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Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?  
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3461 posts, RR: 5
Posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6380 times:

I understand the entire reason that EWR being more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan, what I've wondered is, why not JFK? as they do have connection opportunities on DL & AA all over the world from JFK. Is this because SEA-JFK is already flown by a couple other carriers, one being DL?


AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1016 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6348 times:

It's because when AS started service to the NYC metro area they were code share partners with CO. The partnerships with DL and AA didn't exist (but did with NW). The SEA-EWR flight on AS was code-shared with CO, as were CO flights SEA-IAH. That partnership ended about 4-5 years ago....AS stayed at EWR and started their own service to IAH. In fact the start of SEA-IAH might have been the nail in the coffin for AS and CO's relationship.

I'd love to see AS start service to JFK but it's well-covered out of SEA by remaining partners DL and AA. But never say never.



Next trip...DL RJ SEA-LAX/AM LAX-MEX Dec 23
User currently offlinepoLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2372 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6341 times:

I think at one point Continental and Alaska codeshared and had a mileage partnership. I believe it ended around the time CO left Skyteam and started getting closer to UA.

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3461 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6283 times:

Would it ever be in the cards for AS to serve both airports? I'd imagine not, but I'd love to see AS take on more domestic flying for it's AA and DL partnerships. IE...PDX-DFW, lessening AA's need to provide already minimal service into the Northwest. DL is a lot more entrenched in the NW and IMHO would benefit less from increased AS flying to cover domestic routes they already operate.


AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2101 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6215 times:

The question has been answered above, but no reason why a JFK and a EWR can't coexist, we could see it in the future.

User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5951 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6174 times:
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Isn't JFK slotted at certain times as well? There just may not be enough room at JFK for AS right now.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 4):
The question has been answered above, but no reason why a JFK and a EWR can't coexist, we could see it in the future.

I agree. I think AS could fly to both EWR and JFK and still do well.

It's too bad that LGA doesn't have any beyond-perimeter routes (or do they). I think AS would be right on it and have the case to be there.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4594 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6171 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
I understand the entire reason that EWR being more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan,

Just want to point out that most Manhattanites use LGA/JFK and not EWR. so your statement is not correct.

Other than that... a good topic question you've posed (and those above have answered).


User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1016 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6140 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):
It's too bad that LGA doesn't have any beyond-perimeter routes (or do they). I think AS would be right on it and have the case to be there.

That I would LOVE to see! I know LGA is slot controlled but I wonder like the original poster if there are restrictions as to where the flight originates into LGA.



Next trip...DL RJ SEA-LAX/AM LAX-MEX Dec 23
User currently offlineFlyingFan18 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6116 times:

If JFK is slot controlled (I forget if it is) is there even a possibility of AS getting the slots needed? Also which terminal would they go in? I doubt Delta would give up space especially with the ongoing construction. Maybe AA? Anyway I think Alaska could bring great stuff to JFK and would love to fly it out!
- FlyingFan18


User currently offlinepoLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2372 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6116 times:

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 7):
That I would LOVE to see! I know LGA is slot controlled but I wonder like the original poster if there are restrictions as to where the flight originates into LGA.

There are no exemptions to the perimeter rule other than DEN, due to DEN having service to LGA before the rule was implemented (the only city in that situation). Nonstop flights to SEA from LGA are not going to happen.

EDIT: There are no restrictions on Saturdays, but I doubt AS is interested in once weekly services.

[Edited 2012-06-13 06:57:33]

User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6116 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):
It's too bad that LGA doesn't have any beyond-perimeter routes (or do they). I think AS would be right on it and have the case to be there.

Nothing close to the DCA free-for-all beyond-perimeter permits that Congress_dba_DOT is granting people left and right.

And even if LGA is a bit closer to midtown Manhattan, it's a wash for pax coming from downtown Manhattan (vs. EWR), and the traffic congestion to LGA and absolutely antiquated CTB of LGA are major thumbs-down


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3461 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6093 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 6):

Just want to point out that most Manhattanites use LGA/JFK and not EWR. so your statement is not correct

Most of my clients that lived in New York City, would use EWR as opposed to JFK under most circumstances, in fact they were Elites with Continental. As they were celebrities, they flew to LA fairly often and they preferred CO from EWR vs UA or AA from JFK. So my statement is based upon personal experience and those of my well travelled clients.

