SASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 549 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 11375 times:
As an Airbus fan I have some hesitations about this order. Isn't Norwegian 10 years late with responding to the low cost hype?
- Even though the Nordic countries have relatively seen the most air routes at least in Europe, can the number of ordered airplanes really be deployed? The Nordics have around 20 mln inhabitants. They also have some dozen 737s on order.....
- With the economic downturn in the EU and the moderate growth in Norway, is it wise to expand that fast?
- With EZY, Ryanair and Air Berlin on the market, will they have any chance? Also FlyBe Nordic has entered the market too.
- What about SAS?
kl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 14 Reply 2, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 11244 times:
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 1): Even though the Nordic countries have relatively seen the most air routes at least in Europe, can the number of ordered airplanes really be deployed? The Nordics have around 20 mln inhabitants. They also have some dozen 737s on order.....
They can, and most likely will, open up bases and routes all over Europe. And a large number of planes is needed anyway for feeding the 787 lowcost longhaul fleet.
" The European consumer would crawl naked over broken glass to get low fares." Michael O'Leary
Roseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8744 posts, RR: 52 Reply 4, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10988 times:
Even with replacement, Norweigian has orders for 4 times its current fleet. That's massive expansion. I am still amazed at the expansion that they are planning, but as Ryanair and Easyjet have cut back expansion plans, I guess there is still opportunity for NAS. There's no need for 200 airplanes flying around Scandinavia, so you have to wonder where they are going to go.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
Chiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 907 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10810 times:
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 4): There's no need for 200 airplanes flying around Scandinavia, so you have to wonder where they are going to go.
It's of course a risk, but I think they will succeed because of several reasons:
* Hubs in "all" over Europe.
* Routes way beyond Europe
* Norway's strong financial state
* Weak main competitor (SAS)
* Deliveries of NEO and MAX will span a decade, later frames maybe replacing earlier ones.
And if Norwegian's plan fails NEO and MAX frames and production slots will be highly lucrative
sweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1551 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10621 times:
I think Norwegian will replace SAS for Scandinavian aviation in 10 years. I know both the Norwegian and Swedish government is fed up with the losses by SAS. Only Denmark wants to keep paying more into that black hole.
CXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 2696 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9646 times:
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 1): They also have some dozen 737s on order.....
A lot more than some dozen.
75 737-800's on order, 100 737Max + 100 options, and now 100 A320neo + 50 options.
There is still plenty of room for growth. Soon, they'll retire the 737-300's (haven't so far, as they've needed that capacity), and the later 737-800's and the 737Max + A320neo's will be used to replace earlier 737-800's.
Although, I do think they'll try to grow in the Eastern European markets with the A320neo's. With the new aircraft type, they can easily create new pilot contracts, where pilots earn quite a bit less than 737 pilots. So, that lowers costs in an already low cost market (that is if they do what I think).
Norwegian's plans are ambitious, and I hope they do well. With enough low cost feeding traffic, they're intercontinental operation could also prove very successful.
Hamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2657 posts, RR: 59 Reply 8, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8971 times:
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 1): As an Airbus fan I have some hesitations about this order.
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 4): Even with replacement, Norweigian has orders for 4 times its current fleet.
I wouldn't be too worried. According to a source, the NEO's won't actually be flying for DY. Sorry, can't say more than that till they publically anounce their plans.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5291 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8802 times:
Quoting sweair (Reply 6): I think Norwegian will replace SAS for Scandinavian aviation in 10 years.
I hope not, connecting with Norwegian is a PITA, they don't have the route network that comes close to SAS (in conjunction with Star) their FFP is crap, no lounges, and they keep on losing my baggage, in the last 10 domestic flights with Norwegian they've lost my baggage 3 times, I only fly to Oslo return.
g2scandinavia From Norway, joined Jun 2010, 440 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8343 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9): I hope not, connecting with Norwegian is a PITA, they don't have the route network that comes close to SAS (in conjunction with Star) their FFP is crap, no lounges, and they keep on losing my baggage, in the last 10 domestic flights with Norwegian they've lost my baggage 3 times, I only fly to Oslo return.
