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Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787  
User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 43240 times:

Some Harsh words from the Irish...


Qantas CEO Alan Joyce says he is "very pissed off" at Boeing over the delays to the 787 Dreamliner, which would have seen the airline enjoying significantly lower costs in fuel and maintenance compared to the Red Roo's current aging fleet.


Speaking with The Australian, Joyce expressed a frank degree of disatisfaction on the much-delayed Dreamliner and its impact on the airline's bottom line – especially for Qantas International, which last week flagged a loss of $450 million.


http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-ceo-v...-boeing-over-787-dreamliner-delays


CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
190 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 43173 times:

This is a risk you run when you sign up for a paper airplane (which the 787 was when QF said "we'll take a few"). They will be compensated according to the terms of their contract with Boeing for the delayed deliveries.


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31414 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 43113 times:
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Well he was the one who decided to defer deliveries, allowing other carriers to move forward their own deliveries, so while he has a perfect right to be upset about the original delays, he could be close to having them now if he'd had chosen to.

User currently onlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8370 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 43097 times:

Can't blame Boeing for your airline sucking. Would the 787s have helped and is Boeing at fault for their delay? Maybe and yes. Does that have anything to do with Qantas posting a massive loss? Uh, nope.


This Website Censors Me
User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 43025 times:
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Yawn! Join the queue Alan, a lot of other carriers ordered earlier and have waited longer than QF.


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineTruemanqld From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 1596 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 42994 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
Can't blame Boeing for your airline sucking.

Wow, QF sucks does it? An airline that has been consistently profitable, never entered bankruptcy and never had an aircraft hull loss? Interesting.. also has much higher standards than any American airline.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
Does that have anything to do with Qantas posting a massive loss? Uh, nope.

Wrong, jesus, do some research! They haven't posted a loss for many, many years, and won't post a loss this year. QF International will, but QF Domestic and JQ mega profits will counter it, and still leave QF in the black.

QF has been particularly unlucky, first the 787 and then the A380, but QF problems lay elsewhere as well, but certainly on time deliveries would have helped.


User currently offlineDan23 From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 42850 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):

Yes that u-turn has probably cost QF just as much as the original delay. Why they ever pushed back delivery of their early 787's only to ask/wish for them back shortly after is an intriguing question.


User currently offlinepoLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 42736 times:

Quoting Truemanqld (Reply 5):
Wow, QF sucks does it? An airline that has been consistently profitable, never entered bankruptcy and never had an aircraft hull loss? Interesting.. also has much higher standards than any American airline.

Never had a hull loss with a jet...


I never understood QF's image here. You get completely contradicting reports on how good the service is (or the direction you are going) or what the (future) financial position of the airline depending on who you ask here. You would think many Australians would be proud of QF, yet there are a ton who think they do nothing right despite doing respectable.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20336 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 42624 times:

One wonders: is there room for a third WB manufacturer in the world? It seems that one issue is that neither A nor B really have competition except from each-other in the NB segment. The 787 has no real competitor. The A350 might face competition from the 777X series, but not for a while. The A380 has no real competitor.

Maybe the airlines need to goad an aerospace company into competing.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7654 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 42595 times:

Quoting Truemanqld (Reply 5):
Interesting.. also has much higher standards than any American airline.

I assume this is related to the fact that Boeing is an American company or an American posters comment?

Quoting Dan23 (Reply 6):
Yes that u-turn has probably cost QF just as much as the original delay

However, that was their decision, Qantas fans could certainely be pi** at them for the deferal.

Ever get the feeling that folks who are p*** at OEM's for production delays seem to believe that they do so just to pi** off their customers?


User currently offlineTruemanqld From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 1596 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 42599 times:

Quoting poLot (Reply 7):
Never had a hull loss with a jet...

True, my mistake, but still better than any other major, established airline. A real testament to QF and Australian aviation.

Quoting poLot (Reply 7):
You get completely contradicting reports on how good the service is (or the direction you are going)

I think QF service is usually very good, but on the odd occasion, as on all airlines, when it is bad, it is really bad. Obviously something they need to work on, but there domestic competition isn't exactly great either, when it comes to service that is.

Quoting poLot (Reply 7):
(future) financial position of the airline depending on who you ask here

I think most agree that QF is in trouble, but some here will gladly predict the death based on very little actual facts. The next 2-3 years will really test Alan Joyce and QF to see how there International Ops are going to survive. Domestically, and JQ wise, they are doing fantastic (though some believe they are rorting the figures... but based on absolutely no facts) and will continue to do well, DJ is expanding domestically but won't reach QF any time soon.

Quoting poLot (Reply 7):
You would think many Australians would be proud of QF, yet there are a ton who think they do nothing right despite doing respectable.

