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DL Cutting 25 More Flights In MEM  
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6997 posts, RR: 13
Posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14282 times:

This was inevitable. I think it'll be down to 40-50 pretty shortly. The CRJ retirements are a major driver.

http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/n...tting-25-more-flights-memphis.html

103 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6293 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 14226 times:

25 flights, but only one destination being elimated...and a very close one (geographically) at that.

User currently offlineiahworldflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 14190 times:

Was in MEM this past weekend. Even during the early morning DL bank, there was very little automobile drop off/pick up activity out front. I was surprised how few people were there. I think Delta's service cuts, plus high airfares are putting the airport there in a downward spiral for lower passenger numbers and more cuts.

User currently offlinedcaviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 14100 times:

So where are the people that before the merger were saying that MEM will become ATL reliever?  

User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6997 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 14057 times:

Quoting SW733 (Reply 1):
25 flights, but only one destination being elimated...and a very close one (geographically) at that.

It's one out of every 6 DL flights. Kind of significant...I said months ago when they announced AMS would be "seasonally" suspended that it was a harbinger of a huge cut and got the usual fanboy responses that I was crazy.

Quoting iahworldflyer (Reply 2):
I think Delta's service cuts, plus high airfares are putting the airport there in a downward spiral for lower passenger numbers and more cuts.

Passengers are complaining about fares, not flights...so far.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 3):
So where are the people that before the merger were saying that MEM will become ATL reliever?

They are crying...


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10326 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13975 times:

So, when is the effective date of these cuts? The article doesn't say and res still shows flights a flight to FSM as of October. Right now there are 2x daily MEM-FSM and 1x daily ATL-FSM. In October (according to Delta.com) that changes to 1 out of MEM and 2 out of ATL.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6293 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13941 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
It's one out of every 6 DL flights. Kind of significant.

I never said it was insignificant. I was just adding a bit of detail.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6997 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13943 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 5):

So, when is the effective date of these cuts? The article doesn't say and res still shows flights a flight to FSM as of October.

August/September. It is being loaded tomorrow night. It'll be in my OAG thread next week.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10326 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13802 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
August/September. It is being loaded tomorrow night. It'll be in my OAG thread next week.

Ok.....is that JUST the service MEM-FSM...........will there still be ATL-FSM?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1878 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13665 times:

Meh...MEM will be another CVG in about 5 more years, bank it!

User currently offlinemetjetCEO From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 411 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13627 times:

There is a facebook page that was started, where people (on both sides) are getting pretty vocal. There are also political cartoons (I assume from the local paper) on the page too.

The facebook page is "Delta Does Memphis"


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1888 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13571 times:

I'm just surprised how rapidly they're drawing down MEM, I suppose we can take this to mean MEM-AMS probably won't be returning?

User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13540 times:

Is CLE paying attention?
I hope for them they are hedging for their rainy day. It will come.

Logistically, UA isn't there yet, but they will.

Just inevitable economics at play.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6997 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13496 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 9):
Meh...MEM will be another CVG in about 5 more years, bank it!

The way it's going make that one year.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 11):
I suppose we can take this to mean MEM-AMS probably won't be returning?

I can imagine them doing it next Summer 3/week, and then it never coming back again. That could even be optimistic.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17278 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13490 times:

CVG is also being pulled further down, and DTWHKG is canceled.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13421 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 12):

Economics of a largely O&D hub? It would be better to say that geography is working against CLE, not economics.

Also NE Ohio is a much, much larger market than the Tri-State area. I don't think you can say what happens to MEM will be what exactly happens to CLE, even about a post legacy hub operation.

[Edited 2012-06-22 12:05:09]

User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13303 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
DTWHKG is canceled.

What??? Effective when?



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22680 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13295 times:

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 15):
Also NE Ohio is a much, much larger market than the Tri-State area.

Yes, but no larger (and probably less economically healthy) than southwest Ohio/northern Kentucky.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13219 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):


I wasn't aware this a was thread about CVG?

As for the Cleveland metro, it has low unemployment compared to most of the country and the area is doing better than you (and most Americans) probably think as of late.

More people live in NE Ohio than SW Ohio/Northern KY. Not by a ton, but Canton makes a difference

[Edited 2012-06-22 12:39:22]

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22680 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 13157 times:

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 18):
As for the Cleveland metro, it has low unemployment compared to most of the country and the area is doing better than you (and most Americans) probably think as of late.

I'm fairly conversant with the economic data. Did I say that Cleveland was doing poorly economically? No, but I think Cincinnati is doing somewhat better.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 18):
More people live in NE Ohio than SW Ohio/Northern KY. Not by a ton, but Canton makes a difference

If we are considering CAK bleed for CLE, we need to consider DAY and LEX bleed for CVG.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17278 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 13131 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 16):
What??? Effective when?

Looks like the last month of operation is AUG12



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12999 times:

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 15):
Economics of a largely O&D hub? It would be better to say that geography is working against CLE, not economics.

Whichever the reason, in the end, the numbers will force UA to determine the fate of CLE.
It's not only up to UA really. They need to stay competitive as well. Looks to me like DL is a leader in cost cutting and finding further efficiencies from the merger. UA is a ways behind. But it is bound to happen.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22680 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12990 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 21):
Looks to me like DL is a leader in cost cutting and finding further efficiencies from the merger. UA is a ways behind. But it is bound to happen.

DL started from a weaker position as far as hub cities and 50 seat operations, though UA probably also has too many 50 seaters. But the reduction in Saab flying as well as possibly growth of the DH4 fleet with YX will help keep more current 50 seater routes flying, I think.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12975 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 16):
What??? Effective when?

Looks like the last month of operation is AUG12

Thanks! I have to fly that route just to add it to my map.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1286 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12865 times:

Looks like CMH, DEN, DSM, OMA, PHL, PIT, SGF, TPA, FSM, LIT, and OKC all lose a frequency. Not sure where the other 14 flights are coming from. Also, I don't see any cuts from CVG as of now atleast

User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4036 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 13314 times:

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 3):
So where are the people that before the merger were saying that MEM will become ATL reliever?

