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Why No US – Mexico Border Cities N/S Air Service?  
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8633 times:

With a lot of commerce between the U.S. and Mexico along the border, and air service growing, a curious fact seems to be that there is no nonstop air service from the U.S. and 5 cities in Mexico that are on the U.S. border and have commercial airports. These five cities are Tijuana (TIJ), with a population of 1.8M, Mexicali (MXL) pop. 1M, Ciudad Juarez (CJS) pop. 1.5M, Nuevo Laredo (NLD) pop. 600K and Reynosa (REX) pop 500K.

I believe that Y4 tried service between OAK-TIJ, and this barely lasted a year. This one couldn’t work?

Do most of those from the U.S. fly to the nearest U.S. airport – such as SAN for Tijuana or ELP for Ciudad Juarez and then just cross the land border? Or does a Mexican national who is in Tijuana who wants to fly to Chicago cross the border as well and then fly from SAN? It would seem easier just to deal with customs, etc, at the airports.

It seems there’s enough commerce of late as well to warrant some business traffic as well. Or is maybe the drug related border violence keeps the U.S. carriers out of these airports? And if so, then why not the Mexican carriers, since they're there already?

At any rate, its seems as though maybe a DEN-TIJ, or DEN-CJS flight could work. Or maybe an ORD-TIJ or ORD-CJS flight as well. Or maybe DFW-NLD, or DFW-REX, or DFW-MXL, and make these work with connects like they probably do with a lot of the AA Mexico flights that they have there?

Just curious here as to why none of these Mexican border cities have no flights into the U.S.? And I mean none. It seems that at least a couple or so flights here or there could do well.

 



[Edited 2012-06-21 19:12:09]

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5347 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8564 times:

As you suggested, I think most people like to stick with domestic flights on either side of the border; they're cheaper and and much easier. We in SAN have issues with Mexico flights being successful since there are so many domestic Mexican flights out of TIJ. And it would be very duplicative to have service from TIJ to US hubs since everything is already offered via Lindbergh Field.

bb


User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5890 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8562 times:
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The US-Mexico border towns are amongst the most dangerous cities because of the Cartel violence. That pretty much shut down a lot of the tourism to those cities. There are even federal advisories stating if you no business in the border towns, do not travel there.

Yes...Y4 tried OAK-TIJ, mainly for the connection traffic to rest of Mexico. Allegro Air also briefly tried OAK-TIJ.

Back in the 1980's, I flew LAX-TIJ on an AM DC-9-30 with a whopping 11 people on board.


User currently offlinetharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1861 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8502 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 1):
I think most people like to stick with domestic flights on either side of the border; they're cheaper and and much easier.

But is it still easier when you factor in having to cross the border by car?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24803 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8430 times:

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 2):
Back in the 1980's, I flew LAX-TIJ on an AM DC-9-30 with a whopping 11 people on board.

The Aeromexico DC-9-32 that collided in mid-air with a Piper Cherokee over Cerritos, about 25 miles southeast of LAX, in August 1986, was en route from TIJ to LAX. All 64 on the DC-9, the 3 in the Cherokee, and 15 people on the ground, were killed. The DC-9 was on a 3-stop flight MEX-GDL-LTO (Loreto)-TIJ-LAX. I believe 19 of the 58 passengers boarded in TIJ.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19860831-0

It was the aircraft below.


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User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8367 times:

As SANFan mentioned above, for border cities like TIJ it makes a lot better sense for people wanting to go to Mexico to use TIJ and for people wanting to fly to the US, Europe or Asia to use SAN or LAX.

Yes, the border wait can be a drag, but lots of people are willing to overlook that if it means saving a few bucks or having more options.

People on the Mexican side of the border are used to long border waits so crossing the border to catch a flight at SAN or LAX isn't really that much trouble. Most people here in the Tijuana region use SAN if they want to go to the US or Overseas.

There are people on the US side that do not like crossing and/or prefer the convenience of nonstop service into SAN, but unfortunately not enough to sustain much nonstop service outside of AS and now Volaris. Besides nonstop service, there is always the option of connecting at LAX or PHX.

Those willing to cross from San Diego to Tijuana (and it will get easier once the new cross border terminal opens), can enjoy pretty much the biggest selection of nonstops available to any US city outside of Houston. And people from Tijuana have unparalleled access to US destinations and beyond through SAN and LAX.


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1946 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8364 times:

Does anyone want to fly to those cities? Honest question, not snark!

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8315 times:

Quoting SR117 (Reply 5):
the border wait can be a drag,
Quoting tharanga (Reply 3):
But is it still easier when you factor in having to cross the border by car?

