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ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking  
User currently offlinektachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1793 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 48723 times:

I am glad that all of the passengers on this flight were safe.

The article states that at 1:20 pm, an ANA flight from Beijing was trying to land at NRT. Upon landing, the pilot held up the nose of the aircraft and the aircraft bounced twice.

According to the ministry of land infrastructure and transportation, the body of the B763 changed shape (looks like a crack to me).

All of the 193 people onboard were safe.

I thought the B763 was popular amongst airlines due to its low maintenance costs, but I guess not for this bird.......

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/videone...s/fnn?a=20120620-00000845-fnn-soci

I hope everyone can view this video...

It seems like the aircraft encountered some type of windsheer before it touched down?


Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
101 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 48770 times:

That was a very odd landing. There must have been an electronics issue or something.

There will be a few people on that plane that won't be flying again I'm sure.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10677 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 48554 times:

Quoting ktachiya (Thread starter):

What a landing. Thats a massive crack, even visible from afar in low-res video. If it would be a car I´d say next stop is the scrapheap. As ANA has begun retiring its older 767s (another one a few days ago) I wonder how old this one is. With lots of 787s arriving this plane wont be needed anymore and could be retired in place of another scheduled one.


User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 793 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 48401 times:

It would appear that the winds were quite gusty this day, which never happens in NRT (sarcasm). The reason that I say this is that the airplane is approaching slightly nose low. This only occurs on the 763 if you add speed to the approach speed as you would on a windy day. It would also appear that passing 100' or so agl the winds shifted as the airplane pitches to adjust to the loss of speed. The pilot stays with the approach but ends up touching down in a high sink condition, bounces, and subsequently comes down hard on the nose. The proper move would have been to go around and try it again, preferably on 34L as it doesn't have that giant hole on short final which makes the winds even worse.


727forever



727forever
User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 543 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 48283 times:

WOW! Hopefully that was an older bird and not one of the brand new ones.

Planted on the mains, bounced, planted on the nose first, bounced, planted on mains again then slammed down the nose... Almost like the real life version of the that airbus video YouTube porpoising down the runway.



Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlineDL_Mech From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1933 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 48336 times:

Damage like this has been repaired before:


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Photo © Gerard Isaacson
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Photo © Joe Pries - ATR Team


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Photo © Claudio Sallaberry



[Edited 2012-06-20 06:44:10]


This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10677 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 48092 times:

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 5):
Damage like this has been repaired before:

Even worse cracks have been repaired like this maintenance mishap:
http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/photos/01dabyz.jpg

But if this ANA 767 will be repaired will come down to age. If its less than 10 years old it´ll likely fly again. But if its close to 20 years they wont do it as those aging planes are currently being wfu by ANA and hardly worth a penny.


User currently offlineAquila3 From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 47824 times:

Fore pure dialectic ( I really hope this will never happen again) what would have been the outcome with a CRFP 787?
No damage at all or, if limit passed complete destruction of the cabin?
Does the 787 still have longitudinal beams structure or does it rely only on its super rigid skin?



chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
User currently offlineandrewtang From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 461 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 47665 times:

The aircraft is JA610A.

User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10677 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 47591 times:

Quoting andrewtang (Reply 8):
The aircraft is JA610A.

Thanks. That one is only 9 years old. I bet ANA wished it was an older one to make decisions easy!


User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 47530 times:

This has happened on a number of occasions. 767s really don't like landing hard on the nose gear. Given the age of the aircraft I would expect it will be repaired.

User currently offlineje89_w From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 2360 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 47313 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Wow, those cameras at NRT sure catch a lot of incidents/accidents on that runway! JA610A arrived from PEK at 13:22 local, wonder what the wind conditions were like during that time.

Quoting babybus (Reply 1):
There must have been an electronics issue or something.

Please explain.


