Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
UA Removing 787 Flight Deck Barriers  
User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 849 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 24308 times:

If the aircraft come with barriers already installed, why remove them?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/union-...united-removing-787-225420734.html


My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30582 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 24167 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting flyhossd (Thread starter):
If the aircraft come with barriers already installed, why remove them?

Pulling them out would save weight.


User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 849 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 23909 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Pulling them out would save weight.

If the barriers are anything like those on the L-UAL 757s, the weight savings would be very minimal (more could be saved with other means).

I don't understand removing a security feature.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30582 posts, RR: 84
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 23849 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 2):
If the barriers are anything like those on the L-UAL 757s, the weight savings would be very minimal (more could be saved with other means).

They saved a non-insifignificant bit by pulling the curtains dividing the premium cabins from the Economy section.

And if the barriers are anything like those on the 757s, they appear to be a pain in the arse so maybe that is why the removed them.  


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3933 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 23816 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Because that barrier is used extensively to begin with. Not.


I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1606 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 23711 times:

Quoting flyhossd (Thread starter):
If the aircraft come with barriers already installed, why remove them?

Reading the comments on that article makes me want to not live on this planet anymore. I understand why the pilots are making a fuss, they know this is a non-issue, but it makes management look bad, so they highlighted it. Pretty standard Union negotiation tactic.


User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 849 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 23398 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
They saved a non-insifignificant bit by pulling the curtains dividing the premium cabins from the Economy section.

IIRC, the curtains were removed for other reasons, not weight savings.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 5):
I understand why the pilots are making a fuss, they know this is a non-issue, but it makes management look bad, so they highlighted it. Pretty standard Union negotiation tactic.

You may be right, but shouldn't security (i.e., safety) take precedence?



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30582 posts, RR: 84
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 23377 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 6):
IIRC, the curtains were removed for other reasons, not weight savings.

The official claim was for security, but they were quite thick and heavy fabric so pulling them out did cut the annual fuel bill, as well.


User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1606 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 23349 times:

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 6):
You may be right, but shouldn't security (i.e., safety) take precedence?

When is the last time someone successfully broke into a cockpit the way they are currently configured? If we follow the logic that EVERYTHING we do should be done to the maximum safety standard, then EVERY airplane would be certified for ETOPS 240, but no one would ever suggest that because it makes no sense. There are too many "what ifs" to hedge the risk of everything with a safety program. Sometimes we need to say enough is enough, right?


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 23310 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Quoting flyhossd (Reply 6):
IIRC, the curtains were removed for other reasons, not weight savings.

The official claim was for security, but they were quite thick and heavy fabric so pulling them out did cut the annual fuel bill, as well.

...The "official claim" was for security because that is why they were removed and replaced with a thinner curtain that allows you to see the entire length of the plane....from wherever you are sitting.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 849 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 23204 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 8):
Sometimes we need to say enough is enough, right?

In this case - since Al Qaeda is still focused on aircraft - I would prefer that the barriers remain and be installed on more aircraft.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlinecal764 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 21288 times:

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 10):
In this case - since Al Qaeda is still focused on aircraft - I would prefer that the barriers remain and be installed on more aircraft.

I understand your point of view, and respect it..but the fact of the matter remains that their is still 1 important point of entry to the cockpit that is secure beyond the means of pre-9/11 cockpit doors. That being said, while Al Qaeda may have airplanes stuck in their head, they or their followers/worshipers, ect. haven't attempted to enter the cockpit of one since that historic day which leads me to believe that they have it in their heads that attaining entry to the cockpit of an aircraft capable of flying over America in a post-9/11 environment is not likely a feasable means of destruction; though attempts have been made to stuff explosives in ones groin, a likely highlight is that the USA LEARNS from the past and theirs no way they would allow UA to fly it's shiny new 787's knowing some lunatic with intent can gain access to the flight controls. Let UA take the weight savings without compromising .05% of security.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
they appear to be a pain in the arse

When I fly, the second I leave the house everything in the entire process of flying seems to be a pain in the arse, except the common courtsoy one enjoys from Continental employees..or am I mistaken?



1. Fly to Win 2. Fund Future 3. Reliability 4. Work Together CO: Work Hard, Fly Right...
User currently offlinecubastar From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 407 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 21008 times:

I am not familiar with this metal barrier nor do I know how it is installed. I just wonder if exit from the cockpit to the cabin (or vice versa) would in any way be hampered in the event of an accident occurring on takeoff or landing. Any thoughts (or answers)?

User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1606 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20722 times:

Quoting cubastar (Reply 12):
I am not familiar with this metal barrier nor do I know how it is installed. I just wonder if exit from the cockpit to the cabin (or vice versa) would in any way be hampered in the event of an accident occurring on takeoff or landing. Any thoughts (or answers)?

N/A. The barrier is put up by the FA when the captain calls and says he needs to use the restroom, then folded back up when he re-enters the cockpit. Similar when a pilot would go into the cabin. Second barrier goes up, cockpit door opens, pilot leaves cockpit, cockpit door closes, second barrier opens. It's not up during the majority of flight is my understanding.


User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1576 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 18759 times:

NW installed barriers on some 744's but they were a pain to use, broke frequently and were eventually removed. They were just testing them before doing the entire fleet.


Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5179 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15817 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
They saved a non-insifignificant bit by pulling the curtains dividing the premium cabins from the Economy section.