Lost your luggage trice? Norwegians luggage performance are actually better than SAS due to more point to point flights.
That being said, I have no doubt that lost luggage occurs on DY flights, but I would really like to see some evidence of your luggage being lost trice within 10 domestic flights!
I would therefore really like to know your definition of LOST luggage?
I will also strongly recommend you to look into Norwegians business model. They defines themselves as a LCC with a network and fleet adapted to their business model. Judging their Frequent Flyer Program and lack of Lounges as crap is just ridiculous as they do not have such and does not intend to acquire any. FFP are still banned within Norway and they Cash rewards aren't marketed as a FFP program.
someone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 2780 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8211 times:
Quoting g2scandinavia (Reply 12): Judging their Frequent Flyer Program and lack of Lounges as crap is just ridiculous as they do not have such and does not intend to acquire any. FFP are still banned within Norway and they Cash rewards aren't marketed as a FFP program.
vegetables2001 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 93 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8168 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9): I hope not, connecting with Norwegian is a PITA, they don't have the route network that comes close to SAS (in conjunction with Star) their FFP is crap, no lounges, and they keep on losing my baggage, in the last 10 domestic flights with Norwegian they've lost my baggage 3 times, I only fly to Oslo return.
95% of people who pay for their own flights don't give a rats ass about all these ridiculous extras, so why offer them?
Norwegian make a profit, there are plenty of loss making moribund airlines that do offer all this rubbish, why not fly on them?
I'm sorry, but thats horse manure. Norwegian are loss making
FEB
Bjorn Kjos, chief executive, said that the fall in profits – which was partly due to a 32 per cent rise in average fuel prices – was nothing to be alarmed about.
sweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1551 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7970 times:
Norwegians loss wont be added to my tax bill, SAS loss will, why should I cheer SAS losses? I would rather build more schools or high ways than keep SAS alive, is that strange?
g2scandinavia From Norway, joined Jun 2010, 440 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7936 times:
Quoting someone83 (Reply 14): That is why it crap: they don't have any!
Well few people refers to Elkem as crap because they do not produce aluminium car frames, but just the raw materials?
Judging a product for not being what it never intended to be, is an ignorance not worth discussing further!
g2scandinavia From Norway, joined Jun 2010, 440 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7877 times:
Quoting bestwestern (Reply 16): I'm sorry, but that's horse manure. Norwegian are loss making
All operators based in the north of Europe are faced with significant losses because of very challenging weather conditions during October to April. Especially Q1 is a month where no airline delivers profit in Scandinavia. I think few really realises the complexity of airline operations up here in the winter time.
However for the year end, Norwegian has been profitable for both 2010 and 2011.
But I do agree with you, It's a very risky game they are entering!
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5291 posts, RR: 3 Reply 20, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7697 times:
Quoting g2scandinavia (Reply 12): Lost your luggage trice? Norwegians luggage performance are actually better than SAS due to more point to point flights.
That being said, I have no doubt that lost luggage occurs on DY flights, but I would really like to see some evidence of your luggage being lost trice within 10 domestic flights!
I would therefore really like to know your definition of LOST luggage?
My flights on DY are all between Molde and Olso, so far DY have lost (as in it never turned up) my luggage 1 and the other two times the luggage arrived the next day, all three times it was from Molde to Oslo, I find this ridiculous because DY don't serve any destinations other than Oslo from Molde. SK (and Star partners) have only lost my luggage twice in over 400 flights, both times it arrived the following day.
Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 15):
95% of people who pay for their own flights don't give a rats ass about all these ridiculous extras, so why offer them?
