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Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3123 posts, RR: 10
Posted (2 years 4 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8000 times:

In what has become a repeating predictable sequence of events another airline is turning its back on TOL. The repeating sequence of events goes as follows. No new airline service is pursued with any seriousness. If a airline such as Direct Air or Vision or whoever knocks on the door and offers a route TOL accepts with great fanfare. Said service is kept a secret. In other words no advertising or promotion is put forth that might draw fliers. The airline that showed up at the door is "expected" to do everything for themselves because as has been proven in a lengthy history the TOL "administration" is not going to take their feet off the desk and put forth any effort with the city or the community.

At most other regional airports there is a joint effort to achieve a strong flier base of strength via a planned outreach to the community to ascertain destinations they would like coupled with a concerted effort to attain flier support for such a route. RFD is a good example where a strong connection between the airport and the community was established and flier support measured. I specifically recall Allegiant being impressed with this kind of effort which produced results that RFD could literally hand to Allegiant as proof of support for air service.

It is also known that the TOL "administration" repeatedly blames the economy, high fuel prices, and the nearby DTW for the cause of their lack of air service. I have always found this humerous since smaller airports such as MBL and APN are constantly at work to achieve new air service. MBL lost Frontier service to MKE but in just about a month acquired new regional jet service to MDW. APN, again a much smaller airport than TOL will lose Delta to DTW when APN finds another carrier. There is now a high possibility that APN will acquire better air service than they had because of the hard work that they are doing to pursue air service.

Despite being near CLE and PIT I don't see CAK doing all that bad in this same economy coupled with fuel prices where they are as well. I don't need to go into detail the success that FNT, LAN is experiencing in the current economic climate.

It has been suggested that TOL is trying to attain service from Frontier to DEN. Since this possibility was hinted in the media I doubt if I could list all the cities that have in fact been officially informed that they are going to receive Frontier service. TOL has yet to acquire this service and has been totally silent on this as they were with a previous effort to secure service to New York.

What I am trying to show here is the obvious contrast in effort between TOL and other regional airports even those that are significantly smaller than TOL. The contrast in the results are significant.

This background information on the usual sequence of events as it relates to the TOL approach on the subject brings us to this story in the local Toledo paper today. I am sure you will now be able to see how it fits right in with what I have outlined above.

Courtesy: The Toledo Blade

Vision Airlines Pulls Out Of Toledo After Less Than A Month

http://www.toledoblade.com/business/...oledo-after-less-than-a-month.html

[Edited 2012-06-21 11:02:53]

62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBluYonder From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7875 times:

Well....I'm not so sure TOL or any airport would be wise to stick their neck out for the likes of Direct Air or Vison. They can't keep them out, but they might not be the kind of airline they want to stake their reputation on. If I was an Airport Director with Vision service, I think I'd want to keep them at arms length until they prove that the past doesn't always repeat itself.

User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3123 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7814 times:

Quoting BluYonder (Reply 1):
Well....I'm not so sure TOL or any airport would be wise to stick their neck out for the likes of Direct Air or Vison.

In both of these cases there is no neck to stick out. TOL is not worried about the risks associated with these airlines. TOL likes these airlines because they approach them with service whether reliable or not. They like them because they are the kind you don't have to lift a finger to attain.


User currently offlinemikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7657 times:

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
It has been suggested that TOL is trying to attain service from Frontier to DEN. Since this possibility was hinted in the media I doubt if I could list all the cities that have in fact been officially informed that they are going to receive Frontier service. TOL has yet to acquire this service and has been totally silent on this as they were with a previous effort to secure service to New York.

F9 was awarded a SCASD grant for TOL service but never announced that service was actually going to start. SCASD grants go unused all the time.


User currently offlineN202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1562 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 5 days ago) and read 7513 times:

Vision Air seems about as directionless as TOL here. Someone needs to rebrand and refocus them before they spend their way into insolvency.

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7367 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 5 days ago) and read 7401 times:

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):

In what has become a repeating predictable sequence of events another airline is turning its back on TOL.

I'd say it was customers that turned their back on TOL and that's how it got that way in the first place. It should be more expensive to fly out of a place with few flights and no economies of scale. People would rather save a dollar and hop on I-75.


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7693 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7326 times:

Sounds as Vision did not do their homework.

IMO, a route dropped that soon is a route that should not have been started.


User currently offlineATLgaUSA From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7223 times:

TOL may find itself without airline service altogether if the folks running the place don't change what they're doing.

