Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal  
User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1543 posts, RR: 12
Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8736 times:

The European slashing continues. ATL-BCN ends for the winter on October 26th while JFK-PRG is ending on November 17th. Good for DL and others to cut their losses in the offseason with a bad economy but there sure will be a lot of heavy metal sitting around (and yes I know a lot of DL planes will be going through mods). The cuts are loaded in DL's desktop timetable.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe these will be the European markets left operating by the middle of January from JFK and ATL.

JFK:

LHR
CDG
AMS
SVO
MXP
BRU
FRA
DUB
MAD
BCN
VCE
IST

ATL:

LHR
CDG
AMS
FCO
FRA
MUC
DUS
STR
ZRH
BRU
MAD
MAN
DUB


717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3038 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8568 times:

Quoting FL787 (Thread starter):
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe these will be the European markets left operating by the middle of January from JFK and ATL.

It makes good business sense but it's still amazing that there's not going to be a JFK-FCO flight...


User currently offlinealitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4750 posts, RR: 45
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8273 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 1):
It makes good business sense but it's still amazing that there's not going to be a JFK-FCO flight...

Why operate JFK-FCO when your JV partner Alitalia operates and you share revenue.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8274 times:

IT seems that JFK-PRG has not been performing very well lately. It was downgraded from an a333 at the end of last summer and is now seasonal.

User currently offlineBizJet From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8240 times:

Back in May, Ed Bastian announced at an investor conference that Delta would be drawing down transatlantic capacity in the 4th quarter winter trough by 5% (with similar reductions by the other JV partners). No particular signs of weakness but just general careful management of capacity in very weak demand periods amid caution about the economic environment.

We're now seeing some of the specific reductions.

For what it's worth, this is another good example of the power of the JVs to help airlines operate profitably. The JV partners can draw down capacity on thinner routes while retaining much of the traffic within the JV, given the variety of gateways on both sides of the Atlantic to route the traffic over. For example, a pre-JV Delta might want to stay in ATL-BCN in the winter, but now it can comfortably exit the route in the winter and keep much of the traffic either over JFK or over AMS/CDG.


User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3038 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8014 times:

Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 2):
Why operate JFK-FCO when your JV partner Alitalia operates and you share revenue.

Go back and read what I wrote: I'm agreeing with you, although I would posit that the Alitalia business product is inferior to DL's but that's a whole different thread  Smile Still, for the first time in a long time there's no DL metal on JFK-FCO.

[Edited 2012-06-14 21:05:16]

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7654 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7942 times:

Quoting FL787 (Thread starter):
JFK:
Quoting FL787 (Thread starter):
BCN

This is staying year-round, right? This sounds like too good of a route for DL to cut. When I flew it a few years back it was overbooked.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3038 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7889 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
This is staying year-round, right? This sounds like too good of a route for DL to cut. When I flew it a few years back it was overbooked.

The Spanish economy is in the tank though, and as we all know loads don't necessarily mean high yields or profitability, but I have to think you're right. They can't be leaving the BCN market entirely.

[Edited 2012-06-14 22:02:28]

User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 755 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7860 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 5):
Still, for the first time in a long time there's no DL metal on JFK-FCO.

Did DL have their own metal on JFK-FCO last winter?



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7587 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7803 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 5):
that the Alitalia business product is inferior to DL's but that's a whole different thread  

I do not have first-hand information (i.e., no personal experience flying DL J or AZ J trans-Atlantic), but it seems the new AZ product on the A332s is very, very good. Might as well be better than DL's.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7671 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 8):
Did DL have their own metal on JFK-FCO last winter?

No they left AZ only on the route.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2816 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7454 times:

Quoting BizJet (Reply 4):
a pre-JV Delta might want to stay in ATL-BCN in the winter, but now it can comfortably exit the route in the winter and keep much of the traffic either over JFK or over AMS/CDG.

