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Future Of Toledo Express Airport  
User currently offlinedoulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 529 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6247 times:

I was just on Toledo Express Airports website and discovered only American Eagle has service to ORD and Allegiant Air has service to Orlando-Sanford and St.Petersburg. What is causing the lack of air service at TOL. How far is DTW from Toledo? Back in Toledo's hey day they had Delta,Eastern,United,Lake Central(merged with Allegheney in 1967). Any others? Bax Global closed their hub also. What kind of future will TOL have?

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3733 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6228 times:

This article presents an interesting perspective:
http://www.toledoblade.com/local/201...-for-help-in-airport-s-growth.html

Regarding driving distance: DTW is a 55-minute drive from downtown Toledo, while TOL is a 30-minute drive. With the sheer amount of service available at DTW (often at lower fares), most simply drive the extra 25 minutes.



Primary Airport: FWA/Alternate Airport: DTW/Not employed by the FWACAA or their partners
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1677 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6120 times:
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I think the future is now for cities like TOL, RFD, close to hubs etc.

They cannot support service to other hubs airports without massive subsidies (ie F9 in RFD). These are niche airports. They can have flights to cities where these is a large OD such as MCO/SFB, LAS, CUN. Also these airports should really push cargo as the nearby hub is usally space constrained, congested and expensive.

It is clear to me that legacy airline service to cities that lie within 100 miles of a major hub is dead and wont be coming back. For various reasons that I wont type here cuz I don t like typing. But lets looks that the body count for failed legacy service to cities close to a hub:

TTN
Worchester
ILG
Hickory
Athens, GA
MCN
TOL
RFD
JVN
CWA
COU
SAE
etc


User currently offlinemetjetCEO From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 412 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5986 times:

If I am not mistaken they still do a descent amount of cargo volume with BAX/ATI.

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22865 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5909 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 2):
But lets looks that the body count for failed legacy service to cities close to a hub:

To be fair, CWA has sustained a sensible amount of service (perhaps you meant EAU?), and COU is a rare EAS success story. Of course, both of those are also quite a lot further from hub airports than the likes of TOL or STC.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5893 times:

Quoting metjetCEO (Reply 3):
If I am not mistaken they still do a descent amount of cargo volume with BAX/ATI.


BAX closed the Toledo hub last year -- http://www.toledoblade.com/local/201...-Toledo-Express-700-jobs-lost.html

A company called BX Solutions took over the facility, but they are a ground only shipping company -- http://www.toledonewsnow.com/story/1...press-airport?clienttype=printable

[Edited 2012-06-25 18:27:18]

User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2001 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5733 times:

Ugh.....   

For the near future, the airport will be here to serve a small niche local (regional) fliers who like to fly out of here to the leisure destinations that are offered on Allegiant. I'm sure we will see PGD picked up by Allegiant here in November and it could end up being even better off then SFB and PIE (PIE actually performs better of the two). American has a distinct advantage serving the market getting TO Toledo. They seem to be very happy with what they are doing which is running about 70% loads for now. Of course, I just found out today they (AA) canned everyone that has worked with TOL in the past which means new relationships have to be formed. If there was any growth, I would see the likes of F9 and maybe SY. I still think F9 has a good chance of happening as F9's popularity is on the up and up with the loss of AirTran to the smaller markets. F9 would be a good fit at 4x weekly with A319s ... just my own opinion though.

The airport is always going to be around. There is big business right now for the on demand cargo flowing through the airport to feed all of the auto plants in the area. Things have seemed to have slowed slightly, but they are still positive. The 180th is out there and they are flying active missions. They aren't going anywhere any time soon - admittedly because of a strong House Rep.

The direction the airport goes, is purely up to the institution that runs it. It could continue down the current path or things can change. This just isn't related to passengers...there are things that make no sense at this airport for a metro area of it's size. No 135 operator based on the field, no flight school, there are hardly any Cirrus or TAA based on the field, the corporate aircraft base is very small compared to the companies of size in the area...it's just strange. Basically what I'm saying is a cultural change is needed and someone who is pro AVIATION not just pro flying TOL is needed. Things start from the top down so if they want to make things better, then they need to start and get their buddies (or cronies) in on it too. Just starts with a few...   


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1677 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5732 times:
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Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
To be fair, CWA has sustained a sensible amount of service (perhaps you meant EAU?), and COU is a rare EAS success story. Of course, both of those are also quite a lot further from hub airports than the likes of TOL or STC.

sorry, yes EAU, not CWA. CWA isnt too close to a hub...my bad.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5670 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 1):
DTW is a 55-minute drive from downtown Toledo, while TOL is a 30-minute drive.

Do you drive like a grandma? It is more like a 35 min drive from Downtown Toledo to DTW unless there is heavy traffic in Toledo area because pretty much north of the Ohio border to DTW isn't that heavy of traffic on I-75/275


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5626 times:

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 6):
If there was any growth, I would see the likes of F9 and maybe SY.

Please research SY's route map and let me know if you think TOL fits.

SY inaugurated LAN on behalf of Apple Vacations. With TOL in close proximity to DTW (and to a lesser extent, CLE) and lacking a FIS, it'd have to command a significant premium to make Apple's international flights successful. Otherwise, it's much cheaper sell packages to the Toledo-area from DTW and CLE.

RDF can also credit F9 partially to Apple (similar to SY in LAN), since F9 was operating many of Apple's charters before deciding to inaugurate regularly scheduled service. Of course, F9 was enticed by a one-year, $700K revenue guarantee. Who would be surprised if F9 dropped service at the conclusion of the deal?