User currently offlineDaleaholic From UK - England, joined Oct 2005, 3207 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 47102 times:

There was a Skyservice 767 which had a hard landing in PUJ years ago, they fixed it and it's flying daily for TCX now. Think the aircraft may actually have been on lease from TCX at the time...




Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
User currently offlineakelley728 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2191 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 46854 times:

Quoting ktachiya (Thread starter):
I thought the B763 was popular amongst airlines due to its low maintenance costs, but I guess not for this bird.......

Please explain this statement - Maintenance costs have nothing to do with a hard landing and the subsequent damage caused by said hard landing.


User currently onlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4923 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 46820 times:

It is pretty difficult to make Boeing's finest hit the ground hard, but the conditions all see to be similar. Gusty/wind-shear, combined with high runway temperatures.

The "Boeing Bubble" wont save you then.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinenighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5134 posts, RR: 33
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 46088 times:

Quoting Daleaholic (Reply 12):
There was a Skyservice 767 which had a hard landing in PUJ years ago, they fixed it and it's flying daily for TCX now. Think the aircraft may actually have been on lease from TCX at the time...

It was indeed on lease from TCX at the time, and made a hard landing, I think it was in the Caribbean. Because it was on lease, they had to fix it, which involved flying a team of Boeing engineers down to the Caribbean, building a hanger around the aircraft, then cutting the fuselage to remove the broken section.

The aircraft is now back in service with TCX, and I flew on the aircraft 3 years ago. I was sat right where the crack used to be.



That'll teach you
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30862 posts, RR: 86
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 46043 times:
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Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 7):
...what would have been the outcome with a CRFP 787? No damage at all or, if limit passed complete destruction of the cabin?

There is no way the 787 would have been certified if a landing like that would have sheared the fuselage apart.


User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days ago) and read 45430 times:

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 7):
Does the 787 still have longitudinal beams structure or does it rely only on its super rigid skin?

The 787 is still a semi-monocoque design, with stringers and frames providing stiffening against body bending inside the skin.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 7):
what would have been the outcome with a CRFP 787? No damage at all or, if limit passed complete destruction of the cabin?

Assuming you could get the 787 to perform the same bounce at landing (the flight controls are augmented to prevent it), the results of destructive static strength testing for body bending indicate the 787 will fair much better than any aluminum aircraft in this same scenario. The static test for body bending of the fuselage forward of the 787 wing was abandoned well past 100% ULF, after the body wouldn't break but the test fixture began to fail. Subsequently, large cuts were put in the skin and some frames were cut as well, in order weaken the structure and the test was resumed. The forward body still would not buckle, as you see in the ANA frame.

As you would expect from a first generation CFRP aircframe, testing has shown the 787 structure is quite conservatively designed.


User currently offline4holer From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 3011 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days ago) and read 44993 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
There is no way the 787 would have been certified if a landing like that would have sheared the fuselage apart

Fair enough statement... But what would have happened if that would have been an MD-11?



Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
User currently offlineSiren From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 313 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days ago) and read 44331 times:

Quoting 4holer (Reply 18):
But what would have happened if that would have been an MD-11?

Low blow... we already saw that happened to an MD-11 under similar conditions at NRT...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedEx_Express_Flight_80


User currently offlineEY460 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days ago) and read 44286 times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS4LGjcYPDk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=S7pXjQ16f5c

These are the links of the landing and damages.


User currently onlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12428 posts, RR: 37
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 43182 times:

Wow, that was some touchdown!

The British AAIB recently released a report on an similar incident involving a Thomson 767 at Bristol in 2010, which makes interesting reading; the circumstances and the damage are similar to the ANA aircraft:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/...ay_2012/boeing_767_324__g_oobk.cfm


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8996 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 43092 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 1):
That was a very odd landing. There must have been an electronics issue or something.

It would be wind related, not the first, and will not be the last wind related incident.

The low level turbulence is impossible to see, and the reported wind measurements by the tower do not tell you about the column of air above the runway for the last 100 ft.