My line of thinking......

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 6):
Does anyone want to fly to those cities? Honest question, not snark!

There are probably some businesses along the border on the Mexico side that would warrant some travel, along with the VFR traffic. A lot of people think that Tijuana is a fun place to be. But other than that, yes, I can see your point. But this is in no offense to anyone in these cities or along the border, there just are a lot of places in the world that people just don't really want to go to.....

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 2):
Back in the 1980's, I flew LAX-TIJ on an AM DC-9-30 with a whopping 11 people on board.

Well, right sizing aircraft would be helpful here. I mean, not even a few small props (although it looks like those are being phased out with time as well)? I left out LAX..... maybe a couple of small props into TIJ or MXL would be enough to give some air service, and save the hassle of a land crossing. I could imagine a good amount of O&D here, is what an airline would want, and then at least LAX has lots of connects. LAX flies to SAN, CLD, IPL, YUM, all short distances, why not TIJ and MXL? Maybe the same can be done from PHX and LAS?

Just thinking that somehow there's some money being left on the table here?

 

[Edited 2012-06-21 20:25:38]

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17330 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8189 times:

Quoting point2point (Thread starter):
Just curious here as to why none of these Mexican border cities have no flights into the U.S.?

It costs about $80-100 in taxes just to cross the border roundtrip via air before you pay a cent of airfare, so in the case of SAN, you can fly DENSAN for say, $300 or DENTIJ for $380, and the airline gets the same revenue in both cases. Next to no one is willing to pay $100 merely to cross a border--those markets are simply priced out of existence.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1522 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8148 times:

You literally couldn't pay me enough to fly to one of those places. I avoid the current Mexico towns we fly to already, and they're resort towns and allegedly "safe".

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8146 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
It costs about $80-100 in taxes just to cross the border roundtrip via air before you pay a cent of airfare, so in the case of SAN, you can fly DENSAN for say, $300 or DENTIJ for $380, and the airline gets the same revenue in both cases. Next to no one is willing to pay $100 merely to cross a border--those markets are simply priced out of existence.

Ah ha! Now we're getting somewhere.

Please answer if this one way, one charge, or is it $160-$200 being charged total for roundtrip? If it's just $80-$100 just one way, one time, then travelers now have to factor in the cost of crossing by land, twice. After all, travelers don't DENSAN and save $80-$100 and then just snap fingers and end up in their destination across the border in Tijuana, or vice-versa in Tijuana...... Money, then time, then other hassles have to be calculated.

Okay.... so now a traveler has to think, eh?

 


User currently offlineSANMAN66 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 785 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8123 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 7):
Well, right sizing aircraft would be helpful here. I mean, not even a few small props (although it looks like those are being phased out with time as well)? I left out LAX..... maybe a couple of small props into TIJ or MXL would be enough to give some air service, and save the hassle of a land crossing. I could imagine a good amount of O&D here, is what an airline would want, and then at least LAX has lots of connects. LAX flies to SAN, CLD, IPL, YUM, all short distances, why not TIJ and MXL? Maybe the same can be done from PHX and LAS?

Just thinking that somehow there's some money being left on the table here?

Several years ago DL connection tried running LAX-TIJ using rj's, I can't remember if they actually
started the flight, or it was never launched. I believe U.S.-TIJ flights don't work because of the proximity
to SAN and SAN has only limited Mexico flights because of the same reason. I guess the airlines believe
if you want a big selection of Mexico flights, simply go to TIJ, whereas if someone wants to fly to the U.S.,
Canada, or Europe, go to SAN.

[Edited 2012-06-21 21:30:04]


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User currently offlineSANMAN66 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 785 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8100 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
It costs about $80-100 in taxes just to cross the border roundtrip via air before you pay a cent of airfare, so in the case of SAN, you can fly DENSAN for say, $300 or DENTIJ for $380, and the airline gets the same revenue in both cases. Next to no one is willing to pay $100 merely to cross a border--those markets are simply priced out of existence.

I guess I posted too early. That's interesting. I didn't know about the extra taxes.



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User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5890 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8018 times:
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Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 6):
Does anyone want to fly to those cities? Honest question, not snark!

Back in the day, TJ (known by San Diegans) used to be quite a tourist attraction and really not a bad place to visit. The drug Cartels really screwed that up and I don't know if TJ will ever recover because of that.

Quoting point2point (Reply 7):
Well, right sizing aircraft would be helpful here.

