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AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type  
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 750 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13625 times:

It's been a while since I last posted one of these threads, so I spent some of my free time over the last few weeks looking through the schedules for the four US-based legacy airlines and gathering the following numbers.

To ensure a fair comparison, I used the same date for all four airlines: Thursday, July 26, 2012. I like using Thursdays because they seem to me to be the most "average", although they usually tend to be more of a peak day than not. Data was gathered from the UA and US online timetables, the AA booking engine, and the DL desktop timetable. There will undoubtedly be further minor tweaks to the schedules, but I would expect this to be a fairly accurate representation of what the peak summer schedule will look like.

For each legacy carrier, I will show the data for all stations with 100+ departures. Due to the number of stations for some airlines (DL and UA), I will create a separate thread for each to keep it manageable. Also, I'm grouping aircraft by body type (not differentiating engines, interiors, ETOPS, etc.) to simplify things. For example, I won't differentiate M82 from M83 (if there's a difference in the frame, I'm unaware of it...), but I will denote M88 and M90 separately. I'm sorry if that bothers you. Additionally, I'm going to use the same aircraft codes across all the threads for consistency's sake (for example, I'll note 737-700 as 73G for all airlines, even though DL uses the 73W code). Once again, sorry if that bothers you.

Here is the data for AA:


DFW

ER3: 34
ERD: 69
ER4: 182
CR7: 1
M80: 347
738: 97
752: 32
763: 11
777: 7

Total: 780


ORD

ERD: 134
ER4: 144
CR7: 60
M80: 77
738: 60
752: 11
763: 9
777: 6

Total: 501


MIA

AT7: 21
ER4: 43
738: 125
752: 86
762: 1
763: 17
777: 8

Total: 301


LAX

ERD: 42
CR7: 22
M80: 12
738: 41
752: 25
762: 10
763: 3
777: 5

Total: 160


LGA

ER3: 29
CR7: 37
M80: 27
738: 20

Total: 113


Note that "M80" represents both MD-82 and MD-83.

[Edited 2012-06-05 20:55:02]


SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 750 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13686 times:

(Note that JFK didn't make the cut in terms of number of departures. However, I'm including it here as honorary mention since it's an AA Cornerstone and since it's just barely under 100 departures.)

JFK

ERD: 11
ER4: 8
CR7: 6
738: 15
752: 15
762: 15
763: 13
777: 8

Total: 91



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32624 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13408 times:

Great list, thanks.

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
MIA

AT7: 21
ER4: 43
738: 125
752: 86
762: 1
763: 17
777: 8

Total: 237



MIA total is 343.



a.
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 750 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13321 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 2):
MIA total is 343.

Whoops, I put the mainline total instead of the grand total. I've updated the original post to be 301 total at MIA.

Unless I still can't add...



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11463 posts, RR: 61
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13240 times:

While the unions have made some arguably fair points about the relative "fairness" and reasonableness of some of AA's demands in their 1113 term sheets, I think these numbers - all of them - comparing AA with its three remaining U.S. legacy competitors just serve to highlight the competitive disadvantage AA's SCOPE clause creates for the company.

At four of AA's five "cornerstone" hubs, mainline departures outstrip regional departures, and often at a nearly if not more-than 2-to-1 margin. The only AA "cornerstone" with less than a majority of departures with mainline is Chicago, and even there, AA still essentially the exact same mainline/regional mix as United, despite the fact that United has nearly a third more total departures.

On average, 40% of AA's departures at their major hubs/operations are regional. The comparable number is essentially the exact opposite at Delta, United and USAirways - all of which have roughly 60% regional on average at their largest operations. Not surprisingly, Delta, which has the least restrictive SCOPE clause, and with which - amazingly - only two of their hubs are majority mainline (ATL and JFK). Their other hubs are all majority regional. The difference is most starkly pronounced at United, which now has only two hubs that are majority mainline - SFO and LAX - and both by razor thin margins of only 1-3%. Every single other United hub has more regional than mainline departures.

This all underscores why AA's SCOPE clause was simply not competitive and one way or another has to change if AA is to combat what their largest peer competitors have done.


User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1927 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13209 times:

Two things that surprise me: only 7 777 flts at DFW? And only 66 mainline flts out of JFK??? What happened to AA in JFK?


My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2169 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13078 times:

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 5):

Two things that surprise me: only 7 777 flts at DFW?