But MEM is an ATL reliever...in that ATL seems to be relieving itself on MEM.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17278 posts, RR: 46
Reply 26, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 13352 times:

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 3):
So where are the people that before the merger were saying that MEM will become ATL reliever?

The idea that an airline would invest so much time, money, and effort into managing a "reliever" hub is so absurd I don't know how it ever gained traction and credibility.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 25):
But MEM is an ATL reliever...in that ATL seems to be relieving itself on MEM.

  



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinerduddji From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1447 posts, RR: 3
Reply 27, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 13525 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
and DTWHKG is canceled.

That's the bigger news IMO...



Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10326 posts, RR: 14
Reply 28, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 13415 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 26):
The idea that an airline would invest so much time, money, and effort into managing a "reliever" hub is so absurd I don't know how it ever gained traction and credibility.

But that's just how CVG started as a hub.........as a reliever for ATL.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1896 posts, RR: 2
Reply 29, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 13293 times:

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
I think it'll be down to 40-50 pretty shortly. The CRJ retirements are a major driver.

I agree on both counts. That's a 16.7% reduction just like that. And with a hub structure, that cut just compounds itself and leads to more in short order.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
CVG is also being pulled further down, and DTWHKG is canceled.

DTW-HKG is the big news. Interesting.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10326 posts, RR: 14
Reply 30, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 13163 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 29):
DTW-HKG is the big news. Interesting.

Is it really "cancelled" or is it just being made seasonal?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 935 posts, RR: 2
Reply 31, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 12920 times:

When do you think we can start a new thread called,"New WN Destinations from MEM"?

User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 12818 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 30):
Is it really "cancelled" or is it just being made seasonal?

It still seems to be showing up in schedules beyond August (September) for me.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2732 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 12732 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 28):
But that's just how CVG started as a hub.........as a reliever for ATL.

The only question that I would have with these relievers is it that MEM is #1 and CVG #2, or vice-versa?

At any rate, sad to see but I think that both MEM and CVG will soon be joining the ranks of PIT, STL, BNA, RDU, MKE, COS, MCI, and IND, just to name a few former hubs. The jury is still out with me with CLE since I think it's got enough of the basics needed to be a hub, yet geography is the factor working against it. CLT and SLC are a couple of others out there maybe to be watching.

Economy of Scales and Utility Maximization in action........



 


User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12686 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 31):

My money is on very very soon.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1888 posts, RR: 9
Reply 35, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12676 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
CVG is also being pulled further down

What further cuts would that be? The CVG hub is really already as small as it could be.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8370 posts, RR: 3
Reply 36, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12627 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
It's one out of every 6 DL flights. Kind of significant...I said months ago when they announced AMS would be "seasonally" suspended that it was a harbinger of a huge cut and got the usual fanboy responses that I was crazy.

Of course. This was part of the DL-NW merger. People knowledgable about the industry knew that MEM would become a defensive focus city and nothing more. The MEM hubbing is a cost with zero flow revenue to fund it. Zero!! Because it can all be recaptured at ATL.

But of course, to the sheeple in the government and so forth, DL denied they were planning the obvious. After all... in theory, a reduction in competitive outcomes would be an illegal result of a potential merger.


User currently offlineboeing6594 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12409 times:

Has DL given up any gates at MEM? If so, where?

User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12445 times:

Quoting SR117 (Reply 32):

It still seems to be showing up in schedules beyond August (September) for me.

It's been pulled from the electronic timetable. Although still available for sale, DL will not sell less than a "B" fare.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12432 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 35):
What further cuts would that be? The CVG hub is really already as small as it could be.

As small as it could be, seriously?

You do realize DL still serves places like GRR, GSO and GSP from CVG?



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3702 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12336 times:

Quoting boeing6594 (Reply 37):
Has DL given up any gates at MEM? If so, where?

IIRC, DL has consolidated at Concourse B at MEM. In other words, there's plenty of open gate space in A and C at MEM.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1888 posts, RR: 9
Reply 41, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12278 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 39):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 35):
What further cuts would that be? The CVG hub is really already as small as it could be.

As small as it could be, seriously?

You do realize DL still serves places like GRR, GSO and GSP from CVG?

Yes I'm quite aware, and you do realize DL is only operating ~120 daily flights from CVG right? I would say that is about as small as a hub can be to still be banked and used as a connecting complex, so it isn't really possible for them to just come in and cut 25 flights and call it a hub. If they significantly cut anything further, that will be the day CVG becomes a spoke or DL announces 'new' focus city status for the airport.


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12106 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 41):

Yes I'm quite aware, and you do realize DL is only operating ~120 daily flights from CVG right? I would say that is about as small as a hub can be to still be banked and used as a connecting complex, so it isn't really possible for them to just come in and cut 25 flights and call it a hub. If they significantly cut anything further, that will be the day CVG becomes a spoke or DL announces 'new' focus city status for the airport.

A "hub" merely enables connectivity. CVG could handle six flights per day -- for example, inbound arrivials from LGA, BOS & DCA connecting via CVG and continuing onto LAX, SFO & SEA -- and it'd still be functioning as a hub. There's no official definition as to what qualifies as a hub, focus city, etc. and thus the concept is heavily subjective and subject to interpretation.

What's not subjective as that as long as CVG's structured in flight banks designed to connect, it's functioning as a hub. And that can be done with 40, 60, 80, 100, 120 or 650 flights.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11978 times:

STL was down to 82 flights a day before AA finally pulled the plug on the hub. While CVG and MEM are getting there, they are still above the limit of what one could still consider to be hubs.

[Edited 2012-06-22 16:53:34]

User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9255 posts, RR: 14
Reply 44, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11686 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 16):

AUG 29th looks like the last day.

Quoting mayor (Reply 28):

Yes but CVG could flow traffic from the NE to the west. MEM is nearly right on top of Atlanta and has pretty much the same traffic flows.
NYC and DTW are killing Cinny.

Quoting SR117 (Reply 32):

not planned to come back. Sad Delta can't make this market work. This is why I have said starting Asia from the west coast would likely give them a better chance.

Quoting mayor (Reply 30):

read above. Could change though.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 35):

ha. stick around, youll see that it can get smaller.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 36):

But of course, to the sheeple in the government and so forth, DL denied they were planning the obvious. After all... in theory, a reduction in competitive outcomes would be an illegal result of a potential merger.

