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Air Canada Plan To Retire A320 And 767?  
User currently offlinecx828 From Hong Kong, joined May 2007, 157 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 16615 times:
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Almost all the A320 and 767 are more than 20 years old, did Air Canada plan to retire them ?? Did they order any new planes to replace them??

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinewpigott From Canada, joined Oct 2008, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 16528 times:

I don't believe there is a time frame to retire the A320s though having options for 60 more E190s and the potential to order some CSeries planes could work to replace the A320s, but I know the E-Jets don't have the range nor the capacity to act as replacements for A319/20/21s, and I don't know about the CSeries, I bet the Canadian Government will be pushing AC to buy CSeries aircraft. The 767s are going to be replaced by 787s when they start arriving at the end of 2013, though the A330s will probably be retired first then the 767s will slowly be retired with some moving over to AC's new long haul LCC.

User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 16312 times:

With regard to the A320, this thread from a month ago will answer a few of your questions:

Air Canada Airbus 320 Replacement Question (by YOWVIEWER May 4 2012 in Civil Aviation)

The Wide Body Fleet Plan changes daily.

The present plan is to transfer some of the B767s to the LCC, and replace the rest with B787s due to arrive whenever. There is a slight increase in mainline capacity with this present plan.

The A330s are staying until replaced with larger versions of the B787.

Right now, there is no economic sense to replace a 20 year old airframe.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinebmibaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1797 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 16201 times:

I believe C-FNVV 404 Airbus A320-211 has been wfu, it last flew on 02 February 2012?

User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 13703 times:

Quoting cx828 (Thread starter):
Almost all the A320 and 767 are more than 20 years old, did Air Canada plan to retire them ?? Did they order any new planes to replace them??

Almost all of them have refurbished cabins, so while the airframe maybe 20yrs old, the interior definitely doesn't show the planes age. From what I've read here, the dispatch rate for AC's 767s isn't the best but still acceptable.

Besides the Cseries and additional E190s, some have kicked around the idea of AC becoming a 737MAX operator in the future. I'm not an insider so I don't know if that is a realistic idea, but AC did mention fleet commonality as one of the chief reasons for ordering the 777/787s. So I guess if you solely look at it as a commonality advantage and couple it with some "possible" discounts due to the 787 delays, the 737MAX is doable, I think.

However the cost of integrating a brand new type into the fleet, on top of the 787s may be a bit overwhelming for AC.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 2):
The A330s are staying until replaced with larger versions of the B787.

In another thread, some mentioned that AC will be getting rid of the A333s as soon as the 787s arrive, but......

Quoting longhauler (Reply 2):

The Wide Body Fleet Plan changes daily.

so who knows what will end up happening with the venerable A330s. I would imagine the 787-9s won't arrive for another 4-5 years, at the earliest?

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineKermode From Canada, joined Jun 2012, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 13215 times:

Quoting bmibaby737 (Reply 3):
I believe C-FNVV 404 Airbus A320-211 has been wfu, it last flew on 02 February 2012?

C-FNVV and fin 404 (which is what I assume you meant) are two different aircraft. Fin 404 is registration C-FPWD, operated by Air Canada Jetz in all business and last flew YYT-YYZ at 7:27 this morning. C-FNVV has fin 416 and flew YYZ-YHZ at 6:46 this morning. So both are operating according to flightaware.

Quoting cx828 (Thread starter):
Almost all the A320 and 767 are more than 20 years old, did Air Canada plan to retire them

I would really hate to see the A320's go. They're a great workhorse for Air Canada and operate on all sorts of routes. AC keep them well maintained maintenance wise as well as the cabins as well, wouldn't be able to tell they're over20! Also from a pax perspective, they're incredibly comfortable. They're noticeably larger and more spacious than a 737. Additionally, project XM was only completed 5-6 years ago if I'm not mistaken. It would seem like a waste to order new aircraft now after all the money invested. And why would they bother if they do their job well?

I don't see Air Canada ordering the NEO or MAX but perhaps they can wait out these versions and be in early on the next new model narrow-body planes from Airbus or Boeing. I would think that AC could afford to wait until the new narrow body's from A or B inevitably come out. Perhaps being a launch customer or an early customer could be an option? It would give them more of a fuel efficiency cut than the NEO or MAX. And if Air Canada continue to operate their narrow-body's to over 20 years, a new design would allow them the highest level of fuel efficiency for the longest time. Instead of the NEO or MAX which will most likely be beaten by the newer narrow-body designs.

As for AC's E-Jets, they seem to be doing a fantastic job for what they we're designed to do. They are an incredibly flexible aircraft, operating trans-continental such as YYJ-YYZ and YLW-YYZ or can do short hops from Vancouver-Calgary. As a Canadian I would love to see the C-Series a part of Air Canada's fleet to have some Canadian in their aircraft   However capacity wise, it would be a step down. The CS300 which is the largest variant in a 2-class cabin can only tie the A319's capacity. If they didn't have the E-Jets I think the C-Series would be a fantastic option however as we all know, they are performing well and I don't see a place for the C-Series.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 2):
The present plan is to transfer some of the B767s to the LCC, and replace the rest with B787s due to arrive whenever. There is a slight increase in mainline capacity with this present plan.

The A330s are staying until replaced with larger versions of the B787.

It's great that the A330's will stay along a little while longer! They're a beautiful plain I believe especially in Air Canada's livery. Yes the 787 is nicer and better in essentially every aspect however they're great to see at the airport.


