Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Air Canada Add 4th Pilot HKG-YVR  
User currently offlineKermode From Canada, joined Jun 2012, 36 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12781 times:

According to an article by the Vancouver Sun, Air Canada is adding a pilot on the HKG-YVR route. But not the YVR-HKG direction. This had to be done because the flight was regularly running over 15h 18% of the time.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Can...aul+route+other/6808019/story.html

Quote:
The addition of a fourth pilot on all Air Canada flights from Hong Kong to Vancouver reverses the airline's "unilateral decision" in April to operate all flights between the cities with a three-pilot crew, according to an internal newsletter of the Air Canada Pilots Association obtained by Postmedia News.

Pilot fatigue has emerged as a pressing safety issue in air travel. Air Canada pilots say the solution lies in Transport Canada updating decades-old flight and duty time regulations to force all airlines to add staff in the cockpit.

However, the group failed to convince Air Canada to add a fourth pilot on the outbound leg of the Vancouver-Hong Kong route as well.

It seems odd that a pilot is only being added in one direction. You would think that having 4 in both directions would make scheduling much simpler. I take it the 4th would have to deadhead to Hong Kong and then rest with the crew and fly back? Would he or she not have to be paid for this in some way? (Not full pay but some compensation)

Kermode

[Edited 2012-06-22 16:38:33]

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26022 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12753 times:

Not odd at all.

Many airlines, US ones included operate with augmented crews in single direction.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12727 times:

Quoting Kermode (Thread starter):
According to an article by the Vancouver Sun, Air Canada is adding a pilot on the HKG-YVR route. But not the YVR-HKG direction

Shouldnt YVR-HKG be longer?


User currently onlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5131 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12616 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 2):
Shouldnt YVR-HKG be longer?

It is, but it is not as tiring.

Within the pilot union is a committee that compiles feedback that judges how onerous a flight is, and whether current pilot complement is sufficient. Sometimes the contract rules do not cover all circumstances. This flight is an example.

While a "give and take" trade is not the aim, often some flights are deemed to be not onerous, and a pilot is removed, even though the contract would dictate otherwise.

Pilots are encouraged to fill surveys on all flights to see if there are trends. An example would be an E190 flight that left YYT at 0500L to arrive YYZ at 0630L, then that crew would sit for 2 hours to fly YYZ-YQR 0830L - 1100L for a layover. It looks good on paper, but the crews were less than optimum on the YYZ-YQR leg due to fatigue, and the pairing was re-rigged.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently onlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5131 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12610 times:

Quoting Kermode (Thread starter):
You would think that having 4 in both directions would make scheduling much simpler. I take it the 4th would have to deadhead to Hong Kong and then rest with the crew and fly back? Would he or she not have to be paid for this in some way? (Not full pay but some compensation)

One of the concessions made a few years ago, was that dead-heading crew-members are paid half of the scheduled flying time. Considering that the average Relief Pilot makes less than $40,000 a year, and is only paid half credit for deadheading, I would have thought it would be cheaper to just have him work the leg, instead of filling a revenue seat .... (but they didn't ask me!)



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6626 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11898 times:

15 hours?! Do they do some holding patterns along the way?

User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9210 posts, RR: 76
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 11660 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 5):

2 sector from YYZ ?



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinematt From Canada, joined May 1999, 700 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 11317 times:

I'm curious. At AC, are relief pilots a "seperate breed"? I though that relief pilots were regular pilots and that they didn't strictly operate as relief pilots. In other words, they flew sectors (pairings) as regular pilots and then others as relief pilots. Am I wrong to assume that?

Matthieu

[Edited 2012-06-23 05:46:22]


Next flights: YQM-YYZ-YOW v.v. / YQM-CUN v.v. / YQM-YUL-YWG v.v. / YSJ-YYZ-SEA-SFO / SFO-YYZ-YOW-YQM / YQM-YYZ-MUC-TXL /
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6626 posts, RR: 55
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 11170 times:

Quoting matt (Reply 7):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 5):
One of the concessions made a few years ago, was that dead-heading crew-members are paid half of the scheduled flying time. Considering that the average Relief Pilot makes less than $40,000 a year, and is only paid half credit for deadheading, I would have thought it would be cheaper to just have him work the leg, instead of filling a revenue seat

I'm curious. At AC, are relief pilots a "seperate breed"? I though that relief pilots were regular pilots and that they didn't strictly operate as relief pilots. In other words, they flew sectors (pairings) as regular pilots and then others as relief pilots. Am I wrong to assume that?