They aren't as stupid as you make them out to be. Everyone knew CVG/MEM cuts were coming.

but hey. Keep MEM and CVG and just keep burning money, going back into BK, just so you can fly for cheap because airlines are a service and not a true business. *sigh* e

Quoting metjetCEO (Reply 10):

people can be so stupid sometimes. Now they will have no hub and higher fares.....fail.



yep.
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11560 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 44):

not planned to come back. Sad Delta can't make this market work. This is why I have said starting Asia from the west coast would likely give them a better chance.

How would starting Asia from the West Coast give DL a better chance? SEA has similar O/D to DTW, but signifiantly more compeition. LAX is saturated and significantly out of the way for DL's core Midwest/Eastern markets; connecting via NRT is more sensible.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9255 posts, RR: 14
Reply 46, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11457 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 45):
connecting via NRT is more sensible.

And miss out on the high yields of the non-stop PAXs.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 45):

How would starting Asia from the West Coast give DL a better chance? SEA has similar O/D to DTW, but signifiantly more compeition. LAX is saturated and significantly out of the way for DL's core Midwest/Eastern markets;

Lower fuel cost and much better feed.
Some the largest marks to Asia have to back track to go to DTW. (and lets face it, United owns the east of the Mississippi to Asia.)



yep.
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11197 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 46):
Some the largest marks to Asia have to back track to go to DTW. (and lets face it, United owns the east of the Mississippi to Asia.)

1. United does not own "east of the Mississippi to Asia."

2. Geographcilly, connecting through DTW to HKG is more advantagous for nearly every city east of Dallas.

3. Total trip time, connecting through DTW to HKG is more advantagous for nearly every city outside the Pacific Time Zone with direct service to DTW as connecting through SFO/LAX requires a double connection though SLC.

4. Much of the territory we're referring to produces little traffic to Asia, anyway.

5. SEA has similar overall O/D traffic levels to Asia as DTW, and significantly more compeition.

6. While LAX & SFO - HKG have oodles more O/D traffic to HKG as DTW, it'd be tough for DL to break into the market against UA, CX, etc.

7. While connecting via NRT to HKG has its disadvantages, if DL can't make DTW work, it's the best option and certainly better than the financial blood bath that would brew at LAX & SFO.

8. No reasonable high-yield passenger is going to travel NYC-LAX-HKG or ORD-SLC-SFO-HKG when faster, better alternatives exist.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 48, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11139 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 44):
not planned to come back. Sad Delta can't make this market work. This is why I have said starting Asia from the west coast would likely give them a better chance.

That's really too bad. I wonder what they'll do with the spare 777. Wish they would provide service from somewhere in the West Coast, the problem is where though.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5929 posts, RR: 9
Reply 49, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11047 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 47):
8. No reasonable high-yield passenger is going to travel NYC-LAX-HKG or ORD-SLC-SFO-HKG when faster, better alternatives exist.

You are correct they are more then likely going to fly UA or CX out of NYC or Chicago....it's no surprise that a route that depends so heavily on connections (vs O&D) is being cut when DL can simply flow those passengers via NRT.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 46):
United owns the east of the Mississippi to Asia.)

I don't know if I would go quite that far but they are certainly dominate US carrier service to China and HKG.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1888 posts, RR: 9
Reply 50, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11023 times:

Quoting michman (Reply 43):
STL was down to 82 flights a day before AA finally pulled the plug on the hub. While CVG and MEM are getting there, they are still above the limit of what one could still consider to be hubs.

Well I guess that's true if DL really wants to play word-games and insist that it's still a hub for them at that point, but it seems ridiculous once they dip below 100-120 daily flights, I mean they have "spoke" cities that are technically larger than that don't they?


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10739 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 50):

Well I guess that's true if DL really wants to play word-games and insist that it's still a hub for them at that point, but it seems ridiculous once they dip below 100-120 daily flights, I mean they have "spoke" cities that are technically larger than that don't they?

As I wrote earlier, a hub is merely an airport whose traffic flow is designed to facilitate connections. A "spoke" is a city which handles only flights to hubs. Who's really playing word games  .

[Edited 2012-06-22 18:44:53]


Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3994 posts, RR: 13
Reply 52, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10553 times:

Is it a question of when then Southwest comes into the picture?

User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3702 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10511 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 52):
Is it a question of when then Southwest comes into the picture?

They are already there (via AirTran), and WN has stated that they will keep MEM. All WN has to do is add some flights and/or switch existing FL flights to WN service.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9255 posts, RR: 14
Reply 54, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 9720 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 47):
1. United does not own "east of the Mississippi to Asia."

sorry, outside of Soul, They own it.

and its pretty clear that they do. They have double daily flights to HKG, 1 with a 747 and Delta can't even make 4x weekly 777 flights works. wish it wasn't the case but UA is king. (and FWIW I thought DTW-HKG would work. I still think starting west and then growing the midwest is the best model to use in the high fuel world, but I figured ICN/PEK/PVG and HKG would all do ok from DTW)
and you can pretty much say, for US carriers at least, they own Asia from the US period.
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 47):
2. Geographcilly, connecting through DTW to HKG is more advantagous for nearly every city east of Dallas.

But its pretty clear the market is covered with UA's flights to EWR/ORD and CX's flight to JFK.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 47):
3. Total trip time, connecting through DTW to HKG is more advantagous for nearly every city outside the Pacific Time Zone with direct service to DTW as connecting through SFO/LAX requires a double connection though SLC.

To bad the number 1 O/D city to Asia is in said time zone. (and SFO is, IIRC top 5)

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 47):
5. SEA has similar overall O/D traffic levels to Asia as DTW, and significantly more compeition.

but SEA can serve SFO/LAX/LAS a ton better to Asia than DTW can.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 47):
6. While LAX & SFO - HKG have oodles more O/D traffic to HKG as DTW, it'd be tough for DL to break into the market against UA, CX, etc.

I don't disagree.
but it may be something that they need to do.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 47):
7. While connecting via NRT to HKG has its disadvantages, if DL can't make DTW work, it's the best option and certainly better than the financial blood bath that would brew at LAX & SFO.

