poLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1591 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 hours ago) and read 25588 times:
Well, according to the article, it hasn't received its first aircraft yet, but soon it will. And while I think they will fly (how successful is another story) having an aircraft doesn't necessarily mean anything, as Baltia and Family Airlines prove.
RWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2220 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 hours ago) and read 25583 times:
How can they add SJD when I'd expect there is no FIS facility at CLD? I love the idea if this, a decent sized catchment area, I really hope they carve a niche for themselves. I had heard in a previous thread California Pacific intended to eventually serve PDX & SEA, but not initially.Any info on their future plans? Thanks for sharing freakyrat.
Next Flights: AS PDX-SAN-LIH on 739/738 in F, HA LIH-HNL-KOA-OGG on 717 in Y, AS OGG-PDX on 738 in F
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6157 posts, RR: 12 Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 hours ago) and read 24448 times:
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2): I had heard in a previous thread California Pacific intended to eventually serve PDX & SEA, but not initially.Any info on their future plans?
I thought the runway was too short to make it that far. Isn't it like 5 or 6 thousand feet? The E170 is not a good short-field airplane.
Quoting C767P (Reply 4): Quoting RWA380 (Reply 2):
How can they add SJD when I'd expect there is no FIS facility at CLD?
They do have FIS at CRQ, they have for at least the last five years.
You must mean that they have CBP officers, how could they have an FIS? They have no service. The presence of officers is not the same as the ability to process scheduled passengers.
usxguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 845 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 hours ago) and read 24432 times:
We had no problems with the USAirways Express (well, mainline) EMB 170s in and out of Key West. These planes did so much better than the CRJ 700/CRJ 200/Embraer 135/145s.
Instead the airport is what is know as a UFCS "user fee customs service", or basically on-call during limited service hours and with prior permission - similar to Long Beach airport for example.
There is per flight charge of about $1,200 on a larger business jet and which can cover the dozen pax at the FBO.
For info this program is slated also to expire in January 2013 - as USCBP has been unable to achieve full cost recovery which was a requisite when the program was established 4 years ago.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 hours ago) and read 24018 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 5): I thought the runway was too short to make it that far. Isn't it like 5 or 6 thousand feet? The E170 is not a good short-field airplane.
I would assume then that an E170 couldn't do a DEN-CLD run? I thought DEN would eventually be a good destination to/from CLD, but if this bird can't make the run...... oh well?
3holer From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 10 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 hours ago) and read 23299 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 5): I thought the runway was too short to make it that far. Isn't it like 5 or 6 thousand feet? The E170 is not a good short-field airplane.
I beg to differ, the E-170 is an excellent short field airplane. Both landing and takeoff. Obviously penalties can be taken for climb gradient requirements and runway conditions just like any other airplane, but as a general rule it has excellent short field capabilities.
I would doubt they would have gotten this far if the airplane did not meet their needs.
FATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5673 posts, RR: 17 Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 hours ago) and read 23250 times:
Just to clarify, commercial flights can operate internationally to a user-fee airport. But like LAXIntl states there are costs that must be reimbursed to CBP by airports with that status.
For example, FAT had user-fee status when MX started flights back in 2006. To offset the CBP charged costs, FAT put in place a per deplaned passenger charge that the Mexican airlines collected. I believe it was $15 per passenger in 2006
If I remember correctly, CBP will consider changing an airports status and then CBP covering inspection costs once an airport crosses a threshold of 15,000 or so international arrivals annually. But I am not sure the current minimum passenger number.
But even under user fee status, Carlsbad would need an approved FIS large enought to process a California Pacific flight, not just a small biz jet.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
boeing727 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 935 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 hour ago) and read 23064 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 9):
I would assume then that an E170 couldn't do a DEN-CLD run? I thought DEN would eventually be a good destination to/from CLD, but if this bird can't make the run...... oh well?
It certainly can all day long...we run the ERJ170-200 from EYW to CLT (just shy of CRQ-DEN distance) and their ERJ170-100 would have no problems to DEN, PDX and SEA out of Carlsbad, CA.
SANMAN66 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 611 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 hour ago) and read 22352 times:
They have mentioned in the past that the SJD flight was supposed to only operate on the weekends.
SJD is supposed to come later after the intital cities. I figure once they decide to start up SJD, they'll
figure out the FIS situation. The first thing is to see how successful they are with the intial routes
before jumping into something international.
rikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1470 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 19710 times:
Much as there will only ever be ONE Pan Am or ONE Braniff, there will only ever be ONE CP Air....regardless of a name imitation from a different country.