I believe the curtains were removed per FAA orders. It was part of security improvements. Without curtains, F/As in first or coach can see what is going on in the other cabin, and pilots exiting the cockpit can see what is going on in coach.

Since then, some airlines have installed sheer curtains.


User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 849 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15560 times:

Quoting cubastar (Reply 12):
I am not familiar with this metal barrier nor do I know how it is installed. I just wonder if exit from the cockpit to the cabin (or vice versa) would in any way be hampered in the event of an accident occurring on takeoff or landing. Any thoughts (or answers)?

I haven't seen the barriers for the 787. On the legacy UAL 757s that have the secondary barrier, it's somewhat similar to a retractable clothesline, but mounted vertically. When in use, a flight attendant pulls a bar across the aisle and secures it to the other side; this bar has 5 (?) evenly spaced horizontal wires attached to it and the permanent mount.

Here's a link to a retractable clothesline that is similar in concept to the barrier that is in use on some UA 757s:

http://www.clotheslineshop.com/mm5/m...roduct_Code=15-7&Category_Code=OCI

The barrier is mounted on the cabinets nearest First Class, so there is room to move between the flight deck and the lavatory.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlinemanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 472 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 14489 times:

Should not be a major issue. I have seen on some airlines like F9 use a system where in the the FA blocks the access with a food cart when the cockpit door is opened. And keeps it blocked till the pilot or copilot is back in the cockpit. Thta system to me is more than handy,

User currently offlineEurohub From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11732 times:

Quoting manny (Reply 17):
I have seen on some airlines like F9 use a system where in the the FA blocks the access with a food cart when the cockpit door is opened. And keeps it blocked till the pilot or copilot is back in the cockpit. Thta system to me is more than handy,

FR crews activate the seatbelt signs and ensure all passengers are seated before the cockpit door is opened - for toilet breaks or to deliver food/drink etc. - the signs then remain on until the door has been closed again. An announcement is made in advance, but just the standard "The captain has switched on the fasten seatbelt sign..." obviously the real reason is not announced, although it's obvious to anyone paying attention.



Forget A vs B - Give me E or BAe any day of the week!
User currently offlinekdhurst380 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 174 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9770 times:

easyJet have a cabin crew member standing just in front of the forward lavatory facing down the aisle when the flight deck door is open.

User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9345 times:

Quoting manny (Reply 17):
Should not be a major issue. I have seen on some airlines like F9 use a system where in the the FA blocks the access with a food cart when the cockpit door is opened. And keeps it blocked till the pilot or copilot is back in the cockpit. Thta system to me is more than handy,

UA does the same thing on aircraft that do not have the barrier installed.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4238 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9152 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 2):
If the barriers are anything like those on the L-UAL 757s, the weight savings would be very minimal (more could be saved with other means).

On every single-aisle pmUA and sUA transcon I've flown on -- whether a 319 or 757 -- the Pilot and FO have come out of cockpit for relief, refreshment, or conversation. Someone always cleverly blocks the aisle. F-class passengers are expected to stay seated. If they need to use the front lavatory, then that's too bad.  


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8918 times:

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 2):

If the barriers are anything like those on the L-UAL 757s, the weight savings would be very minimal
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 14):
NW installed barriers on some 744's but they were a pain to use, broke frequently and were eventually removed.

As in anything that is mechanical, removing the equipment will save maintenance cost.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinecubastar From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 407 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4580 times:

For those who responded to my question....Thank you. I understand now. (Guess I just need to get out a little more)

User currently onlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 754 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4249 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 8):
When is the last time someone successfully broke into a cockpit the way they are currently configured? If we follow the logic that EVERYTHING we do should be done to the maximum safety standard, then EVERY airplane would be certified for ETOPS 240, but no one would ever suggest that because it makes no sense. There are too many "what ifs" to hedge the risk of everything with a safety program. Sometimes we need to say enough is enough, right?

Enough is enough I guess since terrorists don't try to rush desks.


25 Tod : Funny because DL wants to add secondary barriers to thier 330 fleet.
26 Tod : Some 744 operators prefer to move the flight deck door back, aft of the first u/d (location 4U).
27 COEWR787 : Agreed, I have seen the food cart barrier technique used on many domestic flights on UA.and even on TATL 757 flights. I am not sure what is done on 2
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
787 Flight Deck Link posted Wed Sep 7 2005 10:05:21 by HikesWithEyes
Boeing To Unveil 787 Flight Deck Today 8/31 posted Wed Aug 31 2005 17:07:20 by NYC777
Line Chat About The 787 Flight Deck Thursday 6pm PDT posted Tue Aug 30 2005 19:20:53 by Planegirl
787 Flight Deck: What Is Included? posted Tue May 3 2005 16:38:38 by BR715-A1-30
Flight Deck To Grave posted Sun Feb 19 2012 17:31:09 by flyhossd
Last UA 747 200 Flight And Routes posted Mon Oct 10 2011 05:46:15 by 747400sp
UA's First 787: Odd Rudder Color? posted Sun Sep 25 2011 15:16:07 by Airport
Bird Strike From Flight Deck.... posted Wed Jan 5 2011 20:12:44 by Alee
Official 787 Flight Test Tracking Thread - Part 5 posted Thu Oct 21 2010 00:31:59 by moderators
UA Trialing In-Flight Zune HD Rentals posted Sat Sep 4 2010 13:38:38 by ElBandGeek