The only real question is if they exceeded the normal approach attitudes at all, which should have prompted a go-around. This can be very heard to tell in a very dynamic environment in the the flare.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offline747srule From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 429 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 42850 times:

Looked like Bouncing Betty to me!!


Jesus is the way,the truth,and the life
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 100
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 42795 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I hope everyone is ok (no soft tissue injuries). I hope they'll all also fly again.  
Quoting na (Reply 2):
Thats a massive crack, even visible from afar in low-res video. If it would be a car I´d say next stop is the scrapheap.

It will matter on the internal damage. As others have noted, the exterior damage has had like repaired before. Like with your car, the decision rests with the insurance company.

Quoting Siren (Reply 19):
Quoting 4holer (Reply 18):
But what would have happened if that would have been an MD-11?

Low blow... we already saw that happened to an MD-11 under similar conditions at NRT...

   Yea, that solves the scrap/repair question.

Quoting CM (Reply 17):
Assuming you could get the 787 to perform the same bounce at landing (the flight controls are augmented to prevent it), the results of destructive static strength testing for body bending indicate the 787 will fair much better than any aluminum aircraft in this same scenario.

   I suspect the 787 will eventually have a lower insurance bill. (I suspect today it is higher being a new airframe with unknown (but bracketable) damage costs.)

Quoting CM (Reply 17):
The static test for body bending of the fuselage forward of the 787 wing was abandoned well past 100% ULF, after the body wouldn't break but the test fixture began to fail.

Wimps. Grumman (with the F-14) showed one should continue until the airframe bounces off the ceiling.  
Quoting CM (Reply 17):
As you would expect from a first generation CFRP aircframe, testing has shown the 787 structure is quite conservatively designed.

   Which will help Boeing remove some weight.   