N202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1550 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 19311 times:
Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 10): But even under user fee status, Carlsbad would need an approved FIS large enought to process a California Pacific flight, not just a small biz jet.
Wouldn't CLD benefit as an airport if a FIS was added? Given that, might the airport cover a portion of the costs of establishing a station there?
Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 15):
Much as there will only ever be ONE Pan Am or ONE Braniff, there will only ever be ONE CP Air....regardless of a name imitation from a different country.
Seems like they'll be using the branding "California Pacific Airlines" (see livery), so it's all good.
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4746 posts, RR: 15 Reply 19, posted (12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 17802 times:
I'm very happy to see another positive step forward for Ed and the gang! As always, I wish the entire team the best of luck with this endeavor and I look forward to seeing their first revenue flight depart from Carlsbad in the not-too-distant future.
bb
(Hey it just occurred to me that perhaps I'll have to change my A.net screen name to CRQ/SANFan!)
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 17685 times:
Quoting boeing727 (Reply 11): It certainly can all day long...we run the ERJ170-200 from EYW to CLT (just shy of CRQ-DEN distance) and their ERJ170-100 would have no problems to DEN, PDX and SEA out of Carlsbad, CA.
Thanks for the info..... so I guess then CLD/DEN could be a future route on California Pacific Airlines?
SANMAN66 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 611 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 17268 times:
I would love to see the finished product. I know it's somewhere around the end of the month, but I wonder
what day they'll bring it in to CLD? I'd love to see it, or someone could get some pix?
FATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5673 posts, RR: 17 Reply 22, posted (12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 17240 times:
Quoting N202PA (Reply 16): Wouldn't CLD benefit as an airport if a FIS was added? Given that, might the airport cover a portion of the costs of establishing a station there?
The question is the cost vs benefit of a FIS. That is a question the airport and locals would need to answer.
Cost (or proposed cost) to construct a FIS for commercial flights that I have seen for smaller airports (at BFL, LAN, MLI, SCK) the past few years has been in the $4 to $7 million range. The airport would pay that not the federal government.
Then there is the FIS staffing cost. Cost at smaller airports for FIS staff for commercial flights is thousands of dollars per week. That would need to be covered as a user-fee airport either directly or via passenger/airline fees.
I'm not sure I see growth potential for international service at Carlsbad beyond the proposed weekend flights to SJD. Being sandwiched less than 1 hour from the larger SAN to the south and SNA to the north seems to limit the potential for international flights. I can see potential for regional domestic flights but I don't see much potential for international.
Maybe the airport would think the FIS cost is worthwhile. But Bakersfield spent $7 million to build a FIS for GDL flights on Mexicana that started in 2007. Flights operated for only 1 year. BFL's customs station is still there to handle GA and some cargo but the FIS complex is largely unused. CLD would need to analyze cost vs benefit and the risk of a future unused building to decide if the expenditure made sense for the airport.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
F9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4745 posts, RR: 29 Reply 23, posted (12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 16508 times:
Quoting poLot (Reply 1): And while I think they will fly (how successful is another story) having an aircraft doesn't necessarily mean anything, as Baltia and Family Airlines prove.
Never heard of Baltia. Family Airline is being run by a known con artist that went to prison for the first attempt of Family Airlines. Barry Michaels is back at it again, trying to find investors.... He last changed the name to Avatar Airlines. You can't compare Family Airlines to California Pacific! CP has gotten past a majority of hurdles, and has a heck of a team working to get this airline flying. They have what looks like a solid business plan, and good financial backing. CP has a team of strong talent, and this airline might just prove the nay sayers wrong. I have my bets that this airline will be successful. I doubt they will ever be massive in size, but I suspect they will find comfortable markets, and grow big enough to sustain healthy profits.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22240 posts, RR: 51 Reply 24, posted (12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 16127 times:
As comparison, beyond the new terminal complex housing FIS, SNA must fund CBP to a tune of up to $2.8mil annually to have CBP available to screen up to 3 flights with no more than 150 passengers each between hours of 0800 and 1700. In addition SNA had to also fund $450,000 in government mandated equipment for the facility, plus even fund for CBP vehicle purchases. Additionally the airport would provide free rent, utilities etc for CBP facilities and office usage as part of the deal.
Quite a costly venture for small airports.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
RWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2220 posts, RR: 4 Reply 27, posted (12 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 13219 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7): Instead the airport is what is know as a UFCS "user fee customs service", or basically on-call during limited service hours and with prior permission - similar to Long Beach airport for example.
There is per flight charge of about $1,200 on a larger business jet and which can cover the dozen pax at the FBO.