Yeah, at first I thought I was miscounting, but so far this is what I am seeing:

-3x 777s on DFWLHR (eff 11 JUN 2012, disc 22 OCT 2012)
-2x 777s on DFWNRT (no change)
-1x 777 on DFWGRU (no change)
-1x 777 on DFWMAD (eff 28 MAY 2012, disc 20 AUG 2012)
-1x 777 on DFWEZE (eff 20 AUG 2012)

So the MAD and EZE flights will switch off come late August. Interestingly, DFWLHR reverts back to a single 777 and 763 twice daily service in the fall, whereas now it is 2x 777 and 1x 763, before becoming 3x 777 + 1 763 next week. I wonder if the fall schedule will change with the 77W deliveries....



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offline777222LR From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 132 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13020 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 6):
-3x 777s on DFWLHR (eff 11 JUN 2012, disc 22 OCT 2012)
-2x 777s on DFWNRT (no change)
-1x 777 on DFWGRU (no change)
-1x 777 on DFWMAD (eff 28 MAY 2012, disc 20 AUG 2012)
-1x 777 on DFWEZE (eff 20 AUG 2012)

This is actually quite a bit of an upgrade for DFW in terms of AA 777 movements.

The LHR flights are usually 2 x 777 and 1 x 763

The DFW-MAD flight has always been a 763 until very recently

The DFW-EZE flight has fluctuated between a 763 and 777.

The only really downgrade for DFW is the DFW-FRA flight to a 763 which has always been a 777.


User currently offlinejporterfi From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 438 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 12933 times:

Has ORD always had so many more regional jets than MD80s? And is there any particular reason why AA doesn't deplay its MD-80s out of MIA? Is it because they aren't ETOPS and the 738s are?

User currently offlinelasairlinerenth From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12851 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Thanks for these numbers, FSDan. Perhaps I shouldn't have been, but I was surprised to see JFK didn't make the first cut; I thought, erroneously, of course, that AA had more of a presence there as opposed to LGA. Interesting to see, too, that DFW is dominated, by far, by M80 flights. When I transited through DFW on my way to and from Boston a couple of months ago, there seemed to me to be more of an even mix of M80s and 738s rather than a preponderance of the M80s. Although I love AAs 738s, it will be a sad day indeed when AAs M80s are all gone (as many others have said). I know my current home city will never be a hub for AA, but any idea where LAS sits in terms of AA flight numbers in relation to DFW/ORD/MIA/LGA/JFK (just curious).

User currently offlineqqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2266 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 12645 times:

I'm surprised to see the 757 disappear from LGA-MIA. Currently there are six 757s between the two.


The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 750 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 12240 times:

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 8):
Has ORD always had so many more regional jets than MD80s

Yes, but recently the total of MD-82/3s has been going down as the total of 738s has been increasing. A few years ago there were 100+ MD-80s and no 738s at all.

Quoting lasairlinerenth (Reply 9):
I know my current home city will never be a hub for AA, but any idea where LAS sits in terms of AA flight numbers in relation to DFW/ORD/MIA/LGA/JFK (just curious).

On the same day, LAS has 25 departures, all mainline. Mostly MD-82/3s with a few 738s and a single 752 mixed in.

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 10):
I'm surprised to see the 757 disappear from LGA-MIA. Currently there are six 757s between the two.

Yeah, it looks like it's going to be 10x 738. They also took the 757 off of ORD-LGA.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinerealsim From Spain, joined Apr 2010, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 12246 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
While the unions have made some arguably fair points about the relative "fairness" and reasonableness of some of AA's demands in their 1113 term sheets, I think these numbers - all of them - comparing AA with its three remaining U.S. legacy competitors just serve to highlight the competitive disadvantage AA's SCOPE clause creates for the company.

At four of AA's five "cornerstone" hubs, mainline departures outstrip regional departures, and often at a nearly if not more-than 2-to-1 margin. The only AA "cornerstone" with less than a majority of departures with mainline is Chicago, and even there, AA still essentially the exact same mainline/regional mix as United, despite the fact that United has nearly a third more total departures.

On average, 40% of AA's departures at their major hubs/operations are regional. The comparable number is essentially the exact opposite at Delta, United and USAirways - all of which have roughly 60% regional on average at their largest operations. Not surprisingly, Delta, which has the least restrictive SCOPE clause, and with which - amazingly - only two of their hubs are majority mainline (ATL and JFK). Their other hubs are all majority regional. The difference is most starkly pronounced at United, which now has only two hubs that are majority mainline - SFO and LAX - and both by razor thin margins of only 1-3%. Every single other United hub has more regional than mainline departures.

This all underscores why AA's SCOPE clause was simply not competitive and one way or another has to change if AA is to combat what their largest peer competitors have done.

     

That is one of the biggest problems AA has. Not only they are at a clear disadvantage regarding the number of regional departures and % of their total departures, but also regarding the size of their regional jets. UA and DL have hundreds of large regional jets, while AA only has 47 CR7 and no aircraft bigger than that (DL has 266 CR7 and bigger).

