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ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker  
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2252 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 22139 times:

See http://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing...immable-windows-not-060313644.html .

Excerpt: "The Japanese airline is looking to install pull down blinds on 787s already delivered, an industry source with knowledge of the matter told Reuters. ANA wants darker windows for two Dreamliners operated on long haul routes, company spokesman Ryosei Nomura said."

Interesting, considering ANA is also boasting about a customer survey in which apparently the dimmable windows are highly praised. Says a lot about such surveys!  

[Edited 2012-06-20 02:53:40]

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 22079 times:

From ANA Press Liaison, via FlightGlobal Reporter Firdaus Hashim:

Quote:
ANA clarified that they are NOT looking to install modifications on their 787 windows & issues they've raised with Boeing have been fixed.



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User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2252 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 21005 times:

If that's true, then poor company spokesman Ryosei Nomura must be looking for a new job now, for having not toed the company's official line!  

User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 20371 times:

I'd wondered that myself when I saw the demos. It seemed like a lot of people would want total blackout when the sun is hitting the window and they wanted to sleep.
Did they install shades or modify the windows?



Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineduncan16 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 19647 times:

I too have heard that at altitude in direct sun, the windows do not get dark enough. (From the videos I have seen, they are also extremely slow to dim.) Perhaps BA will switch to a different type of dimmable window that goes to blackout. Here is a video of that window: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWUnmq9nFgk This would be better than adding blinds.

User currently offlineWarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 577 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 19081 times:

Quoting duncan16 (Reply 5):
This would be better than adding blinds.

Knowing some revenue opportunistic airlines, we may see an extra charge for fully dimable windows  



DaHjaj jaj QaQ Daghajjaj !!!!
User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 18096 times:

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 3):
Did they install shades or modify the windows?

I'm not sure anything has been done yet, but the installation of mechanical shades is almost certainly not something Boeing would offer. The 787 sidewalls could not accommodate mechanical shades from a geometry standpoint, and there are much easier solutions.

The electro-chromic function in the 787 windows works by applying a small current to a gel-like material. The chemistry of this gel can be varied to control both the maximum level of opacity as well as the color of the tint. Boeing chose both the opacity and tint color based on a lot of testing and opinion studies... But they clearly have not ended up with a solution which satisfies everyone all of the time. I suspect the final outcome of this will be a revision to the gel chemistry to create a darker pane, or to move from the bluish tint used today to a more black tinting (human eyes are more sensitive to the blue/green spectrum than other colors of light). Boeing could end up offering more than one tint option for operators who want something closer to fully opaque windows.

The whole thing seems a bit embarrassing for Boeing, given their heavy marketing of this feature and Airbus' hammering on the "slow and ineffective" window shades on the 787. Regardless, I think this will end up being a tempest in a teapot. Boeing and ANA will settle on a solution that satisfies the objectives of both companies and the issue will be solved. From a PR standpoint it's a nightmare. From a technical standpoint, it's a nit.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29700 posts, RR: 84
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 18056 times:
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NH have already stated the original report was incorrect and whatever issue they did have has been addressed by Boeing, so I am a bit stumped on how this is a PR issue for Boeing.   

User currently offlineFN1001 From Moldova, joined Sep 2008, 234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 17923 times:

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 6):
Knowing some revenue opportunistic airlines, we may see an extra charge for fully dimable windows

When you buy a condo with skyline view or a breathtaking landscape in front of the window, you pay a premium compared to the one with windows facing into a dark and dirty backyard. I guess that special airline you mean will charge for _not_ having shades or dimmable windows so you can enjoy the view.



Mai bine să-ţi fie rău decît să-ţi pară rău.
User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 17543 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
NH have already stated the original report was incorrect and whatever issue they did have has been addressed by Boeing, so I am a bit stumped on how this is a PR issue for Boeing.

I wouldn't argue with NH saying it's solved. I don't have any direct knowledge of what changes are being studied or have already been made, so it may indeed be the case.


User currently offlineKDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 17340 times:

Quoting sankaps (Thread starter):
Interesting, considering ANA is also boasting about a customer survey in which apparently the dimmable windows are highly praised. Says a lot about such surveys!

I think this says more about the company who apparently thinks they know more than the customers - ignoring the results of such customer surveys can negatively impact the company.


User currently offlineLimaNiner From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 16958 times:

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 6):
Knowing some revenue opportunistic airlines, we may see an extra charge for fully dimable windows

Maybe they'll install a knob, and you can go up to "9" for free... but then pay to go to "10" (or "11").  


User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3524 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 16753 times:

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 4):
People will only be able to sleep if they put a white noise generator in there to drown out all 100 babies crying and allow smoking to drown out the smell of peoples farts

Never flown a Japanese airline, I'm guessing?

Not saying crying babies are never a problem on ANA - my worst crying baby flight ever was on ANA, actually - but generally this is frowned upon by Japanese society and the f/a's do make a real effort at fixing the situation. So it's far, far less of a problem than on any western airline I've flown - when they dim the windows, you are expected to be quiet and that goes for your kids too.