I personally have used all 3 airports and find LGA the closest but congested, JFK is a fair distance, EWR seemed closer and a nicer facility, last I was there was when AS had first started flying to EWR.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3630 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5916 times:

"And even if LGA is a bit closer to midtown Manhattan, it's a wash for pax coming from downtown Manhattan (vs. EWR), and the traffic congestion to LGA and absolutely antiquated CTB of LGA are major thumbs-down"

Really, no one uses LGA for the CTB. It is close and convenient. So much closer then JFK or EWR...it always wins hands down.

And that is from uptown, downtown...whereever in the city (Manhattan). Because to get to Jersey, you need to go through a miserable tunnel that routinely has 45-60 min delays just to get into the tube. (No joke...welcome to NY)


"As they were celebrities, they flew to LA fairly often and they preferred CO from EWR vs UA or AA from JFK. So my statement is based upon personal experience and those of my well travelled clients."

Personal experience aside, turn on TMZ tonight and see what airport and terminal they are parked at to see the celebrities. It is quite interesting... AA at LAX, AA at JFK.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5897 times:

As to the OP's original question, AS would prefer to fly into LGA. Since they are prohibited their next choice is EWR,

Higher percentage of business travelers than JFK

Higher average fares than JFK

Less competition compared to JFK.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):

Personal experience aside, turn on TMZ tonight and see what airport and terminal they are parked at to see the celebrities. It is quite interesting... AA at LAX, AA at JFK.

Celebrities who need to be photographed fly into JFK, celebrities who don't need to be photographed fly into EWR or TEB.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinethreeifbyair From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 709 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5790 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
It's because when AS started service to the NYC metro area they were code share partners with CO. The partnerships with DL and AA didn't exist (but did with NW).

When did the AS-AA partnership start? I thought it existed before AS started the SEA-EWR service in 2002.

Other factors that likely influenced AS's decision:

EWR serves the Northern New Jersey market better than JFK - many major Fortune 500 companies (J&J, Merck, Medco, Prudential, Honeywell, etc.) are based in NJ and many foreign multinationals have their U.S. HQs in New Jersey. Not as many are in Long Island/Queens/Brooklyn, where JFK would be preferred.

CO was the only airline on SEA-EWR, whereas AS would face B6, AA, and DL at JFK.

AirTrain JFK opened at the end of 2003 - before that, public transportation to JFK was more difficult. AirTrain Newark opened in 1996.

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 1):
In fact the start of SEA-IAH might have been the nail in the coffin for AS and CO's relationship.

More importantly, CO was joining *A.


User currently offlinedartland From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 646 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5695 times:
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Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
Personal experience aside, turn on TMZ tonight and see what airport and terminal they are parked at to see the celebrities. It is quite interesting... AA at LAX, AA at JFK.
Quoting STT757 (Reply 13):
Celebrities who need to be photographed fly into JFK, celebrities who don't need to be photographed fly into EWR or TEB.

Almost all celebrities who fly commercial fly JFK-LAX on AA (with some on UA). Real celebrities would not fly CO/UA out of EWR. Not that this fact debases the central arguement because lots of people in Manhattan prefer EWR, it depends on lots of factors but EWR is certainly as attractive as JFK from Manhattan depending on where you live, where you fly, airline preference, mode of transport to the airport, time of you day you travel, etc.

But the celebrities example is the worst, since they fly AA or UA due to the 3-class service (they want to sit in "real" first) and the SAG contract with AA.

But we digress...


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4594 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5684 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 11):
Most of my clients that lived in New York City, would use EWR as opposed to JFK under most circumstances, in fact they were Elites with Continental. As they were celebrities, they flew to LA fairly often and they preferred CO from EWR vs UA or AA from JFK. So my statement is based upon personal experience and those of my well travelled clients.

Port Authority statistics show that Manhattan originating pax use LGA/JFK by a very wide margin compared to EWR.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5617 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
And that is from uptown, downtown...whereever in the city (Manhattan). Because to get to Jersey, you need to go through a miserable tunnel that routinely has 45-60 min delays just to get into the tube. (No joke...welcome to NY)

Try reaching LGA from downtown Manhattan at Friday 5pm and see when you can arrive. At least with EWR and JFK there's the option of rail, which is a heck more reliable to arrive on-time than congestion on any highway.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5554 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 16):
Port Authority statistics show that Manhattan originating pax use LGA/JFK by a very wide margin compared to EWR.