Given that AA will have growth problems from NYC and LAX (slots and gate space), they should focus on having a new scope clause that allows more % of large regional jets. This is the proposal the company has made:

- Regional aircraft can have up to 88 seats.
- Regional aircraft cannot exceed 70% of mainline aircraft.
- Regional aircraft with 80 to 88 seats cannot exceed 30% of mainline aircraft.

Of course, this proposal would be one of the least restrictives scope clauses (although less than US Airways), so it will be reduced. However, it demonstrates that AA wants to operate the E190, which would be the perfect replacement for half of the M80 fleet, with the other half being replaced with the already ordered A319s.


User currently offlineEaglePower83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11979 times:

If NYC is one of AA's "cornerstones" in their network, why do they have virtually NO connecting flights through NY from New England and the surrounding area?
Being located in Hartford, new to the AA network, it seems really annoying to have to connect in [sweet home] Chicago for everything, when NY would be a great deal closer and easier, yet more convenient to fly to instead of drive etc.
I could connect in EWR or Philly a dozen times over on other airlines.....but NYC seems to be mostly O/D?

Is this because of the lack of space? Gates? etc.

Thanks,


User currently offlinemiaami From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11955 times:

If the US/AA merger actually happens what would a combined US/AA LGA operation look like?

User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11922 times:

Anyone else also quite shocked that AA only has 11 757 movements out of ORD these days?


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently onlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3396 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11862 times:

Quoting miaami (Reply 14):
If the US/AA merger actually happens what would a combined US/AA LGA operation look like?

Possibly similar to the AA operation today. After the DL/US slot swap US doesn't have much of a presence in LGA outside of flts to hubs.


User currently offlinerafflesking From Singapore, joined Mar 2007, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11713 times:

Thanks so much for the effort to put these threads together!

Where does the lone MIA 762 departure head to?

And where do the remaining 763 frames depart from? By my count, this is only 53 frames, vs. their current count of 59. I didn't think any AA 763 routes required 3 frames..


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2169 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11690 times:

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 7):
This is actually quite a bit of an upgrade for DFW in terms of AA 777 movements.

The LHR flights are usually 2 x 777 and 1 x 763

The DFW-MAD flight has always been a 763 until very recently

The DFW-EZE flight has fluctuated between a 763 and 777.

The only really downgrade for DFW is the DFW-FRA flight to a 763 which has always been a 777.

Ehh, yes and no...

The LHR flights are definitely an upgrade, but won't be remaining at 3x daily (or more than 1x daily on a 777 for that matter) beyond October.

DFWMAD was a 777 in summer 2010, so that has been utilized before. So was DFWCDG that year, along with DFWFRA.

DFWEZE was 777 year-round for awhile, but I think AA is happy keeping it at a 763 during low season (northern summer) and reverting back to a 777 during high season (northern winter), hence the switch-off with MAD.

But, as I mentioned earlier, we shall see once the 77Ws come in.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineSJUSXM From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11636 times:

Quoting rafflesking (Reply 17):

Where does the lone MIA 762 departure head to?

JFK



AT7, ER3, ER4, ER5, CR7, E70, E75, F100, M82, M83, 722, 732, 738, 752, 762, 763, AB6, 320, 321, 772, 77W
User currently offlinethreeifbyair From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 672 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11584 times:

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
DFW

ER3: 34
ERD: 69
ER4: 182
CR7: 1
M80: 347
738: 97
752: 32
763: 11
777: 7

Where does the CR7 go?


User currently onlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3392 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11433 times:

That cornerstone in NYC is looking mighty small.

91 departures out of JFK...and they just spent $1.3 billion on a half finished Terminal 8!

And no more 757s out of LGA...sad.

They will be relegated to a distant 4 in NYC behind UA, DL and B6 unless they do something drastic:

1. Retrench to JFK and make that an actual hub with all NYC departures (unlikely)

2. Buy B6 (also unlikely with their current financial situation)

3. US buys them and they say adios to the NYC in anything beyond hub and token important market flying

Time will tell.


User currently offlineeastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11386 times:

I am still scratching my head why MIA-SCL is not a 772. Cargo and Pax traffic is there, but they won't upgrade the station. I guess is not as high yielding as other stations.

Rudy from IAD



AA will Rise Again!
User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 11165 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):

Honestly, aside the usual suspects this might be the best option for AA. They went from being the largest 7 years ago to now the smallest.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineeastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 11128 times:

When is the first 77W scheduled to begin service? Sorry if I missed it.