Most Australians do feel a sense of patriotism towards the national airline, there is nothing better than sitting half way around the world and seeing the flying Kangaroo. However, QF is no longer a government controlled airline, and therefore cannot please everyone, so this does put some Australians offside. However, QF is still very well liked, and the percentage in the general population that do like QF is much higher than it is on A.net.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 42597 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
Can't blame Boeing for your airline sucking. Would the 787s have helped and is Boeing at fault for their delay? Maybe and yes. Does that have anything to do with Qantas posting a massive loss? Uh, nope.

   - even with TruemanQLD's comments. They did post a massive loss in international.

The 787s would have helped QF, but they would have also helped the competition.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Well he was the one who decided to defer deliveries

That was of the A380s though wasn't it? I think he figures that A380s are replacing 744s and 787s replacing A330s and 767s. It's a little simplistic, because there is carry over, if you know what I mean.

He cancelled some of the 787s a few years back. It's quite odd that he's now blaming the lack of these aircraft.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 3020 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 42552 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Well he was the one who decided to defer deliveries

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. If he was the one who initiated that change, then he did it very quickly -- he became CEO late November 2008, with the deferment announcement within 8-10 weeks, which included Christmas/New Year breaks.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
Does that have anything to do with Qantas posting a massive loss? Uh, nope.

Absolutely it has. A 20% increase in fuel costs this year would have been offset by the 787's 20% lower fuel consumption. It would appear that QF is either just breaking even or just below breaking even on most of their international routes, so a cost base just a few % lower makes all the difference.

Quoting Truemanqld (Reply 5):
never had an aircraft hull loss?

In the jet age... In any case, QF blows most airlines out of the water. Their product is up there with SQ etc when executed properly by the staff.

Quoting Truemanqld (Reply 5):
QF International will

And QF International has been performing poorly for years. Soaring fuel costs have reversed a small profit to become a (relatively) small loss.

Quoting Truemanqld (Reply 5):
QF has been particularly unlucky, first the 787 and then the A380, but QF problems lay elsewhere as well, but certainly on time deliveries would have helped.

  


User currently offlineqf340500 From Singapore, joined Oct 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 42500 times:

Hey, N766UA, isn't the whole point of buying (and developing) new, more efficient planes to save costs and increase profits for airliners? So i think Mr. Joyce has a right to say that his airline would be in a better shape if the initial delays with the 787 and would have not happened... Thats why you buy new planes, to be more profitable, or am i wrong here?

I can only agree with Truemanqld and poLot....

i would always prefer to fly QF, rather than SQ and even more than AA or UA... sorry, just my opinion.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4865 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 42463 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Thread starter):

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce says he is "very pissed off" at Boeing over the delays to the 787 Dreamliner, which would have seen the airline enjoying significantly lower costs in fuel and maintenance compared to the Red Roo's current aging fleet.


Speaking with The Australian, Joyce expressed a frank degree of disatisfaction on the much-delayed Dreamliner and its impact on the airline's bottom line – especially for Qantas International, which last week flagged a loss of $450 million.

Well should have ordered the 777 way back when, but thats another issue.

So far as this thread is concerned, AJ says this.... is this the same AJ that plans to give the first 15 787s to Jetstar??? How is giving the first 15 787s to Jetstar (who have a fairly new fleet of A330s already BTW) going to help QF/"Red Roo" to lower its costs and reduce maintenance??

Basically its just AJ starting to feel the heat so looking for someone to blame. Yes Boeing should have delivered the 787 earlier. That is a risk airlines take with a new type. QF didn't even have to buy 777 they could have leased them until such time as Boeing delivers on the 787. By that time they would have seen how good they were and ordered more to fill the gap between the 787 and the A380 (as SQ/EK/etc etc) have done.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlinepoLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 42424 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. If he was the one who initiated that change, then he did it very quickly -- he became CEO late November 2008, with the deferment announcement within 8-10 weeks, which included Christmas/New Year breaks.

He may not have initiated the change, but 8-10 weeks is plenty of time to defer any possible change on the status of the order until he was sure that it was necessary.


User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 42424 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
Absolutely it has. A 20% increase in fuel costs this year would have been offset by the 787's 20% lower fuel consumption. It would appear that QF is either just breaking even or just below breaking even on most of their international routes, so a cost base just a few % lower makes all the difference.

If every aircraft in their fleet was a 787 thats true, but otherwise a few frames would not have had a significant impact on the bottom line. AI and QF are just looking for scapegoats. Every airline in the world deals with the increase in gas prices and just about all of them don't have 787s.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 42399 times:

He certainly has a right to be pissed at a company that chronically mismanaged a high profile program, and a right to contractual compensation--I think everyone that ordered the 787 feels the same.

Quoting par13del (Reply 9):
Ever get the feeling that folks who are p*** at OEM's for production delays seem to believe that they do so just to pi** off their customers?