Maybe. It depends on what Delta wants. If they truly want to over fly NRT then they will have to find somewhere on the west coast to do it.
and FWIW its not like NRT-HKG doesn't have a ton of capacity in the market as is. UA/DL/JL/ANA/CX all fly the route(assuming i didn't miss someone)

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 47):
8. No reasonable high-yield passenger is going to travel NYC-LAX-HKG or ORD-SLC-SFO-HKG when faster, better alternatives exist.

No. Lol, CHI PAX a going to fly the N/S, NYC PAXs are going to fly the N/S. Outside of the hard core Delta FFs they have N/S options. Now, someone in Washington would likely be much more willing to fly DCA-LAX/SEA-HKG vs DCA-LAX/SEA/SLC etc.- NRT-HKG.
but they wont have to do this because United has 3 daily flights to HKG.



yep.
User currently offlinecrAAzy From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 9569 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
DTWHKG is canceled.

Agree this is the bigger news.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 47):
2. Geographcilly, connecting through DTW to HKG is more advantagous for nearly every city east of Dallas.

Except maybe ORD and MSP if we're talking hubs.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 47):
8. No reasonable high-yield passenger is going to travel NYC-LAX-HKG or ORD-SLC-SFO-HKG when faster, better alternatives exist.

Certainly you're not suggesting these "high-yield passengers" would even consider NYC-DTW-HKG over miltiple daily NYC-HKG non-stop options on CX or UA.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 46):
Some the largest marks to Asia have to back track to go to DTW. (and lets face it, United owns the east of the Mississippi to Asia.)

Not sure what you mean by "owns" but east of the Mississippi UA has 9 daily flights total to Asia to 4 different cities (HKG,NRT,PEG,PVK) from EWR and ORD isn't exactly impressive when you consider that CX has 4 daily JFK-HKG flights alone (equalling the total number of UA flights to Asia from EWR daily). Additionally CX runs daily from YYZ and ORD for a total of 6 daily flights to HKG (Asia) east of the Mississippi.


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9469 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 54):
and you can pretty much say, for US carriers at least, [UA] own Asia from the US period.

Seriously? DL has a very large Asian network; I'll excuse you on this one as I recognize that only one flight operates from ATL, so your knowledge may be limited.


Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 54):
But its pretty clear the market is covered with UA's flights to EWR/ORD and CX's flight to JFK.

Yeah, and DL had the MCO market covered throughout the 1990s and into the 2000s. Not certain where you're going with this.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 54):
but SEA can serve SFO/LAX/LAS a ton better to Asia than DTW can.

Who do you think's going to travel from LAS, SFO and LAX to Asia via SEA; high-yielding premium traffic or low-yielding price-sensitive traffic?

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 54):
It depends on what Delta wants. If they truly want to over fly NRT then they will have to find somewhere on the west coast to do

DL's core markets are in the Midwest and Eastern USA, DTW is the best option for these passengers. Making a double-connection to get via SEA, LAX & SFO adds time. Traveling through SFO & LAX adds a lot more time.

Even if DL were successful in buidling an Asian gateway at LAX, it'd be primairly O/D focused. Only price sensitive passengers would consider such option when traveling from the Central/Midwest/Eastern USA; high-yielding passengers would continue to utilize existing incumnbent gateways which yielded shorter transit times & more time in fancy seats.

I know you dream of an LAX Asian gateway, but it's not happening.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6997 posts, RR: 13
Reply 57, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9440 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 44):
not planned to come back. Sad Delta can't make this market work. This is why I have said starting Asia from the west coast would likely give them a better chance.
Quoting crAAzy (Reply 55):
Agree this is the bigger news.

The local market on that one was tiny. It was an oddball. There is no business tie between those cities. PVG is a completely different story and even PEK is several times larger.


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9435 times:

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 55):

Except maybe ORD and MSP if we're talking hubs.
Quoting crAAzy (Reply 55):

Certainly you're not suggesting these "high-yield passengers" would even consider NYC-DTW-HKG over miltiple daily NYC-HKG non-stop options on CX or UA.

I'm referencing persons traveling within the DL network, not referring to general travel between the USA & Asia. My apologies, I thought my postings were clear.

Quoting enilria (Reply 57):

The local market on that one was tiny. It was an oddball. There is no business tie between those cities. PVG is a completely different story and even PEK is several times larger.

There's few business ties between ATL & the much of its international service, MSP/NRT, etc. These are routes that survive based upon network connectivity.

[Edited 2012-06-22 21:45:56]


Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 749 posts, RR: 2
Reply 59, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9218 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 33):
CLT and SLC are a couple of others out there maybe to be watching.

CLT is one of the top five airline hubs in the nation in terms of takeoffs and landings. It's not going anywhere anytime soon.

SLC is one of two hubs (along with DEN) that serve the entire Mountain West region. The city is very isolated and has a good economy, which will ensure its status as a hub for the foreseeable future.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9255 posts, RR: 14
Reply 60, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9160 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 56):

Seriously? DL has a very large Asian network; I'll excuse you on this one as I recognize that only one flight operates from ATL, so your knowledge may be limited.

*sigh* I'm done. Really over the fact you think your s**t don't stink.  
and you will get much better responses from humans if you don't think your the smartest guy in the world. Delta is a great airline, but there network outside of Japan is lacking. If you don't know this than it clear you nothing(not even a little) about Delta's route network.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 55):

Not sure what you mean by "owns" but east of the Mississippi UA has 9 daily flights total to Asia to 4 different cities (HKG,NRT,PEG,PVK) from EWR and ORD isn't exactly impressive when you consider that CX has 4 daily JFK-HKG flights alone (equalling the total number of UA flights to Asia from EWR daily). Additionally CX runs daily from YYZ and ORD for a total of 6 daily flights to HKG (Asia) east of the Mississippi.

Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear. I am talking about US airlines only. KE and CX are very, very large to the US.
But for US carriers UA owns Asia. Delta has a great network to Japan but is lacking in other markets.



yep.
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9033 times:

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 54):
sorry, outside of Soul, They own it.

and its pretty clear that they do. They have double daily flights to HKG,

But the again you mention.


Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 54):
and you can pretty much say, for US carriers at least, they own Asia from the US period.

The latter remark is probably slightly better than the first as no US airline owns the Asia market. In the HKG - US Mid/East market CX is the dominant airline. In PEK/PVG - US Mid/East UA is the biggest, but ICN- US Mid/East is Koreans market. Leaves PEK/PVG where they are the biggest but in the PVG market the difference is only 1 daily flight compared to its competitors (AA and DL in the Midwest, and MU in NYC).


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8695 times:

Sadly MEM cuts are not surprising but they sure are sad to see. CVG and MEM just seem to be a matter of time now theres no stopping that freight train it appears

Quoting point2point (Reply 33):
CLT and SLC are a couple of others out there maybe to be watching.

na both hubs are consistantly profitable and are strong economies plus excellent locations and fortress hubs. They have little to worry about and both are working to modernize their terminals and the hub airlines support both. I dont think either city is even remotely considering being dehubbed at this point. CLT is on the of the major enhancements to the AA network and DL is extremely happy with SLC its consistantly profitable even with DL being forced to use so many CRJ-200s because of gate availability there. Both cities are also markets that only look better over time as they have strong economies and are growing.

[Edited 2012-06-23 01:42:32]

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2732 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8572 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 59):
CLT is one of the top five airline hubs in the nation in terms of takeoffs and landings. It's not going anywhere anytime soon.

SLC is one of two hubs (along with DEN) that serve the entire Mountain West region. The city is very isolated and has a good economy, which will ensure its status as a hub for the foreseeable future.

You're probably correct.....

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 62):
both hubs are consistantly profitable and are strong economies plus excellent locations and fortress hubs. They have little to worry about and both are working to modernize their terminals and the hub airlines support both. I dont think either city is even remotely considering being dehubbed at this point. CLT is on the of the major enhancements to the AA network and DL is extremely happy with SLC its consistantly profitable even with DL being forced to use so many CRJ-200s because of gate availability there. Both cities are also markets that only look better over time as they have strong economies and are growing.

You're probably correct here as well......

Although, if somehow (in a hypothetical world) I had to pick one that would go before the other, I think that CLT would go first. SLC, due to geography, would probably last longer, all things being equal.


 


User currently offlineHVNandrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7545 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 9):
Meh...MEM will be another CVG in about 5 more years, bank it!

With these new cuts, it will already be down to the size that CVG is now, and have no international service. Though, others are alluding to more cuts at CVG, so MEM may still stay larger (not that it really matters).

Whats amazing to me is how swift the drawdown of MEM has been. While nothing is as dramatic as DL's DFW pulldown, MEM has seen a pretty significant series of cuts. It's certainly rapid compared to CVG, which has had only a couple of large-scale cuts over the years. Much of the cuts there as of late have been on a much smaller scale; though again, maybe that will change soon.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 59):
CLT is one of the top five airline hubs in the nation in terms of takeoffs and landings. It's not going anywhere anytime soon.

SLC is one of two hubs (along with DEN) that serve the entire Mountain West region. The city is very isolated and has a good economy, which will ensure its status as a hub for the foreseeable future.

CLT and SLC are both very important parts of the US and DL networks, respectively. That's why neither is going anywhere anytime soon. The size of CLT alone should not be a factor of whether or not it's "safe". Look at CVG - at one point it had 600 flights a day departing on DL/OH alone.


User currently offlinerduddji From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1447 posts, RR: 3
Reply 65, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7300 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 59):
CLT is one of the top five airline hubs in the nation in terms of takeoffs and landings. It's not going anywhere anytime soon.

Yes, but the traffic is over 90% connections, which can be re-distributed among higher O&D (read: higher revenue) hubs. AA already did this exercise once with BNA and RDU.



Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7269 times:

Quoting HVNandrew (Reply 64):
Whats amazing to me is how swift the drawdown of MEM has been. While nothing is as dramatic as DL's DFW pulldown, MEM has seen a pretty significant series of cuts. It's certainly rapid compared to CVG, which has had only a couple of large-scale cuts over the years. Much of the cuts there as of late have been on a much smaller scale; though again, maybe that will change soon.

I wouldn't say that's true. MEM was never a big hub for NW like CVG was for DL. I believe that MEM was at the 220-250 daily departure range for most of the last decade under NW, while CVG was in the 500-600 range for a number of years under DL. It's just that DL starting making chops to CVG before the NW merger while MEM didn't really start taking cuts until after the merger. Overall, CVG has definitely taken the larger brunt of the cut backs (some of them being quite dramatic).

[Edited 2012-06-23 08:28:04]

User currently offlineAVLAirlineFreq From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 1009 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7057 times:

I'm a little surprised that MEM-COU wasn't chopped as well, at least not yet. Much like FSM, DL has added ATL-COU in recent months.

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12779 posts, RR: 100
Reply 68, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7012 times:
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Quoting dcaviation (Reply 3):
So where are the people that before the merger were saying that MEM will become ATL reliever?

Probably joining their STL breathren weeping.

Low O&D hubs are called Wayports and they just will not survive a downturn.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 42):
There's no official definition as to what qualifies as a hub, focus city, etc. and thus the concept is heavily subjective and subject to interpretation.

The only official destination of a hub is 30% to 70% of outbound seats are connecting.
70% of outbound seats connecting is a Wayport.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4098 posts, RR: 1
Reply 69, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7007 times:

It seems obvious to me that MEM is just too close to ATL to have so many mainline flights. Just like CVG is too close to DTW. It is economics and the theory of demand.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6296 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
CVG is also being pulled further down

Just pulled down the latest electronic timetable and the only interesting thing was that CVG-SYR is being dropped (has this been announced already?). Other than that, I just see a handful of what appear to be seasonal reductions (from about 122 departures to about 115). CVG-CDG is still there in the fall which would be seem to be the biggest question mark.


User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1286 posts, RR: 12
Reply 71, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6170 times:

Quoting michman (Reply 70):
CVG is also being pulled further down

Just pulled down the latest electronic timetable and the only interesting thing was that CVG-SYR is being dropped (has this been announced already?). Other than that, I just see a handful of what appear to be seasonal reductions (from about 122 departures to about 115). CVG-CDG is still there in the fall which would be seem to be the biggest question mark.

