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Business Class Competition On JFK-LAX/SFO?  
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 897 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6469 times:
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United's PS Business is all Lie-Flat seating with supposely top notch food..

Delta's Business Elite is also suppose to be really nice as well, but I assume not as nice as United's all Lie-flat.

What about American? what type of Business class service do they offer on JFK-LAX/SFO? Is it comparable to DL and UA's

AA has a large presence on these routes, (9) 767-200 flights between JFK-LAX and (5) 767 flights between JFK-SFO

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2356 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6346 times:

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
United's PS Business is all Lie-Flat seating with supposely top notch food..

p.s. Business is not all lie-flat seating, yet. Conversions will start this fall to the s-CO BusinessFirst flat bed seat with AVOD and power. Currently, there are angled-flat seats in United First and traditional recliners (with footrests) in Business.

The food is passable. It's the best that UA offers in the domestic market, but I wouldn't call it top notch by any stretch.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
Delta's Business Elite is also suppose to be really nice as well, but I assume not as nice as United's all Lie-flat.

I think Delta has the nicest business class transcon product at the moment, but UA will soon surpass them with the flat seat. Delta has an electric recliner seat with footrests. I think their food is the best among AA/DL/UA/VX. The only drawback is the small 16J cabin on the 757. When DL first rolled out the product, it was a relatively easy upgrade as a PM but things have certainly changed. I think they could use more seats in the cabin to accommodate the large paid J and full-fare Y crowd on these routes, although DL does not attract those customers in the same numbers as UA/AA in those markets.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
What about American? what type of Business class service do they offer on JFK-LAX/SFO? Is it comparable to DL and UA's

American's soft product is comparable to UA p.s. Business. The seats are recliners with less legroom and width than DL/UA. The 2-2-2 configuration on the 767 is a bit cozy.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6068 times:

Trust me, it's very hard to get a front seat on DL's JFK-LAX/SFO flights as a non-rev. I've been trying since the service started and could never get on until just last month. Managd to grab the last open seat on the 9pm departure to LAX. The hard product is just okay. Small PTV screen but the seats are comfortable. There's a massage option and lumbar support adjustment. Food was excellent and is on par with what they offer across the Atlantic but not quite there.

All in all it was a very comfortable flight.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5690 times:

Quoting LAX+and+%285%29+767+flights+between+JFK-SFO" class="quote" target="_blank">g500,reply=0AA has a large presence on these routes, (9) 767-200 flights between JFK-LAX and (5) 767 flights between JFK-SFO:

LAX yes but ever since the UA/CO merger they have entirely dominated NYC-SFO, In terms of frequency, total seats, and number of premium seats


User currently offlinegabrielz From United States of America, joined May 2004, 69 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5608 times:

Since the merger UA dominates both markets.

Peak weekdays, UA operates nonstop

15x NYC-LAX - 757premium, 752, 738
19x NYC-SFO - 757premium, 752, 738, 753

But biz/first offerings vary widely.

-G


User currently onlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3177 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5267 times:

EWR-SFO and LAX are hub to hub for UA.

UA has seen no increase on the Flagship JFK-LAX/SFO markets though.

What you are continuing to see in the transcon market (Specifically LAX and SFO) is a growing LCC presence which undermines the whole legacy model in the market. There will always be F and J customers, but AA, DL, and UA have to compete with a better coach product and likely low ticket price of VX and B6 for the entire back of the plane.

Hence, UA is really using a low density aircraft.

You also see an increasing presence of DL. A slow but steady growth in frequency and J product in these markets


User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1411 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5128 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 5):
You also see an increasing presence of DL. A slow but steady growth in frequency and J product in these markets

I would assume this trend to continue for a while.
As DL's presence at LGA grows and solidifies, premium demand from JFK-LAX/SFO should grow as well.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinesq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1628 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5010 times:

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 1):
The food is passable. It's the best that UA offers in the domestic market, but I wouldn't call it top notch by any stretch.

I'd say since they pretty much combined F and J catering (main dishes and starters at least - I believe F gets a bigger/better salad course) I think the catering for J has improved and is pretty much on par with international J. But I agree it's not "top notch" by international standards, but by North American standards I'd say its up there.



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User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24326 posts, RR: 47
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4714 times:

As Wall Street Journal story, UA's p.s. has been a total "home run" for the airline.
United P.s - "Home Run In All Perspectives" (by LAXintl Jul 29 2008 in Civil Aviation)

Its performance to-date continues to lead its peers, while folks like Delta continues to be a laggard as they have been for most of the last decade.

RASM Yield for last 12-mos

JFK-LAX
UA - 12.16
AA - 11.92
VX - 11.37
DL - 9.67
B6 - 8.77


JFK-SFO
UA - 12.70
AA - 10.32
VX - 10.06
DL - 9.34
B6 - 8.27



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6485 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4672 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Its performance to-date continues to lead its peers, while folks like Delta continues to be a laggard as they have been for most of the last decade.

However, you also have to consider the CASM on these planes. UA's PS planes a have brutally high CASM. While PS may have been a home run in 2008, it's economics have declined. Hence why UA is reconfiguring the planes and stuffing more seats back in.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24326 posts, RR: 47
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4636 times:

There is a wide and positive RASM/CASM margin on p.s. - and CASM is not "brutally high" - the 757 is an extremely efficient aircraft unlike for example the AA 762 fleet.

The p.s. reconfig was due regardless, as p.s. is getting close to celebrating its 10-year anniversary. When the new IPTE was rolled out, it was publicly stated that the seats could likely make it over to p.s. eventually. The elimination of F-class and swap to C class product has to do with the new Hollywood talent contracts signed which no longer require F class travel.