AA will Rise Again!
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32624 posts, RR: 72
Reply 25, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 11250 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 23):
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):

Honestly, aside the usual suspects this might be the best option for AA. They went from being the largest 7 years ago to now the smallest.

Third largest; AA is larger than B6 in NYC in total passengers carried. They have fallen quite bad in the past decade, but they are still strong in New York, regardless of what people want to think.

At LaGuardia AA is a very strong number two; it is sitting on about two dozen unused slots, as an airlines' LGA slot portfolio only needs to be used 80% on any given day. Growth will be achieved by using those slots and upgauging to larger ERJ-175/190 type aircraft on the regional flights. This I can see happening in the short-term after AA exits bankruptcy.

At JFK AA is sitting on a goldmine of prime European departure slots that are being used for destinations like Las Vegas and Orlando. Growth can be achieved over time by using those slots for their optimal purpose - long-haul - and then adding flights outside European prime departures where slots are easily acquired.

[Edited 2012-06-06 10:02:39]


a.
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 26, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10809 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 25):
At JFK AA is sitting on a goldmine of prime European departure slots that are being used for destinations like Las Vegas and Orlando. Growth can be achieved over time by using those slots for their optimal purpose - long-haul - and then adding flights outside European prime departures where slots are easily acquired.

AA is barely at 2x daily to LAS (3x in a blue moon) ... and you want to trim that to what? 1x ?

For tomorrow (Thurs), JFKMCO departs at 0705 and 1450, neither of which is exactly what you call "prime European departure slot".


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9297 posts, RR: 14
Reply 27, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10499 times:

Quoting realsim (Reply 12):
(DL has 266 CR7 and bigger).

255. Of which 153 can have 76 seats, 102 must have 70 seats or less.

Quoting realsim (Reply 12):
Regional aircraft can have up to 88 seats.

Its almost like people on a.net enjoy seeing carriers go into BK. smh. Why should a judge give them more seats than DL/UA's contract?



yep.
User currently offlinedeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1643 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10471 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 26):
At JFK AA is sitting on a goldmine of prime European departure slots that are being used for destinations like Las Vegas and Orlando.

Do they really? This is interesting discussion about AA/JFK I was just asking myself the other day, what happened to all of TWA's JFK assets after AA bought it? AA dismantle it? Sell some to B6? AA isn't operating nearly what TWA was at JFK...

Does AA really have a bunch of slots at JFK they aren't using? But yeah, I agree with JFKLGANYC in reply 21 what needs to happen if AA really wants to make NYC an official cornerstone, or get off the pot, merge w/ US and be happy with making PHL the prime east coast gateway.


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32624 posts, RR: 72
Reply 29, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10518 times:

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 29):
Does AA really have a bunch of slots at JFK they aren't using?

No, AA is using them - just not for prime purposes (i.e. Europe). AA acquired a dozen slots from jetBlue - all in the prime European departure period - about two years ago. Only two of them have been used for trans-Atlantic flying (MAN and MAD departures). The rest, still domestic.



a.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9297 posts, RR: 14
Reply 30, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10252 times:

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 29):

Do they really? This is interesting discussion about AA/JFK I was just asking myself the other day, what happened to all of TWA's JFK assets after AA bought it? AA dismantle it? Sell some to B6? AA isn't operating nearly what TWA was at JFK...

Employees and GSE would be about it. Route authorities became worthless after open skies, and Terminal 5 is home to jetBlue.
I dont believe at the time of TWA/AA JFK had any slots, maybe just peak time.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 30):

JFK is use it or lose it right? or 80%?

I know at one point Airlines got the green light to sit on some slots because of some of the runway work going on but I believe the period is over.



yep.
User currently offlineTalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8923 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):
That cornerstone in NYC is looking mighty small.

91 departures out of JFK...and they just spent $1.3 billion on a half finished Terminal 8!

Do bear in mind that technically speaking IBs and BAs flights also count as AA, so the number of departures from JFK is, at least in those terms, substantially higher. Unlike DFW or ORD, where AA has a stronger presence than its transatlantic partners, JFK sees a lot of flights both from BA and IB.


User currently onlineHOONS90 From Malaysia, joined Aug 2001, 3003 posts, RR: 53
Reply 32, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8895 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 20):
Where does the CR7 go?


Aspen



The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8410 times:
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Quoting mah4546 (Reply 25):

Yes they have domestic flights on slots that can be used for Europe, but if they want to expand further they will need domestic feed to fill those flights as not all of the flights people are talking about can be filled profitably with just O&D. So if you take away the feed then there goes your chance to make money on those new flights.


User currently offlinerealsim From Spain, joined Apr 2010, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8286 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 27):
Its almost like people on a.net enjoy seeing carriers go into BK. smh. Why should a judge give them more seats than DL/UA's contract?