For info this program is slated also to expire in January 2013 - as USCBP has been unable to achieve full cost recovery which was a requisite when the program was established 4 years ago.
Thanks LAX, I knew someone would know how SJD could ever be considered a destination, it seems SJD is increasing in popularity as a Mexico vacation destination, it has a lower violence rate than places like ACA. It's Americanized like Cancun, and it's close proximity to California and the West coast makes it ideal for long weekends without breaking the bank. California Pacific is going to be taking people from a good demographic catchment area to regional and vacation destinations, which is why they are only planning on weekend service, when business routes will be slow. Smart ideas so far, even down to aircraft choice. Maybe they could seasonally operate a flight to YVR.
Quoting boeing727 (Reply 11): It certainly can all day long...we run the ERJ170-200 from EYW to CLT (just shy of CRQ-DEN distance) and their ERJ170-100 would have no problems to DEN, PDX and SEA out of Carlsbad, CA
I knew I had read that California Pacific was looking to add PDX & SEA as part of their first expansion after their initial start. Thanks boeing727
Quoting N202PA (Reply 16): Wouldn't CLD benefit as an airport if a FIS was added? Given that, might the airport cover a portion of the costs of establishing a station there?
Maybe HOU can give them some tips...
Next Flights: AS PDX-SAN-LIH on 739/738 in F, HA LIH-HNL-KOA-OGG on 717 in Y, AS OGG-PDX on 738 in F
flycpair From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 18 posts, RR: 2 Reply 28, posted (12 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 12007 times:
The registration number of our first Embraer 170 is N760CP. The aircraft was previously operated by Cirrus Airlines in Germany which formerly was a Lufthansa connection carrier.
Our initial application for certification with the FAA is for domestic flying only. We will apply for Flag (International) and Supplemental (Charter) after our initial regulatory approval. We have been working to ensure adequate staffing and sufficient space to clear international arrivals so that CLD's FIS will be financially viable.
As to the performance of the Embraer 170 from Carlsbad, a good example to look at is London City Airport (LCY.) The runway is similar in length to CLD and British Airways has 13 E-Jets based there.
RWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2220 posts, RR: 4 Reply 30, posted (12 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 11339 times:
Quoting flycpair (Reply 28): The registration number of our first Embraer 170 is N760CP. The aircraft was previously operated by Cirrus Airlines in Germany which formerly was a Lufthansa connection carrier.
Our initial application for certification with the FAA is for domestic flying only. We will apply for Flag (International) and Supplemental (Charter) after our initial regulatory approval. We have been working to ensure adequate staffing and sufficient space to clear international arrivals so that CLD's FIS will be financially viable.
As to the performance of the Embraer 170 from Carlsbad, a good example to look at is London City Airport (LCY.) The runway is similar in length to CLD and British Airways has 13 E-Jets based there.
Hey Randy, thanks for the info, we are pulling for your fledgling carrier, best of luck, seems like a solid business plan so far. If you do make it to PDX, I'll definitely buy at least 2 seats to go visit your hometown. Exciting stuff.
Next Flights: AS PDX-SAN-LIH on 739/738 in F, HA LIH-HNL-KOA-OGG on 717 in Y, AS OGG-PDX on 738 in F
san747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4936 posts, RR: 13 Reply 31, posted (12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 11031 times:
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 30):
Hey Randy, thanks for the info, we are pulling for your fledgling carrier, best of luck, seems like a solid business plan so far. If you do make it to PDX, I'll definitely buy at least 2 seats to go visit your hometown. Exciting stuff.
Agreed. And I, and hopefully plenty of other spotters, will be at CRQ for the first arrival and departure!
flycpair From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 18 posts, RR: 2 Reply 34, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10209 times:
The paint job on California Pacific's first Embraer 170 is almost done. Plane spotters may want to plan on spending Saturday morning at CLD. More details soon pending some last minute regulatory and acceptance items.
California Pacific's first Embraer 170 nears completion of its paint job.
SANMAN66 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 611 posts, RR: 1 Reply 35, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10030 times:
Quoting flycpair (Reply 34): The paint job on California Pacific's first Embraer 170 is almost done. Plane spotters may want to plan on spending Saturday morning at CLD. More details soon pending some last minute regulatory and acceptance items.
Great paint job! I hope someone will get lots of pictures of it at CLD!
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 37, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9952 times:
Quoting flycpair (Reply 28): As to the performance of the Embraer 170 from Carlsbad, a good example to look at is London City Airport (LCY.) The runway is similar in length to CLD and British Airways has 13 E-Jets based there.
Hmmmm okay, the longest BA E170 flight from LCA is about 875 miles.
