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USA To Africa On US Flagged Carriers  
User currently offlineIAHworldflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 264 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5989 times:

I remember about 3 or 4 years ago, Delta had big plans to serve several destinations in Africa from the US. If I'm not mistaken, most of those services never commenced. I recently read that DL will be suspending their ATL-ACC service later this year, and that UA will be suspending their IAD-ACC service this summer as well. It seems the only US flagged services to the African continent will be DL service to DKR, JNB, and LOS, and UA's service to LOS. I assume DL's 2x weekly service to ROB will be ending as well, since it is a tag on from ACC?
Two questions, why has it been so difficult for any US carriers to establish profitable routes to Africa, and second, do you see any prospects for new nonstop service in the next year or two?

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5904 times:

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Thread starter):
why has it been so difficult for any US carriers to establish profitable routes to Africa,

High costs and low yields, there are a few exceptions though like IAH-LOS that is supported almost entirely on business (energy) traffic.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineHVNandrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5867 times:

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Thread starter):
It seems the only US flagged services to the African continent will be DL service to DKR, JNB, and LOS, and UA's service to LOS. I assume DL's 2x weekly service to ROB will be ending as well, since it is a tag on from ACC?

DL will still serve ACC from JFK. The flight becomes daily when the (I believe 2x weekly) frequencies are shifted from ATL to JFK. I don't know if/how that effects the ROB tag.


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4977 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5729 times:
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DL will continue to serve ACC, ROB, and ABV even after ATL-ACC ends. Total of 6 destinations in Africa.

JFK-ACC will go to 5x weekly this winter from the current 4x weekly, and will be daily by next summer.

ROB has gone from 1x weekly to 3x weekly (and DL has local traffic rights between ACC and ROB); ABV is served 2x weekly as a tag from ACC. The JFK-ACC 5x weekly flight will continue to ROB (3x) and ABV (2x)...

[Edited 2012-06-19 15:39:31]

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8513 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5686 times:
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Why is South Africa served so poorly ? AA should fly there from Miami. United should fly from either Neark or Washington.

User currently onlinedeltacto From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5649 times:

Quoting HVNandrew (Reply 2):
DL will still serve ACC from JFK. The flight becomes daily when the (I believe 2x weekly) frequencies are shifted from ATL to JFK. I don't know if/how that effects the ROB tag.
Quoting panamair (Reply 3):
JFK-ACC will be 5x weekly this winter (after ATL-ACC is suspended), and will become daily next summer.

According to the online timetable:
JFK-ACC will operate Mon, Wed, Thu, Fri, Sat
JFK-ACC-ROB will operate Wed, Thu, Sat


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4977 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5632 times:
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Quoting deltacto (Reply 5):
According to the online timetable:
JFK-ACC will operate Mon, Wed, Thu, Fri, Sat
JFK-ACC-ROB will operate Wed, Thu, Sat

The other two days, JFK-ACC will continue to ABV.


User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1010 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5623 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Why is South Africa served so poorly ? SA)">AA should fly there from Miami. United should fly from either Neark or Washington.

SA still offers service from JFK/IAD to JNB. No need for UA to put more capacity in the market if its partner flies from basically the same cities.


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6631 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5449 times:

Correct me if I am wrong, but besides UA &DL, the only other US carriers to fly to Africa were:

Pan Am
TWA
USAfrica

is that it???



I feel woozy....what did you put in that Pudding Pop?
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8513 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5391 times:
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Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 8):
Correct me if I am wrong, but besides UA &DL, the only other US carriers to fly to Africa were:

Pan Am
TWA
USAfrica

TWA did fly briefly to Nairobi in the early 1970's, its most long served city was Cairo. US Africa flew to South Africa with 2 leased AA MD-11's.

PAN AM did fly to Nairobi until it sold the European routes to Delta. It flew to west Africa to Dakar, Abidijan, Lagos and South Africa. JNB was stopped in the early 1980's when the US placed sanctions aginst that country. Lagos and the french colonies were stopped in 1986. One of the most interesting routes PA had was flying across Africa from Lagos to Nairobi.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3461 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5262 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Why is South Africa served so poorly ? SA)">AA should fly there from Miami. United should fly from either Neark or Washington

South Africa is pretty finite market. SSA)">AA has served the US since the late 60's, except for the apartheid years when they were banned, and flew to Europe around the horn of Africa. I think one US and one SA carrier in the market can cover the current demand. SA)">AA should have jumped in from MIA a while back, (I won't get that subject going about SA)">AA's past decisions) and was stated above, there is no reason for UA to jump into S. Africa with both SA & LH serving S.A.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 8):
Pan Am
TWA
USAfrica

That is what I can remember as well, off the top of my head.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5184 times:

Yields are not as strong
These markets take time to develop
Capacity/Frequencies would have to be adjusted
Security concerns
Long and tedious visa processes
Many of these destinations are well served with a stopover in Europe...



