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American 763s With Winglets. Why So Few?  
User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9286 times:

Why is it that AA was the first customer to have winglets installed on their 767s yet they have so few that have actually had them installed? Is it not a priority duento their current state?

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinejustplanesmart From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 723 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9066 times:

I am not sure what is considered "so few", as my records show that 27 of the 58 aircraft have now been retrofitted with winglets. Specifically, fleet numbers 345, 351, 353, 354, 356, 359-362, 364, 365, 370, 372, 373, 377, 380-383, 385-391, and 399. That comprises nearly half the fleet. Admittedly, the pace seems to be a bit slow, but that is probably due to the fact that the aircraft is usually out of service for approximately a month for the work, so American does not want to have too many idle at the same time.


"So many planes; so little time..."
User currently offlineRobt760 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8918 times:

AA is slow at getting this done; didn't they start in 2009? More dragging on: 757-200s getting refitted with new seating. 737-800s getting new seating as well. Next up cabin reconfigurations on the 777-200s to remove F, adjust Y for Main Cabin Extra, add WiFi, and upgrade the AVOD and power ports. That should take a good 5 years at this pace.

Every aircraft type that is staying in the fleet is getting or having something done...who knows how long this will drag on.


User currently offlineN243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1639 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6944 times:

Quoting justplanesmart (Reply 1):
Specifically, fleet numbers 345, 351, 353, 354, 356, 359-362, 364, 365, 370, 372, 373, 377, 380-383, 385-391, and 399.

393 and 394 are now done as well.

Quoting justplanesmart (Reply 1):
Admittedly, the pace seems to be a bit slow, but that is probably due to the fact that the aircraft is usually out of service for approximately a month for the work, so American does not want to have too many idle at the same time.

The planes usually don't quite take a whole month - I think it's usually around 20-25 days. All aircraft receive the winglet mod and the flat panel cockpit display mod during the same visit.



B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5877 times:

Quoting justplanesmart (Reply 1):
my records show that 27 of the 58 aircraft have now been retrofitted with winglets. Specifically, fleet numbers 345, 351, 353, 354, 356, 359-362, 364, 365, 370, 372, 373, 377, 380-383, 385-391, and 399. That comprises nearly half the fleet.
Quoting N243NW (Reply 3):
393 and 394 are now done as well.

So, that makes 29 aircraft completed - exactly half-way through the fleet of 58.



Ryan / HKG
User currently offlineJetfixr757 From Jamaica, joined Jan 2006, 151 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5162 times:

Does bankruptcy and money mean anything? If you do one you don't have the other, winglet mods cost alot of money!!!
Jet


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4566 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5147 times:

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 4):

So, that makes 29 aircraft completed - exactly half-way through the fleet of 58.

So... at this pace, they'll be done around 2015/16.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9661 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4326 times:

Quoting Jetfixr757 (Reply 5):

Its not even really BK. AA is doing a few mods at once and is only doing one line of mods. Its not like they can just do a winglet mod at an overnight station.



yep.
User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3941 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4287 times:
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Quoting Robt760 (Reply 2):
idn't they start in 2009?

I believe they did. In December of 2009, I flew on a 763 from LHR to BRU and it had already the winglets, can't remember the registration. Indeed, at that time most of the 763s at AA had not their winglets installed yet.
I flew on one in January of 2011 from MIA to JFK (I remember how beautiful the sunrise was, upon leaving MIA) and the one I was on (sorry I didn't look at the reg) was still not equipped with winglets, maybe it is now but it was not at the time I flew on it.

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 4):
the fleet of 58.

And none has ever crashed since the first one was delivered back in 1988. None has ever been lost and none has yet been written off or sold second hand to another company.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 6):
So... at this pace, they'll be done around 2015/16.

And by then, the oldest 763 will be already 28. The 200s will probably be gone and the oldest 300s will be getting close to retirement. However, I don't think that the last one will leave the fleet before 2020, if not later, because the youngest ones date from the early 2000s.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlinedivemaster08 From Cayman Islands, joined Jul 2008, 342 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3818 times:

If i recall, they are not rushing them to get fitted as stated, it takes a lot of time.

They are probably waiting for the aircraft to go into overhaul D checks before adding winglets. This way, the airframe was already going to be out of service, and so easier to make the changes also.


On another note. DL and their B757s winglet addition. Are they adding them to all of them? It seems they are taking their time in getting them on those birds! I know they have a lot but during winter period, when we see them here in GCM, they mostly dont have winglets



My dream, is to fly, over the rainbow, so high!
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3297 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3645 times:

They're being done in house as well. Compare how much faster other airlines have done this in comparison with the launch customer, they're apparently in no hurry to save fuel.....

User currently offlineN243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1639 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3634 times:

Quoting divemaster08 (Reply 9):
They are probably waiting for the aircraft to go into overhaul D checks before adding winglets. This way, the airframe was already going to be out of service, and so easier to make the changes also.

Not in this case. As I mentioned, there is a special line set up in TUL for winglets and avionics upgrades. As far as I know, there isn't anything going on during scheduled maintenance visits in AFW.