Now, from SAN (since this is pretty close to CLD), DEN is within this range at 856 miles. However, PDX is 934, SEA is 1052, DWF is 1168 and IAH is 1301 miles, all seemingly outside of the range. Airports such as ABQ and SLC would work, but the other are a bit far, yes?
N202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1550 posts, RR: 4 Reply 39, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9611 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 37): Hmmmm okay, the longest BA E170 flight from LCA is about 875 miles.
Now, from SAN (since this is pretty close to CLD), DEN is within this range at 856 miles. However, PDX is 934, SEA is 1052, DWF is 1168 and IAH is 1301 miles, all seemingly outside of the range. Airports such as ABQ and SLC would work, but the other are a bit far, yes?
2 questions:
1.) Are any of those BA 170 flights capacity/weight restricted?
2.) Could CP do this in order to buy more range out of CLD?
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4746 posts, RR: 15 Reply 40, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 9294 times:
Quoting flycpair (Reply 34): Plane spotters may want to plan on spending Saturday morning at CLD. More details soon pending some last minute regulatory and acceptance items.
Thanx for the update Randy. From what we've seen so far, looks like a pretty sharp livery you folks have come up with! Looking forward to the next news out of SoCal.
knope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2567 posts, RR: 31 Reply 42, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8943 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 37): Now, from SAN (since this is pretty close to CLD), DEN is within this range at 856 miles. However, PDX is 934, SEA is 1052, DWF is 1168 and IAH is 1301 miles, all seemingly outside of the range. Airports such as ABQ and SLC would work, but the other are a bit far, yes?
Republic flew E170 for Midwest Airlines daily for months on MCI-LAX at 1363 miles and MCI-BOS at 1256 miles. They also few some trips for MCI-SFO and MCI-SEA which are 1499 and 1489 miles. Those appear to be subsitutions, however.
Not aware of any serious weight penalties on MCI-LAX or MCI-BOS, and it doesn't seem too likely they'd purposely put the E170 on those routes month after month if there were. So that suggests a good 1300 or so miles is reliably within the E170 range.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 43, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8925 times:
Quoting knope2001 (Reply 42): and it doesn't seem too likely they'd purposely put the E170 on those routes month after month if there were. So that suggests a good 1300 or so miles is reliably within the E170 range.
I think that the issue though is the shorter runway at CLD.
knope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2567 posts, RR: 31 Reply 44, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8849 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 43): I think that the issue though is the shorter runway at CLD.
sunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1936 posts, RR: 9 Reply 46, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8473 times:
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 45): Wait till ya see the whole plane....very sharp looking
united319 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 513 posts, RR: 0 Reply 47, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8017 times:
So glad to hear this is happening. I grew up flying in and out of CLD back in the day when the Terminal was a trailer (literally). The new Terminal is absolutely beautiful. I hope they succeed in flying out of there. I always thought the airlines could possibly make some $$ with flying some other route than CLD-LAX. Too bad also no more DH8 service to PHX (since 2005;ish).
On a side note, will UA keep serving CLD once OO dumps all of their E120's? With the recent runway extension, can a CR2 or CR7 make it in and out of there for a short LAX hop?
N202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1550 posts, RR: 4 Reply 48, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7824 times:
Quoting united319 (Reply 47): On a side note, will UA keep serving CLD once OO dumps all of their E120's? With the recent runway extension, can a CR2 or CR7 make it in and out of there for a short LAX hop?
CR2, I would guess yes - they've flown into EYW on short hops, which has a similar runway length to CLD. CR7 probably not, unless it was capacity/weight restricted - in which case, why aren't you flying a CR2 in the first place?
Alias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2648 posts, RR: 2 Reply 51, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7721 times:
Quoting N202PA (Reply 48): CR2, I would guess yes - they've flown into EYW on short hops, which has a similar runway length to CLD. CR7 probably not, unless it was capacity/weight restricted - in which case, why aren't you flying a CR2 in the first place?
CR7 is a better performer than the CR2 due to the addition of leading edge slats. At max gross weight both VR and Vref are about 10 knots lower on the CR7.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
SANMAN66 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 611 posts, RR: 1 Reply 52, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7490 times:
Quoting united319 (Reply 47): On a side note, will UA keep serving CLD once OO dumps all of their E120's?
I've been wondering the same thing. I'm willing to bet that once CPAir starts flying, OO will upgrade to
a CRJ before all the Brasilias are retired, especially if they feel that there's competition from CPAir.
People could fly on CPAir to regional destinations nonstop, without connecting through LAX
(like Skywest does.)