I don't have to pay for my flights, I like the lounges as I tend to spend a couple of hours in Oslo before I get a connecting flight, sitting in a lounge is far more enjoyable than wandering around the airport of sitting at a gate.
What I do like about DY is the staff, on average they are significantly younger and more enthusiastic than those flying for SK, I find a lot of the SK cabin crew old, tired and no longer interested in providing decent service.
Chiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 907 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5813 times:
Quoting bestwestern (Reply 16): I'm sorry, but thats horse manure. Norwegian are loss making
Oh .. you're wrong.
Norwegian have made profits for the last 5 years.
It's only this first quarter of 2012 that has been a loss. But then again it seems like "every" airline on the planet have been struggling this quarter.
Passenger carried has been rising steadily while load factor rests on 80.
Well few people refers to Elkem as crap because they do not produce aluminium car frames, but just the raw materials?
Judging a product for not being what it never intended to be, is an ignorance not worth discussing further!
uh-hum, that was quite below the belt line......got a new employer since I hit a nerve?
First of all: Norwegian is in the airline business, and they have a sort of frequent flyer program in the Norwegian Reward. My personal opinion is that this is worthless for frequent flyers, although you might disagree. Not what they do in the air, all though I always found their crew rather lazy, but that they ground service is not good enough for frequent flyers. Lounges is one thing, but not portanr, but their lack of fast track, internet/mobile check in and customer treatment. And this is why I avoid them when possible
But you know I'm always willing to discus this over a beer
Norwegian tries to get the frequent business travellers, but so far they haven't done a good enough job convincing me
You might know more about this than me, but last time I checked Elkem doesn't produce aluminium, and neither do I see the relevance in this case?
I wouldn't be too worried. According to a source, the NEO's won't actually be flying for DY. Sorry, can't say more than that till they publically anounce their plans.
Regards,
Hamlet69
I think many persons here should pay attention to your post
Who says these will be flying for Norwegian
Quoting bestwestern (Reply 23):
How can a company with a market cap of 2.3bn buy something worth 127bn?
What was the total profit of Norwegian over the last five years? How many aircraft does that pay for?
Does God get peeved if you dont use a capital 'g' ?
This is irrelevant....even before you brought in religion. Never underestimat what you're able to finance
I wouldn't be too worried. According to a source, the NEO's won't actually be flying for DY. Sorry, can't say more than that till they publically anounce their plans.
Regards,
Hamlet69
I think many persons here should pay attention to your post
Who says these will be flying for Norwegian
Quoting bestwestern (Reply 23):
How can a company with a market cap of 2.3bn buy something worth 127bn?
What was the total profit of Norwegian over the last five years? How many aircraft does that pay for?
Does God get peeved if you dont use a capital 'g' ?
This is irrelevant....even before you brought in religion. Never underestimat what you're able to finance
LifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1880 posts, RR: 8 Reply 29, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5197 times:
Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 8): I wouldn't be too worried. According to a source, the NEO's won't actually be flying for DY. Sorry, can't say more than that till they publically anounce their plans.
Hmmm... There were some discussions in another thread about Finnair cooperating with Norwegian...
Asiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1019 posts, RR: 1 Reply 30, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5107 times:
Quoting bestwestern (Reply 23): How can a company with a market cap of 2.3bn buy something worth 127bn?
What was the total profit of Norwegian over the last five years? How many aircraft does that pay for?
Market cap is not relevant. As long as you have cash-flow to pay for the expenses, there is no real problem. Few airlines chokes up all money from own pockets for aircraft purchase. There is normally a bank or leasing company involved. Aircrafts are not too difficult to finance as it is good collateral itself.
scbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 11362 posts, RR: 50 Reply 31, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4903 times:
Quoting bestwestern (Reply 23): How can a company with a market cap of 2.3bn buy something worth 127bn?
What was the total profit of Norwegian over the last five years? How many aircraft does that pay for?
Seriously?