It's not quite the same. With BCN-ATL (and to a lesser extent BCN-JFK) one can reach zillions of US destinations with one only connection (say, BCN-ATL-AUS), while if going through AMS/CDG that's only possible for the handful of destinations AF/KL fly to non-stop from AMS/CDG (say BCN-CDG-SFO, but not BCN-CDG-AUS).



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinerealsim From Spain, joined Apr 2010, 647 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7286 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 7):
The Spanish economy is in the tank though, and as we all know loads don't necessarily mean high yields or profitability, but I have to think you're right. They can't be leaving the BCN market entirely.

Even if the Spanish economy is in a bad shape right now, the number of passengers at BCN are growing a 3% this year (even without Spanair), and last year also grew. MAD is also growing its international passengers (not the domestic ones, because of the opening of new high speed train routes).

I don't have facts to prove it, but my opinion is that DL is leaving BCN-ATL at winter also because the effects of IB/AA/BA's JV. They are operating 2 daily 763 to JFK and MIA, while before there was only a 763 to JFK at summer and a 757 at winter.


User currently offlinecokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1184 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7129 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 5):

This is actually the second winter season with no Delta metal on this route.


User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6666 times:

This will be the 2nd year in a row that there won't be a JFK-FCO flight in the winter, it will also be the first year there won't be a JFK-ATH flight in the winter. Now we can add JFK-PRG to the list...

User currently offlinealitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4750 posts, RR: 45
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6413 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 5):
Go back and read what I wrote: I'm agreeing with you, although I would posit that the Alitalia business product is inferior to DL's but that's a whole different thread Smile Still, for the first time in a long time there's no DL metal on JFK-FCO.

Flying both often, I'd actually argue the opposite.

Alitalia's a/c are equipped with flat beds that are wider than Delta's.

Alitalia's Magnifica food is significantly better than Delta's BusinessElite offering.

The only place Delta may excel is in service delivery, however Delta's crews have been largely hit or miss lately.

Delta's investing in the hard product, but the soft-product has a long way to go.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2051 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5739 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 11):
Quoting BizJet (Reply 4):
a pre-JV Delta might want to stay in ATL-BCN in the winter, but now it can comfortably exit the route in the winter and keep much of the traffic either over JFK or over AMS/CDG.

It's not quite the same. With BCN-ATL (and to a lesser extent BCN-JFK) one can reach zillions of US destinations with one only connection (say, BCN-ATL-AUS), while if going through AMS/CDG that's only possible for the handful of destinations AF/KL fly to non-stop from AMS/CDG (say BCN-CDG-SFO, but not BCN-CDG-AUS).

Yes, but how much traffic really is there during the off season anyway.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2816 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5621 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 16):
Yes, but how much traffic really is there during the off season anyway.

Between BCN and the whole US? A lot. But there are other options, of course. Specifically, this coming winter: JFK with AA and DL, EWR with UA, MIA with AA, and all the routes via European hubs. But ATL provides more connectivity than any other option.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2051 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4820 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 17):
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 16):
Yes, but how much traffic really is there during the off season anyway.

Between BCN and the whole US? A lot.

Yes, but not enough high yield traffic unfortunately.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2816 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4690 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 18):
Yes, but not enough high yield traffic unfortunately.

Well, enough to sustain BCN to JFK (AA and DL), EWR (UA) and MIA (AA) in the winter, plus ATL (DL) and PHL (US) in the summer...



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineavi8 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 672 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4544 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

It's amazing how much DL has reduced its transatlantic hub at JFK. One could argue wether ATL is its main transatlantic hub now. ATL even has more European destinations. Aside the local demand, what's the secondary purpose for JFK now that many European routes are gone?


avi8
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7654 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4483 times:

Quoting avi8 (Reply 20):
Aside the local demand, what's the secondary purpose for JFK now that many European routes are gone?

There are many more connection opportunities at ATL than JFK. JFK is also very crowded (this, despite ATL's status as the world's busiest airport.)


Even then, ATL is quite a bit more convenient, especially with the new F concourse.