Boeing blew the program to the point it trained everyone--carriers, analysts, press, everyone--to have a pavlovian response of disbelief to any official Boeing PR.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31414 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 42255 times:
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Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. If he was the one who initiated that change, then he did it very quickly -- he became CEO late November 2008, with the deferment announcement within 8-10 weeks, which included Christmas/New Year breaks.

QF Group was literally changing it's mind on a weekly basis back in early 2011, first saying they would take them, then saying no, then saying yes - but for JQ, then saying no.

Ben Sandilands posted recently that he's heard JQ and QF have 787s starting assembly.   

NH today stated they're seeing over a 20% reduction in fuel burn on NRT-FRA with their sub-par 787-8s compared to their 767-300ERs, so perhaps that triggered Mr. Joyce's comments.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21582 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 41619 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Well he was the one who decided to defer deliveries, allowing other carriers to move forward their own deliveries, so while he has a perfect right to be upset about the original delays, he could be close to having them now if he'd had chosen to.

Yep, when you F-up, blame the supplier!

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. If he was the one who initiated that change, then he did it very quickly -- he became CEO late November 2008, with the deferment announcement within 8-10 weeks, which included Christmas/New Year breaks.

He would be a worthless CEO if he didn't feel he had the right to make a course change even in week 1. Look what happened when QR bought into Cargolux. They asserted themselves immediately.

And once again, QF should have ordered 777s 15 years ago. Not having them left them with only one option for long-haul: Jumbo (now superJumbo as well). That's not Joyce's fault, but it is QF's fault.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineodwyerpw From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 895 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 41510 times:

Eeveryone's 787s are late except the ones in service with NH and a handful of others. Therefore, most competitors are at the same economic disadvantage. It's not like ALL of ALan Joyce's competitors have been flying around in airplanes enjoying a 20% reduced fuel burn this year, leaving him the only one sucking wind with old iron.

It has been really difficult for each of the airlines. All of them went to their respective boards to receive the go ahead to purchase newer frames based on cost reductions they all hoped to be enjoying for the last 2+ years now. But at this point the pain is being felt fairly evenly (perhaps, with the exception of those who were willing to take the subpar early frames) by most airliners.

We are going to continue to hear allot of outrage, posturing, etc, as all of the airlines want greater compensation to compensate operational losses due to higher fuel costs (consumption and price).



Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
User currently offlinePHXA340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 41434 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
NH today stated they're seeing over a 20% reduction in fuel burn on NRT-FRA with their sub-par 787-8s compared to their 767-300ERs, so perhaps that triggered Mr. Joyce's comments.

Stitch you beat me to it .... From MarketWatch :

"As the launch customer of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, ANA took delivery of the first of its 55 B787s on order in last September, and is now operating seven of the aircraft on domestic flights and one on an international route between Tokyo Haneda and Frankfurt. Mr. Ito said the 787 twinjets, which carry around 220 to 250 passengers, help the airline save around 21% of fuel consumption on each flight"

I am really excited to see what the later build birds can do with the additional PiPs. As for QF ... I would only think it is fair to point out that QF has bet its future on 2 aircraft that have struggled with their entry and obviously its hurting.

Did Boeing mess up - yup.
Did Airbus mess up - yup.
Did QF mess up - yup.

Will QF be just fine - probably.


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6456 posts, RR: 38
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 41356 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 14):
So far as this thread is concerned, AJ says this.... is this the same AJ that plans to give the first 15 787s to Jetstar??? How is giving the first 15 787s to Jetstar (who have a fairly new fleet of A330s already BTW) going to help QF/"Red Roo" to lower its costs and reduce maintenance??

So that the A330s can go back into QF's fleet and replaced 744s  

It just sounds like a big circle.. AJ wants someone to blame other than himself for acts he is responsible for and what better way to do that than to blame the manufacturer. At least the unions won't get up in arms about that one!

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 19):

Yep, when you F-up, blame the supplier!

   The easiest way to go about it!



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5011 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 41263 times:

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 20):

What puzzled me was the fact QF is crying wolf due to the B787 delays and on the other hand you had AI demanding compensation and refusing delivery of the aircraft which apparently will be the savor of the flying kangaroo...

I've said it once before and it's been said many times before, QF could've benefited by ordering the B77L & B77W as opposed to placing all their eggs in the one basket... This case it was the A380 & B787 basket...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineha763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3671 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 41137 times:
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Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. If he was the one who initiated that change, then he did it very quickly -- he became CEO late November 2008, with the deferment announcement within 8-10 weeks, which included Christmas/New Year breaks.

I wouldn't be surprised if Alan Joyce made or pushed for a decision on the deferral of their early 787s. The industry was facing pressure from rising fuel cost, the global financial crisis, and a downturn in travel. Qantas needed to save money and they chose to defer the 787 deliveries. Also, Alan Joyce would have had intimate knowledge of what was going on with the 787 order prior to becoming CEO at Qantas. He was the CEO at Jetstar, who was supposed to have received the first 15 deliveries of the Qantas order.