User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6500 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7214 times:

Did G4 serve TOL?-------


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12119 posts, RR: 49
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7020 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The problem with TOL is the simple fact that DTW is just up the road and for parts of TOL you might actually be closer to DTW. And you can most likely fly nonstop from DTW over connecting from TOL.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3770 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7008 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 8):

Did G4 serve TOL?-------

G4 currently serves TOL-PIE/SFB.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7693 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6955 times:

Last photo in the index was 2005.

Not sure why.


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6500 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6864 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 10):

For how long?

If that service is working, they should worry more about keeping a proven carrier like G4 than the likes of Direct Air



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3297 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6835 times:

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
another airline is turning its back on TOL.

The TOL community never embraced the service. But then again I've never seen the attraction of flying to MYR.

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
MBL and APN are constantly at work to achieve new air service.

Neither are in spitting distance of a major world hub.

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
Despite being near CLE and PIT I don't see CAK doing all that bad in this same economy

CAK has economy of scale and years of success getting people to drive down to CAK. East side of CLE is just as far from CLE as it is from CAK. YNG area flyers are evenly split between CAK and PIT. CAK isn't run as a patronage favor to democrats like TOL is. CAK has an independant airport board and is run like a business.

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 3):
F9 was awarded a SCASD grant for TOL service but never announced that service was actually going to start.

F9 was not awarded the grant. TOL was, with hopes of attracting F9. Sad when F9, which seems to like subsidies, won't fly to TOL. But as others point out the last SCASD grant (for service to NYC) went for naught.

TOL waived all fess for Vision. Hopefully they've waived them for AA as well.


User currently offlineASFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1182 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6773 times:

I'm baffled that this surprises anyone. Vision has a history of opening and closing markets overnight. That, with TOL's seeming disinterest in securing any kind of reputable airline service, wasn't a good combination to start out with.

User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4605 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6589 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 5):
I'd say it was customers that turned their back on TOL and that's how it got that way in the first place. It should be more expensive to fly out of a place with few flights and no economies of scale. People would rather save a dollar and hop on I-75.

I don't really see how an airline can expect positive results immediately in a market like TOL with only 5 weeks advanced notice of service. Not to mention the introductory fares were $99 one way versus the fire sale they did 2 weeks ago of $29 one way. Most airlines are going to have a bunch of throw away flights the first couple of weeks (or so) of service as they get introduced to the community. There is little reason to not have extremely aggressive fares to kick off to get people to try the service first. Now granted the level of service has not won many good reviews...9 hour delays and such hurt. Regardless, in TOL you are going up against 95% leakage to DTW and essentially competing against NK and DL. TOL can be very successful in its own right, but it is going to take the proper approach to capture the market.

Quoting ATLgaUSA (Reply 7):
TOL may find itself without airline service altogether if the folks running the place don't change what they're doing.

AA seems pretty stable and G4 is satisfied with what they have. If the Port is actually doing something right, they would be talking to them to launch PGD for the winter travel season. AA at the end of the day treats TOL as a destination and does very little TOL originating traffic. It is a high yield market for them and from the sounds of it many of their pax are elite status travelers.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 12):
For how long?

If that service is working, they should worry more about keeping a proven carrier like G4 than the likes of Direct Air

G4 has been serving TOL for 7 years this winter. I agree they need to retrench and boost G4 service up significantly.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 13):
The TOL community never embraced the service. But then again I've never seen the attraction of flying to MYR.

Some how YNG does very well to MYR on G4...but that is G4 too. Of course it is hard to embrace air service with the rapid announcement/start up timeline they did. This was nothing like when G4 swooped in right after TMA when belly up and grabbed a market that was essentially active.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 13):
CAK isn't run as a patronage favor to democrats like TOL is. CAK has an independant airport board and is run like a business.

I think the leadership of the Port would love to get rid of managing the airport. Then problem is you know the recycled career politicians that control your local community would just reappoint their buddies to the new airport authority. It also seems that the best option would be to let a private company take it over.

The TOL market has proven that it will support nearly 700k passengers a year...I think the last study had the total market size around 1.2-1.5M pax a year. That city use to be very strong for Delta and US Airways but did very little to keep them around. Yes everyone drives to Detroit...but it can be reversed some. However it is going to take attractive fares and nonstop service to quality business/leisure destinations.