Oh and fuel spiked in 2008 -- remember the $145/bbl? Its quite more manageable today.

[Edited 2012-06-19 12:16:35]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4588 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
The p.s. reconfig was due regardless, as p.s. is getting close to celeb-ratings its 10-year anniversary. When the new IPTE was rolled out, it was publicly stated that the seats could likely make it over to p.s. eventually. The elimination of F-class and swap to C class product has to do with the new Hollywood talent contracts signed which no longer require F class travel.

So in the future, those hollywood types could either fly AA's first class that's a reclining lounger, or UA's "business class" that's a true flat bed


User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3945 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4498 times:
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Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
United's PS Business is all Lie-Flat seating with supposely top notch food..

Delta's Business Elite is also suppose to be really nice as well, but I assume not as nice as United's all Lie-flat.

What about American? what type of Business class service do they offer on JFK-LAX/SFO? Is it comparable to DL and UA's

AA has a large presence on these routes, (9) 767-200 flights between JFK-LAX and (5) 767 flights between JFK-SFO


DL has really done a nice job upgrading their soft product. As far as I'm concerned, the catering they offer in BizElite is the best out their in the transcon market. They even give amenity kits. In Y, they now offer a great BOB salad and other items you can order online which is better than the typical BOB menu.
I do believe it's next to impossible to get a upgrade to J in the JFK-LAX/SFO market on DL now. Many are paying for the seats in J.


User currently offlineklkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 904 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
RASM Yield for last 12-mos

JFK-LAX
UA - 12.16
AA - 11.92
VX - 11.37
DL - 9.67
B6 - 8.77


JFK-SFO
UA - 12.70
AA - 10.32
VX - 10.06
DL - 9.34
B6 - 8.27

While factually what you are saying is true it's misleading in this context because DL has a much higher percentage of coach seats in their configuration as does B6 so naturally their RASM would be lower. Personally I think VX's results are more impressive in this contect than UA or AA.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 12):
I do believe it's next to impossible to get a upgrade to J in the JFK-LAX/SFO market on DL now. Many are paying for the seats in J.

Even as a Diamond I haven't been able to get this upgrade lately. Yield up front must be great and they've added some flights so they must be happy with the progress they have made on these routes.


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1446 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2871 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
There is a wide and positive RASM/CASM margin on p.s. - and CASM is not "brutally high" - the 757 is an extremely efficient aircraft unlike for example the AA 762 fleet.

Not when the 757 has only 110(12+26+72) seats on it. "Efficient" is a function of how much capacity is on the plane and how much can be sold. A 180-190 seat 757 is efficient. The CASM on the PS 757 is indeed very high, but the revenue premium UA has gotten with PS appears to have increased RASM more than CASM. I would be a 110 seat 757 and 160 seat 767-200 are close in CASM.

Quoting klkla (Reply 13):
While factually what you are saying is true it's misleading in this context because DL has a much higher percentage of coach seats in their configuration as does B6 so naturally their RASM would be lower. Personally I think VX's results are more impressive in this contect than UA or AA.

Good point. VX has only 8 premium seats. Probably on JFK-LAX/SFO on VX there is no upgrading possible. All J class seats are paid for.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24326 posts, RR: 47
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2532 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 14):
Not when the 757 has only 110(12+26+72) seats on it. "Efficient" is a function of how much capacity is on the plane and how much can be sold. A 180-190 seat 757 is efficient. The CASM on the PS 757 is indeed very high, but the revenue premium UA has gotten with PS appears to have increased RASM more than CASM. I would be a 110 seat 757 and 160 seat 767-200 are close in CASM.


Except the fact that UA p.s. 757 stage lengths are much longer than the rest of the pmUA fleet, and as result the CASM when adjusted is quite favorable even while having mere 110 seats. Also things like fuel burn are a bit lower since its only carry 2/3 of the traditional payload weight.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6485 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2410 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Except the fact that UA p.s. 757 stage lengths are much longer than the rest of the pmUA fleet, and as result the CASM when adjusted is quite favorable even while having mere 110 seats. Also things like fuel burn are a bit lower since its only carry 2/3 of the traditional payload weight.

All true, but it doesn't change the fact that UA is stuffing more seats back into the PS 757's.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24326 posts, RR: 47
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2403 times:

Well off course - they are getting rid of F-class.
The Hollywood requirement is no longer there, while other sectors such as finance have clamped down on such travel perks.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2356 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2379 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 14):
I would be a 110 seat 757 and 160 seat 767-200 are close in CASM.


I'd be blown away by this, depending on your definition of "close". A 160-seat 767 configuration is pretty rich, too.


User currently offlinesq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1628 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2327 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 14):
Good point. VX has only 8 premium seats. Probably on JFK-LAX/SFO on VX there is no upgrading possible. All J class seats are paid for.

Though not an upgrade in the strictest sense, I've paid for upgrades at the airport - it cost me $160 which is definitely not the price difference between Main Cabin Select and F at time of booking.

During their system upgrade and all the snags their website was facing, I upgraded to F and somehow got a ton of miles credited to me - details are hazy at this point but I paid for an upgrade but was reimbursed money instead or something like this. In the end they had to debit the miles back out of my account (fine by me, I wasn't entitled to them anyway) but as a courtesy for the inconvenience upgraded me to F anyway.

It was service like this in the middle of their system upgrade sh*t show that made me start to fly VX within the US a lot more. The agent was fantastic and the on board service, while not as extensive as PS was great - the quality of meals were better than UA, AA and DL, just that the quantity was a bit less. Incidentally, the cabin crew working F was very interested in joining EK - so we had a lot to talk about inflight.



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