Nothing as of yesterday from the OAG changes involved CVG.


User currently offlinealggag From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6123 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 53):
Quoting incitatus (Reply 52):
Is it a question of when then Southwest comes into the picture?

They are already there (via AirTran), and WN has stated that they will keep MEM. All WN has to do is add some flights and/or switch existing FL flights to WN service.

I don't think that MEM is going to be a particularly big WN station. At least STL and BNA have gone on to become rather respectable stations in WN's network. I just don't see MEM getting much more service than a station like SDF except for maybe HOU in place of STL.


User currently offlinelat41 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6018 times:

How many remember when MEM was a Southern SO hub full of DC-9s and Martins. Then came Republic RC , a merger of North Central and Southern. Along came Northwest in another merger for the MEM hub and now DL. Interestingly some of the same DC-9s may have flown through Memphis under all 4 monikers.

User currently offlineiahworldflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6005 times:

I think WN could make money flying to MDW , MSY , HOU , along with seasonal service to NW Florida/Destin from MEM. I'm not sure how much yield they could get from such short-haul as BNA and STL. MEM Historically has low O/D.

User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5912 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 68):
The only official destination of a hub is 30% to 70% of outbound seats are connecting.
70% of outbound seats connecting is a Wayport.


Wayports were envisioned to handle wholly connections (of course, they never came into existence in passenger transport although they exist in cargo models; for example, UPS’s Ground hub in Hodgkins, IL which handles in excess of 2M packagers per day).

There is no formal definition for what size operation qualifies as a hub. NK identified DTW as a hub when it was operating barely 20 flights, and HP did the same for CMH when it wasn’t much larger. As long as an operation is designed to handle connections (that is, flights are orchestrated & fares sold as) it can be considered a hub. US Airways considers DCA to be a focus city, even though it meets the definition as a hub. Some a.net members like to consider an airport such as ORD a focus city for DL, because of the number of flights, even though each of those flights operates to a hub and aren’t designed to connect.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 60):
Delta is a great airline, but there network outside of Japan is lacking. If you don't know this than it clear you nothing(not even a little) about Delta's route network.


Earlier you claimed UA “owned” Asia from east of the Mississippi. Surprise -- Tokyo is in Asia. And while UA has the strongest presence of any USA-based airline beyond Tokyo, it certainly does not “own” the market. An equivalent statement would be “DL owns ATL,” which is not true as FL -- while much smaller -- maintains a significant presence in ATL.

Quote:
and you will get much better responses from humans if you don't think your the smartest guy in the world.


Aww… I’m most definitely not the smartest guy in the world -- in fact, I’ll admit I’m far from it. I am, however, smarter than some people. Honestly, once you get past the repeated postings on pink seats, pivot bins & PTVs, you may learn a thing or two on here  Wink.

[Edited 2012-06-23 17:57:26]


Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17278 posts, RR: 46
Reply 76, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5888 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 71):
Nothing as of yesterday from the OAG changes involved CVG.

There were some reductions that were pretty significant; I can't remember most of them other than IAH going to 5/wk and I think DEN was less than daily too. It'll be in enilria's next OAG update .



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4971 posts, RR: 28
Reply 77, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5902 times:

Kinda wish F9 would have had a crystal ball when it tried MEM years ago. I would think now is a good time to give it another shot. I remember how massive Republic and Northwest were there. I spent two weeks doing training there. It was awesome. Dc-10s, DC-9s, 727s, 757s, and Airbus all over sporting red tails. And a nice size of ARMs, which was my fave. So sad to see what it is becoming. Hope someone comes in and fills some of the voids for the people of MEM.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5778 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 76):
There were some reductions that were pretty significant; I can't remember most of them other than IAH going to 5/wk and I think DEN was less than daily too. It'll be in enilria's next OAG update

Neither DEN nor IAH currently operate on Saturday's. IAH is losing the Tuesday departure in September. The only thing possibly new would be DEN also going to 5x weekly.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1888 posts, RR: 9
Reply 79, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5671 times:

Quoting iahworldflyer (Reply 74):
I think WN could make money flying to MDW , MSY , HOU , along with seasonal service to NW Florida/Destin from MEM. I'm not sure how much yield they could get from such short-haul as BNA and STL. MEM Historically has low O/D.

I think I'd disagree, with some low-fare market stimulation, I think MEM could do well, it's much more of a destination city than say SDF or other such WN stations.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12779 posts, RR: 100
Reply 80, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5292 times:
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Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 75):
There is no formal definition for what size operation qualifies as a hub

Agreed. The FAA just has definitions based on what percentage of the outbound seats are connecting.

One could have four flights a day and qualify as a hub.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 75):
Wayports were envisioned to handle wholly connections

Wayports are an old sailing concept. For example, Singapore harbor was started as a cargo wayport, but then the city grew to become its own destination. Although, with 81.8% of cargo 'transshipped,' its still a wayport for seaborne cargo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ld%27s_busiest_transshipment_ports

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22680 posts, RR: 20
Reply 81, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5157 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 79):
I think MEM could do well, it's much more of a destination city than say SDF or other such WN stations.

It's more of a destination city than SDF, sure, but I bet it's less of a destination than a place like STL (much bigger) or BNA (probably equal as far as straight tourism, but much more inbound business and convention traffic), and the local business community isn't huge or particularly dynamic.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5091 times:

According to the Delta.com booking engine, it looks like SEA and PNS are also being cut from MEM come the middle of August.

Not sure if these are seasonal or not.

[Edited 2012-06-24 09:29:38]

User currently offlineFutureuscapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 83, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4830 times:

An added tidbit some people may find interesting which wasn't mentioned in the article/thread is that in addition to these 25 cuts, DL will implement a substantially reduced operation on Saturdays in MEM starting in September.

The Saturday operation will dwindle to 23 flights starting in the fall - down from approximately 90 prior to the change. In fact with this change, DL will only serve 12 destinations from MEM nonstop on Saturdays - ATL, DCA, DTW, FLL, JFK, LAS, LAX, LGA, MCO, MSP, ORD, and SLC.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 76):
There were some reductions that were pretty significant; I can't remember most of them other than IAH going to 5/wk and I think DEN was less than daily too. It'll be in enilria's next OAG update .