25 F9animal : QF has every right to be pissed at Boeing. Boeing did not deliver as said. Boeing royally made a mess of the 787. Boeing should compensate all airline
26 lightsaber : Wow. Something is off in my model of the 787 if that is indeed the case. These are triple spool engines we are discussing. A triple spool has a nice
27 Post contains links mariner : I think Qantas should have ordered the original A350 back then. A main reason they didn't was because Boeing "found"earlier delivery slots for the 78
28 F9animal : Qantas has every right to blame Boeing for the bottom line loss. Had Boeing delivered on time, the 787 could have really impacted Qantas and the fina
29 Hamlet69 : "That didn't work out so well." I see. So what you're saying is that it is your belief that instead of the 787, QF should have ordered an aircraft th
30 wedgetail737 : It almost sounds like this thread is slowly turning into an A vs. B contest. Everyone understands that Boeing hasn't been very good at meeting their c
31 Post contains links mariner : If Qantas had ordered the aircraft it might not have been cancelled. The original A350 already had 200 orders - the Qantas order would have boosted t
32 qf002 : QF would have had their 789's in 2009 if Boeing hadn't screwed up so badly. They would have close to all 35 by now, which could have replaced the A33
33 fiscal : A bit harsh. The delivery of the 787 is all about saving costs, nothing else. The passengers will still have the same experience as they get now. The
34 travelhound : I think a more accrate desciption of events would be QF decided to cancel / delay 787's and buy / lease additional A330's to fill the void associated
35 ikramerica : It's hardly hindsight when we have been saying this for many, many years. It's called being right at the time and being proven so as time has passed.
36 Post contains images qf340500 : its still hindsight, and for that it is not really helping
37 Post contains images laca773 : Exactly! I'm sure Boeing would have given a nice deal on 77W/77Ls because of this mess, but it seems like QF didn't ask or Boeing didn't offer them.
38 davs5032 : True, but as someone above also said, many of their competitors are similarly affected by delays for 787's that are on order to them as well. Hedging
39 zeke : I cannot believe how bias this post is. Fact is QF has been let down by both OEMs, but more so by Boeing due to the shear number of frames that have
40 gemuser : In your opinion! In my opinion the B772 was never satisfactory for QF needs and it was not worth the cost of introducing a new fleet type. The design
41 na : I second gemuser. This "they should have bought 777s" talk is rubbish. When QF ordered 787s they were doing well, 772s would have seemed like an anach
42 NZ107 : Of course he can't be blamed for fuel price rises. I never said I blamed him for fuel prices. But in saying that, he was around in the industry when
43 vaus77w : I agree that the 787-8's should go to QF domestic to replace 763s. I know the A330's are good planes, but hasn't it already been said they aren't eff
44 goosebayguy : If every QF competitor were already flying 787's then he might begin to have a point. However they are not and they have an equal cost base to QF in m
45 zeke : They may continue to keep the 787 with the Jetstar group, and move to the A350 or 777 successor, I think it is 3-5 years before the need o make that
46 IndianicWorld : QF has walked into a perfect storm. Boeing has seriously let it down with the delays, as competitors have stolen the march into its core markets on th
47 sweair : The 77W would have been perfect to replace the 744s with. Is it the GE engines that is the problem? They could have leased some for all these years B
48 Flyingsottsman : I think AJ is starting to feel the heat in the kitchen now, it didnt seem to worry him to much at first but he must be very quietly muttering to himse
49 fiscal : It is an interesting comment you make, but just what can Qantas do to provide a better answer than the ME airlines. How can they offer more, without
50 thegeek : Can someone provide a link? I don't remember this, googling it didn't find anything (other than it being talked about in 2009 - no mention of it actu
51 CXB77L : Yes there was - the 777-200ER would've allowed them to open thin long haul routes. Having a long haul fleet that consists entirely of 744s is a littl
52 garpd : What's worse in the professional world:- Delaying an aircraft countless times or tactlessly using harsh language in public about the delays? Neither d
53 nasula : Hmm. I believe Finnair can state the same if we talk about jets. No lost jets. They lost two DC3s (one weather related, the other weather + drunk pil
54 tom355uk : I'm glad somebody else got in on this before I did. Whenever a thread starts about QF 'Losing money' et al, it is always because they 'didn't order t
55 sweair : Where would QF have used the 77L? Super niched LHR-PER? The 77W could probably make all current 744 routes with no diversions. That will be their bigg
56 par13del : I thought people were saying that QF deferring and cancelling deliveries added to the current problem, QF is not in the a/c making business, so unles
57 na : 744s are retired as planned. And to order 77Ws now would mean you have fuel guzzlers in 10 years. What the 744 is now the 77W will be in the 2020s. W