During the early 1990's, Air LA flew Metros between LAX and TIJ.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6708 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7976 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 10):
Please answer if this one way, one charge, or is it $160-$200 being charged total for roundtrip? If it's just $80-$100 just one way, one time, then travelers now have to factor in the cost of crossing by land, twice. After all, travelers don't DENSAN and save $80-$100 and then just snap fingers and end up in their destination across the border in Tijuana, or vice-versa in Tijuana...... Money, then time, then other hassles have to be calculated.

I believe he was fairly clear:

Quoting point2point (Reply 10):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
It costs about $80-100 in taxes just to cross the border roundtrip via air

Now, you talk about factoring in time: Time is an important factor. Domestic air travel markets are going to be, with few exceptions, much denser than transborder markets. So a market like ELP-DFW is going to be an order of magnitude (or more) larger than CJS-DFW -- the same is true of TIJ-MEX vs. SAN-MEX. Consequently, the domestic route can support far greater frequency -- and the land border crossing will be worth it for the convenience of greater selection in flight times. And typically residents of cities along the border will be fairly familiar with the patterns of wait times at the border and will be able to plan around that. That doesn't even take into account the added convenience of far more non-stop domestic markets at the border city -- i.e. a non-stop from EWR to SAN vs. a connection at DEN to TIJ.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7935 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
I believe he was fairly clear:

ooops......correct, sorry.......

Who collects the extra charges?


 


User currently offlineCapEd388 From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 7916 times:

Quoting point2point (Thread starter):
or DFW-REX,

I live in the McAllen area, which borders Reynosa and let me tell you, that city is in terrible shape, one of cities with most violence. I frankly dont think there is enough demand to support a DFW-REX route. Especially when MFE is 10-20 minutes away.



388 346 77W 787
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2346 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7861 times:

While not exactly on the border, I think PPE stands a more reasonable chance of air service with a bigger tourist draw than any of the border cities.


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User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7811 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 17):
PPE

It looks as this is on the water, between the Baja Peninsula and the rest of Mexico. It doesn't have any commercial air service, from what I can tell, does it? Beaches must be beautiful there though?

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 16):
Reynosa and let me tell you, that city is in terrible shape, one of cities with most violence. I frankly dont think there is enough demand to support a DFW-REX route.

That bad, eh? Doesn't sound like that would work.

 


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2346 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7632 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 18):

It looks as this is on the water, between the Baja Peninsula and the rest of Mexico. It doesn't have any commercial air service, from what I can tell, does it? Beaches must be beautiful there though?

Yes, its on the coast at the top of the sea of Cortez, but Mexico treats it as an special economic corridor(I forgot the name of it) to act like a virtual border town. While it doesn't have commercial air service currently, the new airport is ready once the economy picks up. I think AM or one of the other Mexican carriers were considering service to LAX and/or PHX before the economy nosedived.

My mom lives in Las Cruces, NM(50 miles west of ELP) and all you hear about is the killing that goes on in Juarez. The border towns are now nothing more than junctions for drugs to the US and guns to Mexico. You never really hear anything like that about PPE.

The beaches are nice, but not quite as beautiful as those in CUN.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4229 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6870 times:
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Quoting point2point (Thread starter):
ELP for Ciudad Juarez and then just cross the land border?

Judging from the number of "State of Chihuahua" license plates in El Paso shopping centers, restaurant parking lots, and even at McDonald's, I'd say folks in Juarez only fly to Mexican destinations from their own airport -- and only 7 destinations are served from CJS.


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4229 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6842 times:
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Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 19):
My mom lives in Las Cruces, NM(50 miles west of ELP) and all you hear about is the killing that goes on in Juarez. The border towns are now nothing more than junctions for drugs to the US and guns to Mexico

If you've ever been through ELP 's weird two-story TSA setup, you might get the impression something was amiss.   


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4229 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6806 times:
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Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 13):
Back in the day, TJ (known by San Diegans) used to be quite a tourist attraction and really not a bad place to visit.

Now folks come across the border to shop in the San Ysidro (tax-free) enterprise zone.  


User currently offlineplanesavvy From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6602 times:

Out of interest, how much of the reverse is there, ie US border towns with flights to other parts of Mexico? When I lived in McAllen, Texas, years ago they had daily flights to Mexico City and if I recall some to Monterey on metros of Aerolitorral. Are there many of these flying?

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6515 times:

Quoting planesavvy (Reply 23):
how much of the reverse is there, ie US border towns with flights to other parts of Mexico?

I think that the proper reply to your question is that Brownsville (BRO) has an AM RJ to Monterrey (MTY) that goes about 4 times a week? And I guess this flight is so that people don't have to make a drive through supposedly some of the most dangerous parts of Mexico, but I don't know if that's really true or not.