I agree with you on the AA front. They need to ensure they retain them to keep connected to traditional airline network.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 14):
I'm baffled that this surprises anyone. Vision has a history of opening and closing markets overnight. That, with TOL's seeming disinterest in securing any kind of reputable airline service, wasn't a good combination to start out with.

I think those of us had hoped it would last a little longer than it did, which it could have with more advanced notice for vacation planners. The one take away is that they were generating around 40-45 passengers from TOL on their flights with very little effort. I would imagine G4 could do much better with their proven talent at stimulating markets once thought unheard of.


User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3123 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5064 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 9):
The problem with TOL is the simple fact that DTW is just up the road
Quoting toltommy (Reply 13):
Neither are in spitting distance of a major world hub.

This is one of the excuses that the TOL "administration" enjoys using to justifiy failure. In my initial post at the top I am pointing out that I am contrasting effort. All of you know that it takes effort to do your job. Repeated failure is not part of the job. The big reason I mentioned the two smaller markets MBL and APN was not because of whether they were or were not near a major hub which we all know they are not. The reason I did bring them into the discussion is specfically because of the effort they put forth. This is the main point I am trying to put across here. Many of these regional airports smaller or of equal size to TOL are putting forth strategic and a well honed effort to achieve a result regardless of whether they are near a major hub or not. They believe they are paid to do a job and achieve results and they are.

These people know that no one is going to hold them accountable for anything. The city, the local media or even local fliers never question these results in contrast to what is being achieved elsewhere.

As far as the airport itself goes I believe it can easily meet the needs of the community. TOL has a 10,600 ft., main runway and a 5599 ft., cross-wind runway. The terminal is a somewhat dated 1950ish structure however it has been remodeled a few times and contains sufficient jetways for several airlines. There is definitely a potential there if the creativity and will-power was in place.

Again, the fact that DTW is just up the road should not even be a factor or excuse in management's quest to provide air service for that airport. To do so is simply surrender pure and simple. It has never been the attitude at RFD or FNT or any other airport that happens to be near a major hub. They have historically moved forward with strategic thinking which leads to a plan which they then initiate and don't turn back but remain in forward motion. Clearly thats what is needed in this instance. Excuses shouldn't be tolerated because all that matters is results. If results aren't achieved on a repeated basis as we see in this instance than a change in leadership is in order.

[Edited 2012-06-22 08:40:56]

User currently offlineYNGguins From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 511 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4965 times:

Quoting toltommy (Reply 13):
CAK has economy of scale and years of success getting people to drive down to CAK. East side of CLE is just as far from CLE as it is from CAK. YNG area flyers are evenly split between CAK and PIT. CAK isn't run as a patronage favor to democrats like TOL is. CAK has an independant airport board and is run like a business.

This may shock some people on here, but the leakage of the YNG catchment breaks down like this:
PIT - 49%
CLE - 33%
DTW - 11%
CAK - 7%

This information will likely be available in the YNG SCASD grant once it goes up. The only logical reason for this has to be the International departures out of DTW. However contrary to popular belief, CAK gets very little of the YNG catchment area; PIT remains the dominant airport of choice, mainly because the growth of the Mahoning Valley has been to the south along 680 and I-76 which makes it an 1:10 minute drive for that portion of our area.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 15):
Some how YNG does very well to MYR on G4...but that is G4 too. Of course it is hard to embrace air service with the rapid announcement/start up timeline they did. This was nothing like when G4 swooped in right after TMA when belly up and grabbed a market that was essentially active.

What helped YNG was Vacation Express running in here and operating MYR 4x back in 2005. It was very successful and helped give Allegiant data on the market. Starting today, the YNG-MYR service expands to 4x. Last year YNG was the top Allegiant Air city in loads and yields to MYR.

Now the hope is that YNG will get service tp PGD with Allegiant this fall. I think what has helped YNG has been the fact we have stuck with Allegiant and not started service with a Direct Air or a Vision to some other cities we may want. Allegiant is mighty popular in our area and we have won back most of our AirTran leakage that went to MCO and TPA out of CAK and PIT. In some ways, the excitement around AirTran at CAK is similar to the excitement of Allegiant at YNG... even despite some of the baggage fees.

I wish TOL the very best in the future as a city and metro area that large should have a decent amount of airline service, at least in my eyes.



I am PROUD to live in the greatest country on earth: The United States of America!
User currently offlinefreeze3192 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4744 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 11):

Last photo in the index was 2005.

Not sure why.