58 Post contains images EPA001 : So true, so true. But A-net wisdom states that every airline ordering the B777 is immediately profitable. Not ordering the B777 means you are bound t
59 sweair : But the 77ER will be replaced in less than 10 years time by a non gas guzzler. They could have timed the leasing accordingly? Or why not order some o
60 Post contains images na : The Boeing 777 marketing team has taken over the forum
61 Post contains images EPA001 : It sometimes really feels like that here. . Though luckily there are still many posters out here who have not lost sight on reality. . On-topic: QF h
62 Post contains links mariner : It's in post #31 but here's the link about the 15 x 787 deferrals again: http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...ntas-defers-cancels-boeing-7.html/ "Q
63 sweair : Did you miss my A350-1000 line? But you must agree, the 77W would have saved a lot by replacing the 744 in the last 10 years? It seems QF is not orde
64 CXB77L : I didn't say they should order them now. Using 744ERs that they've already paid for would probably be cheaper than introducing the 77W at this late s
65 aerokiwi : I agree. Actions versus mouthing off suggest a confused strategy. Agreed. Their pathological avoidance of the 777 has got to be one of the most inter
66 thegeek : Oh sorry, and thanks, Sounds like it applies to the first of the 787-9s.[Edited 2012-06-13 04:02:08]
67 Flyingsottsman : LOL Love the way you put that very clever.
68 sweair : Replacing a 744 with a A380 only makes sense if you grow capacity, if you keep the old capacity or lower it the 77W is perfect, so will the 777-X and
69 Post contains images par13del : So the fact that Boeing is late with the 787 is the silver bullet for QF problems so they are pissed? As you mention, folks have been saying that QF
70 na : Pathological preaching for 777s isnt good either. Why did you feel you had to? I never disputed it. I said, QF opted for A380s to replace the 744s. A
71 Post contains images sweair : Off topic, Imagine if Boeing would miss delivering Qatars first 787 for the air show in July, this "p*ssed off" comment will feel like a cool summer b
72 Post contains links Cerecl : http://gmail.airliners.net/aviation-...general_aviation/read.main/2496060 Unfortunately the original source is no longer available. I am not a QF supp
73 Post contains links mariner : It's been a while and most of the articles about it are archived now, but - happily - some quotes from the articles exist in the a.net archives. This
74 aviasian : Has Qatar Airways bought a stake in Qantas? How is it Alan Joyce's tone reminds me of Qatar Airways and Cargolux? I do recall that Qantas deferred del
75 sweair : Maybe the 77L replacement can make the LHR-PER a high end one hop to Aussie route possible? QF would need something to differentiate themselves from t
76 Post contains images tom355uk : With the astoundingly easy benefit of hindsight, maybe. Not guaranteed. Let's face it, if you (hypothetically ) cant fill a mostly amortised 744 then
77 Post contains images scbriml : Maybe because the 77W only entered service eight years ago? Indeed. But some don't seem to be able to accept that justified criticism.
78 sunrisevalley : According to the IATA/Platts fuel monitor jet fuel pices are down 5.9% year over year. I would suggest that any airline who is claiming their fuel co
79 Revelation : Yes, later both he and Leahy said the tipping point was the QF loss, which happened shortly after the Air Canada loss. Note AC was in the same time f
80 jfk777 : Boeing made the 777 easy for 744 pilots to transfer to. A 600,000 pound 777-20ER with Rolls engines flying from SYD to SFO or FRA would have been muc
81 B777LRF : Interesting to read all these comments about QF not ordering the 77E or 77W, 77W in particular. It's interesting because of the contrast it provides t
82 sunrisevalley : Zeke, do you have any sense of what the performance contractual obligations are ? There have been at least two increases in MTOW , presumably to matc
83 Post contains images Truemanqld : QF know all about getting compensation, just look at the A380 delays, if anything, AI learnt off them Who are 75% government owned and were losing $1
84 gemuser : You think so? Well you are entitled to you opinion, but I sincerely doubt it when you factor in the total cost of introducing the B772. Gemuser
85 Post contains images tom355uk : Only from a level playing field acquisition wise. How many hundreds of thousands (or even millions?) of dollars per month are you ahead with a 744 th
86 jfk777 : This statement is true if you assume the 777 came much later then the 744 but if QF has purchased 777-200ER in say 1998 then the 744 and 777 would ha
87 tom355uk : In 1998, if QF thought that the 77E was the right aircraft for them then they would have ordered six of them, instead of the 744ER's that they actual
88 sweair : Air NZ seem to be pleased with the 77W? Why didnt they order the A380?
89 tom355uk : The 77W is an ideal replacment for NZ's first 744's delivered to it's fleet, which were ideally approaching retirement just when 77W slots were avail
90 SATexan : I had said this in a thread related to Air India: I work on delivering IT/Telecom solutions and contractually these kinds of delays are NEVER accepte
