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A380 As A Sub For Another Type?  
User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8197 posts, RR: 54
Posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8998 times:

There have been rare occasions when a different type has operated in place of an A380 - my friend was booked transpacific on Qantas and got a 747-400 instead of an A380, and Emirates have deployed 777-300ER when an A380 has gone tech or other operational reason.

But has an A380 ever been operated as a sub, in place of a different scheduled type?

[Edited 2012-06-20 18:07:03]


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinecheeken From Singapore, joined Feb 2010, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8647 times:

I believe that flight substitutions will always be a downguage to save on trip cost in the case of an underbooking, this increases profitibality (or reduces loss) for the airline! The one time I know of an A380 has being used as a sub was the EK incident that happened not too long ago, but it was more of an on-they-way pickup of passengers...

User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8642 times:

i can't imagine any airline having A380 spares idling on its *** to sub around at a moment's notice, even for the 744.

as the latest (and priciest) plane, the airlines are probably running the A380 to max utilization in order to recoup all that capital outlay - under the regular schedule


User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 422 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8120 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):
But has an A380 ever been operated as a sub, in place of a different scheduled type?

This was the case when AF and LH (and possibly others?) halted put other planes on their NRT flights and used the A380s for other scheduled flights to the States, e.g., LH404/405.


User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 422 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8104 times:

Also, at the moment, LH has a spare A380 until they start flights to IAH on August 1. I wonder if we'll see any more substitutions, perhaps to MIA, JFK or IAD?

User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8197 posts, RR: 54
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8041 times:

Quoting cheeken (Reply 1):
I believe that flight substitutions will always be a downguage to save on trip cost in the case of an underbooking, this increases profitability (or reduces loss) for the airline!

Maybe. My two recent subs were both upguages, my Cathay A330 SYD-HKG turned into a 747 a few years back, and in October my Thai A340-500 BKK-HND (with a.netter Eirik) turned into a 747 as well.

Would be amazing to expect a 777-300ER or a 747-400 and get to the gate and - ta da! Whalejet!

(My best sub was an Air Inter A320 that turned into my only Caravelle flight; which is nothing compared to my friend who was flying Air France AMS-CDG and his A310 turned into a Concorde positioning back to Paris after a supersonic North Sea enthusiasts charter AMS-AMS. So you see, miracles can happen!)



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 3020 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7978 times:

QF108 is usually a 744 which is operated by an A380 when QF is sending a plane to VCV. QF12 (the usual A380 flight) is cancelled.

But these flights are scheduled months out so it's not really a sub per se. I think it's the closest you'll get though.


User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 7145 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7614 times:

Plane substitutions are always going to be on a case-by-case basis. The airline is seeking to minimize costs-and flight disruptions involve substantial costs. The people making the decisions have to choose the solution to any given situation that will cause the least disruption (and angry customers.) Simple logic would indicate that with the extremely low number of A380's in service and the large number of passengers, that it would be a last resort move to substitute one for a smaller plane. But undoubtedly the situation can arise where it would be the best move.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineSEA From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6705 times:

LH have subbed the A388 for A346 and 744s at least a couple of times. Like SEPilot said above though, it really varies case by case and what's available and on hand at the time. In 2005 I ended up on a 777 subbed for an A320 SEA-DEN due to to an earlier cancelled flight. Just because it happened once though doesn't necessarily mean they'd do that again, it just meant they happened to have a 777 that was able to be repositioned quickly.

User currently offlinegoosebayguy From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5613 times:

Didn't AF sub their A320's CDG-LHR with an A380 when they first received them?

User currently onlineWarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 595 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5480 times:

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 9):
Didn't AF sub their A320's CDG-LHR with an A380 when they first received them?

The A380's were deployed as such, but I believe it was scheduled service (i.e. you could book the A380 flight) rather than the Whalejet substituting for the original equipment.



DaHjaj jaj QaQ Daghajjaj !!!!
User currently offlineSLCGuy From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5205 times:

A380 might be practical to sub for aircraft such as B744, B773 and A346 assuming the carrier had a spare available. Doubt it would be worth it for a smaller WB or NB unless the flight was absolutely needed for special reasons, again assuming one was available.

User currently onlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 7145 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5096 times:

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 11):
Doubt it would be worth it for a smaller WB or NB unless the flight was absolutely needed for special reasons, again assuming one was available.