I don't enjoy it at all, the only thing I pointed is that, right now, AA can only outsource 47 aircraft with 50-68 seats, and NONE bigger than that. This is a huge disadvantage, isn't it? Now, we don't know what the future contract numbers will be, this is just AA's proposal. And, BTW, US has the contract which allows more large RJ by far (446 with more than 76 seats), so APA should take into account...

Source: http://www.restructuringamr.com/our-people-apa-kt2.asp
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):
That cornerstone in NYC is looking mighty small.

91 departures out of JFK...and they just spent $1.3 billion on a half finished Terminal 8!

And no more 757s out of LGA...sad.

They will be relegated to a distant 4 in NYC behind UA, DL and B6 unless they do something drastic:

1. Retrench to JFK and make that an actual hub with all NYC departures (unlikely)

2. Buy B6 (also unlikely with their current financial situation)

3. US buys them and they say adios to the NYC in anything beyond hub and token important market flying

Time will tell.

I could be wrong, but the plan the company has is to codeshare with B6 in all the domestic markets except the ones AA would actually serve, then reduce their domestic regional operations and use those slots for international flights. This means that the total number of departures will not see an important increase, but it will rather change to be more mailine and international focused.

In the company's proposal to the APA back in November, they said:

"As our competitors have consolidated, we are now the third largest network carrier. We would like to expand our network in the northeast. However, we face slot constraints, so we cannot add flying in peak demand times without cutting flying in the same time window. As a result, we cannot grow our northeast operations without domestic codesharing. In contrast, Delta and United both operate full-service hubs in New York, serving and connecting more markets than we do. Additionally, Delta’s and US Airways’ shuttle products are used as sales tools to shift our high value business passengers to their networks."

The concrete proposal was:

* After the Company grows mainline flying, permit the establishment of Domestic Codeshare to address network gaps in JFK.
* Permit the establishment of Domestic Codeshare on a Shuttle product for BOS-LGA-DCA; this codeshare will only be allowed as long as the Company maintains a departure baseline in LGA, DCA, and BOS
* After the Company grows mainline flying, and creates a West Coast satellite base, theCompany can expand the existing Domestic Codeshare with Alaska to address network gaps in LAX/West Coast

Source: http://www.aanegotiations.com/docume...roposal_ExecutiveSummaries_000.pdf

My opinion is that, given that there isn't really another solution, it is a good way to start. AA will focus on lucrative long haul international markets, letting B6 take charge of almost all the feed except the cornerstones and other important domestic markets. Later, in a future, AA could try to convince B6 to join OneWorld, or even merge, who knows...

[Edited 2012-06-06 15:32:47]

User currently onlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8096 times:

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 33):
Yes they have domestic flights on slots that can be used for Europe, but if they want to expand further they will need domestic feed to fill those flights as not all of the flights people are talking about can be filled profitably with just O&D. So if you take away the feed then there goes your chance to make money on those new flights.

It is no secret that AMR wants B6 to provide all the domestic feed in JFK. We'll see what happens in the bankruptcy court



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User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 750 posts, RR: 2
Reply 36, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7357 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 15):
Anyone else also quite shocked that AA only has 11 757 movements out of ORD these days?

Recently, 757 departures are down in all hubs. Within the last year, DFW got ~40 daily, ORD got ~20 daily, and MIA had 90+. MIA has lost the least, but it seems that 738s have filled in a bit at DFW and ORD.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7233 times:

When taxiing at LGA the other day, I saw an AA 752 pushing back for departure to MIA. I guess that's gonna be the last AA 752 I see at LGA for a while.  

On a side note, I was surprised at the amount of AA 738s I saw during my three-hour wait at the gate. I saw about 5 in an hour and a half.


User currently offlineflyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1738 posts, RR: 4
Reply 38, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7151 times:

JFK had 106 departures last summer (as per this same thread, 2011 version)


727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlinelasairlinerenth From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7069 times:
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Quoting FSDan (Reply 11):
On the same day, LAS has 25 departures, all mainline. Mostly MD-82/3s with a few 738s and a single 752 mixed in.

Thanks, FSDan!

Awesome that AA has 25 departures out of LAS and that they're all mainline. I remember there being RJ service for awhile in the mid-2000s -- I think for the flight(s) AA had from LAS to LAX and back. I am surprised we still get one 752; I thought all of AA's service to/from LAS was now M82/3 or 738. Is the 752 a DFW flight and return?

Regards,
Tony


User currently offlineFutureuscapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 7029 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 2):
MIA total is 343
Quoting FSDan (Reply 3):
Whoops, I put the mainline total instead of the grand total. I've updated the original post to be 301 total at MIA.