On my horrible crying baby flight, the f/a's were literally doing more parenting than the parents for that kid (the parents were western - surprise!). They even took the kid away for long stretches of time - I don't know where they put him, but they actually took him away from the parents for about 45 minutes several times during the flight.

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 11):
I think this says more about the company who apparently thinks they know more than the customers - ignoring the results of such customer surveys can negatively impact the company.

Why would ANA insist on a change if they didn't feel it was necessary? Is the company just a bunch of busybodies? How would it help them to force Boeing to change something on their planes if customers don't care? I mean it wouldn't make sense for them to even ask - it's a lot of trouble for everyone involved where if it wasn't an issue, I'm sure ANA would be more than happy to do nothing at all and just keep flying and generating revenue.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18712 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 16645 times:

I always wonder at people who make a big deal about the cabin being too bright, windows being open, etc. etc. etc.

There are these fancy, high-tech devices that people can wear that miraculously solve the problem. Remarkably, they usually cost less than US$5 each.



Maybe they haven't invented them yet in Japan?  

Anyway, given the size of the windows, wouldn't pull-down shades be a bit of a technical headache?


User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 16546 times:

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 12):
but then pay to go to "10" (or "11").

Yes. 11 should always command a premium!  Thanks for that!

For any of you who missed this fine cultural reference from the early 1980s... enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuzpsO4ErOQ&hd=1


User currently offlineduncan16 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 16508 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
NH have already stated the original report was incorrect and whatever issue they did have has been addressed by Boeing, so I am a bit stumped on how this is a PR issue for Boeing.

Please cite your sources for this, I have not been able to find anything. Thank you.


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3328 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 16394 times:

Quoting duncan16 (Reply 16):

Please cite your sources for this, I have not been able to find anything. Thank you.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 1):

From ANA Press Liaison, via FlightGlobal Reporter Firdaus Hashim:

Quote:
ANA clarified that they are NOT looking to install modifications on their 787 windows & issues they've raised with Boeing have been fixed.




User currently offlineKDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 15927 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 13):
Why would ANA insist on a change if they didn't feel it was necessary? Is the company just a bunch of busybodies? How would it help them to force Boeing to change something on their planes if customers don't care? I mean it wouldn't make sense for them to even ask - it's a lot of trouble for everyone involved where if it wasn't an issue, I'm sure ANA would be more than happy to do nothing at all and just keep flying and generating revenue.

I agree but the way the survey says the pax love the tinting windows- then for the company to turn around and ask for the pull down shades sounds a bit odd, unless the customers asked for that. The survey results as stated make the company's statement versus the survey sound almost contradictory.....


User currently offlineduncan16 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 15835 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 17):
From ANA Press Liaison, via FlightGlobal Reporter Firdaus Hashim:

Quote:
ANA clarified that they are NOT looking to install modifications on their 787 windows & issues they've raised with Boeing have been fixed.

Thank you for this, but it is very odd -- I have searched the FlightGlobal site and also Firdaus Hashim articles and blog posts, and do not see anything from which the quote was taken. Could you provide link to the actual post or article as that would provide further insight as to what is going on? Thank you.


User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1336 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 15698 times:

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 6):
Knowing some revenue opportunistic airlines, we may see an extra charge for fully dimable windows

They could charge for window cling film cut to the shape of the window. Kind of like they have for cars, but it would have to stick to whatever the inside/scratch pane is made of.

If not the airline, certainly retailers.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 15592 times:

Quoting duncan16 (Reply 19):
Thank you for this, but it is very odd -- I have searched the FlightGlobal site and also Firdaus Hashim articles and blog posts, and do not see anything from which the quote was taken. Could you provide link to the actual post or article as that would provide further insight as to what is going on? Thank you.

Twitter feed.



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User currently offlinereality From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 15473 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 21):
Twitter feed.

I think he is asking for the LINK to the twitter feed.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 15418 times:

Quoting reality (Reply 22):
I think he is asking for the LINK to the twitter feed.

Links:
https://twitter.com/FHavg/status/215363978749165568
https://twitter.com/SivaG/status/215364240243040256



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1806 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 15416 times:

I think this thread was more a try to stir a heated debate? Luckily it didnt catch on as well this time  

User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4593 posts, RR: 38
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 14432 times:
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Quoting duncan16 (Reply 4):
Here is a video of that window: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWUnmq9nFgk This would be better than adding blinds.

That is very impressive, and already widely used in multiple aircraft and helicopters.

Quoting CM (Reply 6):
The whole thing seems a bit embarrassing for Boeing, given their heavy marketing of this feature and Airbus' hammering on the "slow and ineffective" window shades on the 787.

Well, if some of the A380's have the I-shade as presented in the post from duncan16, they are imho a little bit entitled to do so.  .


