Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AF447: Was AF Captain With A Woman?  
User currently offlineloalq From Switzerland, joined Jan 2007, 219 posts, RR: 3
Posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 30702 times:

From abcnews.com:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...an-when-flight-447-was-in-trouble/

Odd suggestion being made here. And even if he was (we might never know for sure if this indeed delayed his return to the cockpit), his absence from the flight deck is not enough to justify the situation they got themselves into. His experience might have come in hand, but afaik none of them ever had a clue of what was going on.


"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3609 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 30321 times:

Quoting loalq (Thread starter):
but afaik none of them ever had a clue of what was going on.

Dubois seemed to figure it out right before the crash, but the PF either was not listening to him (Dubois repeatedly said "no, don't climb!") or by then it was just too late. So the delay may have made a difference. Either corrective action wouldn't have been too late if he'd have arrived earlier, or he would have had more time to make the PF understand what was going on.

As for why he was delayed, I'm not sure if that matters or not... I don't know what the regs actually are for a captain on a scheduled break. I'm sure he's supposed to be available in the event of an emergency but is there any sort of time limit for how long it can take him to get back to the cockpit? I kinda doubt it. And I doubt it matters what he's doing on his break (although he's supposed to be napping... but that wouldn't have necessarily made his return to the cockpit any quicker).

Obviously it's preferable if the captain can be back in the cockpit within seconds of any emergency. But even if he's just napping, that's not always going to be possible. What if he's in a deep sleep? What if he's on the pot in the toilet? There could be any number of things that could delay a captain's return when he's on a break. You can't put someone on a break and then say "but you have to sit bolt upright and wide awake the entire time, just in case something happens." That's not a break and it doesn't satisfy the point of the break, which is to make sure the captain is rested during critical phases of flight.

So, my point is yes, maybe without the delay, things might have been different. But the reason for the delay I don't think matters much because it could have been any number of things, and I really don't think there's anything you can do about the possibility of that when somebody's on a scheduled break. The pilots in the cockpit have to know how to fly the plane.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineZKCIF From Lithuania, joined Oct 2010, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 30215 times:

I believe theoretically all three pilots should have been and were competent enough to pilot the plane. If Mr. Dubois was too late, it is NOT a problem with HIM, it IS a problem with THE OTHER TWO and AIR FRANCE who hired and (under)trained them. For me, Mr. Dubois is not guilty of anything, I believbe he did his very best to be back as soon as possible and to understand what was happening

User currently offlinefalkerker From Seychelles, joined Apr 2012, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 29914 times:

If Mr Dubois is on his break does it really matter what he is up to? I mean, even if it is as they suggest and he was having some good time with a crewmember, it only took him a minute or so to get to the flight deck.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 1):
What if he's in a deep sleep? What if he's on the pot in the toilet?

What if he was doing whatever he wanted to.

Just one (probably noob) question. If he figured out what was wrong, and the PF didn´t do what he should´ve (or what Mr Dubois was convinced he should) couldn´t Mr Dubois have seized control of the aircraft and corrected it himself? or were there 2 pilots (PF and PNF) besides Mr Dubois? (sorry if it is a really dumb question). If so (if he was the third pilot there) it is AF fault for having two guys who are evidently undertrained and not capable of handling the situation, not Mr Dubois´ fault for not being there. It was his break time and that is precisely what it´s meant to be, him "disconnecting" himself from the flight.


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6047 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 29722 times:

Quoting falkerker (Reply 3):
Just one (probably noob) question. If he figured out what was wrong, and the PF didn´t do what he should´ve (or what Mr Dubois was convinced he should) couldn´t Mr Dubois have seized control of the aircraft and corrected it himself? or were there 2 pilots (PF and PNF) besides Mr Dubois?

How would he seize control if he was not in either of the command seats.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5566 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 29015 times:

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 2):
I believe theoretically all three pilots should have been and were competent enough to pilot the plane.

This.