There have been plenty of photos taken of TOL in the past 7 years. A lot of on the FlyTOL facbeook page. The reason there's no updated photos is that the screeners want little to do with new photographers and getting a new photo in the database is like trying to win the lottery without buying a ticket.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 9):

The problem with TOL is the simple fact that DTW is just up the road and for parts of TOL you might actually be closer to DTW. And you can most likely fly nonstop from DTW over connecting from TOL.

Not an excuse. There are plenty of other airports close to major hubs that are able to sustain airline service with established LCCs and legacies. CAK, FNT, YNG, RFD are all prime examples.

The problem with TOL is the management. Inept, inexperienced, too busy worrying about their downtown seaport and other random clean up projects. The Port Authority has little interest in the airport as it just doesn't make enough money compared to the other projects. The PA has little knowledge of how airports are to be managed and has no idea what it takes to secure air service. What TOL needs is new management that seeks to futher the airport, not just lump along waiting for something to fall in their lap and constantly complain about the economy, fuel prices (closed below $80/bbl yesteday, btw) and airlines cutting flights. TOL needs to wake up stop making excuses.

TOL definitely has potential, it just needs the right leadership. CAK is in the same position and is thriving while TOL makes excuses.



"A passenger bets his life that his pilot is a worthy heir to an ancient tradition of excellence and professionalism."
User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3297 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4628 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 15):
Yes everyone drives to Detroit...but it can be reversed some. However it is going to take attractive fares and nonstop service to quality business/leisure destinations.

There's the rub. For years now, TOL has been marketed as "cheap flights to XXX". If Vision had offered $29 airfares to begin with, the flight would've been full. But instead they offered $99 airfares, and thats not cheap enough for TOL flyers. The airlines that offer service to quality business/leisure destinations want a decent return on their investment, or they'll put their planes elsewhere. At this point, can TOL show that any carrier would make more money starting service to TOL than someplace else? I've been saying this for years, and the answer has yet to change. The answer is no.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 15):
The TOL market has proven that it will support nearly 700k passengers a year...I think the last study had the total market size around 1.2-1.5M pax a year.

I don't trust those studies at all. You can draw the circle big enough to get the results you want, but it doesn't mean that customer is going to drive to TOL from GRR. A certain former air service manager at TOL was very good at drawing big unrealistic circles.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 16):
Again, the fact that DTW is just up the road should not even be a factor or excuse in management's quest to provide air service for that airport.

But sadly it is. The Port Authority has no idea what to do with the place, make a suggestion, and you'll get told "we tried that once" from the highest levels of the Port Authority.


User currently offlineJasonCRH From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 300 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4526 times:

If there were truly a market there, then airlines would be there serving it, regardless of the TOL administration and their shortcomings, period.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 16):
This is one of the excuses that the TOL "administration" enjoys using to justifiy failure. In my initial post at the top I am pointing out that I am contrasting effort. All of you know that it takes effort to do your job. Repeated failure is not part of the job. The big reason I mentioned the two smaller markets MBL and APN was not because of whether they were or were not near a major hub which we all know they are not. The reason I did bring them into the discussion is specfically because of the effort they put forth. This is the main point I am trying to put across here. Many of these regional airports smaller or of equal size to TOL are putting forth strategic and a well honed effort to achieve a result regardless of whether they are near a major hub or not. They believe they are paid to do a job and achieve results and they are.

These people know that no one is going to hold them accountable for anything. The city, the local media or even local fliers never question these results in contrast to what is being achieved elsewhere.

As far as the airport itself goes I believe it can easily meet the needs of the community. TOL has a 10,600 ft., main runway and a 5599 ft., cross-wind runway. The terminal is a somewhat dated 1950ish structure however it has been remodeled a few times and contains sufficient jetways for several airlines. There is definitely a potential there if the creativity and will-power was in place.

Again, the fact that DTW is just up the road should not even be a factor or excuse in management's quest to provide air service for that airport. To do so is simply surrender pure and simple. It has never been the attitude at RFD or FNT or any other airport that happens to be near a major hub. They have historically moved forward with strategic thinking which leads to a plan which they then initiate and don't turn back but remain in forward motion. Clearly thats what is needed in this instance. Excuses shouldn't be tolerated because all that matters is results. If results aren't achieved on a repeated basis as we see in this instance than a change in leadership is in order.


User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3297 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4443 times:

Quoting freeze3192 (Reply 18):
There are plenty of other airports close to major hubs that are able to sustain airline service with established LCCs and legacies. CAK, FNT, YNG, RFD are all prime examples.