91 RyanairGuru : I'm sorry for the general rant, but reading through this thread I cannot help but shake my head in wonder at the level of misinformation and general g
92 Post contains links Revelation : Boeing's responsibility is well spelled out in contracts, and QF's had one bite of the compensation apple already. Keep in mind QF could be getting 7
93 PHXA340 : I would argue that the A380 has harmed them equally. The uncontained engine failure happend to an in service aircraft. The 787 isn't in service so at
94 Post contains images par13del : I did not say that his comments were met with derision, but those by the Gulf carrier smanagement, it was meant to highlight a double standard based
95 EPA001 : True, but there it was Rolls-Royce who had to pay (if any) for compensations, not Airbus. Zeke is imho pointing out that the number of B787 airplanes
96 Stitch : On 26 November 2010, the Sydney Morning Herald reported that QF had received to date $297 million in compensation for delays relating to 787 deliveri
97 jfk777 : The 744ER and the A380's were all ordered by Qantas at the same time. In the press at the time QF managers were unhappy with Boeing for its One too m
98 Post contains images tom355uk : You are correct that they were both ordered at the same time; however the point I'm trying to make is that if QF truly believed that the 777 was the w
99 n729pa : QF are not the only airline having a tough time, it doesn't help I think that QF and others have to fight off the Middle Eastern carriers, there was
100 Atlflyer : I agree. Most Australians have nothing good to say about Qantas. I have had great flights with them and think they are great yet my Australian friend
101 par13del : These a/c are in different categories, based on their designed missions and the world's current environment, the 787 will alwaye be ordered in greate
102 mariner : Hindsight is always perfect vision, but I believed - and said - at the time that Airbus should have gone ahead with the A350 (1) and that Qantas shou
103 displane : If I'm not mistaken, first it was AI and now QF. So who's the next airline/CEO to complain? A bit of a sarcastic question but really, would anyone be
104 Zkpilot : The A330 doesn't have the range for a lot (most) of QFs 744 flying. The 77E/L/W does. Where to start? SYD-DFW, SYD-SFO, SYD-YVR, SYD-DXB, AKL-LAX. SY
105 JoeCanuck : I think it's fine for AJ to be p!ssed at Boeing but it's a bit late in the day, isn't it? It has been quite some time since any more delays have happe
106 NZ107 : It was a joke! I'm aware of that and their shortcomings with fleet selection.
107 jfk777 : Why is Jetstar getting the first 15 787-8 when their flights are shorter then QF and can be flown by A330's ? QF needs the range of teh 787's much mor
108 Zkpilot : Oh and another thing about 777s. They would free up at least 3x A330 to go do things like PEK and ICN
109 par13del : Off topic but QF international ops are rumoured to be taking a beating so transferring some flights to Jetstar who have lower cost is an economic dec
110 Truemanqld : While I believe that to be true on A.net, the general feelings of Australians towards QF is not nearly as bad as it is on here. Newspolls conducted a
111 ikramerica : It was launched earlier than that. And during design and flight testing, the specs changed dramatically, making it a far better 744 replacement than
112 aerokiwi : Wait a tick. QF is moaning about the lack of delivery of its ordered 250-280 seaters - a legitimate moan given Boeing's muckup with the 787. But it's
113 Post contains images par13del : You really expect an employee to go in public talking about his employer the way he talked about Boeing? Say it ain't so.... I think these are the gu
114 wingman : To add to the last post, it seems a bit hypocritical for the Airbus fan club to say that the 777 would've done nothing to help QF back then but that t
115 Post contains images Cerecl : Sorry I cannot agree. There is no double standard as what AJ said and what a certain CEO of a major ME airline said are completely different. AJ did
116 Stitch : Wasn't the original plan to send them to JQ first so they could use them to open new services to the EU with JQ's A330s being moved to QF to replace
117 sydscott : That's still the plan although just not with the EU part. JQ has most recently said that 787's could be used either through SIN or from Australia to
118 Post contains images TheCol : Since when is it a good idea to bank on assets you don't have? That's the biggest mistake a business can make in this day and age. QF knew what they w
119 wjcandee : A very wise college classmate once said that most people operate as follows: "When it's the other guy's fault, hang your head because you screwed up b
120 Stitch : One negotiating advantage AI has that QF doesn't is AI has some half-dozen completed or in-assembly 787s between PAE and CHS...
121 mariner : Where does he say that? I read that not having the aircraft is surely costing them money. I did not read that he blames the airline's losses on not h
122 Post contains images PHXA340 : I would only be upset because I don't have an aircraft that is going to be stellar. If a lame duck airplane that was going to be a poor performer was
