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More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision  
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12476 posts, RR: 37
Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 20101 times:

BA is said to be looking at the possibility of adding more 77Ws to its fleet, as part of its plans to roll over its long haul fleet over the next few years; it will take delivery of its first A380s and 787s next year; although these were late, it was able to keep some of its 744s in service longer, an option it is not likely to have with the A350-1000/777X, which will enter service later this decade, when BA's 744 fleet will be a lot older. One of its deciding factors will be the level of certainty about deliveries.

The decision will be made by IAG on behalf of both IB and BA, but with BA (and presumably ) IB having a major input.

After that, BA will look at the feasibility of replacing its short haul fleet at LGW.

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5244 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 19971 times:

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
After that, BA will look at the feasibility of replacing its short haul fleet at LGW.

I believe they are replacing 6 734's at LGW with 733's from WW.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 19907 times:

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
One of its deciding factors will be the level of certainty about deliveries.

In other words, the cost of a D-check on a 100,000+-hour 744 will pay for a fair amount of fuel...


User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 564 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 19774 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
the cost of a D-check on a 100,000+-hour 744

Ok, I am game. Any idea what that would cost?


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19399 times:

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 3):
Ok, I am game. Any idea what that would cost?

There are people on here who are vastly more qualified than me to answer that question, but I've seen numbers between $2 and $4 million thrown around for a 747 D-check.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19200 times:

Do you think they may switch the LHR-PHX flight to a 77W?


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4769 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18985 times:
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Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
There are people on here who are vastly more qualified than me to answer that question, but I've seen numbers between $2 and $4 million thrown around for a 747 D-check.

Thats only 2-3 months lease payments for a 77W. Surely its higher for a D check?


User currently offlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 506 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18885 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
Do you think they may switch the LHR-PHX flight to a 77W?

I do not see this happening for another year at least, although I'd be thrilled if BA did switch over to 77W on this route.... Its time BA deployed fresh metal on LHR-PHX.



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8546 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 18399 times:
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Quoting anstar (Reply 1):

- why replace owned 734's with leased 733's?

Not heard anything about this.......



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 18020 times:

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 7):
I do not see this happening for another year at least, although I'd be thrilled if BA did switch over to 77W on this route.... Its time BA deployed fresh metal on LHR-PHX.

But it is such a rush to see the ol' Jumbo roar over my house daily 



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12476 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17992 times:

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 8):
why replace owned 734's with leased 733's?

I've heard this rumour and while it may be true, it's only going to be a stopgap - if it does happen at all. Six 733s - of similar vintage and smaller capacity - are not going to be a good replacement for 734s; I suspect the only reason they're doing this is because they'll face penalties if they break the leases for the 733s, so basing them at LGW is the least bad option.

Ultimately, I think the LGW short haul operation is in its sunset days; they will move the best business routes to LCY (operated by E-170/190s) and gradually shut down the rest of them, leaving BE, FR and U2 to fight over the crumbs.


User currently offlineBA174 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 760 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17830 times:

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 8):
Quoting anstar (Reply 1):

- why replace owned 734's with leased 733's?

Not heard anything about this.......


Exactly I don't believe it at all.

The 734s are probably BAs only full fleet of paid off aircraft (maybe 767s too). The whole reason BAs leased LGW 733/5s went a few years ago was to stem costs and have less leased aircraft. Bringing the 733s to LGW would increase costs.

I suspect they will be returned as soon as WW wind up in September.


User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7496 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17564 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
Do you think they may switch the LHR-PHX flight to a 77W?

Would a 77W have trouble in the Summer departing PHX ?



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17505 times:

Quoting from Flightglobal today...

...Meanwhile BA is also turning its attention to the replacement of the ageing 737-400 fleet that serve its short-haul network from London Gatwick. But Williams says that he must be sure of a sound business case for Gatwick's short-haul operations. "I need to justify that [fleet replacement] to IAG with a plan that is built around the ability to make a return," he says.


User currently offlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 17483 times:

Another interesting quote from Flightglobal regarding BA B.777's possible future....

In the interim, BA has taken six of eight 777-300ERs it has on order, which are "partly a hedge on late deliveries", and Williams says that one option could be to take more. "The problem is, is the next generation going to be so much more fuel efficient than 777-300ERs to make it worth waiting for? But I'm conscious of the fact that if you wait for something and it never turns up eventually you don't have any aircraft."


