pay the tax. But many low cost travellers used to buy tickets CPT LON CPT and then Lon Europe Lon on cheaper special fares because the combination was cheaper even though they paid two UK departure taxes. As the taxes increased and offers via the Middle East because more plentiful it became less and less attractive to travel via LHR. This plus the cost of a visa for the UK can add $300 to the cost of travelling via LON . This means that many Cape Town travellers go CPT DXB - FRA or ROM or ZRH when 5 -10 years ago their first choice was via LHR.



SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
25 LondonCity : There is some confusion here. APD is based on the final destination. So if you fly LHR-DXB-CPT you pay £81 in APD. You only pay the lower rate of AP
26 Post contains links cmf : 16 GBP at the cost of 6 hours. How much is the fuel for the 36% longer flight via DXB? More or less than APD? Edit: Did a very rough fuel calculation
27 cv990coronado : Quoting Kelpkid "Does SA have any 787's on order? Sounds look a good application here A long, thin route specialist..." No SAA doesn't but even if the
28 LondonCity : You are correct in that £16 is hardly worth it when breaking your journey en route for CPT. Yes, it does take longer to fly via the Gulf but the poi
29 MaverickM11 : I think the bigger problem is that LONCPT is mostly leisure, VFR, and highly elastic travel that simply doesn't travel with higher fares and/or the A
30 richardw : Many have been travelling to CPT from UK regional airports on KL via AMS before the emergence of EK, avoiding LHR is nothing new.
31 yeogeo : Regularly Scheduled CPT nonstops to/from Europe: Showing in and out of season: Early March schedules / Late June '12 Schedules AMS KL 777x7/ 777x5 FRA
32 cmf : Completely agree. I was objecting to the illogical importance assigned to ADP .
33 addictedMAN : I'm not sure how much feed SA will get from BD for this flight, but what they did get will soon be lost.
34 Post contains links lukeyboy95 : Can someone clarify... did the SAA brand loose some of it's value/ prestige over the last 5 years or so? It seemed to pall into the background on thei
35 ZK-NBT : I've always heard they struggle with LHR fullstop or have atleast recently due to the long ground times at LHR. Even JNB services have gone from 2 dai
36 cv990coronado : The following is from a media briefing in Cape Town after my original post. As you can see it confirms many of the points I raised and those raised by
37 jfk777 : SAA has 3 LHR slots, they are not just going to give one back for nothing. SAA has some kind of plan, sell it, lease it or operate another flight to L
38 richardw : They could sell slots to BA, so they can operate flights to China that are desperately needed, apparently.
39 RWA380 : I understand why planes mostly leave at night from JNB, altitude, heat etc... but what keeps carriers from flying in the morning from Europe, right a
40 Post contains images col : Fuel costs and APD obviously make Leeds more important
41 Post contains links boeing773W : Quoting RWA380 (Reply 39):I understand why planes mostly leave at night from JNB, altitude, heat etc... but what keeps carriers from flying in the mor
42 B747-4U3 : The arrival slot - early in the morning - is at a highly desirable time. The departure slot - in the evening - may be a limiting factor on who could
43 PW100 : The premium pax typically prefer a night flight to arrive early in the morning, allowing for a full usefull business day at destination. If you don't
44 jfk777 : South Africa should never sell the is the slot as it is difficult and costly to acquire another slot. Other small countries have sold their LHR slots
45 MaverickM11 : I think it's been mostly a goat rodeo for years--did the SA brand ever have some prestige? Certainly not in the last decade.
46 AIR MALTA : Why do the UK, SA and AUS (or any other infact) sign an agreement where their airlines could operated freely between the 3 countries. In that way SAA
47 cmf : The danger of generalizations. Almost none, if any, of the Europe to US flights are night flights. Certainly much larger than EU to SA.