FOKKERF28 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 151 posts, RR: 2 Reply 53, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7250 times:
Great looking paint job, cant wait to see it in the air.
Goldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5490 posts, RR: 13 Reply 54, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7189 times:
Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 52): People could fly on CPAir to regional destinations nonstop, without connecting through LAX
(like Skywest does.)
They could, yes, but there's a lot more at play than "Fly non-stop from point A to B.". People can still fly CLE-DTW-DEN instead of CLE-DEN non-stop simply to avoid flying on UA or WN, and to get miles on DL.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
F9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4745 posts, RR: 29 Reply 55, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7195 times:
Indeed! It looks like a very eye pleasing paint! I know its a while away, but is SEA still on the CP list of cities served?
RWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2220 posts, RR: 4 Reply 56, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6930 times:
Quoting F9animal (Reply 55): Indeed! It looks like a very eye pleasing paint! I know its a while away, but is SEA still on the CP list of cities served?
I heard both PDX and SEA were on the list after their initial startup, there seems to be some debate on if their EMB aircraft is capable of a route like CLD-SEA from the current runway length in CLD, then others seem to think it's possible given the US CLT-EYW with a similar aircraft. I hope to see their very sharp looking livery grace the Pacific Northwest skies. I think when it's raining up here CLD could be a great 3 day getaway with some ocean, instead of Palm Springs.
Next Flights: AS PDX-SAN-LIH on 739/738 in F, HA LIH-HNL-KOA-OGG on 717 in Y, AS OGG-PDX on 738 in F
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 57, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6924 times:
Quoting flycpair (Reply 28): As to the performance of the Embraer 170 from Carlsbad, a good example to look at is London City Airport (LCY.) The runway is similar in length to CLD and British Airways has 13 E-Jets based there.
Okay, for now, for arguments sake, let's accept this as the standard, as it does have some basis. If this standard changes, then okay..... but for now let's work with this.
Quoting F9animal (Reply 55): but is SEA still on the CP list of cities served?
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 56): I heard both PDX and SEA were on the list after their initial startup, there seems to be some debate on if their EMB aircraft is capable of a route like CLD-SEA from the current runway length in CLD, then others seem to think it's possible given the US CLT-EYW with a similar aircraft
I'm getting a bit confused with this all.
As I noted earlier.....
Quoting point2point (Reply 37): Hmmmm okay, the longest BA E170 flight from LCA is about 875 miles.
Now, from SAN (since this is pretty close to CLD), DEN is within this range at 856 miles. However, PDX is 934, SEA is 1052, DWF is 1168 and IAH is 1301 miles, all seemingly outside of the range. Airports such as ABQ and SLC would work, but the other are a bit far, yes?
PDX, and especially SEA, seem quite out of range for the E170 because of the length of the runway at CLD.
The US CLT-EYW is 738 miles, certainly less than the longest BA E179 route from LCA at 875 miles.
So how can PDX, and especially SEA, be candidates for this new start-up with the airfield and aircraft they are planning to use? Will there be some sort of restrictions, and if so, wouldn't that now start cutting deep into profitability, since there isn't that much to begin with on this bird?
As for DEN, it is just in range by about 19 miles or so. What concerns me with DEN wouldn't be the CLD-DEN segment, but more the DEN-CLD segment since this bird will have to take off from DEN (even with its 16,000 ft runway) and climb quite high quite quickly to get over the mountains, and then go into the headwinds for the trip to CLD. Now, this is at this point all hypothetical on a roundtrip CLD-DEN route, but would the E170 be able to make the DEN-CLD segment w/o restrictions?
And i still don't see how SEA is going to work....??
Goldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5490 posts, RR: 13 Reply 58, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6830 times:
There is more at play than just the length of the runway here.
LCY is fairly flat. CLD slopes up to the west.
The area LCY around is similarly flat. CLD has rising terrain immediately to the west that ends in a cliff.
LCY has no problems handling traffic in either direction. CLD favors west traffic, which means taking off up-hill, with a clearway that is ALSO rising.
I'm leaving out altitiude difference, as ~330 feet between the two is pretty marginal.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 59, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6862 times:
Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 58): There is more at play than just the length of the runway here.
LCY is fairly flat. CLD slopes up to the west.
The area LCY around is similarly flat. CLD has rising terrain immediately to the west that ends in a cliff.
LCY has no problems handling traffic in either direction. CLD favors west traffic, which means taking off up-hill, with a clearway that is ALSO rising.
I'm leaving out altitiude difference, as ~330 feet between the two is pretty marginal.
Oh... WOW!..... really good at making everything really even more confusing now, eh?