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
25 HAL : As with the Thompson 767 mentioned a couple of posts ago, this looks very much like damage from too hard a landing on the nose gear. In my 767 sim tra
26 Post contains links and images 135mech : Wind (especially gusting) can be devastating to any aircraft and then you have wind-shear...that will ruin your day! A lot of people old enough remem
27 tdscanuck : 767 has conventional (cable+hydraulics) flight controls. Unless the autoland computers all completely and simultaneously lost their mind (in which ca
28 mfullmer : This aircraft was delivered in April, 2003 so it's too young to be written off.
29 kaitak : I know it's young, but I wouldn't be too quick to make that assumption; the age and value of the aircraft will certainly feature in the assessment of
30 MSPNWA : That's a pretty scary video. Just glad that they landed without a big crash.
31 KDAYflyer : Wow. I can just imagine the thoughts of the pax. I have no doubt several of them now have "a drinking problem" (aka Airplane).
32 RobertS975 : Reminds me of the FEDEX MD11 crash at NRT.
33 B738FlyUIA : Yes, indeed it could have worse.... Glad that nothing more happened and the airframe was stable enough for that landing. What you think after a exami
34 spacecadet : NRT is quite a windy airport. I've flown into it probably two dozen times and have never experienced a smooth landing.
35 Tradewinds : First thing I thought of when I saw the video. The bounce is pretty much identical (less violent, of course, thankfully). That could have been much w
36 kaitak : Indeed; here's a report from another pilot, who landed shortly before the NH flight: "Landed at NRT around the same time. Probably just before the ai
37 sweair : A few soiled seats I can imagine? That much be awful to experience as a passenger? I once experienced a long drop in a storm cloud going into Cairns,
38 ADent : I don't see any cracks in the videos links posted by EY460 - just wrinkling. Am I missing something?
39 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : Also this Air Algérie 738 damaged in a heavy landing at Sétif, Algeria (QSF) in 2008. http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20080314-0
40 quiet1 : I wonder what it sounded like in the cabin near where it buckled.
41 Post contains links softrally : A similar thing happened to an OZ 767 on landing in CJU in 1992. The aircraft was just over a year old! It was repaired and then returned to service .
42 grude1087 : I can imagine there might have been quite a bit of screaming during the last 10 seconds of the flight, based on how that thing was rocking around!!
43 seabosdca : Several 767s have had this happen before. To my knowledge, all of them have been repaired. ...and that's exactly what precipitated this sort of damag
44 soon7x7 : The same type damage, "compression fracture", much like a broken collarbone, occurred to CN-RNT, Royal air Maroc. Once the crown buckled then relaxed
45 CM : You can't inflict the same damage on a CFRP fuselage. The failure mechanism of the material is very different. See Tom's comment... You didn't state
46 DL_Mech : That photo is from an article in Boeings' "Airliner" magazine. I imagine that Boeing conceals the identity of customers of aircraft involved in accid
47 aviateur : Looks like one of my landings! I believe the LAB incident was caused by a malfunction during a practice autoland. Anybody know about this? PS
48 neutronstar73 : I don't think you thought this through, or you are taking a swipe at the 767 for something happening that has nothing to do with its life-cycle costs
49 kaitak : Apparently the nosegear was badly twisted (on the ANA 767); the impact was in excess of 5G.
50 Post contains images lightsaber : Good thing there is the 9G design requirement. Lightsaber
51 Post contains links and images PHX787 : http://avherald.com/h?article=45173104&opt=0 There's a video there (the OP's video isn't workIng?) That looked BRUTAL...how come there are so many
52 ktachiya : Maintenance costs of the B767 is accounted for by JAL. At least they find that the maintenance costs of the B767 are inexpensive compared to the othe
53 ktachiya : Do you know if JA610A taxied to the gate by itself after this happened, or do you think it was towed to its gate?
54 DocLightning : You know, I've been watching it over and over and I'm not so sure. The aircraft has some special insignia painted right where the buckle appears and
55 Aaron747 : It's worth pointing out that a good-sized typhoon passed directly through Honshu overnight Tuesday/Wednesday here, and this would have been around the
56 zeke : Same with TPE yesterday, understand they also had an incident which resulted n one of the runways closing.
57 na : From Flightglobal: "It is not yet decided whether we will return the aircraft to service," says the ANA spokeswoman. Sounds like a truly serious damag
58 Post contains images DrColenzo : Very true; I've sat on the terminal roof of Narita more than once and have seen some astonishing landings, statistically much higher than I have seen
59 zeke : You mean for passenger seats etc ? it is not a civil airframe requirement. if the nose gear saw 5g, it does not translate to mean the passenger seats
60 Aquila3 : Thanks Tom, this was what I suspected as well. Failure models of CRFP parts look very different from metal parts, more similar to wood, if I can say
61 JAAlbert : Several have posted similar types of buckling incidents involving the 767-300. Is the 767-300 particularly prone to this type of damage, or has it hap
62 Post contains links Flying Belgian : That one is even "better", though I have no idea whether its fuselage sustained any damage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfaNapjz8K4