There were some cuts but I don't know that I would categorize them as anything significant. The only changes rolled out this week were a appear to be a reduction of about a dozen flights on Tuesdays only and, what is as of now, a September only reduction of CVG-LAS from daily to Th/Fr/Su only.

DL had actually already implemented a handful of Tuesday reductions in CVG for this fall (in addition to the massive Saturday draw down that has been in effect for some time now), but the new Tuesday reductions are in the following markets:

BNA
DFW
IAD
IAH (no DL n/s available on Tu with this change)
MCI
MKE
OMA (no DL n/s available on Tu with this change)
PHL
PIT
RDU
RIC
YYZ



[Edited 2012-06-24 15:44:28 by FutureUScapt]

User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3702 posts, RR: 2
Reply 84, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4744 times:

Quoting Futureuscapt (Reply 83):
In fact with this change, DL will only serve 12 destinations from MEM nonstop on Saturdays - ATL, DCA, DTW, FLL, JFK, LAS, LAX, LGA, MCO, MSP, ORD, and SLC.

And of those 12 cities, seven are DL hubs or focus cities (ATL, DTW, JFK, LAX, LGA, MSP, and SLC). I suspect that DCA is there for slot-keeping reasons, while MCO and FLL are there because not much other Florida service exists from MEM. ORD is the odd one out of the twelve. Don't UA and AA serve the ORD-MEM market well?

Also, does 9E still send CRJs to MEM for MX, or has Ch 11 meant that they will close the MEM MX base and transfer work to other bases (ATL, FWA, IND, etc.)? If 9E is keeping the MEM MX base, it would be silly not to funnel in those CRJs to MEM.



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3380 posts, RR: 9
Reply 85, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4621 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 77):
And a nice size of ARMs, which was my fave.

???

Did you mean ARJ's?

Quoting Futureuscapt (Reply 83):
The Saturday operation will dwindle to 23 flights starting in the fall

Wow! O_o



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22680 posts, RR: 20
Reply 86, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4551 times:

Quoting Futureuscapt (Reply 83):
DL had actually already implemented a handful of Tuesday reductions in CVG for this fall (in addition to the massive Saturday draw down that has been in effect for some time now), but the new Tuesday reductions are in the following markets:

Well, those cuts should put to rest any claim that DL has an interest in Cincinnati O&D traffic (or at least Cincinnati business passengers). CVG-IAH is not an insignificant market - roughly 80 PDEW.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6572 posts, RR: 24
Reply 87, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4426 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 86):
Well, those cuts should put to rest any claim that DL has an interest in Cincinnati O&D traffic (or at least Cincinnati business passengers).

But how many business travelers are there on Tuesdays? I'll bet it's less than 80 PDEW.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 86):
CVG-IAH is not an insignificant market - roughly 80 PDEW.

It's a pretty small local market especially when you have two airlines who fly the route.


User currently offlineJoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4360 times:

I checked OMA-MEM Tuesday Sept 25th and I'm still seeing 2x daily in the delta.com timetable and when booking. Where are you seeing the data you're referring to?

Quoting Futureuscapt (Reply 83):
An added tidbit some people may find interesting which wasn't mentioned in the article/thread is that in addition to these 25 cuts, DL will implement a substantially reduced operation on Saturdays in MEM starting in September.

The Saturday operation will dwindle to 23 flights starting in the fall - down from approximately 90 prior to the change. In fact with this change, DL will only serve 12 destinations from MEM nonstop on Saturdays - ATL, DCA, DTW, FLL, JFK, LAS, LAX, LGA, MCO, MSP, ORD, and SLC.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 76):
There were some reductions that were pretty significant; I can't remember most of them other than IAH going to 5/wk and I think DEN was less than daily too. It'll be in enilria's next OAG update .

There were some cuts but I don't know that I would categorize them as anything significant. The only changes rolled out this week were a appear to be a reduction of about a dozen flights on Tuesdays only and, what is as of now, a September only reduction of CVG-LAS from daily to Th/Fr/Su only.

DL had actually already implemented a handful of Tuesday reductions in CVG for this fall (in addition to the massive Saturday draw down that has been in effect for some time now), but the new Tuesday reductions are in the following markets:

BNA
DFW
IAD
IAH (no DL n/s available on Tu with this change)
MCI
MKE
OMA (no DL n/s available on Tu with this change)
PHL
PIT
RDU
RIC
YYZ


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1888 posts, RR: 9
Reply 89, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4347 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 86):
Quoting Futureuscapt (Reply 83):
DL had actually already implemented a handful of Tuesday reductions in CVG for this fall (in addition to the massive Saturday draw down that has been in effect for some time now), but the new Tuesday reductions are in the following markets:

Well, those cuts should put to rest any claim that DL has an interest in Cincinnati O&D traffic (or at least Cincinnati business passengers). CVG-IAH is not an insignificant market - roughly 80 PDEW.

I don't think it's so much that as it is more a side-effect of DL's typical price skimming pricing strategy at CVG. They're not nor ever have been interested in carrying a lot of traffic on the route, but rather just trying to get the most people who are willing to pay the highest fares to fly on the route...not sustainable in the long-run as it slowly drives down demand, but in the short run they can get good yields.


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3306 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4250 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 86):
Well, those cuts should put to rest any claim that DL has an interest in Cincinnati O&D traffic (or at least Cincinnati business passengers). CVG-IAH is not an insignificant market - roughly 80 PDEW.

Its kind of hard to tell deltas strategy here with CVG but i think it will change fast if oil shoots thru the roof so lets hope we dont see a huge spike   Personally i dont think they really care anymore about serving the most people or keeping frequent flyers happy sadly its about purely getting cash and which flights are generating last minute business travel or have no/limited competition. To be fair here also united serves the route and at 4x a day also. Its not like its an unserved route. Also theres non stops to almost everywhere on united so connections will be the lowest fair or limited so i think all factors combined IAH seems like a trim that makes sense.