WWTRAVELER99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 267 posts, RR: 0 Reply 60, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6706 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 24): SNA must fund CBP to a tune of up to $2.8mil annually to have CBP available to screen up to 3 flights with no more than 150 passengers each between hours of 0800 and 1700.
How can these times be correct? Currently (as I am sure you know LAXintl) the times for departure are MEX - 10:07 and SJD - 12:16. The flights return at MEX - 16:12 and SJD - 17:42. Since the customs agents are not requried for the departures the availablity of the CBP must be flexible to accomadate the schedule.
Also at the figures you provided that comes to about $17 per passenger. This does not sound all that bad.
spiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 1 Reply 61, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6649 times:
The colorscheme looks great! Can't wait to see the finished product!
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6373 posts, RR: 34 Reply 62, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6545 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 57): What concerns me with DEN wouldn't be the CLD-DEN segment, but more the DEN-CLD segment since this bird will have to take off from DEN (even with its 16,000 ft runway) and climb quite high quite quickly to get over the mountains, and then go into the headwinds for the trip to CLD.
I doubt range for the DEN-CLD sector is much of a concern; the E170 operates DEN-CMH which is 1,154 miles. The E170 won't need anything approaching a full load of fuel to reach CLD from DEN.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 63, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6519 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 62): I doubt range for the DEN-CLD sector is much of a concern; the E170 operates DEN-CMH which is 1,154 miles. The E170 won't need anything approaching a full load of fuel to reach CLD from DEN.
Yes, you are correct...... forgot to put my thinking cap on, eh? Duh me.......
At any rate, even with the shorter runways at CLD, I would think that the CLD-DEN segment would work as well, since it's with wind, and just a few miles shorter than the longest BA E170 out of LCY. However, I still question how PDX, and especially SEA are on the future destinations list, since SAN-SEA is about 1050 miles, about 175 miles further than the longest BA E170 out of LCY, will work with the roughly 4900 ft runway at CLD?
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4746 posts, RR: 15 Reply 64, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6393 times:
I think a lot of people are getting WAY ahead of themselves here. Let's get this operation off the ground first, give them a while to work out the kinks, get their initial (announced) routes up and running for a while, see how the nimbys react to regularly scheduled jets flying over their schools and houses, THEN we can start planning the rest of their route map for them!
Per the CP Air website, at the bottom of the home page, listed are OAK, SMF, SJC, PHX, LAS and SJD. Period. I recall nothing about PDX or SEA; perhaps in one interview with Mr. Vallas, once upon a time, something about DEN and a couple of other cities was mentioned but that was long range talk, and not mentioned frequently.
Maybe they would eventually consider flying tag-ons beyond the Bay Area, and LAS/PHX to other cities -- like SEA or DEN -- but I personally think it is a VERY future possibility at best. It seems that any of these longer routes are really pushing things in every way possible.
Looking forward to what this Saturday reveals! Bring it on CP Air!
N202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1550 posts, RR: 4 Reply 65, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6340 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 64): I think a lot of people are getting WAY ahead of themselves here. Let's get this operation off the ground first, give them a while to work out the kinks, get their initial (announced) routes up and running for a while, see how the nimbys react to regularly scheduled jets flying over their schools and houses, THEN we can start planning the rest of their route map for them!
Given that part of what people DO on A.net is speculate about the future of airlines, I don't see why CP would be any different!
In that spirit...anyone think that a hub at OAK would work? It'd allowing CP to reach places like PDX/SEA and could offer room for the carrier to expand (much more than CLD would).
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6373 posts, RR: 34 Reply 66, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6304 times:
Quoting N202PA (Reply 65): In that spirit...anyone think that a hub at OAK would work? It'd allowing CP to reach places like PDX/SEA and could offer room for the carrier to expand
How would they compete against WN's existing large operation at OAK with a higher-cost aircraft and less brand awareness -- not to mention AS's flights to PDX & SEA as well? And that ignores UA, AS, & VX flights to PDX from SFO, plus WN & AS at SJC.
N202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1550 posts, RR: 4 Reply 67, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6248 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 66): How would they compete against WN's existing large operation at OAK with a higher-cost aircraft and less brand awareness -- not to mention AS's flights to PDX & SEA as well? And that ignores UA, AS, & VX flights to PDX from SFO, plus WN & AS at SJC.
Good points, but that could be said about just about ANY destination they choose on the west coast. WN is a 600-lb gorilla, no question, and AS in the other corner as well.
Maybe one way to compete would be to offer a Porter-style service where people can be picked up in downtown SF and OAK and be bussed directly to the OAK terminal? Or what about some sort of water shuttle service to the terminal?