The same way that I'm able to buy a house - I can just about muster 10% of the purchase price from my savings, the rest I borrow and pay back from my cashflow. Doesn't any airline do exactly the same thing when buying planes? You don't think EK pays for all their planes from cash on hand, do you?
Another popular alternative for airlines is to buy the plane from the OEM, then sell it to a leasing company and lease the same frame back.
sweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1551 posts, RR: 0 Reply 33, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4578 times:
They will takes these frames over 10 years or more, like others posted, just putting a small amount of their own cash into them. They wont pay all that upfront. And the leasing firms handle most of the sums anyway.
SS has plans to buy some 50 new frames, they are even worse off financially, nobody doubts them, why is that? The endless deep taxpayer pocket?
HELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 643 posts, RR: 1 Reply 34, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4388 times:
Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 29): Hmmm... There were some discussions in another thread about Finnair cooperating with Norwegian...
Yes Finnair is looking for a partner to operate their European flights, AY and DY have been dating already before but nothing has come out. But who knows, AY even own a small slice of DY.
LN-KGL From Norway, joined Sep 1999, 803 posts, RR: 4 Reply 38, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3983 times:
Look like a lot of hot and high departures here today.
As I see it, the A320neos can have two functions:
1. To safeguard access to new airframes if the B738MAX becomes B738lateMAX.
2. Airframes for joint ventures at the Asian and American ends of the intercontinental network to secure feed.
For Boeing to avoid embarrassing themselves, they need to deliver the goods on time - and the MAX need to be MAX not an overweight max. What will happen to the A320neos if Boeing manage deliver the MAX? We may well see some sort of American Air Shuttle and Thai Air Shuttle with local investors (according to local regulations) and they will use these A320neos from JFK and BKK. Am I right Hamlet69? Could it be existing US and Asian airlines that can be a joint venture partners?
poLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3943 times:
Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 38): We may well see some sort of American Air Shuttle and Thai Air Shuttle with local investors (according to local regulations) and they will use these A320neos from JFK and BKK. Am I right Hamlet69? Could it be existing US and Asian airlines that can be a joint venture partners?
It would be far easier, not to mention much less risky, to just partner with a current American/Asian airline than attempt to create their own. My guess based on his comment would be they (the Neos) will still be based in Europe, but not operating under the Norwegian brand name.
LN-KGL From Norway, joined Sep 1999, 803 posts, RR: 4 Reply 40, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3892 times:
Quoting poLot (Reply 39): It would be far easier, not to mention much less risky, to just partner with a current American/Asian airline than attempt to create their own. My guess based on his comment would be they (the Neos) will still be based in Europe, but not operating under the Norwegian brand name.
I don't think we can expect any answer from Hamlet69, either confirming or denying this. One thing is for sure, many surprises can be expected the coming years.
lukeyboy95 From Papua New Guinea, joined Apr 2008, 951 posts, RR: 35 Reply 42, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3488 times:
Norwegian might be in a good place to capitalise on an airbridge from Russia and onward into various European destinations. PAX still seem to pay a premium in this market.
Other close proximity airlines have been putting feelers into Russia because of geographic advantage,. - Aerosvit/ Air Baltic.
And it was commented that even some Finnish FR routes attract many Russian pax.
sweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1551 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3306 times:
Yeah going forward Norwegian has a lot of tricks up its sleeve, its a very flexible operation, very modern structure. I think they will out last SAS for sure, not weighted down by unions and political crap.
poLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 45, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3018 times:
Quoting g2scandinavia (Reply 43): What kind of rellevance does Russia have here? Norwegian does not serve the Russian market except of two weekly to LED?
He was suggesting that Norwegian might be interested in expanding into Russia.
eaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 956 posts, RR: 0 Reply 47, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2668 times:
Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 8): I wouldn't be too worried. According to a source, the NEO's won't actually be flying for DY. Sorry, can't say more than that till they publically anounce their plans.