It would probably only happen with a combination of factors, one of them involving the need to reposition the A380. And since most airports are unable to accommodate the A380, I agree that it is extremely unlikely.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinecanyonblue17 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4257 times:

I remember last year here in PBI CO/UA replaced a 752 with a 764 because it was only aircraft they had available. According to a friend of mine at CO/UA, they actually came close to replacing the 752 with a 777. So they don't always downgrade and it seems like it is more a matter of what is available.

User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4093 times:

Quoting cheeken (Reply 1):
I believe that flight substitutions will always be a downguage to save on trip cost in the case of an underbooking, this increases profitibality (or reduces loss) for the airline!

I flew ZRH-FCO more than 10 years ago. The expected A320 never showed up due to technical reasons, so instead Swissair pulled in an A330 to the gate. Nice upguage! That was my first A330 flight btw.



SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently offlineiberiadc852 From Spain, joined May 2005, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4057 times:

Substituting may not only come by having spare planes but also by switching planes on demand.

If a route with a 744 is overloaded and another by a 380 is underloades, why not changing?



variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
User currently offlineplanesailing From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 816 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 3225 times:

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 15):
Substituting may not only come by having spare planes but also by switching planes on demand.

If a route with a 744 is overloaded and another by a 380 is underloades, why not changing?

Easy in theory, difficult in practice. The problem is, crew for the 747 are already going to be down route, you are going to have to dead head crew to fly the return and then you will have to do the same again when the normal aircraft type for the route is heading down route.

I had a horrendous oversell situation once (20) and whilst it would have been logical to upscale the aircraft for that day and the two other days around that date, due to oversells, in practice it would have been more hassle that it is worth with all the differences required.

You will quite often see a short haul aircraft subbed for a long haul due to the fact if the crew are due to do the outbound and inbound sectors, it will not affect crew positioning.


User currently offlineLofty From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2574 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 6):
My best sub was an Air Inter A320 that turned into my only Caravelle flight; which is nothing compared to my friend who was flying Air France AMS-CDG and his A310 turned into a Concorde positioning back to Paris after a supersonic North Sea enthusiasts charter AMS-AMS. So you see, miracles can happen!)

BA used to use Concorde on LHR - MAN when operating a charter from MAN. I used to love asking passengers at the gate with hand baggage only if they would go on a flight that left 10mins later. Many would say no and I guess would kick themselves when they looked over at Gate 7 to see Concorde.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9820 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2505 times:

Swaps on long haul flights are rare. Usually the flights are upgauged or downgauged with notice and not swapped or subbed at the last minute. Tail swaps between airplanes in the same family are much more common. A variety of maintenance or operational reasons can cause this. A mechanical problem can cause a differently configured airplane of the same family to operate a route.

I could see an A380 being operated on a short flight as a sub due to operational reasons. A few flights cancelling due to weather or mechanical problems can cause quite a backlog.

Quoting cheeken (Reply 1):


I believe that flight substitutions will always be a downguage to save on trip cost in the case of an underbooking, this increases profitibality (or reduces loss) for the airline! The one time I know of an A380 has being used as a sub was the EK incident that happened not too long ago, but it was more of an on-they-way pickup of passengers...

Downgauging for underbooking is certainly not the only reason for a sub. Outside of swapping between an A320/A319/A321 or various 737s, I don’t see much swapping happening because of loads. It disrupts the schedule and impacts more than just one flight. Few airlines have the flexibility to do that outside of out and back narrowbody routes since it requires a large spare airplane inventory which is costly. Furthermore it is even more rare on long haul flights since the crew will not be in place to operate the flight back. Swapping between derivatives of the same airplane is a lot easier than going to a different model with different pilots.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2487 times:

Quoting cheeken (Reply 1):
I believe that flight substitutions will always be a downguage to save on trip cost in the case of an underbooking, this increases profitibality (or reduces loss) for the airline

There are many upgauges, especially when weather or other issues result in cancelled flights and a big backlog of passengers. For example, I've seen AC use 763s on YYZ-LGA in such situations.

I have been on at least 2 LX A330s and one A340 on 40-minute GVA-ZRH flights, replacing the usual A320 or A321, during peak holiday periods when they need the extra capacity and the aircraft is otherwise parked at ZRH and can easily operate a ZRH-GVA-ZRH rotation.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 3020 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2362 times:

Quoting Lofty (Reply 17):

Misquote... I'm afraid that my best sub is probably nothing more than a 744 for a 743 on a domestic QF leg...


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