Unless I still can't add...

Peak day July total is 301.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 25):
At LaGuardia AA is a very strong number two; it is sitting on about two dozen unused slots, as an airlines' LGA slot portfolio only needs to be used 80% on any given day. Growth will be achieved by using those slots and upgauging to larger ERJ-175/190 type aircraft on the regional flights. This I can see happening in the short-term after AA exits bankruptcy.

This unused number seems to grow every time this topic comes up. I'm not sure if you are referring to twenty four slots or twenty four slot pairs, but in any event, it's way overstated.

AA holds 118 slot pairs at LGA; this summer they will operate 113 peak day departures so through creative scheduling, they have five unused pairs meaning that any material growth AA wishes to do at LGA will have to come through upgauges, as you suggest.


User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6931 times:
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Quoting flyby519 (Reply 35):

Yes that's what they want but are they going to get it is another question. AA management and AA pilots will have to come under some terms and I believe that's its either going to be more larger RJs or domestic code share, in my opinion management won't get both. Unions will fight this to the end, even if a new contract is imposed and they are forced to both options the next time they sit down for contact negotiations will be hell. Another thing that we are all almost certain of is that if US and AA merge they will not need a code share with B6 nor would either side want to cooperate like that. Plus i'm sure that the guys connecting and paying for first class will not be happy to ride part of the way in coach class. But that's just my opinion and could be totally wrong.


User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 946 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6700 times:

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 13):
Being located in Hartford, new to the AA network, it seems really annoying to have to connect in [sweet home] Chicago for everything, when NY would be a great deal closer and easier, yet more convenient to fly to instead of drive etc.

Multiple airlines used to have BDL -LGA/JFK connections years ago. At one point DL was flying 762 BDL-JFK-CDG. It all went away after 9/11.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9297 posts, RR: 14
Reply 43, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6593 times:

Quoting realsim (Reply 34):
This is a huge disadvantage, isn't it?

maybe right now, but your bar graph has a flaw or two.
1) how many 50 seat jets can southwest outsource?
2) how many 70 seat jets can the CO side of UA outsource?
Why does that matter, because these two airlines have basically been the most profitable airlines over the last 5-7 years.

Also it is likely that both DCI and UAX will be getting smaller over the next for years and not larger.



yep.
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 750 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6305 times:

Quoting lasairlinerenth (Reply 39):
Is the 752 a DFW flight and return?

It's a LAS-MIA flight.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinelasairlinerenth From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5889 times:
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Quoting FSDan (Reply 44):
It's a LAS-MIA flight.

Gotcha. Thanks, good Sir!


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11463 posts, RR: 61
Reply 46, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5514 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 29):
No, AA is using them - just not for prime purposes (i.e. Europe). AA acquired a dozen slots from jetBlue - all in the prime European departure period - about two years ago. Only two of them have been used for trans-Atlantic flying (MAN and MAD departures). The rest, still domestic.

I generally agree.

AA has plenty of slots at JFK with which to build a stronger operational if/when they want to. There are lots of peak-time slots at JFK today being used for RJs to small markets in the northeast that could be redeployed into larger international and transcon O&D markets if AA had a true 'hub' down at PHL to handle the connections. A large JFK operation optimized for connections, together with a large LGA operation optimized for connections, would be quite the formidable combination.

AA is already essentially tied with JetBlue (AA is slightly larger) for a fairly distant #3 in the New York metro area with United and Delta being essentially tied for #1. However, a hypothetical 'new AA' - combined with USAirways - would be an extremely strong #3, basically 75% of the size of United and Delta, which is perfectly sufficient to be a massive force in the market - again, particularly if AA was then able to stop using JFK for connections and optimize both airports better for the massive local O&D market.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 43):
maybe right now, but your bar graph has a flaw or two.
1) how many 50 seat jets can southwest outsource?
2) how many 70 seat jets can the CO side of UA outsource?
Why does that matter, because these two airlines have basically been the most profitable airlines over the last 5-7 years.

That's a straw man, and it's false. First off, just because Southwest and Continental don't operate large RJs and have been generally profitable (or generally, relatively "more" profitable) in the last decade doesn't mean large RJs are irrelevant. Continental/United will do anything to keep the United SCOPE clause precisely because of how competitively critical it is for a network airline in 2012. Southwest is a meaningless comparison - it's a whole different business model. And, for that matter, it's a whole different business model (Southwest's, that is) that actually isn't all that terribly profitable these days.