Other than the above, that's about it, I think.

edit added - I forgot that SAN has flights to SJD, PVR, GDL and MEX.

 

[Edited 2012-06-22 08:00:31]

25 RobertS975 : This is exactly the same topic that I posed in a thread several years ago! Because the border crossing experience is so time consuming, I would have t
26 Post contains images point2point : I think that everyone here knows that the search isn't the best on this site. I did a search for this and - nada. Nonetheless, it seems that nothing
27 kgaiflyer : But CJS doesn't even serve every population center in Mexico -- only seven cities. OTOH, ELP is only 12 miles away and has five airlines ( AA, DL, UA
28 Post contains images point2point : But for the sake of avoiding the land border crossing, one would think that maybe it could have a flight to LAX, or PHX, or LAS, or DEN, or DFW, or I
29 bobloblaw : The reason there is no airserve is that cities are close and bus service is cheap and extensive
30 RobertS975 : But a land crossing into the USA at many of these border cities can take several hours! If you have never seen the vehicle lines waiting to cross the
31 HAWAIIAN932 : Years ago I remember Allegra having a flight a few times a week that went MEX-GDL-TIJ-LAS. I believe it was on an MD-80. Didn't last very long and was
32 SANMAN66 : In San Diego, the radio stations broadcast the estimated border waits along with traffic reports. There has always been a shuttle service between TIJ
33 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Takes hours? Part of El Paso's work force lives in Juarez. There has been public transport between the two cities since 1909. [Edited 2012-06-22 16:2
34 Post contains images point2point : I'm thinking here with this now that G4 is pretty much running out of places in the U.S. to further its model, maybe Mexico could be the next target,
35 Beardown91737 : Mexicali isn't affected by a cross border twin like Juarez is by ELP and TJ is by SD. Mexicali is 650,000+ and across the border, Calexico, CA is only
36 usdcaguy : Great pictures. Too bad the streetcar doesn't run anymore. Those days are over. It's strange how the bridge in the second picture still looks the sam
37 DesertAir : This is a great thread. I live in Tijuana and have often wondered why there is no Tijuana-USA flights. I think DL could support two flights a day to A
38 RobertS975 : Or DL service to SLC... DesertAir speaks the truth about the border crossing... a Tijuana resident that wants to take a flight out of SAN probably ne
39 Post contains images kgaiflyer : You're correct. El Paso's transit is all Orion and Juarez' transit is all Benz. Thank you. I do my best. [Edited 2012-06-24 07:56:11]
40 Post contains images kgaiflyer : A few dozen masked soldiers with automatic weapons never frightened me.
41 yyz717 : We have the same "issue" in Canada. The Canadian border city Windsor YQG (across from DTW) has no transborder service either while many smaller Cdn c
42 DesertAir : I was referring to the time most people have to wait in cars or on foot to walk across. I applied and received a Sentri permit that makes walking acr
43 Post contains images kgaiflyer : I've shopped in the San Ysidro outlet stores with hundreds of Mexican citizens and among scores of cars with "State of Baja-California" license plate
44 smoot4208 : MX flew DEN-CJS 4 x weekly back in the early 90s.
45 IMissPiedmont : The Mexican border cities do tend to have very large populations but they are also very poor populations. Poor people tend not to fly to the US for le
46 Marcus : For the love of God please turn off the TV and open a book....or better yet hop on a plane....
47 Post contains images point2point : I agree with you there. However, the populations are large enough that at least some people would have the resources to take trips now and then.... a
48 Marcus : Wrong....the lowest poverty levels are in the border states with the US and in the Mexico City metropolitan area. US service from border cities in Me
49 Marcus : Ah so you have been in airports and subways in France.....good for you.
50 Post contains images point2point : I think that somehow we're all agreeing here, correct?
51 Post contains images kgaiflyer : ??? Yes . . . I have. I'm also in El Paso every other month. I'm not sure I get the connection here.[Edited 2012-06-25 14:52:47]
52 AR385 : The word you are looking for to make the connection is "irony". Marcus was making the point that the so called masked soldiers with automatic weapons
53 Marcus : Hmmmm let me rephrase that....the highest income levels in Mexico are in the northern states (the ones that border the US and Baja California Sur) pl
54 kgaiflyer : Irony?? Oh. Well . . . it's those pesky north Africans that live out beyond the radial highways who cause the problems in Paris -- and their *annoyin
55 Marcus : Lived in Paris for a year recently....you do get to see the masked ones, most in some not so touristy parts of the city. But getting back on topic, t
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