Not that this is an excuse, but not exactly.

CAK is as close to major population areas in CLE. The drive from eastern suburbs of CLE to CAK takes just as long as the drive to CLE itself.

FNT is closer to the northern suburbs of DTW than DTW is, and has easier highway access. Most of metro DTW would drive past DTW to get to TOL.

RFD and YNG have not been able to sustain legacy service. RFD has done a little better than YNG, but has a much bigger population base.


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1250 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4389 times:

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 16):
Again, the fact that DTW is just up the road should not even be a factor or excuse in management's quest to provide air service for that airport. To do so is simply surrender pure and simple. It has never been the attitude at RFD or FNT

With all due respect, the position that TOL's failures are wholly to blame on a sleepy airport management team is largely a product of several overzealous a.net users.

Some of the comparisons to TOL are silly. Both TOL and RFD have Allegiant. And RFD has endured many years of failure; F9's service to DEN began barely six months ago and time will judge its performance. Some of the other airports you mention have solely EAS service whereas TOL maintains network service via AA to ORD.

And what about FNT? Sure, DL's operated M88 to ATL, but the combined NW-DL operation is operating 30% fewer capacity than it did pre-merger. AE's service to ORD has held steady at three flights after peaking at four, with little hope for the daily flight to DFW to return. And FL's recently cut a flight to ATL and is currently operating solely 717 after using the 73G nearly exclusively into FNT for several years. With the WN buyout, who knows what FNT will look like in several years. (Let's not also forget FNT lost its link to MKE after many years, although it's not surprising given the situation with F9.) And the winter vacation charters that were an emblem of FNT for many years? Gone. Sure, FNT enjoyed success for most of the 2000s, but the days of service to places like LGA are behind us.

Ultimately, you cannot blame the TOL market's willingness to drive to DTW on TOL's management. DTW will always be able to provide better schedules and more nonstop flights with lower fares than TOL. And it's less than an hour away for most of the market. Sure beats sitting in ATL for two...



Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
User currently offlineKDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4363 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 9):
The problem with TOL is the simple fact that DTW is just up the road and for parts of TOL you might actually be closer to DTW. And you can most likely fly nonstop from DTW over connecting from TOL.


I see this as the fundamental problem for any airline serving TOL.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7367 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4360 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 12):
f that service is working, they should worry more about keeping a proven carrier like G4 than the likes of Direct Air

Very true.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 13):
CAK has economy of scale and years of success getting people to drive down to CAK. East side of CLE is just as far from CLE as it is from CAK.
Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 15):
TOL can be very successful in its own right, but it is going to take the proper approach to capture the market.
Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 16):
Again, the fact that DTW is just up the road should not even be a factor or excuse in management's quest to provide air service for that airport.
Quoting toltommy (Reply 21):
FNT is closer to the northern suburbs of DTW than DTW is, and has easier highway access. Most of metro DTW would drive past DTW to get to TOL.

The real problem for TOL is that there is absolutely nothing on I-75/275 South of the DL mega hub. It is just open land within a mile of the airport. Thus, there is really nothing for TOL to draw from. The geography just doesn't work. Being on the South end of town just makes it that much easier to draw from TOL. It's part of why FNT exists. It has the opposite situation, where it is marginally closer to some areas.