123 Post contains links NZ107 : The Sydney Morning Herald has just released an article about this whole issue: http://www.smh.com.au/business/qanta...n-down-the-roo-20120614-20bvt.ht
124 rheinwaldner : Absolutely true. Ontopic there is not a single blame to be put on QF. These replies about weak QF figures and the 777 are just a deceiving maneouvre
125 sydscott : Further, apparently the ANA Boeing 787's have proved to be more than 20% more efficient than 767's on long haul routes and these are the overweight,
126 Truemanqld : DL also gets this convenient advantage of being able to run itself into the ground through bad management (and a range of other things) and then turn
127 cmf : Since when is it possible to run a company and not bank on assets you do not have? You develop products hoping you can sell them. Or you sell product
128 par13del : Oh, ok you are talking about the A350, my bad, I was being general, harsh comments have been thrown about the 747-8, 777 additional development, 787-
129 babybus : You make the 787 sound like a liability. I would also say we need companies to pay staff more not less, that is why our industries in the west are gr
130 PHXA340 : Huh ? Our companies in the West are grinding to a halt because labor costs are too high ... to be competitive with lower cost airlines, some legacy c
131 Post contains images sweair : That is not only air lines sadly, most of us costs too much on a global scale. I see high tech well paid jobs leave Sweden every week now. Troubling
132 Revelation : And as earlier mentioned, Air Canada put in their first 777 order in the mid 2000s in the same time frame as they wound down their 747 and A340 fleet
133 sydscott : I would say Company's need to pay staff more only if they've earned it. For an airline, the 787 is an investment that needs to generate a commercial
134 fiscal : It seems you are not aware of the facts. QF is turning a profit, but it could have been better had the 787 been available, and also, if some elements
135 Post contains links zeke : I do not believe the report in the Australian. Have a look at this analysis http://www.lissys.demon.co.uk/boeing787-2011.html they have the 767 actua
136 thegeek : 8 hours? I'd expect that the 77L would be taking off at MZFW for sectors that short. AKL-LAX I'd be surprised if it needed a 77L - 77E would be fine.
137 Post contains images sydscott : I didn't read the report in the Australian. (I don't read Murdoch press ) I got that from the Boeing 787 blog where apparently ANA has stated it. But
138 NZ107 : It's not about needing a 77L.. It's about efficiency and possible load of the 77L over the 77E which makes the 77L more appealing for sectors over 8
139 ZKOJH : so interesting how this is such a ''HOT'' topic with now up to 32,144 views but comments are stalling around 140 ish lol, just goes to show what peopl
140 thegeek : What's the difference in ZFW over the LAX-AKL sector between the 77E and 77L? Affecting belly cargo SYD-SFO, yes.
141 NZ107 : To put it into perspective, I think there are days when the 77E goes AKL-YVR with rows blocked off due to weight so they're carrying no extra cargo a
142 qf002 : It always seems like there is an overwhelming majority slamming QF, when in actual fact it's just a few very vocal few. I think this thread is a perf
143 Stitch : NH flies both planes, so I am inclined to believe their claims, and said claims (from ANA President and Chief Executive Shinichiro Ito) are their 787-
144 Post contains images Zkpilot : 77E is fine, but a 77L does it better. There are something like 130 airlines flying into DXB. Many of which are in OW or could be code-share partners
145 sunrisevalley : I agree. My figuring with PIANO X comes to this conclusion.
146 zeke : The QF group will be operating their 787s differently to the way they operate their 767s, so a like comparison by them would be difficult to do, esp
147 tayser : speak for yourself - there's nothing that makes me cringe more than QF's jingoistic marketing. The only route QF -could- have used a 77L on is MEL-No
148 Stitch : But are the planes actually going out at MZFW when flying across the Sea of Japan or the Eurasian continent? If they are not, then I would think the
149 jfk777 : Air Canada has many 10 hour flights from eastern Canada to Europe, deep South America and Vancouver to Japan. Some flights need a little more range b
150 aerokiwi : Really? How do you know this? Have you peered into some alternative reality to see how things would have gone had they not purchased the 777? No one'
151 Post contains images Cerecl : It appears that we are on completely different wavelengths. I was not talking about the A350 in particular, it was just an example. What I cannot agr
152 Post contains images astuteman : Although the later 238t ones most certainly do.. Per our conversation on the other thread... No way. Rgds
153 Zkpilot : LAX-BNE? NO, LAX-SYD? NO, LAX-MEL? Hell NO, Even LAX-AKL was a struggle so despite it having lower operating costs than the 744 the route was dropped
154 ZK-NBT : They weren't 238t ones though that QF used AKL-LAX, they have a couple of domestic 238t 332s and JQ have 4 of them. I'd have though LAX-BNE and SIN-F
155 Post contains images Stitch : Well thanks to NH's Japanese press release, we now have the context for Mr. Itou's comments and that context is that when he said "per flight", he wa