For a global, network airline in the U.S. in 2012 - which AA most definitely is - large RJs are absolutely critical. There is simply no other way, in a market as competitive as today's, for an airline of that type to profitably access lots of traffic flows any other way. Smaller RJs have too high a CASM, and there are simply not enough profitable passengers around to fill mainline jets anymore in a lot of these markets in question. Witness, as a rebuttal to your point, the enormous financial success - relative to network peers - that Delta has had in recent years. Now, I'm not going to make the sweeping and broad generalization that this has been driven entirely by their massive fleet of large RJs and generally weak SCOPE clause. But I think we can all agree that is certainly a not-insignificant part of it.

Bottom line is that AA badly needs (and has needed for 5-10 years) a larger fleet of large RJs, and it is critical that they address that - either voluntarily or involuntarily - in bankruptcy. I still contend that if the company and the union put their sabers down, there is absolutely room for a compromise on this. If the pilots agreed to a pay scale for 70-90 seaters that was essentially in line with the going rate for those jets at regional carriers, and in return AA agreed that all of that flying would go to mainline AA pilots on the AA seniority list, that would be a simply breathtaking precedent for the industry and the "profession" that the APA always likes to talk about "defending." There is a deal to be made there - I feel confident - but the question is whether these two sides can actually get to it.


User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3742 posts, RR: 12
Reply 47, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4960 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

It looks like LGA will soon be 757 free, as far as AA is concerned, leaving only the MD-80 and the 738 as mainline jets.

Of course DFW is still MD-80 heaven, as it always was in the last 20 years.

Over 60 MD-80 departures out of ORD:

More than half of that is for departures to LGA and DFW.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 36):
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 15):
Anyone else also quite shocked that AA only has 11 757 movements out of ORD these days?

Recently, 757 departures are down in all hubs. Within the last year, DFW got ~40 daily, ORD got ~20 daily, and MIA had 90+. MIA has lost the least, but it seems that 738s have filled in a bit at DFW and ORD.

It doesn't surprise me to see not many 757 departures daily out of ORD, American flies the 757 to only 2 destinations: MIA and SNA.
American has already begun the 757 retirement, so it is not surprising the the number of departures are going down, and that will continue to go further down.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 750 posts, RR: 2
Reply 48, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4855 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 47):
It doesn't surprise me to see not many 757 departures daily out of ORD, American flies the 757 to only 2 destinations: MIA and SNA.

There is an LAX flight too, and 2x to STL. Still not many destinations, though...



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinelasairlinerenth From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4828 times:
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Quoting American 767 (Reply 47):
American has already begun the 757 retirement, so it is not surprising the the number of departures are going down, and that will continue to go further down.

When I went from Las Vegas to Boston in April, I was really happy to get a 757 for the DFW to BOS leg. When I booked the trip originally back in January, that segment was supposed to be operated by an M80. Not sure why the aircraft was changed to a 757, but glad it was. On that trip alone, all told, I got to ride 3 of AAs fleet types: the M80, the 757, and the 738. Cool stuff.


User currently offlineLONGisland89 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4545 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 47):
It looks like LGA will soon be 757 free, as far as AA is concerned, leaving only the MD-80 and the 738 as mainline jets.

AA 757s will only be absent from LGA for a short while, as they return in the fall.


User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5181 posts, RR: 1
Reply 51, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4330 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 46):
If the pilots agreed to a pay scale for 70-90 seaters that was essentially in line with the going rate for those jets at regional carriers, and in return AA agreed that all of that flying would go to mainline AA pilots on the AA seniority list, that would be a simply breathtaking precedent for the industry and the "profession" that the APA always likes to talk about "defending." There is a deal to be made there - I feel confident - but the question is whether these two sides can actually get to it.

I know some mainline pilots who believed long before bankruptcy that APA should be willing to reduce the pay scale on the larger Embrears (170/175 and 190/195) or the Canadair C-Series in order to secure those aircraft for mainline flying. The only issue is how low pay has to go. There has always been a mindset at APA that a captain with low seniority, on the smallest aircraft type, makes more than a senior F/O on the widebodies. A very junior captain on the F100 made more than a senior 777 F/O flying international.

So, the pay scale can't be reduced to the point that a RJ captain is making less than a senior 777, 787, or 757/767 F/O.


User currently onlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4295 times:

It's not just about mainline pilot pay, the FAs, mechanics, gate agents, rampers, etc need to take wages/benefits below the current regional operators.


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User currently offlinemhkansan From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 672 posts, RR: 1
Reply 53, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4075 times:

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 52):
It's not just about mainline pilot pay, the FAs, mechanics, gate agents, rampers, etc need to take wages/benefits below the current regional operators.

While I'm sure Eagle will be around as an airline for years to come, The stated goal of the company has been to transform Eagle into the largest ground handling operation in the country. Based on recent trends, its already happening. Eagle has access to the entire AA training facilities and support network and has lots of experience working with other air lines at competitive rates.