48 jfk777 : The reason most EU to USA are NOT night flights is the time doesn't work out. Arriving nother reason is the distances are too short. Even a flight fr
49 VV701 : To what end? How many passengers would book a return flight from CPT to LHR knowing they had to fly the Atlantic twice on the return leg? And how muc
50 cmf : Hang on there. There are currently two flights scheduled between FRA and LAX LH468 depart 10:00 and arrive 12:40 LH450 depart 14:00 and arrive 16:40
51 PW100 : Indeed that is dangerous . . . Off course EU to US is following the sun, so arrival (local time) is just a couple of hours later than departure (loca
52 cmf : Yet the AMS - CPT flight departs 10:05 and arrive 21:35 and AMS - JNB depart 10:20 and arrive 21:20. Can't be called red-eye by any measurement. And
53 Post contains images PW100 : Which I think was exactly my point where we started the discussion . . . . as SAA is apparently not able to run this route profitably as they do oper
54 airzim : Now what about the return flights? If you leave that late in the day from LAX, you'll arrive back in Europe after lunch. Now you've shot the whole wo
55 anstar : And almost all US-EU flights are overnight! You need to account for timezones. With South Africa and Europe only 1/2 hours difference then it is esse
56 jfk777 : That schedule would work and several 2000 do leave LHR for JFK. For night time west bound schdeules study what Cathay Pacific does from HKG to Europe
57 Post contains images cmf : You said the exact opposite in reply 43 Agree it doesn't change anything significant. I objected because you made an absolute statement of something
58 Viscount724 : You're igoring the impact of the very large time 9 hour time difference betwween FRA and LAX. With an arrival time of 2240 in LAX the return flight c
59 cmf : No I'm not. I objected to the statement that you need to keep a plane sitting all day because business passengers want red eyes so they can spend the
60 Viscount724 : You still have to consider the other direction. If you leave LAX for Europe after the end of the business day, you arrive in Europe near the end of t
61 AIR MALTA : You did not get my point. SAA would operate CPT-DKR-JFK-LHR-CPT. In that case SAA would offer the following routes LHR-CPT, LHR-FK and CPT-JFK via DK
62 imag : That's one or two hours different, not half. Right now, with daylight savings in most of Western Europe, most of Western Europe is on the same time l
63 PW100 : Yet, that is exactly what's going on on LHR-South Africa . . . : SAA: JNB-LHR: 19:45 - 06:25 JNB-LHR: 20:15 - 06:55 LHR-JNB: 19:00 - 07:20 --> 12:
64 parapente : Reply 14 Shankly was spot on.It is happening all over the place.The Gulf states are taking all the lower priced - one stop pax. Clearly there is no ro
65 HB-IWC : It looks as if the SA slots at LHR is being leased to SQ for its 4th daily LHR service, which has been loaded with exactly the same arrival slots as t
66 jfk777 : SAA's leasing of the slot is important to its future when it wants to add flights to LHR.
67 bjorn14 : I wonder if Durban could support a 2-3x weekly to LON?
68 Post contains links Pe@rson : Funnily enough: http://www.therouteshop.com/dubetrade-airport/ "[Seeks] daily service: South Africa and KZ-N province’s largest trade partner; larg
69 imag : Same with Air France (A380), Lufthansa (A380), Swiss (A340) all spending the day on the ground in JNB. They don't do the same on their home turf, whi
70 Post contains images cmf : You're barking at the wrong tree. I fully understand why routes between Europe and NA are timed as they are. I also notice there is no problem gettin
71 Ned Kelly : IIRC the SAA CPT-LHR service started around c1976 (could have been 77), it was a 1x weekly flight and operated on a Friday by a 747SP, when introduced
72 peanuts : Actually, mostly it is. For the same reason US-Deep South America runs this way. It's been proven daytime south to northbound yields are a lot less.