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 16186 times:

Quoting United_fan (Reply 12):
Would a 77W have trouble in the Summer departing PHX ?

One took off for JL back in March when It was quite hot outside (upper 90s, unseasonably warm) without any issues, but you're right, I'm not 100% sure.....



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 16127 times:

Quoting United_fan (Reply 12):
Would a 77W have trouble in the Summer departing PHX ?

For a relatively short flight to London? Not at all. DXB has summer conditions that are just as vicious and EK flies 77Ws far, far further.


User currently offlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 506 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 15598 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
But it is such a rush to see the ol' Jumbo roar over my house daily

If the routes haven't already been declared by BA, I see a greater possibility of they switching to 787 rather than 77W next year.....



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 15480 times:
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BA needs to step up to the plate and commit to 777-300ER's. BA needs 20 77W's because if the sign for x 777-9 they will not arrive at LHR until 2018. BA's 744 fleet ,especially the 1989-1992 delivered ones, need to go to that retirement home in the desert of Arizona.

User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9425 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 15115 times:

Quoting United_fan (Reply 12):

I can't think of may things that gives the beast (aka the GE-90-115B) problems.

but for real, EK does a good bit longer from DXB without problem.



yep.
User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14599 times:

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 14):

Another interesting quote from Flightglobal regarding BA B.777's possible future....

In the interim, BA has taken six of eight 777-300ERs it has on order, which are "partly a hedge on late deliveries", and Williams says that one option could be to take more. "The problem is, is the next generation going to be so much more fuel efficient than 777-300ERs to make it worth waiting for? But I'm conscious of the fact that if you wait for something and it never turns up eventually you don't have any aircraft."

The problem with this, of course, is that they'll have to wait another 6/7 years minimum for delivery of A350/77X..and that's only if they order sooner, rather than later, as JFK said..

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
BA needs 20 77W's because if the sign for x 777-9 they will not arrive at LHR until 2018. BA's 744 fleet ,especially the 1989-1992 delivered ones, need to go to that retirement home in the desert of Arizona.

..after looking at their fleet, however, I don't think BA is in too bad a position here. A good number of their 744's (20) are less than 15 years old. They could definitely make these last until the end of the decade if they needed to, purchase another 10-12 77W's, and lease additional frames as needed during the time period to make ends meet. Although, there would be some uncertainty/risk associated with this, as we don't know how delays in the A350/77X programs might affect availability, and could screw up future fleet plans made in advance.

If BA do end up ordering more 77W, I could definitely see them as a possible launch customer for the 77X program, as it would be a sensible addition to what may become a fairly sizable fleet of 77W's in the mean time. A wide-body fleet of A380s, 77E/W/Xs, and 787s to go along with their A320 narrow body fleet would suit them nicely for the future, IMO. The 77-8X (or potential 787-10, for that matter) would make sense as well, as their numerous 77E's will need replacing around end-of-decade too.


Off topic, but on the narrow body side, I wonder if BA will consider the C-series for replacement of some of their older A319's in 8-10 years. The main reason I bring this up is that they could definitely see significant revenue benefits from plugging the CS100 on their LCY-JFK biz route (for which another airline has already ordered the -100), and the CS300 would compliment potential -100's well on the low capacity end of the fleet. Probably unlikely, as the A319neo IMO would be a perfectly fine choice, with plenty of fleet commonality benefit, but it's an alternative I think they should consider nonetheless..

[Edited 2012-06-07 19:12:03]

[Edited 2012-06-07 20:09:40]

User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1885 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14431 times:

BA doesn't have any 77Ls in the fleet. Surely, you were probably thinking about their 77Es?


STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13847 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 21):

My mistake; good catch! (just keeping you on your toes)   


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3590 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 12345 times:

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
it will take delivery of its first A380s and 787s next year; although these were late, it was able to keep some of its 744s in service longer, an option it is not likely to have with the A350-1000/777X, which will enter service later this decade, when BA's 744 fleet will be a lot older. One of its deciding factors will be the level of certainty about deliveries.

The earliest 744's arfe being replaced by the A380's, in all likelihood, the later ones will be replaced at a similar age. By BA standards many are little over half way through their life. Don't panic !!!