The crash was caused by a mistake that shouldn't have been made by even a solo-endorsed student pilot. Whatever (or whoever) the captain was doing is largely irrelevant.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5113 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 28876 times:

The right move for the captain is to take his seat back from the guy who wasn't flying. That would have solved the problem here, especially if he had then installed the PF in seat two. The dimwit in the right seat apparently was holding the stick back regardless, but those two moves together would have stopped the stall.

User currently onlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 26221 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 5):
Whatever (or whoever) the captain was doing is largely irrelevant.

Yet, he is the captain and his two pilots were asking for his help. He has the responsibility to be there ASAP and not take "his time", and that means don't engage in unnecessary behavior that would make this difficult. If it's not a rule airlines have, it should be.

I do not wish to criticize him because I have no idea what actually happened in there. For all I know he could have been on the shitter and probably had no idea of the seriousness of the situation. . .



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineplanejamie From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 26098 times:

How to recover from a stall is one of the earliest things you learn when learning to fly. You learn it hours before you go solo and basically point the nose forward, let the speed increase to above stall speed, roll the wings level then level off and set back up again. It's not rocket science, though in a panic situation I can see how a pilot would want to pull up as the nose dips either left/right and you lose altitude fast - it's instinct and my instructor said during my first stall (we actually stall the aircraft then recover it, but in a safe manner with checks beforehand) "you pulled back which everyone does their first time".

It still doesn't excuse an allegedly competent pilot from not being able to recover from a stall unless the A330's fly by wire systems were broken. Aside from that, I was under the impression that the Airbus aircraft were 'stall proof' with computers not allowing you to pitch up any further to reduce the airspeed (and one or two other features).

As for the captain, there was nothing he could do if someone was sat in his seat. Regardless of what he was doing on his break, he did what he could when he got there and if you think that he could have been in a crew rest bunk or something similar, it could have taken him 30 seconds to realise what was going on (if he couldn't see anything) and another 30 seconds to get there in any situation. He told the pilots flying not to pull up and I assume he didn't reach the controls in time.


User currently offlinevaus77w From Australia, joined Aug 2011, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 25726 times:

Quoting planejamie (Reply 8):
I was under the impression that the Airbus aircraft were 'stall proof' with computers not allowing you to pitch up any further to reduce the airspeed (and one or two other features).

Normally yes, but because the pitot tubes had frozen up, the computers weren't getting airspeed data and thus the auto-pilot, auto-throttle and envelope protection all shut down, leaving the pilots in command.


User currently offlinewowpeter From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2006, 151 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 24972 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 5):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 5):
This.

The crash was caused by a mistake that shouldn't have been made by even a solo-endorsed student pilot. Whatever (or whoever) the captain was doing is largely irrelevant.

That's a simplification of the situation... if any solo pilot can easily deal with this then I will ask you to book a A340 simulator (knowing what is going to happen) and try to recover yourself and see what happen... It is easier said than done... with all the alarms and confusion that happen at the heat of the moment... what never been pointed out is that by the time they get into the deep stall with the trim fully up, there is very little elevator control (in fact that is why even if they push the stick forward, the plane didn't pitch down enough)... they are sinking at over 10,000ft per minutes, they have less than 2.5 mins before impact... now just have a think... you need to sort out what happen (need to realize you need to push the stab trim forward to the down position, which is something we NEVER do in normal flight on the Airbus) and try to recover... to me it sound easier than done... I will bet the differ that any solo pilot can easily recover from this...


User currently offlinesciurusmdg From Argentina, joined Apr 2012, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 23647 times:

Quoting planejamie (Reply 8):
under the impression that the Airbus aircraft were 'stall proof'

Short answer, yes they are if they are in 'Normal Law´'. Due to malfunctioning inputs, the fly by wire systems diverted to 'Alternate Law', meaning that they allow the last line of defense, ie. the pilots, the ability to fly outside the normal flight parameters (flight envelope) in order to do whatever necessary to save the plane in an emergency.