The latest statistics show EWR draws 34.3% of it's traffic from New York City, 27.5% from the Borough of Manhattan. That's pretty good no? 34.3%.

EWR.PDF" target="_blank">http://www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traffic/MAR2012_EWR.PDF

In contrast JFK draws a whopping 3.4% of it's travelers from New Jersey.

JFK.PDF" target="_blank">http://www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traffic/MAR2012_JFK.PDF

As pointed out EWR has the advantage of drawing business travelers from New York City as well as New Jersey. Honeywell for instance, who is a major supplier to Boeing, has their corporate headquarters in Madison New Jersey, I'm sure that was a major reasoning for AS chosing EWR vs JFK. As I pointed out, NYC O&D traffic will travel to EWR, New Jersey travelers will not travel to JFK.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4594 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5537 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 18):
The latest statistics show EWR draws 34.3% of it's traffic from New York City, 27.5% from the Borough of Manhattan. That's pretty good no? 34.3%.

Yes, but that has no relevance to the incorrect statement made by the OP:

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
I understand the entire reason that EWR being more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan,


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5522 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 19):
Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
I understand the entire reason that EWR being more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan,

Proximity to Manhattan and the Northern New Jersey market, which has more corporations than Long Island. Again look at Honeywell in Madison New Jersey. Besides the aviation connection there's the bio-medical/pharmaceutical connection. I was just in Seattle last Summer and the South Shore of Lake Union has totally been transformed since my last visit in 2000, it's now a huge center for bio-medical research. There are strong business ties to the medical/pharma community in New Jersey.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...nology/2003584026_webikaria22.html



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAirontario From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 563 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5423 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 19):
Yes, but that has no relevance to the incorrect statement made by the OP:

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):I understand the entire reason that EWR being more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan,

It isn't an incorrect statement if it's correct. The fact is EWR is close to Manhattan. It is also much easier to get to EWR from Manhattan that it is to get to JFK from Manhattan.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4594 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5283 times:

Quoting Airontario (Reply 21):
It isn't an incorrect statement if it's correct. The fact is EWR is close to Manhattan. It is also much easier to get to EWR from Manhattan that it is to get to JFK from Manhattan.

Originally statement:

Quoting Airontario (Reply 21):
I understand the entire reason that EWR being more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan,

Please read the above carefully. It was stated that EWR is more desirable because of its proximity to Manhattan. Are you saying it is more desirable / preferred by pax from Manhattan? Because if that is what you mean, then that is incorrect.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
Proximity to Manhattan and the Northern New Jersey market, which has more corporations than Long Island. Again look at Honeywell in Madison New Jersey. Besides the aviation connection there's the bio-medical/pharmaceutical connection. I was just in Seattle last Summer and the South Shore of Lake Union has totally been transformed since my last visit in 2000, it's now a huge center for bio-medical research. There are strong business ties to the medical/pharma community in New Jersey.

Please, don't start the "EWR Chamber of Commerce" speeches. You've now strayed way beyond what I pointed out in the OP's statement.



[Edited 2012-06-13 12:27:50]

[Edited 2012-06-13 12:28:28]

User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9828 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5217 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
why not JFK? as they do have connection opportunities on DL & AA all over the world from JFK. Is this because SEA-JFK is already flown by a couple other carriers, one being DL?

Both DL and AA fly SEA-JFK and their departures are timed to connect with their international banks of departures. AA and DL are going to prefer to keep people on their own metal for the entire route rather than codeshare and typically passengers prefer flying on the same airline. AS flies SEA-ORD/ATL/DFW for O/D and not necessarily for connections onwards to DL or AA flights.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5180 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 22):
Please, don't start the "EWR Chamber of Commerce" speeches. You've now strayed way beyond what I pointed out in the OP's statement.

I was answering the OP's questions, "why EWR vs. JFK".

Both EWR and JFK are equal distance to Manhattan, however EWR also serves the Northern New Jersey business communities which is home to several companies (Honeywell) that do business with Puget Sound Companies (Boeing). There are no significant business ties between Queens or Long Island to the Puget Sound area, thus EWR is a more attractive destination for an airline based in Seattle.