25 freeze3192 : Thanks for your great input concerning the subject matter. Hows life at 1 Maritime Plaza?[Edited 2012-06-22 12:24:12]
26 KarlB737 : "Several" people can't all be wrong. If you return to my Reply 16 to the first paragraph you will also note that I said this: One of the things I am
27 toltommy : Have you ever met any of the Toledo Port Authority brain trust? It's nothing but patronage, and the airport is an afterthought. The "airport committe
28 Post contains images CompensateMe : While I personally have never conversed with any current or previous member of the Toledo Port Authority, I have heard many positive things about the
29 Kcrwflyer : I don't understand how so many armchair airport execs get on here and beat TOL up. You can give an airline all the gold in the world and perform all t
30 Post contains images ouboy79 : So a similar situation with G4 on TOL to Vegas and Sanford. TMA had the market active and G4 was able to take it over pretty well. Delta and AirTran
31 KarlB737 : "With all due respect" I am bewildered that you trust "hearsay" yet push aside repeated failures. I'll tell you what how about asking your "colleague
32 Post contains links KarlB737 : Straight from The Alpena News. Skywest will provide CRJ service to both DTW & MSP. And look it appears that the community was involved -- what a
33 CompensateMe : Alpena's in the middle of nowhere; much of Toledo is closer to DTW than DTW's furthest suberbs. And we're discussing EAS service. If TOL lost its sch
34 KarlB737 : CompensateMe you're still missing the main point. My main post is simply this: I am contrasting an effort. Take the size of the city and nearness to
35 Kcrwflyer : You compare TOL to an EAS city? I guess BKW admin and their 4 pax per flight over to IAD are doing an excellent job too. United " We serve TOL from D
36 toltommy : There would be no EAS subsidy at TOL. It's far too close to DTW to qualify. Shhhhh don't say that out loud. Toledo city council is always looking for
37 CompensateMe : Let's try another approach: Since the turn of the Millenium, among major airlines, TOL has had, and subsequently lost, service from Continental (ende
38 ouboy79 : So do you work for Sixel Consulting? LOL That brilliant firm that has handled air service development since they eliminated the internal development
39 KarlB737 : Kcrwflyer if only a couple of isolated cases of airlines were lost questions might be asked. Maybe a few management types might sit around at a table
40 JasonCRH : Okay, then. Seriously, derision is not needed nor is it respectful. If there were a market, at a fare high enough, and if an airline had no better opp
41 F9animal : Am I the only one frustrated at how Vision operates? Who in their right mind could trust booking on them with a reputation of pulling out just as fast
42 CompensateMe : TOL's management HAS been successful in attracting and marketing new service. I'll ask again: what do you want (expect) the Port Authority to do, pas
43 freeze3192 : And what new service is that? Last time I checked, we're still down to Eagle and Allegiant. Vision doesn't count because they came to TOL, not the ot
44 ouboy79 : For the sake of full disclosure, and since you avoided that question, please state here what your relationship is to the Toledo Lucas County Port Aut
45 michman : How does an anecdotal example of a single flight prove anything? Yes, there may be some cases were TOL can offer more convenient scheduling through t
46 toltommy : Here's what it comes down to. The Toledo Port Authority is political. Population is leaving the city and fleeing to the suburbs of Lucas County, or t
47 ouboy79 : Someone is pretty defensive. Here let me explain my point a bit further since I apparently offended your beloved DTW. It was to point out it should n
48 Post contains images toltommy : It probably would be better to be a "Northwest Ohio Port Authority", but again it means that the entrenched power in Lucas County would have to likel
49 Post contains images ouboy79 : Oh if only Carty was still around, I would love to see the tantrum he would throw. Looking at the list of people on the board, exactly which one has
50 freeze3192 : That's exactly what I'm talking about. Not one of these guys knows what they're doing. They're all bankers, entrepreneurs and financial people. Sorry
51 CompensateMe : I have no relationship with TOL. Network planners don't take decisions to reduce low-frequency markets lightly. If such decision is made to further i
52 freeze3192 : Sure sounds like a canned Port response to me. Fuel is under $80 PER BARREL right now. High? Yeah. Okay.
53 CompensateMe : You do realize the per-passenger cost of $2.75/gallon jet fuel, especially on a 50-seat jet?
54 flyinryan99 : Oh really? From others here...especially jetlanta...Delta could *never* make TOL work....what is it? Ehhh....they were concerned over 2010 and 2011 w
55 CompensateMe : Is there a conspiracy to rid TOL of scheduled air service? Did TOL pay off several airlines to discontinue service perhaps? FL merely reduced its twi
56 Post contains links ouboy79 : We've always discussed that in the past here and on the local forum. My personal opinion the SCASD grant would be better spent on an eastern US conne
57 freeze3192 : Oh, sure I do. But that's nowhere near the $148/bbl cost that we hit in 2008. The airlines are smart, they've figured out how to make money on 50 sea
58 kcrwflyer : That must be why DL is parking as many as they possibly can. All of the money being made with them.
59 MLI717fan : The average load from Jan-Mar of this year was 54.12%, so those must be pretty incredible yields to warrant flying a fuel guzzling ERD around with 23
60 ouboy79 : Here are Eagle's passengers numbers from TOL through last month... January 2012 - American Airlines (Operated by American Connection and American Eag
61 MLI717fan : Thanks for the info. That's more usable than what's available from TranStats. Hopefully the loads will continue to increase, otherwise they may not b
62 Post contains links ouboy79 : From what I've heard they are pretty happy with the 4th flight. So all things look good. It is funny to think at one point TOL-CHI had 3 airlines ope
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