156 zeke : I do not think so, which is my point. The 787 has the theoretical potential to carry more payload, however with the low seating density, I do not thi
157 Zkpilot : I was told otherwise, that is that QF did use HGW A332 AKL-LAX. Even if they didn't, what you are talking about is an extra 1.5-3 hours flight time f
158 sunrisevalley : Assuming QF 332's weigh in similarly to TK's at about 126t DOW they should have been good for about 35t payload AKL-LAX. Westbound probably about 30t
159 Post contains images strangr : I am not going to read the entire thread, however. QF was offered the chance to get on the 777, they refused because they said they were happy to wai
160 Post contains images tayser : Google only pays miniscule taxes in many jurisdictions around the world - that wont last. A Qantas pilot may need to pay $150,000 in PAYG? Do Qantas
161 PHXA340 : Which at the time of the 787 launch was not that bad of a decision. I think many members are forgetting that. With that being said , successful busin
162 Post contains images AngMoh : With the 787 they would have a good Australia to Asia/Middle East (non-stop!) network with the capability to go on to smaller cities in Europe. Their
163 zeke : A senior QF Captain will, and on a per hour basis is a lot more than say a CX Captain based in Australia that also is employed in Australia and pays
164 qf002 : QF International only flies older A332's, the HGW are in domestic configuration so certainly did not fly AKL-LAX. I think that the speculation around
165 sunrisevalley : One reason is that the Ausralian CCA rules are much less generous than say those that apply to SQ.
166 Post contains images fiscal : It has been interesting reading this discussion, and whilst I know it has digressed from it's original subject matter, being the consequences of a del
167 cmf : That is a red herring. Both airlines are using longer terms than allowed under Australian rules. As is EK.
168 Sydscott : Actually it probably will. Without going into it in too much detail, the reason why Google pays such a small amount of tax is in Australia is because
169 gemuser : ???, please. Gemuser
170 slcdeltarumd11 : There are alot of people angry with Boeing over the 787.........i dont see the big deal here. They have a right to complain
171 Sydscott : Capital Allowance/Depreciation regime.
172 Zkpilot : QF does have some older A332s, however the aircraft that flew to LAX were new build and delivered in 2008/9
173 Post contains images Sydscott : You mean 2007/2008. VH-EBG to VH-EBL were delivered between very late 07 and very early 08. EBM was delivered in 09, EBN, EBO and EBP at various time
174 strfyr51 : Is He REALLY Pissed off or is he going to HollyWood with this 787 thing??
175 qf002 : I was talking more in relation to the potential of the extra range that the HGW A332's brought... I don't think A332's would have worked to Europe ei
176 thegeek : Hmm, interesting. I don't see the point with connecting with a BA LHR flight in DXB, but perhaps a MAN flight (for example) could make some sense. Al
177 Post contains images ha763 : EK flies SYD-DXB with a 77W. The great circle route falls within 120 min ETOPS. If you are talking about SYD-JNB, a 777 can fly it, but it just won't
178 thegeek : I think you may have misread what I wrote.
179 qf002 : The point that thegeek is trying to make is that the 777 discussion has nothing to do with the potential of QF flights to DXB. If they wanted to put
180 strangr : This i'd like to know also, however 2 daily flights from Sydney and Melbourne to LAX one morning one night would sure be full, if not very close. Mel
181 zeke : They tell me there is around 15% tax on their pension savings, capital gains, gst, petrol, excise, car, property, land, rates etc. Probably a lot hig
182 tayser : so Hong Kong's a third world country with zero tax on everything and everyone earns the same amount? I just dont get why you keep on talking about th
183 zeke : My conversations are with people who work for the same employer, same rank. Our Australian based pilots are employed in Australia, and we compared wh
184 Sydscott : 15% tax on pensions - The Superannuaton system is taxed at 15% of contributions and earnings but that tax is payable by the Super Fund, not the indiv
185 Zkpilot : Well theres VA and NZ close by. Both of which use QF facilities for various purposes.... 3 small airlines like that have to have understandings like
186 qf002 : There are no ongoing property/land taxes as such but there is stamp duty that you pay to the State when buying land/property. The rate varies, but te
187 Post contains links Sydscott : Yeah there is. The State Governments levy Land Tax if the land you own is over a certain threshold. http://www.osr.nsw.gov.au/taxes/land/ http://www.
188 EK413 : Very well said... Totally agree with your points... EK413
189 qf002 : Sorry, I phrased that poorly. I was trying to say that while you're right in saying land taxes only apply to a few, Stamp Duty applies to virtually e
190 SA7700 : As this thread has now evolved into a general discussion about Australian tax rates, it will be locked for further contributions. Any posts added afte
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