This misconception actually highlights the problems onboard, and the failure of training of the AF cre... the second officer did not realize the plane had left its normal settings, and therefore was under the impression that the plane would not fly outside of this envelope... thereby stalling and ultimately crashing.


User currently offlineAirxliban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4506 posts, RR: 53
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 23325 times:

Quoting loalq (Thread starter):
From abcnews.com:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...an-when-flight-447-was-in-trouble/

Odd suggestion being made here. And even if he was (we might never know for sure if this indeed delayed his return to the cockpit), his absence from the flight deck is not enough to justify the situation they got themselves into. His experience might have come in hand, but afaik none of them ever had a clue of what was going on.

This sounds like media sensationalism, once again. So what if Captain Dubois was travelling with an off duty flight attendant? Is the implication that she was with him in the crew rest and that he didn't come to the cockpit sooner for that reason? If she was off duty, she wouldn't have been allowed in the crew rest area anyway, and even if she was there, so what? The two men in the cockpit were fully qualified to fly the plane. That they responded incorrectly to a confusing situation is not something that Dubois could have anticipated.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 6):
The right move for the captain is to take his seat back from the guy who wasn't flying. That would have solved the problem here, especially if he had then installed the PF in seat two. The dimwit in the right seat apparently was holding the stick back regardless, but those two moves together would have stopped the stall.

Have a bit of the respect please. The dimwit that you are referring to is now dead, and was trying his best to recover from a bad situation. He wasn't trying to sabotage the plane. No doubt he made a mistake, but neither he nor the First Officer nor all the automation on the plane could in the final solution save the plane. Spare him the cheap insults.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 5):

The crash was caused by a mistake that shouldn't have been made by even a solo-endorsed student pilot. Whatever (or whoever) the captain was doing is largely irrelevant.

I'm pretty sure both FOs could have recovered from a stall at 2,500 feet in a Cessna 172, but this is a bit different, so I think your statement trivialises what they went through and what their overall level of competence is. Suffice to say that they should have followed the unreliable airspeed procedure.



PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlinestrangr From Australia, joined Apr 2012, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 23164 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 5):
the captain was doing is largely irrelevant.
Quoting loalq (Thread starter):
Odd suggestion being made here.

ahhh media, if they can not get the facts, they make the facts.

How can anyone know or even care about this. the fact is, a flight across an ocean, went missing after it pitot tubes froze over, causing the airspeed indications to be incorrect, which confused the pilots, another mistake and BAM! gone.

must have been a slow news day in the ABC media centre.

[Edited 2012-06-08 21:09:09]

User currently offlinesciurusmdg From Argentina, joined Apr 2012, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 22934 times:

Quoting Airxliban (Reply 12):
Have a bit of the respect please.

Here Here

Fully agree, people make mistakes, we all have. Its not like the poor guys at the front of the plane were doing anything but their best to fly the damn thing to the destination. However, I think that accusing Air France themselves of having poor training in high intensity situations and therefore culpable IS certainly a point to make (Another example of this would be AF358 in Toronto).


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21522 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 22904 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 1):
You can't put someone on a break and then say "but you have to sit bolt upright and wide awake the entire time, just in case something happens." That's not a break and it doesn't satisfy the point of the break, which is to make sure the captain is rested during critical phases of flight.

   Ultimately, the people at the controls need to be able to respond appropriately.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 5):
The crash was caused by a mistake that shouldn't have been made by even a solo-endorsed student pilot.

That's a rather strong accusation to make, and one not backed up by the account of what happened. Put a solo-endorsed student pilot in IMC and fail their instruments, and you'd see some crazy stuff.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 7):
He has the responsibility to be there ASAP and not take "his time", and that means don't engage in unnecessary behavior that would make this difficult.

Did he "take his time"? He took "over a minute", but is that a realistic amount of time to get back to the cockpit after a break? We don't really know.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1072 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 22871 times:

If you guys want to gain some insight into what the AF 447 crew went through read this 1974 Northwest 727 accident report.
It's a near mirror image.