Fact is if AS moved to JFK they would lose the New Jersey business traffic to UA, and end up fighting for the JFK - SEA market with AA, B6 and DL.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
25 BoeingGuy : In fact AS and AA still do not code-share on each other's SEA-DFW flights It's more expensive to connect from AS SEA-DFW to an onward AA flight, than
26 N62NA : And your statistical basis for such an assertion?
27 alggag : Not to start another can of worms, but I don't get the insistence on going by car to EWR or JFK. Sure, LGA is cab/car service orientated but travel t
28 Post contains images RWA380 : Well, that is your opinion, my real celebrity clients, with multiple platinum albums and extensive grammy awards would disagree with you, CO was gver
29 JasonCRH : Just because they dont code share does not mean they do not connect. I used to live in Dallas and fly frequently to Buenos Aires and Santiago. there w
30 N62NA : I'm taking great care to stick only to what you wrote in your OP (I'm not going on rambling about companies in Madison NJ for example). You wrote in
31 termbewr : Many Manhattan residents have an aversion to EWR as they have no real concept of how close it is. I live in Manhattan and some people think EWR is on
32 rampart : As all of Manhattan is better than 70% car-less, compared to the rest of NYC, which ranges from 5-60% car-free households, people in Manhattan would b
33 VC10DC10 : Good grief, it's getting hard to read a thread about a route involving a New York City-area airport without getting into a huge Jersey-versus-Long Isl
34 N62NA : Except that they aren't, because...
35 JBAirwaysFan : I was actually going to cite this as the reason why we don't have AS at JFK. With DL and AA flying JFK-SEA they really have no need to since they cod
36 jfklganyc : "As all of Manhattan is better than 70% car-less, compared to the rest of NYC, which ranges from 5-60% car-free households, people in Manhattan would
37 rampart : I looked up the above referenced statistics and compared it to the locally originating traffic, as a representative proportion. JFK takes 43% of the
38 rampart : I admit the last time I flew out of JFK (on purpose), Air Train did not exist at JFK, so I neglect its existence, my bad. I experienced the NJ Transi
39 Post contains images N62NA : Ah, but that's looking at it backwards. You're looking at what percentage of pax using each airport is from a particular place. The relevant (as it r
40 tommy767 : Another reason AS continues to fly into EWR is that the flight is indeed codeshared with Delta. For the last 1.5 years or so, AS has been flying out o
41 EWRandMDW : From my login name you can infer that I'm a fan of EWR, but this constant bickering over which airport someone living in Manhattan prefers is getting
42 threeifbyair : PDX-EWR would seem like a promising option - I agree that AS would probably prefer to keep operations at one NYC airport for the time being. ANC-EWR
43 Post contains images rampart : Relax, we're just messin' with statistics at this point. It's actually an interesting question, which is why PANYNJ surveys passengers every year. He
44 STT757 : Actually comparing it to JFK and LGA EWR's numbers are really strong. EWR get's 34% of it's traffic from New York City, JFK gets 3.4% of it's traffic
45 N62NA :
46 tommy767 : I think it's the other way around. Why would someone in NJ go to JFK unless it's significantly cheaper? I agree. UA flies it with generally 319s and
47 rampart : All the prediction and statistics in the world have a hard time with illogical mindsets, in any field. It's the same mindset that has people spending
48 m11stephen : Here are some comparisons just for conversation sake... According to Google Maps, Using the shortest route by road from Grand Central Terminal to EWR
49 tdscanuck : I take it you haven't gone through EWR since they installed the NJT train station? You don't do the bus anymore. You go straight onto the train. Much
50 STT757 : EWR desperately needs the PATH extension. The PATH currently ends 1.5 miles from the Newark Airport rail link station. That would provide a one seat r
51 Post contains images N62NA : You and I rarely agree on anything it seems. But on this, we agree!
52 BoeingGuy : I'm not sure that AS's equipment can do EWR-ANC. I believe ORD-ANC is close to the range limit.
53 termbewr : The issue of "is EWR or JFK better" is not valid. It entirely depends upon where you are traveling from or to. For example, if you live in Westchester
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