I'll never connect through ATL, though, personally    Always through MSP if I'm going to the east coast 



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4914 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4436 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting avi8 (Reply 20):
It's amazing how much DL has reduced its transatlantic hub at JFK. One could argue wether ATL is its main transatlantic hub now. ATL even has more European destinations.

It's the opposite really - ATL has had tremendous reductions this year, losing CPH, PRG, SVO, ATH, and TLV even during the summer. It will also soon lose ACC. Currently for the summer, JFK has more transatlantic destinations than ATL (JFK has 24 European destinations, versus ATL's 16; they each have three Middle East/Africa destinations as well). It's just that JFK has more seasonal destinations than ATL (SNN, ZRH, CPH, ARN, KEF, PRG, ATH, AGP, VLC, PSA, etc.)


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4914 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3924 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Just noticed some interesting equipment changes for the Winter transatlantic schedules:

JFK-CDG will be on an A332 (has traditionally been a 763ER)
JFK-SVO will also use the A332 (traditionally been the 763ER or 764ER)
JFK-AMS will upgauge to an A333 (was 763ER last winter, was A332 winter before).

MSP-CDG will remain an A332 (from the summer); was 763ER last winter.

AMS-BOM will use an A333 (can't remember whether they used the A332 or A333 last winter)

PDX-AMS will be a 763ER (some previous posts had indicated that PDX-AMS would keep the A330 for the winter).

Flatbed 763ERs (eight of them so far in service) so far only loaded on three routes: JFK-BRU, JFK-FRA, and SEA-PEK.


User currently onlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3510 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3764 times:

"It's amazing how much DL has reduced its transatlantic hub at JFK. One could argue wether ATL is its main transatlantic hub now. ATL even has more European destinations. Aside the local demand, what's the secondary purpose for JFK now that many European routes are gone?"


Dude, what are you talking about?

DL has put much more emphasis on the TA flying out of JFK vs ATL.

"It's the opposite really - ATL has had tremendous reductions this year, losing CPH, PRG, SVO, ATH, and TLV even during the summer. It will also soon lose ACC. Currently for the summer, JFK has more transatlantic destinations than ATL (JFK has 24 European destinations, versus ATL's 16; they each have three Middle East/Africa destinations as well). It's just that JFK has more seasonal destinations than ATL (SNN, ZRH, CPH, ARN, KEF, PRG, ATH, AGP, VLC, PSA, etc.)"


Bingo


25 Talaier : IB's ATI has lured in a lot of premium traffic . Bear in mind a lot of the corporate contracts in BCN still are with IB and hence OW. Being able to b
26 PHX787 : In comparison, with OW, how many flights are going into BCN from AA? And of course, would Vueling ever join an alliance (or have they? I've been out
27 Talaier : Daily MIA and daily JFK, both 767s. That adds to the flights operated by IB and AA to the US from MAD (you board in BCN with a single flight number a
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
DL JFK GOT Postponed, ATL KIN Now Seasonal posted Mon Dec 15 2008 12:13:48 by DL747400
It's 1930 And You Want To Become A Cabin Crew posted Tue Jan 5 2010 05:05:36 by Yhmfan
DL's JFK-LAX And BusinessElite posted Fri Oct 23 2009 08:21:31 by FlyASAGuy2005
VA And Pacific Blue To Become "Virgin"? posted Mon Dec 22 2008 11:06:01 by Kleiner
BCN To Become Star Alliance Hub For South Europe posted Wed Dec 13 2006 04:40:57 by Rogerbcn
DL, JFK DXB And Others posted Thu Oct 5 2006 09:14:04 by GFA330
MDW To Become Seasonal Airport? posted Thu Jun 22 2006 16:19:12 by MasseyBrown
DL To Announce JFK-PSA/OTP; ATL-ICN/DXB/VIE/PRG posted Thu Oct 12 2006 02:29:15 by Iluv747400
DL To Resume Seasonal Serv. ATL To Lewisburg, W.V. posted Mon Feb 14 2005 21:16:33 by Iowaman
CX Reduces Service To JFK, LAX And YYZ posted Thu May 17 2012 06:55:08 by cx828