User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1072 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 22723 times:

Try this again...

http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR75-13.pdf


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6133 posts, RR: 30
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 20445 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

So the elephant in the room everyone is ignoring is the implicit suggestion that the Captain was having sex at the time. A new low for ABC for sure.

Really? Are they going forward with this? I suppose they are trying to generate momentum for July the 5th. I though FOX news was the one to avoid.

Such a dumb suggestion. If anybody can have sex in a crew bunk where this PROFESSIONALS try to have a semblance of rest then they must work for Cirque du Soleil, not an airline. Other than that, I cannot imagine a scenario where a 57 year old male, the highest position of the entire crew on board, would risk his career and reputation for a quickie on an A330, unless the rest of the crew were complicit, and that is totally unrealistic. Stereotyping ABC?

[Edited 2012-06-08 23:56:26]


MGGS
User currently offlinemark777300 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 19686 times:

I have to say at this time that the issue lies more with pilot training as well as faulty equipment. The freezing of the pilot tubes caused the information recieved in the cockpit to be incorrect. This without a doubt added much confusion to the crew. Lets remember that the flight took place at night in a storm, well over the Atlantic. Instrument flying was critical, and if the computers were getting false information, this right here contributed most to the crash. The question does have to be made however of Air France's training (and maybe many other airlines) as to how to deal with scenarios like this one where we have a stall warning at cruising alttitude. I believe that it was on another post some weeks back that stated that another AF A332 was involved in a similar situation off of Venezuela last year where the aircraft gained considerable alttitude before the crew corrected it. Add in what happened at Toronto and you have some questions to ask. The media likes to play inspector all the time and add drama to the story, such as "pilot was with a lady crew member". Even if it was true, The other 2 crew members in the cockpit should have been able to fly the airplane regardless of whether the captain was on break or not. What if he becomes ill or passes away while in flight? it has happened before so it shouldn't be an issue here. The only thing I agreed with in the news report was that training should be changed to cope with the increase in automation up in the cockpit and increase awareness in this new type of environment. Focus should be on the responses of flight crew member during a very sudden change after hours of computer controlled flight.

User currently offlinesshd From Spain, joined May 2011, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 19521 times:

This has appeared on Spanish media as well. When reading the newspaper article you can realise how much media love this kind of sensationalism. At the end of the article they explain briefly what caused the accident: "pitot tubes got broken"

User currently offline9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 18267 times:

I'd almost expected to read the Captain would be blamed for the crash over this woman but at least they shied away from going that far. While the article doesn't go that far i can't say i have a lot of respect for them using someone who died together with what really is nothing more than utter speculation.


I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9523 posts, RR: 42
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 18267 times:

Quoting strangr (Reply 13):
ahhh media, if they can not get the facts, they make the facts.

   There were no survivors to tell the tale and nothing that's been published by the BEA gives any clues where the Captain was or what he was doing when he was called.

Nothing to see here...


User currently offlineAAMDanny From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2008, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 18049 times:

I work ULH flights often, and sometimes a pilot gets break when they don't feel that tired, so sometimes they will pop to the galley, get something to eat, if the loads are light enough in J/F they sometimes even put the seat into bed mode and watch a movie, as long as they are 'resting' during there rest period. If there not going to be in the Pilots crew rest area, they always have to let the PIC know where they will be, and the Purser on duty.

He could had well been sat in F watching a movie, he could had been on the toilet, he may have had a stomach bug, he was coming out of a country foreign to him and had an upset stomach, something all crew like myself regularly get when travelling to countries foreign to our own.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13039 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 16053 times:

I am appalled at this sensationalistic story in itself and coming from a USA source. Part of the problem is that is plays into a prejudicial stereotype about the French many Americans (and others) have - recall the recent alleged sexual charges as to Dominique Strauss-Kahn the former international banker and French politician with it's highly sensational coverage in the USA.
The crash of AF447 is one where no one factor can be proven, we can only make reasoned speculations based on the recovered FDR, CVR and other limited physical evidence as well as probabilities from investigations of other similar accidents. Because this was on a modern, technically sophisticated aircraft and shoudn't have happened, some will try to cling to any human action to blame, finding conspiracies where there are none.