Im even more puzzled by the delta schedule to hubs from cvg. With all of these flights at CVG disapearing over years one would think the flights to the hubs would be more important. Delta operates just 2x737-800 to SLC and some days almost all CRJ-200s to MSP with no first class? Its still a two hour flight. Its like they dont even care about keeping the loyal delta flyers at CVG when they are still by far the largest airline  


User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 91, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4239 times:

Quoting Joeljack (Reply 88):
I checked OMA-MEM Tuesday Sept 25th and I'm still seeing 2x daily in the delta.com timetable and when booking. Where are you seeing the data you're referring to?

The Tuesday cuts are CVG centric; the new Saturday cuts are all MEM centric.

In other words, try checking CVG-OMA on 25Sep or MEM-OMA on 29Sep.  


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10326 posts, RR: 14
Reply 92, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4161 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 90):
Delta operates just 2x737-800 to SLC

Seem like nitpicking, but actually, it's 1x737-800 and 1xA320.........that's the current schedule and the schedule change in Sept.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineJayinKitsap From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 769 posts, RR: 1
Reply 93, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4071 times:

I flew SEA-SLC-MEM on Delta (& connector) the end of May. SEA-SLC was sold out, SLC-MEM was pretty full going out but like 1/2 full coming back. Got into MEM around 6 PM and it felt like a ghost town, like landing at 9 PM or later most places. I think there were only 4 more departures that night - at 6 PM!.

The lightest rental car counter I have encountered at an airport. The smell of death was around the airport.

Is WN going into there now? I just looked at Delta but bought on Orbitz because the flight was $200 less there than on Delta.com.


User currently offlinealggag From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4061 times:

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 93):

Is WN going into there now? I just looked at Delta but bought on Orbitz because the flight was $200 less there than on Delta.com.

Yes if you count FL, not there yet as WN. MEM did survive the station cuts so WN is coming at some point in the next year or two.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22680 posts, RR: 20
Reply 95, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3940 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 87):
It's a pretty small local market especially when you have two airlines who fly the route.

I'm not saying it's huge, nor am I saying that they are necessarily making money on the route. What I'm saying is that if you want to foment business passenger loyalty, it's hard to do that when you don't fly to the fourth largest city in the country every day.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17278 posts, RR: 46
Reply 96, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 92):
Seem like nitpicking, but actually, it's 1x737-800 and 1xA320

Westbound. Eastbound it's two 320s, at least this week 



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 97, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 82):
According to the Delta.com booking engine, it looks like SEA and PNS are also being cut from MEM come the middle of August.

SEA is seasonal for certain.

Very sad to see MEM go like this. I flew LAX-MEM-EWR in April 2010 and it was still bustling around the 6pm bank. Now things have changed so much that MEM-EWR is no more.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6572 posts, RR: 24
Reply 98, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 95):
What I'm saying is that if you want to foment business passenger loyalty, it's hard to do that when you don't fly to the fourth largest city in the country every day.

But how many business passengers from CVG need to go to IAH? Just because IAH is a big city doesn't mean lots of people in CVG want to go there. Judging by the 80PDEW number you gave, clearly it's not a big draw.

I think DL knows they can keep a pretty good lock on the CVG based business travelers by just offering the hubs and a few other key cities (BOS, DCA, LAX, etc). However, markets like IAH are marginal particularly since IAH is another carriers hub and the volume is low.


User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4971 posts, RR: 28
Reply 99, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3557 times:

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 85):
?

Did you mean ARJ's?

Yes! LOL! Stupid auto correct. Constantly having to correct auto correct!



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3049 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 12):
Just inevitable economics at play.
Quoting peanuts (Reply 21):
Whichever the reason, in the end, the numbers will force UA to determine the fate of CLE.
It's not only up to UA really. They need to stay competitive as well. Looks to me like DL is a leader in cost cutting and finding further efficiencies from the merger. UA is a ways behind. But it is bound to happen.

Whichever the reason? Yet, you clearly said economics. Smisek just made your original comment look schoolboy foolish.  
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19):
If we are considering CAK bleed for CLE, we need to consider DAY and LEX bleed for CVG.

Canton is 50 miles from Cleveland (the same distance Dayton is from CIncy). Lexington-Fayette is a spawling 15 county metro 80-120 miles from Cincinnati seperated by 50 miles of farmland. A decent chunk of the area is tied to Louisville, as well. More people live NE Ohio. I'm not making this up.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22680 posts, RR: 20
Reply 101, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2803 times:

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 100):
More people live NE Ohio. I'm not making this up.

I don't see the math. Cleveland + Akron/Canton MSAs are about 3.1 million. Cincinnati + Dayton + Springfield MSAs are about the same. Moreover, to your point about LEX, CLE-downtown Canton is 67 miles. CVG-downtown Lexington is 81 miles. Why do we count Canton but not Lexington?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineJetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2760 posts, RR: 33
Reply 102, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days ago) and read 2422 times:

According to the latest timetable update, the following MEM cities end on 12/21/2012.

OMA, OKC, TUL, LIT, MSY, DFW, CVG, DSM, CLE, TPA, IAH, AUS, SAT, CLT, BNA, MCI, MKE, DEN, BTR, PHL, PIT, BOS, JAX,

I'm sure there are more. Is this an error? Lot of cities to end service on one day. 12/22 will be a ghost town compared to the day before if this is accurate.



No info
User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 103, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days ago) and read 2392 times:

Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 102):
According to the latest timetable update, the following MEM cities end on 12/21/2012.

OMA, OKC, TUL, LIT, MSY, DFW, CVG, DSM, CLE, TPA, IAH, AUS, SAT, CLT, BNA, MCI, MKE, DEN, BTR, PHL, PIT, BOS, JAX,

I'm sure there are more. Is this an error? Lot of cities to end service on one day. 12/22 will be a ghost town compared to the day before if this is accurate.

It's not an error per se, but these aren't permanent discontinuations as it stands now.

DL is implementing a reduced schedule in MEM over the trough days in the holiday period. It is essentially the Saturday schedule that I mentioned in reply 83. This reduced schedule will be in effect from 12/22 - 12/25 and then again from 12/29 - 1/1


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