25 Post contains links and images tdscanuck : And the more recent and awesome update: Tom.
26 Post contains images wjcandee : "Our shades go to Eleven." EDIT: Just crossed with Tom's post. Tom: Thanks for that. BRILLIANT!![Edited 2012-06-20 15:27:20]
27 Dazed767 : Well saw 2 a.net photos on there, contacted the owners. I'd be surprised if they asked permission.
28 Max Q : I kind of suspected this would be a problem. The level of ambient light experienced in the daytime at altitude, or even more extreme, when the window
29 seabosdca : I'd wager much better than shades. The technology is very simple and the materials exceedingly durable. Yes, you can. A pull-down shade is a moving p
30 Max Q : Time will tell..
31 tdscanuck : Time did tell. The window people pummelled the snot out of the electrochromic windows and the pull-down shades. The electric windows won handily. It'
32 qf340500 : well, time will tell still, in parctice daily use by kids, drunks, elderly people and the average Joe who plays with it like with a toy etc... i think
33 DocLightning : But... it's proven. They've subjected it to far worse abuse for far longer than it will ever be in service. There may be minor issues, but they are p
34 XT6Wagon : dude, Its even tougher than than the stuff they make mall kiosk displays out of. Lets put it this way, if it needs to be tougher, Its the SWITCH that
35 Post contains images qf340500 : "They've subjected it to far worse abuse for far longer than it will ever be in service." ----> how can that be, i guess the plane will be in servi
36 CM : This is all true, but not applicable to the dimmable electro-chromic pane. The dimmable pane is a distinct part that sits between the dust pane and t
37 DocLightning : They have given it more than 20 years of use by accelerating the use.
38 XT6Wagon : well I was talking about the dimmable layer vs LCD too. This really isn't a new technology. Its an old one. Problem is that while its been around a w
39 Max Q : Obviously it's not up to par or ANA would not be complaining about it. Technology for technology's sake is always suspect !
40 col : Have not been on a 787 as of yet, so I tend to reserve judgement until I actually try a product, but I would tend to think the following: If it was th
41 sweair : Are you sure about that? It might just be a better tech than blinds that break down a lot. I have heard many that work with maintenance on aircraft s
42 nomadd22 : I hope it's better tested than those IFE displays I poke at for two minutes in vain attempts tp select a channel.
43 aerokiwi : Except, they're not. Did you not read the very first reply to this thread?
44 sankaps : The report was from a named ANA spokesman. The denial was in a Twitterfeed. Not so sure there is not some truth to the original story... no smoke wit
45 wingman : Is it not possible they love the windows but just wish they were darker? I love In and Out burgers but I often wish they were bigger.
46 Post contains images sankaps : Absolutely possible, ergo the thread title "ANA wants the windows darker".
47 Post contains images bikerthai : Is it anything like the auto electric dimmer on my rear view mirror? My car is a 1991 Lexus . . . auto dimmer still works even as my air condition ha
48 KDAYflyer : Making them go darker will likely end up on the Boeing "to do" list....
49 babybus : I'm not surprised ANA want new shades. It must be like dark sunglasses those window shades. If the sun is streaming in on you while you're trying to s
50 Post contains images CXB77L : No one can see outside with the blinds pulled down, but the tinted windows have resolved that problem. I couldn't agree more.
51 tdscanuck : Accelerated life testing is about a 100 year old concept. It's incredibly well proven. If it weren't, it would take 20 years to bring products with 2
52 Post contains images spacecadet : And this distinction matters because... ? If the shade doesn't work, it doesn't work. It doesn't matter to a passenger or an airline *why* it doesn't
53 DocLightning : That's a pretty passive-aggressive way to operate and generally not in line with Japanese culture. Especially when it's over a relatively simple issu
54 Post contains images bikerthai : LOL, testing only confirms the parameters to which the device is design to operate. Testing does not involve parameters to which the device is not de
55 pygmalion : Lets be honest here too... The mechanical shades are not opaque. They are translucent and still allow some light through. The heat still comes through
56 Post contains links BlueBus : Interesting. Looks like this could all be wrong and ANA is not looking to put in sun shades via Airline Reporter: Exclusive: ANA is NOT Looking to Ins
57 tdscanuck : My point was that the average life of an iPhone is significantly longer than the iPhone development cycle. If you didn't have accelerated testing, th
58 spacecadet : It's exactly in line with how Japanese business works. I actually run a (small) Japanese business - it's how I make my living - and I deal with ten d
59 SSTeve : These windows will be like ABS brakes. An overall improvement, but with a significant and vocal set of detractors, and with even those who are okay wi
60 tdscanuck : That's absolutely true but, I think, betrays some lack of knowledge about how detailed aerospace specifications are, even for non-safety critical par
61 Post contains images bikerthai : And I think this a point we all would agree. However, you can't test all the ways people will abuse a product. But even if you can, you can not desig
62 pygmalion : Typical passenger accommodations are designed for the 5th and 95th percentile male and female. That profile is adjusted for typical country of use. A
63 Post contains images Darksnowynight : Come on back and fix one some time. Correct. Having done numerous corrective actions in my time, I cannot welcome this enough, as fixing anymore than
64 Max Q : Must remember to bring a stick on window shade when I ride a 787. Still prefer it to an Airbus though..
65 sweair : Are you that sure it will be that bright? Have you experienced it in person?
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