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One thing I'm not to keen on is that the 787's will replace the 767's and A330's essentially 1 for 1. With 37 on order and 38 767's and 330's currently in the fleet. I read on another longhauler post that no aircraft will be retired until after 15 are delivered so perhaps some new routes will open up then, but other than that it appears no major route changes in the works with no available aircraft to do so with.

Kermode and his   


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2226 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 11758 times:

AC also has substantial options on the 787. Previous threads have identified that the current split of 8's to 9's for the 37 is half and half. I don't think the 320's are going anywhere anytime soon or at least for 5 to 8 years. The oldest ones might be returned to leasors and options exercised for more EJets to fill the gap. I would watch for a 320neo or 737max order within a few years with deliveries further out.

User currently offlineKermode From Canada, joined Jun 2012, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 11198 times:

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 6):

AC also has substantial options on the 787

Currently they have 37 on order. They started out with 14 on order and 46 options, then exercised 23 of those options and are left with 23 for a total of 60 planes.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 6):
The oldest ones might be returned to leasors

I agree, I'm not sure when but I'm sure some of those leases are due to expire in the upcoming years. Perhaps they could lease some newer birds to help with performance and fill the gap before their next order?

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 6):
I would watch for a 320neo or 737max order within a few years with deliveries further out.

Yes this would seem like the most obvious thing to do, their narrow bodies are in need of replacing soon. When are the next slots for the NEO or MAX available? the MAX doesn't have EIS until 2017 and the NEO in 2015 but both of these programs will be booked solid for years. NEO has 1600 orders and MAX has 451 according to Wikipedia (not the most accurate). I think that waiting until the next clean slate design is a real possibility as it would greatly improve the economics of the aircraft.

Am I the only one thinking this?  


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10990 times:

I don´t believe that the CSeries or EJets will be able to replace the A32x in AC fleet. I also don´t see Air Canada becoming an all Boeing airline so I would say, it is likely that in a few years we will see an order for the A320NEO.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 4):
They're a beautiful plain

Best description I have ever heard regarding the A330  



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinecx828 From Hong Kong, joined May 2007, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10895 times:
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SO when the start to lease the new A320neo and start to operate, the original AC 320 will become almost 30 years old then.

User currently offlineGregsterYUL From Canada, joined Oct 2011, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9819 times:

Quoting cx828 (Reply 9):

Well AC flew their DC-9s for about 35 years.. the Ejets won't even see 25 years from what I hear from AC mx people. AC is "happy" with the ejets but they aren't happy with the constant issues involving hydraulic systems and air frame corrosion. The A320s will be around for I'd say another 10-12 years. The mx work is excellent and they all got new interiors. ACs biggest focus now is cutting costs and getting the 787s in.

Trust me on this, The federal govt won't be pressuring AC to buy the Cseries anytime soon (AC and Bombardier have an interesting relationship to say the least)... Just like they won't be buying 737s anytime soon. Airbus scandal aside AC was going to pick the A320 over the 737 back in the 80s simply because the A320 checked every box on the list. One of those requirements was the aircraft needed to fly YYZ/YUL to YVR with a full load. Which at the time the 737 could not, the only thing boeing had was the 757/767 which was to much aircraft. Don't forget the A320 was replacing Air Canada's 727s (which were later sold to FedEx) in the very early 90s while other carriers were flying 727s up until 2001.


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9657 times:

Quoting GregsterYUL (Reply 10):
in the very early 90s while other carriers were flying 727s up until 2001.

Well, in Europe it was also in the early 90s when all the major airlines replaced their 727s with A32x. Only a few US majors flew the 727 that long.

Quoting GregsterYUL (Reply 10):
Which at the time the 737 could not,

Times have changed and the 737 is very well able to fly transcon routes. I still believe we will see the NEO as the logical replacement, as they already have the infrastructure to fly and maintain the A32x. Also I don´t believe that Air Canada wants to become all Boeing and with a long haul fleet of 787 and 777 there is no room for Airbus anymore for the time being. Also the 737Max does not offer much commonality with the 787 so it does not matter if crews from the A320 or 737 will switch to the big Boeings, as they will both need the same training.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19408 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9298 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 4):
So I guess if you solely look at it as a commonality advantage and couple it with some "possible" discounts due to the 787 delays, the 737MAX is doable, I think.

Then again, there is the A330/A340 fleet and commonality there. And when you are talking about an operation the size of AC, economies of scale become large enough that commonality isn't all that important.


User currently offlinebmibaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1797 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6800 times:

Quoting Kermode (Reply 5):
C-FNVV and fin 404 (which is what I assume you meant) are two different aircraft. Fin 404 is registration C-FPWD, operated by Air Canada Jetz in all business and last flew YYT-YYZ at 7:27 this morning. C-FNVV has fin 416 and flew YYZ-YHZ at 6:46 this morning. So both are operating according to flightaware.

I was referencing C-FNVV construction number of 404. I believe it re-entered service a few days ago, so sorry about that!


User currently offlinebmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6493 times:

Quoting wpigott (Reply 1):
The 767s are going to be replaced by 787s when they start arriving at the end of 2013,

Has AC been notified by Boeing of a change in delivery schedule? Last time I heard, first 787 wouldn't be delivered to AC until spring 2014.

[Edited 2012-06-25 05:50:03]


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4865 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6384 times:

Quoting wpigott (Reply 1):

Retiring the A330 fleet & then B767 fleet...? I guess from a resale perspective makes sense to retire the A330's but is there demand for the type considering airlines will soon commence accepting delivery of the long awaited B787...?

EK413



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