B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
User currently offlinecaliboy78 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3480 times:

Also keep in mind AA will be retiring some of their 763s so I'm sure the ones that AA isn't keeping won't be getting any winglets....


TAAke pride on what you do and do it well.
User currently offlineboeing767mech From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1030 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3280 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 10):
Compare how much faster other airlines have done this in comparison with the launch customer, they're apparently in no hurry to save fuel.....

Considering you have to unskin the last 20 feet of the wing, it takes about 3 weeks to do the mod for the winglet. So you don't just pull an airplane off the line and slap the winglets on.

David



Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
User currently offlineB738FlyUIA From Kazakhstan, joined Dec 2009, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Quoting boeing767mech (Reply 13):
Considering you have to unskin the last 20 feet of the wing, it takes about 3 weeks to do the mod for the winglet. So you don't just pull an airplane off the line and slap the winglets on.

wow - 3 weeks is a long time!!! So it's about the same for 737 & 757?

As they are done in the house at AA, some send them to Japan. To safe fuel and time couldn't Boeing do them for there customers (if there is no C or D-Check)?


User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1712 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3120 times:

Quoting American 767 (Reply 8):
And none has ever crashed since the first one was delivered back in 1988. None has ever been lost and none has yet been written off or sold second hand to another company.

What's the point you are making here? I don't see any relevance to the discussion here.
This is not something great or extraordinary, the fact that none has been lost or W/O is something I expect from an airline.
Your statement gives me more of a feeling that it is something special that those AA 763's are still flying....



flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12783 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3067 times:
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The 767 with winglets looks pretty slick.   

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley




Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4566 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2876 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 7):
AA is doing a few mods at once and is only doing one line of mods. Its not like they can just do a winglet mod at an overnight station.

Slightly off topic.... but apparently they can do a Gogo WiFi install overnight - why haven't they done that on the rest of the 738s and on the domestic 757 fleete?


User currently offlineSkedGuy From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 137 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2643 times:
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Quoting N62NA (Reply 17):
Slightly off topic.... but apparently they can do a Gogo WiFi install overnight - why haven't they done that on the rest of the 738s and on the domestic 757 fleete?

I don't know about the 757s, but the 738s are coming along. Regardless, I'm getting sick of the slow pace of the install. AA has been pushing its Wi-Fi connectivity in advertisements for several months, yet unlike DL, it's never a sure thing that gogo will be available.

As a loyal AA customer, gogo is a low-hanging fruit service enhancement, and I can't for the life of me understand why it wasn't a priority a long time ago -- even before the company went into Chapter 11. Frankly, it seems like the company has stepped over a dollar to pick up a penny by throttling the rate of install. Said differently, the impact of services like gogo can't always be directly quantified on a pure P&L basis, but it does create customer goodwill on some level, which in turn influences future spending decisions.

Back to the topic, I do give AA credit for its overall winglet program. AA was quick to adopt the benefits of winglets and was much more aggressive about it compared to its peers. Has anyone seen any numbers comparing the total fuel savings across carriers?


User currently offlineTWACaptain From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 29 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2515 times:
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To answer some of the questions posted here:

1) The 767 winglet program is slowly progressing however it is only being done currently during the off peak travel times as AA needs every available aircraft for the peak travel months. There was a suspension of the program for several months due to some technical issues that cropped up however they have since been resolved. Although the actual installation of the winglets is approximately three weeks, AA is using this time to install new avionics in the flight deck (replacing the old CRTs with new LCD screens and upgrading all the computers and navigation computers as well) to make them compatible with the new ATC requirements worldwide which adds a few days to the downtime. All the winglet installations are done in-house.

2) The reason that the GoGo WiFi isn't in the 757s and 767s as yet is that GoGo will be rolling out a new satellite augmented system next year which will allow Transatlantic and Transpacific internet connections. The new system is not compatible with the existing system so instead of installing the system twice AA opted to wait with the installation until the new service is available. The first aircraft that will have it installed is the 777-300 coming late this fall. Also with the 757/767 aircraft being used predominately outside of the US mainland (the only place GoGo is currently available) it would not be good to mislead passengers into thinking they had WiFi connections for the entire flight when in reality it might of be for the first hour or so. The 767-200 aircraft all have WiFi as they are used solely on US domestic routes were GoGo is currently available.

In the meantime the 737 fleet is getting it installed as they rotate through Tulsa on longer maintenance checks (the new aircraft are getting it installed prior to entering service). Believe it or not, the Gogo system is only being used by a very small number of passengers and is not the money earner that people might expect. Still as the competition has it, so everyone is forced to have it. To recoup the installation costs and subsequent downtime on the aircraft unless the aircraft is already scheduled for a check would take a very long time just based on the current amount of users. Hence it is done in combination with other work that the aircraft require from time to time.

As fuel savings of the 767 winglet, I remember reading somewhere that it was around 5-6% of the fuel burn however there are many factors that determine the exact amount. I think it is safe to say it is probably 3-4%, which would make the installation economically viable.



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