ordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 809 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 6 days ago) and read 8915 times:
I love how he ripped those dam taxes like the APD and other PFC's, it is getting out of hand. I think the smaller legacies of eastern Europe like CSA and the like are in serious danger, didn't LOT need a big cash injection from TK.
Tough to say, Europe is on the brink now much the way the global financial system was on the brink 3 years ago, whether they fall off the cliff or recover is anyones guess. My thought is things are going to get a bit worse before they get better,
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 28488 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8644 times:
Survival of the fittest
The European airline scene has too many players, too much capacity, plus there are many carriers that suffer under unrealistic cost base much due to uncompetitive labor burden.
Its will be healthy to see the weak shrink, merge, or perish.
The airline industry is a global market place, and like the blood letting in the US industry, the European airline scene including the majors need to go through the pain to adjust to the modern day macro-economic realities of the industry.
My only fear is that national politics will continue to get in the way of the needed house cleaning at these enterprises.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
LHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1788 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8612 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6): My only fear is that national politics will continue to get in the way of the needed house cleaning at these enterprises
Indeed so! I'm starting to think that the likes of OS, SK, TP, etc. will have to depend on larger group ownership in order to survive. Even OS has troubles, but I do think we'll see more of these carriers get absorbed into the LH, IAG, AF/KL folds.
ju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 3114 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7809 times:
On top of this the European Commission had launched an official investigation into government subsidies given to some airlines (and airports). Apparently the countries in question are France, Germany, Austria and a few others.
Fun times ahead... not.
Gonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 2026 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7620 times:
Quoting bennett123 (Reply 12): Given the more general issues faced by Greece, how about OA?.
OA is a private company since the end of 2009. Maybe they could be in trouble due to the lack of passengers ( the tourists not going to Greece and that ), but at least they don't rely in the ( broken ) state for cash.
I think IB could be in a similar situation if the Spanish crisis doesn't end "soon", a 22 % of unemployment is not a very good sign for the market, and the AZ situation could be bad also if this Euro crisis last for too long..
"European carriers are expected to report combined losses of $1.1 billion for the year, almost double the previous forecast of a $600 million loss, according to IATA. The next months will be critical ."
Ferroviarius From Norway, joined Mar 2007, 295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5131 times:
Quoting sweair (Reply 1): SAS..Even before this crisis they were in the deep red. Many still hope for LH to buy them I guess.
There is one thing, which gives hope for SAS. The Norwegian government lets taxpayers pay an incredibly high price to keep some farmers in the province alive. It's outrageous, the largest part of Oslo, Bergen, Stavanger citizens' tax goes to subsidize what they call "Distrikten". AND when there are elections, the ballots cast by those living a luxury life every day with fresh water and air and no traffic jams count considerably more than those by Oslo, Bergen, Stavanger citizens.
Among the many advantages, which the province is granted, are local airports, which economically are totally unviable. The Norwegian government pays airlines - i.e. chiefly SAS - to provide connections to these airports. If SAS would die, there would be a considerable problem.
This also might be one of the reasons, why the Norwegian government seemingly is un-interested in a high speed rail link between Stockholm and Oslo. While technically feasible without the slightest problems - it actually had existed years ago as "Lynx" and was killed despite economically viable - this would take most SAS customers from OSL-ARN, and it is them who pay for things like Harstad Narvik, Kirkenes, and I do not know what air fields out in the "Distrikt".
This said and completely independent of this, I am frequently using SAS on my own and am very satisfied with them!
SASDC8 From Norway, joined Mar 2006, 807 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4896 times:
Quoting sweair (Reply 1): SAS..Even before this crisis they were in the deep red. Many still hope for LH to buy them I guess
Sorry but I don't see your point here? SK is in the red yes, but they are only to a smaller degree hit by the euro-zone crisis. Chiefly because they fly people from countries (Norway, Sweden and Denmark) that are not directly involved in the crisis.
I would be more worried about carriers located in the parts of Europe that is really affected by the crisis.
Tobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 737 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3930 times:
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 15):
Quoting LJ (Reply 4):
LOT is/was privatised. TK won't be one of the investors (they're not interested anymore).
IAG was mentioned earlier as being interested. This isn't good for LH/*A. With the TK deal in ashes, this will force LH into making an offer or possibly face losing LOT to another alliance.
Why would troubled IAG invest in an airline TK (which is quite well performing) is not interested in? And does LH really care about the fate of LOT, rather than getting their own act together? I mean, LOT isn't that important for Star Alliance anyway, are they?
PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
leftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 749 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3882 times:
Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 21): Why would troubled IAG invest in an airline TK (which is quite well performing) is not interested in? And does LH really care about the fate of LOT, rather than getting their own act together? I mean, LOT isn't that important for Star Alliance anyway, are they?
TK gave up on LO because the lawyers tried hard (according to TK CEO) to find a loophole in EU law that allows TK majority ownership of LO, but they couldn't. Without majority control, such an investment a la B&H Airlines isn't attractive. IAG doesn't face the same restrictions since it is an EU company.
EricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1906 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3862 times:
For as much criticism as U.S. based airlines receive from a service perspective, airlines in Europe will start to look more and more like their U.S. counterparts. Frills such as food service on short duration flights, free alcohol, etc. need to be eliminated in an effort to save costs and stay financially competitive.
There is a lot of fat that needs to be cut out of these European carriers and the ones who survive are those who address these costs sooner rather than later.
sweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1836 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3850 times:
Sorry but I just think the bailout 2008 was enough, SAS should fix its problems or go under. Taxpayers should not have to bail them out every now and then. Make it work or go bust, this is not Soviet Union.
: Indeed, a political question. But as long as the Norwegian Government - and its electorate - insist on having cheap flights to small airports in the
: My opinion is that IAG will not be absorbing any other airlines for the next few years. BA needs to successfully absorb BD first. And the prospects f
: SAS problem is they missed the part when they lost the monopoly on air travel. And still the Danish unions mess around thinking its 1982.. I don't thi
: You are turning this post into a political post , that, we, as aviation fan, have no interest at all. I am astonished and ashamed that you are holdin
: I think his comments are valid, a number of airlines in Europe will need to close. Many have unsustainable practices from when they were government o
: When we look at airlines that have enough money and possibility to buy competitors in Europe the list is very small indeed. capital injections from mi
: Tobias, I'm under an impression that TK is one of those airlines that talk a lot but never get past that, plus they sort of compete with LH. And TK i
: Very misleading. The American economy grew at a faster rate in the first quarter of 2012 than any of the countries identified excepting only Norway (
: Even when privatized i don't think any of the troubled ones will be able to make a profit. I honestly think that airlines need to be a little careful
: Olympic is owned by the Marfin Investment Group so I guess that they are going to be ok (at least for now). Yes but Aegean is owned by a group of Gre
: I would also like to add that this should be a clear sign of how much the EU needs to be reformed. You cannot have an institution such as the European
: I am on the side of respect for which Ferrovarius has none and I quote : It's culturless wilderness anyway, whether or not some thousands are living
: Libertarianism promotes the removal of state from the private sector. If the private sector cannot be self-sustaining then close it down. If these re
: I do agree with your point but I would argue that pride is not a problem in Ireland. The problem of Irish debt is that the Irish political class deci
: Those views are fine, but calling the areas outside of the major cities a "cultureless wilderness" is what I think was disrespectful. It's an implica
: I read his replies once again, just in case I missed something, but I still believe that his statements are directed towards communities which are no
: Its horrible waste of tax money to have flights in rural areas. Most sane people would agree. If you want to live in a rural area, you have to live wi
: it is true IB is shrinking a little due to poor local economy but BA premium traffic continues to grow strongly and the forward outlook more optimist
: Europe is a mess at the moment and god knows where it's all going to end. Intra European cross border traffic is starting to collapse. IATA are foreca