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
The decision will be made by IAG on behalf of both IB and BA, but with BA (and presumably ) IB having a major input.

What a baffling statement, what is there to IAG other than BA and IB ? IAG comprises entirely of senioe executives who moved over from the respective airlines.


User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 11720 times:

I wonder if BA will be interested in the "quiet A380" that Airbus are pushing at the moment - the presentation specifically mentioned that it was so quiet that it could take off at night at LHR - could open up a load more slots for BA?

25 BA174 : G-BNLE, the oldest aircraft in BAs fleet has just came out of another heavy check so I doubt it will be retired first when the A380s come. Plus it has
26 CHRISBA777ER : Mate it could run on banana peel, be 100% silent on take-off and shower the area in £20 notes as it takes off - the locals still wont wear it.
27 ba319-131 : - And most of the local work either at the airport too! We should all remember the airport was the first, individuals have moved close to be near the
28 f4f3a : im surprised ba has only ordered 12 a380s considering the size of their 400 fleet. I would think that a large 777 -300 / new gen would probaly get the
29 sweair : This does not matter, NIMBYs are important to win the election for any politician. Sad times we live in, so many people that should not have influenc
30 sweair : Would the 777-9X be interesting for BA? It would replace the 744 very close in capacity at a much lower fuel burn. How many seats will it typically ha
31 CHRISBA777ER : Yes. Its a straight fight between that and the A35J in my mind. My gut says they'll take a load of A359s very shortly for a 2018+ EIS, but that this
32 Post contains images scouseflyer : In about 2015, accross IAG they could easily end up with: 767 (on thier way out) A330 787 A350 A340 777 (with 777X on the way) 747 A380 the royal flu
33 Post contains images Stitch : There still is some positive PR to be had if they did operate such a fleet (which should be fine for missions to North America and Africa) by noting
34 AA777223 : I would guess they wouldn't be "the" launch customer. They might be able to get in on the deal, but there are several large airlines expressing stron
35 sweair : The 777-9X must be the best 744 replacement if you don't need to grow capacity? Qantas would probably take them if they were for sale now, but it is m
36 kaitak : Just quoting (altough I added the IB bit) from the Flight article. I know you and most people here know IB and BA are under the IAG umbrella! As for
37 davs5032 : I would think that both the 778 and -9X would be appealing for BA, as you've inferred. BA's current 744's seat 329 in four classes, while a different
38 davs5032 : I agree with your reasoning. However, a more significant consideration is that BA is an airline already configuring their 77W with 10X seating. There
39 Bongodog1964 : BA 10X seating ? this has been gone for many years, then it was only three aircraft on the LGW beach fleet.
40 jumpjets : With no 777s in their fleet and a recent order for A333s IB may beg to differ when making their pitch to IAG for a long haul replacement for their 34
41 Post contains links AirbusA6 : BA is happily a 9Y 777 customer, so it is very relevant whether the proposed thinner cabin walls of the 779X would make enough space at 10Y for them.
42 Post contains images trex8 : Like QF with the 777??
43 United Airline : How many options does BA have? I am sure BA will exercise them and will eventually order more A 380s. Maybe up to 30-50 even.
44 ncfc99 : As stated above, the 380 orders and options can take care of the 1989-1992 744's. From 2018 onwards, BA will need to start taking delivery of new air
45 dbo861 : Not at all like QF. They aren't already a 777 operator.
46 jet72uk : Ultimately, I think the LGW short haul operation is in its sunset days; they will move the best business routes to LCY (operated by E-170/190s) and g
47 art : I'm not sure that BA management and staff are capable of switching to thinking in an LCC way. Without embracing LCC philosophy and culture, you can r
48 kaitak : No, it''s not. They want to keep the business custom and moving this closer to where these travellers want to go (i,.e. the City) makes sense; that w
49 jumpjets : You may want to forget them but sadly for IAG they can't! I can't agree more - on a recent flight from LHR to HAV via MAD the MAD-HAV service was alm
50 VV701 : I believe they hold options on seven A 380s. When looking at what any airline might purchase as a "replacement" for aircraft it plans to retire there
51 sweair : Having a 777 fleet makes this choice easy, the 777-X will be very similar.
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