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1964 posts, RR: 1 Reply 68, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6250 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 64): I think a lot of people are getting WAY ahead of themselves here. Let's get this operation off the ground first, give them a while to work out the kinks, get their initial (announced) routes up and running for a while, see how the nimbys react to regularly scheduled jets flying over their schools and houses, THEN we can start planning the rest of their route map for them!
lol....... good point.....
Quoting SANFan (Reply 64): Looking forward to what this Saturday reveals! Bring it on CP Air!
Yes, I think that that far into the future we are allowed to venture....... and I'll venture that it's going to be a kool looking bird.
C767P From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 863 posts, RR: 2 Reply 69, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6222 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 41): Off topic but where is a good spotting location in CLD?
There is nothing great around CRQ. The best bet is at the terminal/restaurant. It does not provide the best view of the runway but there is a good view of the ramp.
Quoting united319 (Reply 47): On a side note, will UA keep serving CLD once OO dumps all of their E120's?
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6373 posts, RR: 34 Reply 70, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5871 times:
Quoting N202PA (Reply 67): that could be said about just about ANY destination they choose on the west coast. WN is a 600-lb gorilla, no question, and AS in the other corner as well.
California Pacific identified a niche at CLD which is unserved and which they think is large enough to support an airline. What is the unserved niche they'd find at OAK?
ridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 928 posts, RR: 1 Reply 71, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5716 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 64): Per the CP Air website, at the bottom of the home page, listed are OAK, SMF, SJC, PHX, LAS and SJD. Period. I recall nothing about PDX or SEA; perhaps in one interview with Mr. Vallas, once upon a time, something about DEN and a couple of other cities was mentioned but that was long range talk, and not mentioned frequently.
Maybe they would eventually consider flying tag-ons beyond the Bay Area, and LAS/PHX to other cities -- like SEA or DEN -- but I personally think it is a VERY future possibility at best. It seems that any of these longer routes are really pushing things in every way possible.
Looking forward to what this Saturday reveals! Bring it on CP Air!
In an interview with Carlsbad Magazine, Vallas himself mentions Kansas City, Salt Lake City, and Houston.
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4746 posts, RR: 15 Reply 72, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5603 times:
Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 71): In an interview with Carlsbad Magazine, Vallas himself mentions Kansas City, Salt Lake City, and Houston
Ah yes, those were the cities he mentioned in a single interview done back in 2010 I believe. (All cities to the east of CLD, nothing to the north.) The exact quote:
Quote: “Within five years we’ll end up with nine or 10 aircraft and maybe go east as far as Kansas City, Salt Lake City and Houston.”
I still stand by my statement. In this instance, we're still talking a ways down the road... for an airline that's not flown a revenue passenger yet!
ridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 928 posts, RR: 1 Reply 73, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5555 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 72): still stand by my statement. In this instance, we're still talking a ways down the road... for an airline that's not flown a revenue passenger yet!
Would have to agree with you, although I do believe it will be less than 18 months after they get airborne, and Cal Pacific will be an express or connection carrier for someone else, and Carlsbad will be a spoke on their hub.
doug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3167 posts, RR: 4 Reply 74, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5403 times:
Quoting N202PA (Reply 65): In that spirit...anyone think that a hub at OAK would work? It'd allowing CP to reach places like PDX/SEA and could offer room for the carrier to expand (much more than CLD would).
head to head with WN on an E170? I think CPA's ability to operate out of CLD and tap that market is the best way foreward with the current fleet plan. Some 190/5s could certainly change that.
N202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1550 posts, RR: 4 Reply 75, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5192 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 70): What is the unserved niche they'd find at OAK?
Business passengers who want to travel to regional destinations with less hassle than flying on the legacy carriers and better service than on Southwest/Alaska.
Regardless of whether OAK would work out or not, the niche at CLD is a nice place to start, but given the small terminal and short runway, CP will quickly find themselves maxed out there. There's got to be a long-term plan that involves something else than CLD if CP is to thrive.
Wingtips56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 217 posts, RR: 0 Reply 76, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4892 times:
Two photos of the California Pacific Airlines E170 appeared in FlightAware this morning, though they don't come up in a search now. One was on rotation and the other on climb-out at BNA.
It looks very good, although I thought the titles were a little faded looking....they might want to make the name stand out a bit more. You can see it if you do an activity search on aircraft N176EC and find the thumbnail.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines
Wingtips56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 217 posts, RR: 0 Reply 78, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4893 times:
That's the one. There is another of it airborne. I didn't know how to post it in here, and didn't want to get hung up with copyright issues. I guess I could have done the link, though.