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5155 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 8):
Correct me if I am wrong, but besides UA &DL, the only other US carriers to fly to Africa were:

Pan Am
TWA
USAfrica

TWA did fly briefly to Nairobi in the early 1970's, its most long served city was Cairo.

TWA started service to Nairobi, Entebbe and Dar es Salaam around 1968. I think it lasted until about 1974 or 1975, probably about the time they ended 707 service on transatlantic routes. At the end I think it was only NBO as EBB and DAR had been dropped at some point. It was also only once a week, maybe twice at the most.

A 1968 timetable, soon after service started, shows only one 707 a week. Eastbound it operated JFK-ATH-EBB-NBO-DAR, and westbound DAR-EBB-NBO-ATH-JFK.

Other points in Africa served by TWA at various times, apart from Cairo, were Casablanca, Algiers, Tunis and Tripoli. Some, like Casablanca, didn't last very long.


User currently offlineBNAOWB From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4578 times:

Considering the demand for the 3-weekly nonstop IAH-LAD Sonair charter which has been operated for many years, is there a remote possibility for any of the following to occur in the near future?:

United: IAH-LOS-LAD

United / South African: IAH-LAD-JNB

TAAG: IAH-LAD


User currently offlinetsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 632 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4478 times:

CO had flights to JNB operated by leased World Airways MD-11's in the early 90's...I believe they also went to CAI at that time under the same set up...didn't last very long however...

User currently online2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2707 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4305 times:

Under the current US-Brazil and US-South Africa bilaterals, Could SA)">AA tag.on JNB to MIA-REC or MIA-SSA?

Quoting BNAOWB (Reply 13):
United: IAH-LOS-LAD

United / South African: IAH-LAD-JNB

I'd doubt Angola would grant 5th freedom between LOS/JNB and LAD.
Also, not sure if both Brazil and Angola would allow SA)">UA to tag-on to LAD from a Brazilian airport.

SA)">UA to tag-on JNB from GIG w/SA code-share may look interesting as long as SA doesn't operate that route, same possible for GRU-CPT (if GRU slots are available).

For a U.S. airline big in BOS, BOS-Cape Verde (SID/RAI) may look interesting, but it's mostly a VFR route.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8513 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4286 times:
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While the market between the USA and South Africa is limited it only has 3 flights daily, 2 SAA & 1 Delta. Lots goes over Europe with all those flights between JNB and LHR, CDG, AMS. FRA, ZRH and MUC. SA)">DL made ATL to JNB work when No US airline had flown to SA in 20 years, ok they have all the Atlanta feed too. There has to be an oportunity for something like Miami to JNB, it would be a natural etension for AA as by now as they have developed almost all oportunities to Latin America.

User currently offlineIAHworldflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4247 times:

Thanks for the replies. I didn't realize that DL was keeping the ACC station open with service to JFK. It seems most business that gets done in West Africa ( besides Nigerian oil industry) is covered by Europeans, especially with their former colonizers in France and the UK. I guess what little business traffic there is from the US to West Africa is happy enough to take a European connection.
It would not surprise me to see TAAG think about doing LAD-IAH to capture some energy business revenue. Instead of a tag on from LOS, maybe a stop in Gabon could work well and capture some oil traffic to there as well.
I guess no one sees much potential for JFK to North Africa routes, such as Tripoli, Casablanca, or Tunis in the near term?


User currently offlinetraindoc From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2732 times:

If you want to understand the dearth of US/Africa service, just land at LHR, CDG, AMS at dawn. Immigration gets over run by all the VFR traffic from Africa. VFR traffic does not keep planes in the sky (except maybe FR) as the front cabin is where the profit is.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26169 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2632 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 8):
Correct me if I am wrong, but besides UA &DL, the only other US carriers to fly to Africa were:

Pan Am
TWA
USAfrica

is that it???

North American Airlines with 767s to Accra and Lagos.

World Airways most recently with the Houston Express oil flights, and back during sked service days to Dakar, Sal and Johannesburg with MD-11s.

And today Atlas Air runs the Houston Express oil flights to Angola on 744s.



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