73 AF086 : Indeed. It allows biz pax to have a full working day and then head to the airport, fly, arrive the next morning and have another working day if neede
74 PW100 : OK Now I get your real point. I'm sitting sick at home so my brain is not fully upto speed. Please forgive . . . Perhaps you are willing to clairfy a
75 shankly : On the money parapente. I wonder what SAA's excuse will be when BA sticks the A380 on the JNB run and devastates the SAA loads I'm going to follow th
76 YOWza : I doubt it. DUR does not have anywhere close to the same tourist draw as CPT. YOWza
77 jfk777 : With the portfolio of destinations important to South Africa, The UK, Australia, Hong Kong, Brzail and the USA the OneWorld alliance would have been
78 peanuts : I've said it before and will again: some sort of very close cooperation between BA/QF/SA, and I mean REALLY close including JV's, would make a very po
79 addictedMAN : Nobody seems to have mentioned that SA is codesharing with VS on the non-stop LHR-CPT run (Don't know exactly when this starts), so routing via JNB is
80 VV701 : Yes. They ceased the tag-on when Comair was appointed a BA franchise operator for Southern Africa. Now there is a 2 hr 05 min lay over at JNB between
81 Viscount724 : They have no choice on Europe-U.S. It's north-south routes like Europe-Africa and U.S.-deep South America, where business passengers normally show a
82 sunrisevalley : Does South Africa have any ETOPS policy for twins to cover an A332 JNB-PER ?
83 cmf : There is more to the world than Europe - South Africa. That is why I gave you the Europe - US example. If red eye was so important they too would be
84 Post contains links LondonCity : Yes you are correct in that APD does not apply to passengers who transit LHR. But South African nationals need a visa even to transit London for a de
85 EddieDude : I am curious if flights between Japan, China and South Korea, on the one hand, and Australia and New Zealand, on the other hand, are mainly red-eyes
86 Viscount724 : Connections are an important issue, but so are the requirements of the high-revenue business travellers, and the preference by business travellers fo
87 peanuts : I concur. This shouldn't even be an arguable point really. Ask AA why all those 777 are parked in Brazil all day. Trust me, they know. CPT-LHR would
88 Post contains images cmf : I always forget about the transit visa. Explain why it is only an issue on north - south flights Problem is there isn't enough O&D traffic. You n
89 peanuts : Correct. That's why CPT-LHR is getting canned. Drop in (premium) O&D caused this route to go. JNB can handle the connections anyways.
90 Viscount724 : Because on many east-west longhaul routes, redeye flights aren't possible for the various reasons already mentioned (time difference, airport curfews
91 cmf : Horse hockey. It would not be overnight but it would be early evening departures with late evening arrival. Then a good nights sleep at the hotel to
92 Viscount724 : But what happens eastbound? A flight arriving late evening (e.g. 2100-2200) on the west coast, for example, wouldn't be able to leave until around mi
93 lightsaber : I do not understand the claims that EK's 2X/day flights killed this. The math doesn't add up. Time is money. Six hours of extra time is quite a bit. E
94 cmf : Remember that I'm not suggesting this should be done. I'm just stating that if flying red eye is so important it would be done everywhere. As to flyi
95 theginge : Is the above not just seasonal flying, more flying to Cape Town in the Southern Hemisphere summer and happens every year?
96 LondonCity : The fact is that EK is not just flying out of LHR or other major hubs like CDG, AMS, FRA etc. Look at its UK/European network and you'll see it serve
97 cv990coronado : Quoteing LondonCity (reply 96) "The fact is that EK is not just flying out of LHR or other major hubs like CDG, AMS, FRA etc. Look at its UK/European
98 shankly : You've not read the whole thread. SAA were code sharing and offering full Voyager miles with EK on this route...utter madness Time is money fails to
99 yeogeo : I didn't include TK because they are one-stops; in the info provided in reply 31 I specifically said "non-stops to/from CPT". yeo
100 sandyb123 : Speaking as someone who does this route at least annually, I have taken the EK option. This is party to keep my gold status on Skywards (which result
101 sandyb123 : Incidentally the SAA website is poor. There is no information about their online product. No info about J seats, service etc. also by looking at pictu
102 boeing773W : They do have personal IFE screens on all long haul aircraft, with a pretty good selection in fact. I agree with you that the website should be improv
103 sandyb123 : My dad used to travel to South Africa on business quite a lot and always used to compliment SAA about how good their product was. Years later (like 2
104 RWA380 : There are many tours that arrive into JNB and depart CPT or v.v. VS may be able to get enough of a boost from the loyal SAA customers that frequent t
105 shankly : You are indeed correct yeogeo, my mistake ....well only just. For the last few years they've been running the A342's between LHR and CPT and sometime
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