I'm being told to expect to do some work on the West Coast later this year opening some new MQ stations.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11463 posts, RR: 61
Reply 54, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

Quoting ckfred (Reply 51):
I know some mainline pilots who believed long before bankruptcy that APA should be willing to reduce the pay scale on the larger Embrears (170/175 and 190/195) or the Canadair C-Series in order to secure those aircraft for mainline flying.

Yep - I'm sure there are plenty of pilots who recognize the monumental precedent they would be setting by getting every single jet flying all the way down to 70-seats on the mainline seniority list - to my knowledge, the first time that would have ever happened at a legacy airline. The entire concept of "B-scales" are absolutely anathema to the unions these days - for understandable reasons - but I don't think this even constitutes a B-scale. It simply constitutes paying pilots lower rates for smaller jets, just as has always been done.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 51):
The only issue is how low pay has to go.

That is the key question. In my estimation, AA and the APA should work so that APA mainline pilots flying smaller jets are essentially cost-neutral relative to peers, and basically get around the average compensation among pilots flying comparable jets at other carriers (e.g., SkyWest, Compass, Republic, etc.). I think what would make the most sense would be for these hypothetical mainline-flying-regional pilots to agree to a slightly lower base pay scale relative to, say, SkyWest, Compass, Republic, etc. in exchange for keeping their somewhat richer non-pay compensation and benefits package. That way, this flying is still cost-competitive, but the pilots don't feel that they are truly eroding the value of their overall contract by having multiple pilot groups working under the same contract, but with different benefits.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 52):
It's not just about mainline pilot pay, the FAs, mechanics, gate agents, rampers, etc need to take wages/benefits below the current regional operators.

There is nothing to say the jets - and non-pilot crews - have to be on the mainline certificate. All I am proposing is that the pilots are mainline pilots on the mainline seniority list. The arrangement could work something like this: AA (mainline) buys the 70-90-seat jets, leases them to a regional airline (either owned or more likely non-owned) to operate them under the 'American Eagle' brand, and then AA (mainline) sources the pilots to fly said jets, while the regional airline (again, either owned or non-owned) sources everything else. I think such an arrangement - if the numbers were in the right place - could work for everybody.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 53):
The stated goal of the company has been to transform Eagle into the largest ground handling operation in the country. Based on recent trends, its already happening. Eagle has access to the entire AA training facilities and support network and has lots of experience working with other air lines at competitive rates.

If AA is intent to outsource as much ground handling at line stations as possible - as appears to be the case, and as is relatively logical in most cases - than I think it might well make perfect sense to formally separate Eagle's ground handling business into an independent profit center, as Eagle seems to have really struck upon something when it comes to the ground handling business. Indeed, it seems from the Eagle prospectus AMR produced last year (pre-bankruptcy), and statements before and since, that ground handling is one of the most profitable segments of Eagle right now. Why not turn Eagle's ground handling into a separate business, with its own P&L responsibility, and make it the preferred supplier for Eagle and mainline at applicable stations?


User currently onlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 54):
There is nothing to say the jets - and non-pilot crews - have to be on the mainline certificate. All I am proposing is that the pilots are mainline pilots on the mainline seniority list. The arrangement could work something like this: AA (mainline) buys the 70-90-seat jets, leases them to a regional airline (either owned or more likely non-owned) to operate them under the 'American Eagle' brand, and then AA (mainline) sources the pilots to fly said jets, while the regional airline (again, either owned or non-owned) sources everything else. I think such an arrangement - if the numbers were in the right place - could work for everybody.

Agreed, that would be a great setup. The only hitch would be the training cost of current mainline pilots leaving to fly for the RJ operator and then eventually coming back, but I am sure there could be a several year seat lock that would recoup the training cost. That might be the only way to get APA to bend on scope outside of 1113.



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User currently offlinedsuairptman From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 892 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3451 times:

Quoting realsim (Reply 12):
Of course, this proposal would be one of the least restrictives scope clauses (although less than US Airways), so it will be reduced. However, it demonstrates that AA wants to operate the E190, which would be the perfect replacement for half of the M80 fleet, with the other half being replaced with the already ordered A319s.

Wrong, the B738 is replacing the MD80. The E190 would be to add a 100 seat aircraft that AA hasn't had since they operated they F100.



GEAUX SAINTS!
User currently offlinejonathanxxxx From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 673 posts, RR: 1
Reply 57, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3433 times:

Quoting dsuairptman (Reply 56):

But the E190 can replace MD-80 usage to smaller markets with lower operating costs and can also allow for higher frequency. So technically it can replace a few MD-80's but not half the fleet.


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