Matthieu

Not my quote!!


User currently onlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5131 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10317 times:

Quoting matt (Reply 7):
I'm curious. At AC, are relief pilots a "seperate breed"? I though that relief pilots were regular pilots and that they didn't strictly operate as relief pilots. In other words, they flew sectors (pairings) as regular pilots and then others as relief pilots. Am I wrong to assume that?

Relief pilots are a different category on the crew roster. There is 1 Captain, 2 First Officers, and 1 Relief pilot on a 4 person crew, and one less F/O on a 3 person crew.

Initial type training for an RP is a regular F/O course, and a type rating is issued by Transport Canada, but RP recurrent training does not keep the rating valid, so it lapses. The recurrent training Air Canada does, and mandated by Transport Canada does not include some facets to keep the rating current. However, if the RP desires, he can do regular F/O recurrent training to keep the type rating current. Some do, some don't.

However, the RP position can be filled by anyone type rated and current on the aircraft. So occasionally, when required, the RP slot is filled with an F/O or even a Captain.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently onlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5131 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10138 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 5):
15 hours?! Do they do some holding patterns along the way?

The duty day for YVR-HKG is 14:35. That includes 1:15 check in and 0:15 check out. It wouldn't take much of a delay, or longer flying time for that to exceed 15 hours. I am not familiar with this particular flight, but it appears to exceed 15 hours, 18% of the time.

The consideration to add a 4th pilot is when when historical data shows 15 hours exceeded more than 10% of the time. I understand this flight is under review.

Quoting zeke (Reply 6):
2 sector from YYZ ?

No, just the YVR-HKG leg.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineAirNovaBAe146 From Canada, joined Jun 2008, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9141 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 3):
ots are encouraged to fill surveys on all flights to see if there are trends. An example would be an E190 flight that left YYT at 0500L to arrive YYZ at 0630L, then that crew would sit for 2 hours to fly YYZ-YQR 0830L - 1100L for a layover. It looks good on paper, but the crews were less than optimum on the YYZ-YQR leg due to fatigue, and the pairing was re-rigged.

Thanks for that example.

How come AC crew scheduling can't do anything about tightening up the pairings. You'd think with that inbound crew and aircraft from YYT in YYZ, they should not need 2 hours of ground time before their next rotation. Send the crew onwards, with 45 minutes to an hour on the ground. Have a friend who is an Airbus pilot with AC, and I remember him telling me about long "airport appreciation" breaks they have, which are aggrevating for crew because all they want to do is be productive flying and then go to the hotel or home.


User currently offlineYLWbased From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2006, 840 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8253 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 5):
15 hours?! Do they do some holding patterns along the way?

u obviously is not a frequent on this route, YVR-HKG is easily 14 and a half hours flight time, plus ground time it is very common to see crew goes beyond the 15 hrs limit.

YVR-HKG-YVR is one of the flights that I hated the most, however I do it twice a year..... sigh.

YLWbased



Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 7302 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 5):
15 hours?! Do they do some holding patterns along the way?

No the scheduled time is about 14 hours, add to that the prep time at the start, and then you have the time at the end of the flight they need to "tie up" and complete their flight and bippity boppity boo, you have at least a 15+ hour day.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinezbbylw From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1991 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6384 times:

It should also be mentioned that to the best of my knowledge CX operates 4 pilots both ways.

They should really have the 4 person crew operate both ways, as longhauler said they will take a seat that could otherwise be sold. Most RPs (maybe not as much on the 777 in YVR) are on the first 2 year pay scale (which is not much at all). The difference between 1/2 time and full time is probably not too much when taking into account you can sell that extra seat.



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6626 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4071 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
The duty day for YVR-HKG is 14:35. That includes 1:15 check in and 0:15 check out. It wouldn't take much of a delay, or longer flying time for that to exceed 15 hours. I am not familiar with this particular flight, but it appears to exceed 15 hours, 18% of the time.

The thread starter stated that the FLIGHT was regularly running over 15hrs...not duty times. Thats a big difference. Obviously I understand duty times can easily be over 15 hours on some days. I am a longhaul pilot!


User currently offlineKermode From Canada, joined Jun 2012, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4033 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Many airlines, US ones included operate with augmented crews in single direction.