25 EagleBoy : All of the above. Having traveled dozen's and dozen's of times with crew who had a partner on the trip with them, I can say that in my experience(15+
26 usdcaguy : Yes, this is obviously a way for the press to come up with one of the few things that will not make people anxious when they read the news these days.
27 DrColenzo : C'mon, The journalist is just trying to drag out the story by adding some sensationalist details dragged up years after the actual events, which are n
28 fsnuffer : Everyone here is saying that recovering from a stall is something every pilot learns from the very beginning. I believe that when every student pilot
29 awthompson : I have said before (my personal opinion) that 9 out of 10 random crews would not have gotten into the stall situation in the first place here. Exactl
30 flyingturtle : These allegations against M. Dubois have also appeared in a free tabloid newspaper. But what puzzled me: They wrote that the BEA has published new res
31 Post contains links and images zkojq : What a distasteful and disgusting piece of reporting - likely by a reporter who knows next to nothing about aviation (her twitter page suggests that h
32 longhauler : This only re-enforces my feeling that the French are my heroes. If this gentleman can be enjoying the company of a companion in the Crew Bunk (no easy
33 airtechy : Perhaps it should be a requirement that the Captain carry a third overriding joystick that could be plugged into a USB port. Once plugged in the seate
34 DrColenzo : Moving away from the Captain Dubois lady rumour. Whilst the final reports into the crash of AF447 has not been released yet, if the crash is down to t
35 Post contains images AustrianZRH : To start, I am no pilot as well (except for a couple of 100 hours on MSFS which of course doesn't count ), but somehow I still cannot understand how
36 Post contains links David L : No stick-shaker on the A330 but there is an aural "Stall... stall.." warning. The PF's inputs were generally nose up but he wasn't pulling on the sti
37 PPVRA : Like I said, I am not accusing anyone. Just saying that it does matter what the captain - or any crew member for that matter - are doing while flying
38 Post contains images mandala499 : Go and read the accident's interim report, go to the FDR plots and look at the stick inputs made by PF. I think you owe the dead "dimwit" an apology.
39 type-rated : People also have to realize that in smaller General Aviation aircraft you can fly the plane by the way it feels, "seat of your pants" if you will. But
40 tdscanuck : He didn't need one. He had a perfectly good, perfectly valid artificial horizon (and a standby artificial horizon) right in front of him. All the inf
41 rfields5421 : Yes, it is a simplification; however - The real statistic is that near three dozen screws experiencing the near identical situation - did survive, di
42 Post contains images lightsaber : I think we can agree. He was in a rest period. Then that first offer did as trained. I will not fault someone for doing as trained instead of doing '
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
AF A320 With 189 Seats? posted Tue Apr 24 2012 08:31:47 by dc9northwest
What Was The Drama With JBU717 Today? posted Sat Oct 17 2009 10:26:34 by RobK
AF Captain Is Reprimanded After Entebbe Hijacking posted Sun Oct 21 2007 12:14:00 by Concentriq
What Is/was The Situation With UAL 936? posted Sat Apr 14 2007 01:27:29 by Cegro27
What Was Delta Thinking With This Airline? posted Mon Mar 20 2006 08:23:31 by N839mh
What Was Going On With UA At IAH Today posted Wed Mar 8 2006 01:58:30 by Aggieflyboi04
First AF Aircraft With The AF-KLM Logo posted Mon Aug 29 2005 04:39:50 by Mindscape
What Was First Airliner With T.V.'S posted Tue Jun 28 2005 03:05:09 by Phxplanes
AF Partnership With GOL? posted Wed May 25 2005 15:20:13 by Hardiwv
How Was Your Experience With PeopleExpress? posted Sun Mar 27 2005 03:16:58 by Garri767