63 B738FlyUIA : Quoting na (Reply 57): Sounds like a truly serious damage. But as I said with many 787s coming in, not all 767s are needed anymore and ANA is accelera
64 soon7x7 : Nonsense...Of course you can, The striking forces don't change because the substrate is different, the damage will appear different than metal becaus
65 tdscanuck : The nose gear has no independant accelerometer (at least on a normal 767)...the closest one would be the pilot's seat normal accel. If that saw 5g it
66 Tristarsteve : Just an idea, but. Aircraft are usually loaded so that the CofG is as far aft as possible. In fact some aircraft like A330 have a fuel system that ac
67 md80fanatic : Put an engine's weight on the tail of the 767 and watch a far worse outcome than what we witnessed on MD-11. The "crack" on this 767 would be a compl
68 flyabr : The 767 was not designed for a tail engine...so I don't understand the point of the above post??? That said, the video of the ANA 767 does give one th
69 tdscanuck : It shouldn't be. The difference between full fwd and full aft CG, in absolute terms, is on the order of ~10'. The change in actual loading of the gea
70 Roseflyer : I personally doubt it would be a write off like some have speculated. It is hard to estimate the cost, but I’ve seen an airplane with skin repair, f
71 bikerthai : Also for clarification, the 9G requirement for forward acceleration(deceleration). Vertical deceleration is different. I can't recall which value but
72 RickNRoll : Can't they just build a new runway going in the direction of the wind?
73 Post contains images queb : a swivelling runway ?
74 soon7x7 : This is news to me but in time I would gather as with all past technologies...repairs will be identified and satisfied through much trial and error.
75 col : You mean vertical - wind shear style?
76 PHX787 : I think I see what you're getting at. The situation in NRT is pretty much absurd. The master plan called for the two parallel runways you see now to
77 soon7x7 : And in that I agree but then their goes your weight saving issue at tremendous expense. China is manufacturing a new regional jet that will revert ba
78 spacecadet : Crosswinds are a problem, but not *the* problem. This landing mishap was not caused by a crosswind. Neither was the FedEx accident. *Protesters* didn
79 zeke : I actually don't mind NRT, or its location.
80 PHX787 : HND was well too overcrowded. NRT needed to be built and it's in a perfect location if the TYO area continues to grow. At the time, nothing was avail
81 tdscanuck : I don't really follow you here: the 787 CFRP structure is monocoque construction essentially identical in structure philosophy to aluminum...it has t
82 zeke : That is exactly what has happened on a number of hard landings. From what I recall from reading older 767 hard landings that Boeing were to incorpora
83 carpethead : NRT location in itself is not the problem. The problem is and to a certain degree still existing today, was that there is no dedicated high-speed rail
84 RickNRoll : Thank you.
85 DrColenzo : Despite the rough take off and landings, I quite like Narita and find the airport a very humane and relaxing experience. Also, I wonder whether the lo
86 litz : Can't imagine why it wouldn't have ... unless the airframe was making weird noises while taxiing, alarms were sound, or other items of distraction, h
87 flybynight : Are all the expenses of repairing this plane placed on the airliner, or would there be insurance involved, similar to a car repair?
88 Roseflyer : This is the type of even that most likely the airline is paying for its own repairs. Repair caused by the operation of the airplane is typically part
89 PHX787 : If there were really strong wings against the plane, i think that all he'd need to do is give that excuse.
90 ltbewr : I would presume there will be a through investigation of this incident by ANA, Japan's air safety ministry and insurance reps to find out what happene
91 ktachiya : My questions were, are pilots not trained to go around in that situation? If he went around even if the tires hit the ground, then things might have
92 PHX787 : There's a point of no return when the aircraft can't go around, especially when it's that close to the runway.
93 DrColenzo : Really? I thought a certain throttle level had to be maintained on landing as a contingency, isn't that rule designed for a potential go around? I'm
94 sweair : A touch and go? That is done all around, why could this not have been that?
95 ktachiya : Exactly the word I was searching for. Sorry PHX787, go around might have not been appropriate for that. But if it were safer, and the pilot felt the
96 RickNRoll : If everyone did a go around or touch and go at Narita when they should, would they build up huge queues of planes waiting to land?
97 zeke : A rejected landing can be done at any stage up to the application of reverse thrust. Many situations where the wheels will touch the runway (e.g. bou
98 RickNRoll : Thanks. I was just asking because there were were a lot of complaints about Narita being a particularly difficult airport. Would pilots be less incli
99 Post contains links ZANL188 : A Royal Air Maroc 767 had a similiar nose wheel landing at JFK with similiar damage resulting... It was repaired. Article and before & after pix a
100 tdscanuck : That's in the approach. Once you go into the flare the engines come back to flight idle. Flight idle is designed around providing adequate spool up t
101 PHX787 : Ah totally forgot about that....but could something like that do a touch and go in that situation?
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