rotating14 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 374 posts, RR: 0 Posted (11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 16396 times:
Hey folks,
I just read where ANA has opted to swap a number of their 787-8's for 787-9's. The frames that in question were to be delivered next year. The link below provides more insight to this. They must think that the -9 is a better fit for their long haul operation.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26686 posts, RR: 83 Reply 3, posted (11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 16381 times:
Yes, NH made a partial switch of 15 frames a couple of years back and at least some of those planes will be used as direct replacements for their domestic 777-200 fleet as the 787-9 and 777-200 have effectively the same cabin length.
Looks like they're going to use them to start replacing their international 777-200 fleet, as well.
CHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 63 Reply 5, posted (11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 16000 times:
Quoting rotating14 (Reply 4): Quote:
Looks like they're going to use them to start replacing their international 777-200 fleet, as well.
How old are those T7-200's?
I believe they took delivery of a couple more PW4090 772ERs very recently.
Their international 772ERs are not in need of replacement. Their 772A and 773As will go first, I'd have thought. Got to be getting up there on cycles, been hammered to death.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
Someone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 2778 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (11 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15538 times:
Quote: ANA said it has switched an order for four 787-8 aircraft, which were to be delivered beginning in 2013, to an order for four of Boeing's larger version of the Dreamliner, the 787-9.
This also implies deferring 4 787-8s to whenever the -9s kan be delivered
sunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 3948 posts, RR: 4 Reply 11, posted (11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 15051 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 3): Looks like they're going to use them to start replacing their international 777-200 fleet, as well.
ANA has 217 and 306 seat versions of the 77E . Proportionally they could supplement their 158-seat 788's with something like 204 seat 789's. This might be the attraction .
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26686 posts, RR: 83 Reply 13, posted (11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14862 times:
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 9): I think it's more an implication that NH don't want those very early frames based on performance?
They've taken the three worst frames around - LN7, LN8 and LN9 - so I see this more as a combination of NH starting to grow international and needing larger frames and also accepting that Boeing will not have the other frames (LN11-14) ready before they could get new-build 787-9s. And for Boeing, they have customers willing to wait for those frames.
So while it's not true serendipity, NH and Boeing are both making lemonade out of lemons.
sunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 3948 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14597 times:
The 789 at about 126t OEW should be good for about 41t payload based on a HND-FRA scheduled time of 12hr 10min. Fuel burn would be about 71t. Its cargo space permits a good payload with the premium cabin layout that ANA use on many of their international routes.
ebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 14349 times:
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 15): In an other thread not so long ago, there was discussed that ANA was sooo happy with the 788.....oh well....
I don't see anything in this thread that suggests ANA isn't happy with the -8. As has been suggested earlier in this thread, they need more of the -9s. They're still taking a goodly number of the -8s.
KDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 155 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 13820 times:
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 5): Their international 772ERs are not in need of replacement. Their 772A and 773As will go first, I'd have thought. Got to be getting up there on cycles, been hammered to death.
Maximum utilization for maximum profit, one could presume.
I believe Gigneil and Stitch predicted some time ago that the -9 would end up being the prefered bird for such use.
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4952 posts, RR: 15 Reply 19, posted (11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 12771 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 7): LN11, LN12, LN13, LN14 and LN18 are all in long-term storage, so I could see the first four being released back to Boeing for re-assignment.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26686 posts, RR: 83 Reply 23, posted (11 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 11606 times:
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 22): Hmm? Where did this rumor come from? First I've heard of it.
Batik Air, the long-haul subsidiary of Lion Air, placed an order for five 787-8s and it has been reported that they will come from the LN10-LN19 block currently parked at PAE. The order was firmed last week and reported on Boeing's O&D page, attributed to Lion Air.
About 3/4 in size, so far away. Near to the 777-200ER, but still slightly smaller, but if you put 9 abreast in the 789 you can get the same number of pax with lower comfort and much lower CASM.
NH's 77Ws are configured in a 215-seat and 262-seat configurations (will be reduced to 212 and 250 seats respectively with the imminent introduction of premium economy).
The 77W is significantly larger in terms of cabin area, but if NH adopts a higher density set-up on the 787-9 it could easily be fitted with 215 seats or more, although given their preference for low density configurations on its long haul aircraft, I believe that is unlikely to happen.
Range wise, the 787-9 has the 77W beat. While the 77W's maximum range is 7930nm, the 787-9 can fly between 8000 and 8500nm.
The 787-9 seems to be the natural replacement for the 777-200ER as it is more or less the same size, but it isn't quite big enough to replace the 777-300ER.
sunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 3948 posts, RR: 4 Reply 30, posted (11 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5090 times:
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 29): Range wise, the 787-9 has the 77W beat. While the 77W's maximum range is 7930nm, the 787-9 can fly between 8000 and 8500nm
To get over 8000nm with the standard 285 seat configuration the OEW has to be about 120t. This seems unlikely at EIS. The usual ratio of MTOW/OEW of ~.5 suggests an OEW of ~125t which would put it at ~ 7600nm.
KDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 155 posts, RR: 0 Reply 31, posted (11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3659 times:
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 24): Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):Batik Air, the long-haul subsidiary of Lion Air, placed an order for five 787-8s
Thanks! I saw that part...
Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):and it has been reported that they will come from the LN10-LN19 block currently parked at PAE
...but not that part.
An interesting development.
Indeed. I wonder how many early frames are likely to run into this scenario? Have any other carriers rejected the earlier frames who have been picked up by another carrier?
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10652 posts, RR: 100 Reply 33, posted (11 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2765 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 13): They've taken the three worst frames around - LN7, LN8 and LN9
Sorry to nitpick, but ANA was offered the prototypes that Boeing later put on their books. So not quite the worst of the 787s. But close.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 13): and needing larger frames and also accepting that Boeing will not have the other frames (LN11-14) ready before they could get new-build 787-9s.
I suspect this is the prime reason for the switch. My thoughts are:
1. Once 789s are available, why take the 788? That is analogous to taking 762ERs when 763ERs are available. We all know how the resale game played out there...
2. Guage has some to do with it. I suspect resale value also played a role.
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 25): And may have said "no mas" and negotiated to reject frames in the teens.
Its all a question of price too. I'm sure ANA made a low ball offer. It is not surprising another customer might be willing to pay more. That is just business. Boeing is going to negotiate to maximize revenue and profit.
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