Thanks.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4746 posts, RR: 15 Reply 80, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4764 times:
Ooo, I like it! Ed must feel like a proud papa right about now -- handing out cigars maybe?
Should be a great day at CLD tomorrow! Who plans on being there with a camera????
flycpair From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 18 posts, RR: 2 Reply 81, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4716 times:
Unfortunately the plane won't be coming back Saturday morning. Acquisition will be finalized on Monday from Embraer and the current plan is to fly it back to Carlsbad Friday morning, July 6th around 10AM, subject to regulatory approvals. I'll be sure to give a heads up when that plan firms.
It looks very good, although I thought the titles were a little faded looking....they might want to make the name stand out a bit more. You can see it if you do an activity search on aircraft N176EC and find the thumbnail.
They stand out when you see it in real life. Might have had to do with the lighting and haze....plus it was around 110 degs in BNA
[Edited 2012-06-29 18:25:43]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
spiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 1 Reply 84, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4431 times:
For those who (like me) could not get the flightaware pic, here is the pic from their facebook page.
RWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2220 posts, RR: 4 Reply 85, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4179 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 70): California Pacific identified a niche at CLD which is unserved and which they think is large enough to support an airline. What is the unserved niche they'd find at OAK?
Well put, if CP can't provide a non-stop from CLD why would they want to compete in a saturated market, when they have a great niche market they are trying to get up and profitable. SMF would be a better option if they were to do that kind of thing, but I doubt they will do anything like that at all.
Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 73):
Would have to agree with you, although I do believe it will be less than 18 months after they get airborne, and Cal Pacific will be an express or connection carrier for someone else, and Carlsbad will be a spoke on their hub.
I sure hope you are not right, it's always great to cheer on an underdog airline and see it thrive in time, AS & HA come to mind, not that CP will be those carriers, they will offer a different experience than the usual suspects flying the west coast.
Next Flights: AS PDX-SAN-LIH on 739/738 in F, HA LIH-HNL-KOA-OGG on 717 in Y, AS OGG-PDX on 738 in F
N202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1550 posts, RR: 4 Reply 90, posted (11 months 3 weeks ago) and read 2937 times:
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 85): Well put, if CP can't provide a non-stop from CLD why would they want to compete in a saturated market, when they have a great niche market they are trying to get up and profitable. SMF would be a better option if they were to do that kind of thing, but I doubt they will do anything like that at all.
Is it truly a saturated market if few of the current players offer the same kind of product CP can survive?
Also, niche markets can only go so far. That's practically the definition of the term "niche"!
Not saying that they will need to do OAK or any specific other market, but CLD really only has a limited number of opportunities before it's maxed out. That is unless they're planning on knocking down hangars and expanding the terminal/runway. But even then, opportunity for growth may be limited without adding another fleet type.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11252 posts, RR: 63 Reply 92, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2124 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 5): The E170 is not a good short-field airplane.
I don't know where you get that idea from - it is an insanely good short field performer, so is the 190.
Quoting flycpair (Reply 28): As to the performance of the Embraer 170 from Carlsbad, a good example to look at is London City Airport (LCY.) The runway is similar in length to CLD and British Airways has 13 E-Jets based there.
But it's worth realising that, thanks to regulations, aircraft taking off from LCY are only allowed to calculate their take off performance on 1,199m of the 1,508m runway. CLD has what, a 1,400m declared runway - that's quite a lot more.
Quoting point2point (Reply 37): Hmmmm okay, the longest BA E170 flight from LCA is about 875 miles.
1,075 miles, LCY-FAO. May not be scheduled for an E-170, but they mix and match depending on loads.
Quoting N202PA (Reply 39): 1.) Are any of those BA 170 flights capacity/weight restricted?
I very much doubt it for most, perhaps the very longest routes on a hot day with a full load. To give you an idea, I recently flew LCY-MAH - 829 miles. OK the load was quite light, but we used just 750m of runway to depart. The E-170 is a rocket-ship, and they've just been upgraded to fly 25 degree departures too.
Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 58): There is more at play than just the length of the runway here.
Indeed, when comparing to other airports declared distances etc... change the picture considerably.
Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 58): The area LCY around is similarly flat. CLD has rising terrain immediately to the west that ends in a cliff.
The land is flat near to LCY, but the built environment is not. There are obstacles at both ends of the runway there and on all sides.
Main thing to remember is, Embraer will have almost certainly carried out a detailed performance analysis of the 170 on all potential routes CP Air are interested in when they were evaluating types. So yes, I think it's a pretty safe bet to say the type can fly them.
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