Well I've never heard of it. Your most likely just more knowledgeable than I am, but I found it interesting.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 4):
I would have thought it would be cheaper to just have him work the leg, instead of filling a revenue seat

That's what I thought too. The article also talks about pilot fatigue and it's affects. I would have thought Air Canada would rather have him work the outbound leg as he wouldn't be filling up a rev seat and would probably end up costing about the same. Also because the pilots association asked for a fourth pilot on the outbound, it seems like putting 4 both ways would keep the pilots happy could be cheaper as you said.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 15):
The thread starter stated that the FLIGHT was regularly running over 15hrs...not duty times. Thats a big difference.

My mistake, didn't think to word it more accurately. I just finally joined a few days ago, didn't even think about being so specific. Next time!  


User currently onlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5131 posts, RR: 43
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3708 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 15):
The thread starter stated that the FLIGHT was regularly running over 15hrs...not duty times. Thats a big difference. Obviously I understand duty times can easily be over 15 hours on some days. I am a longhaul pilot!

That may well be ... but it is not the FLIGHT time that changes crew compliment, it is duty time.

And while the ever accurate press stated flight time, it was duty time that was the issue. And the "15 hour rule" is regarding duty time.

Quoting Kermode (Reply 16):
Also because the pilots association asked for a fourth pilot on the outbound, it seems like putting 4 both ways would keep the pilots happy could be cheaper as you said.

The bigger issue here is that there is not enough pilots. As stated on another message thread, pilots are leaving Air Canada in unforecast numbers. The manpower simply isn't there for a 4th pilot on the YVR-HKG leg.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinecheeken From Singapore, joined Feb 2010, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3619 times:

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 12):

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 5):
15 hours?! Do they do some holding patterns along the way?

u obviously is not a frequent on this route, YVR-HKG is easily 14 and a half hours flight time, plus ground time it is very common to see crew goes beyond the 15 hrs limit.


yes, that is true, but...

Quoting Kermode (Thread starter):

According to an article by the Vancouver Sun, Air Canada is adding a pilot on the HKG-YVR route. But not the YVR-HKG direction. This had to be done because the flight was regularly running over 15h 18% of the time.

I don't know, but I would think HKG-YVR taking 15 hours to be extremely unlikely, but YVR-HKG to be possible. A typo somewhere along the way?


User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6626 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3316 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 17):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 15):
The thread starter stated that the FLIGHT was regularly running over 15hrs...not duty times. Thats a big difference. Obviously I understand duty times can easily be over 15 hours on some days. I am a longhaul pilot!

That may well be ... but it is not the FLIGHT time that changes crew compliment, it is duty time.

And while the ever accurate press stated flight time, it was duty time that was the issue. And the "15 hour rule" is regarding duty time.

I realise all that. As I said, I fly longhaul all the time so I am familiar with the rules. I was just pointing out the 'error' in the wording of the thread starter.


User currently offlineKermode From Canada, joined Jun 2012, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3301 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 19):
I realise all that. As I said, I fly longhaul all the time so I am familiar with the rules. I was just pointing out the 'error' in the wording of the thread starter.

Yes as I said here:

Quoting Kermode (Reply 16):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 15):
The thread starter stated that the FLIGHT was regularly running over 15hrs...not duty times. Thats a big difference.

My mistake, didn't think to word it more accurately. I just finally joined a few days ago, didn't even think about being so specific. Next time!  

I did not think to be so specific as I only just joined and got to start posting. My mistake


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Pilot Locked Out Of Cockpit On Air Canada Plane posted Wed Aug 30 2006 11:53:49 by Eksath
Air Canada To Add New Destinations Out Of YYC posted Fri Nov 19 2004 00:50:07 by Fiedman
Air Canada Expects To Add Six Used Jets For 2005 posted Mon Nov 15 2004 16:18:16 by JoFMO
Air Canada To Add Cuba posted Mon Jul 14 2003 10:30:17 by Airmale
Air Canada To Add Asia-Pacific Routes posted Wed Dec 5 2001 09:58:27 by United Airline
Pilot Strike Situation At Air Canada posted Fri Jun 23 2000 14:46:39 by AC_A340
Air Canada Pilot's Strike posted Thu Jun 8 2000 00:20:33 by Copper1
Why National Airports Terminals For Air Canada? posted Thu Jun 14 2012 21:26:57 by aviacsa55
Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC posted Wed Jun 13 2012 12:33:50 by voodoo
Air Canada's Last New Build B767-300ER Type? posted Sun Jun 10 2012 16:49:41 by skipness1E