I wanted to share my idea about what I think Norwegian is going to do with their A320NEO's. Keep in mind that I am simply talking without any knowledge of this.
I think that they are going to set up base in Keflavik, Iceland and deploy them on the North-Atlantic in a LCC hub-and-spoke type of system where they will be able to serve perhaps 40 destinations in North America and 60 destinations in Europe. With an A320 you can make a lot of destinations work that don't work with a B767 or bigger (or even a B757). This would be the first true low cost carrier on the North-Atlantic that could make life difficult for the established carriers. They might even merge with or buy Icelandair.
Like I said this is just random speculation.
Here is the basic idea given assuming that the A320NEO can fly 3200nm on a daily basis. The highlighted area is 3200nm from KEF:
eaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 956 posts, RR: 0 Reply 50, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2459 times:
Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 49): But what about their B788s then eaa3?
Like I said this is just a random idea that I have no reason to think might be reasonable. They´ll probably do something else. This is just what I think they should do.
With the B787 you could do a lot more from KEF. Add hub-and-spoke between North America and India and more places in Eurasia as well as destinations on the West Coast. Iceland is an unbeatable location for an LCC transatlantic hub-and-spoke system.
I've always found Norwegians 787 strategy to be strange. Let's keep in mind that SAS only has 11 long range planes (A330's and A340's) that operate from Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen. Norwegian plans to operate 8 787's from Oslo. Maybe they'll deploy them to Stockholm and Copenhagen as well but this is a huge fleet given today's long haul operations from these airports. And I don't see Oslo as a great place to connect if your going to mainland Europe. It's a bit out of the way. So I think that 8 planes is a bit much if your not planning to connect passengers to outside of Scandinavia.
I do however think that Norwegian is genuine in their intention to use their 787's from Oslo. I just think it's a little to optimistic. Keep in mind that most of SAS's losses come from their long haul operations.
Again with regard to KEF I'm just putting an idea out there that I have no reason to think that it's reasonable.
I don't wish, however, to hijack this thread with unrelated speculation.
Mortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3228 posts, RR: 2 Reply 51, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2412 times:
Quoting eaa3 (Reply 50): I've always found Norwegians 787 strategy to be strange. Let's keep in mind that SAS only has 11 long range planes (A330's and A340's) that operate from Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen. Norwegian plans to operate 8 787's from Oslo. Maybe they'll deploy them to Stockholm and Copenhagen as well but this is a huge fleet given today's long haul operations from these airports. And I don't see Oslo as a great place to connect if your going to mainland Europe. It's a bit out of the way. So I think that 8 planes is a bit much if your not planning to connect passengers to outside of Scandinavia.
The 8 787 8's that they have on order is only what they have gotten their hands on at the moment. The CEO has indicated a number of 20 if everything is going well. The problem for Norwegian is that they have'nt been able to find enough 787's fast enough.
AirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 611 posts, RR: 1 Reply 52, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2305 times:
Quoting eaa3 (Reply 50): Let's keep in mind that SAS only has 11 long range planes (A330's and A340's) that operate from Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen. Norwegian plans to operate 8 787's from Oslo. Maybe they'll deploy them to Stockholm and Copenhagen as well but this is a huge fleet given today's long haul operations from these airports.
SK may not be the best comparison point. Most people flying long-haul out of Scandinavia select other carriers, BA, LH, AY. AY alone has 15 long-haul planes from one city. With a proper business plan, 8 aircraft is actually a very small number.
In any case, I love your Reykjavik idea. Lets hope they do it!
CPHFF From Sweden, joined Aug 2011, 120 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1651 times:
Will these new planes have better legroom ? ? ?
I flew DY 3580 CPH-PRG on a 738 this morning, and the legroom was really bad. I was lucky it was only a 1h 10 min flight, but I can't imagine spending + 5 hs ARN-DXB in than thing.
Loved the free Wi-Fi though
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