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4581 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5511 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
Do you drive like a grandma? It is more like a 35 min drive from Downtown Toledo to DTW unless there is heavy traffic in Toledo area because pretty much north of the Ohio border to DTW isn't that heavy of traffic on I-75/275

Rude much? There are days when I've seen 75 pretty slow through Monroe, but yeah it isn't too bad. However, we also have to be realistic that the bulk of Toledo travelers aren't coming from Downtown or the Point. They are going to be coming from West Toledo or the Southern/Western burbs.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 9):
SY inaugurated LAN on behalf of Apple Vacations. With TOL in close proximity to DTW (and to a lesser extent, CLE) and lacking a FIS, it'd have to command a significant premium to make Apple's international flights successful. Otherwise, it's much cheaper sell packages to the Toledo-area from DTW and CLE.

The international stuff obviously is a no-go from TOL at this point unless an area of the airport is upgraded to include FIS. However, domestic options are there though they would tend to start overlapping with G4.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 9):
Who would be surprised if F9 dropped service at the conclusion of the deal?

Depends. What do their loads and yields look like?


User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5289 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 10):
The international stuff obviously is a no-go from TOL at this point unless an area of the airport is upgraded to include FIS. However, domestic options are there though they would tend to start overlapping with G4.

Apple Vacations has served airports lacking a FIS, with the aircraft making a stop on the inbound flight. For example, the Apple/Funjet charters into FNT stopped in DFW as well as DTW. Obviously such a stop (including expanded routing) adds significant costs to the flight. Given that the Mexico/Caribbean-bound TOL market is already driving to DTW (as well as CLE), any flight from TOL would have to command a substantial premium. Market stimulation would be at the low-end, so such service is unlikely to happen.

Mexico/Caribbean is Apple's biggest interest, primarily because of the high margins many packages enjoy (as much as 40% on many hotels). Florida is secondary. I'm unaware of any market Apple's added charter service in recent years that lacked Mexico/Caribbean flying.



Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8228 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5286 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 2):
Worchester

I think you mean Worcester- ORH. You'll only give yourself away as a foreigner if you're anywhere near New England and insert an 'H,' whether in text or in speech.  

Frankly, I think TOL is dead when it comes to commercial passenger service beyond fractionals. There's just no reason for an airport so close to CLE and DTW to have any kind of service anymore. You can drive to one of the 2 and fly direct almost anywhere just as fast as you can fly and connect.

I mean, honestly, if Cleveland is worried about retaining service, Toledo hasn't got a hope.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7396 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5259 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 1):
Regarding driving distance: DTW is a 55-minute drive from downtown Toledo, while TOL is a 30-minute drive. With the sheer amount of service available at DTW (often at lower fares), most simply drive the extra 25 minutes.
Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
Do you drive like a grandma? It is more like a 35 min drive from Downtown Toledo to DTW unless there is heavy traffic in Toledo area because pretty much north of the Ohio border to DTW isn't that heavy of traffic on I-75/275
Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 10):
There are days when I've seen 75 pretty slow through Monroe,

75 is a real headache going through the Detroit area so it could take a lot longer than 35 minutes.


Do you guys think a rail line would be viable between these two, especially to DTW?

if that actually happens, you can kiss goodbye to TOL having any service at all



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5201 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
75 is a real headache going through the Detroit area so it could take a lot longer than 35 minutes.


Do you guys think a rail line would be viable between these two, especially to DTW?

Huh, how do go through the Detroit area on I-75 to get to DTW from TOL? You take I-75 to I-275 through mostly open fields and lightly populated towns when you are in Michigan.

I'd say very little chance of rail service. However, the Toledo public transit authority could offer subsidized bus service to DTW like the Ann Arbor transit authority is doing -- http://www.myairride.com/. However, I'm guessing the TOL airport folks would scream bloody murder if they did.

[Edited 2012-06-26 19:06:53]

User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5076 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 10):
Rude much? There are days when I've seen 75 pretty slow through Monroe, but yeah it isn't too bad. However, we also have to be realistic that the bulk of Toledo travelers aren't coming from Downtown or the Point. They are going to be coming from West Toledo or the Southern/Western burbs.

That probably was just when they were doing the construction on I-75 through Monroe, which I don't understand what they fixed because it is still bumpy as hell. I would say the drive from TOL to DTW is over an hour, but no way the drive between Downtown Toledo and Eureka Rd exit for DTW should take you more than 30-40 min if you are driving the speedlimit. I have never had traffic problems in the Toledo area (even at rush hour) unless there is a wreck blocking a couple lanes. Driving the speed limit it takes me 45 min driving from Livonia to I-75/I-280 interchange (which is about a mile from Downtown Toledo.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 12):
Frankly, I think TOL is dead when it comes to commercial passenger service beyond fractionals. There's just no reason for an airport so close to CLE and DTW to have any kind of service anymore. You can drive to one of the 2 and fly direct almost anywhere just as fast as you can fly and connect.

If TOL did their marketing right, they are a perfect candidate for an ultra LCC airport. They need to work more with Allegiant since Allegiant won't touch DTW or CLE, try to get FFT to DEN and maybe MCO (since FFT been flying to MCO out of a lot of small airports with E190s like Allentown, Madison, Omaha etc). Toledo is a city of 300,000 people, they should be able to sustain an airport. They have a catchment area for all of Northwest Ohio, south to Findlay, east to Port Clinton/Sandusky. If they could build up some ultra LCC flights - they could catch people out of Monroe MI and even some people in the downriver Detroit suburbs that may only be 15 min away from DTW but would fly out of TOL to save money.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
75 is a real headache going through the Detroit area so it could take a lot longer than 35 minutes.

You aren't going through the Detroit area when you drive between Toledo and DTW. Other than Monroe, everything between Toledo and DTW is boonies

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
Do you guys think a rail line would be viable between these two, especially to DTW?

NEVER. Down here in Florida, we can't even get a high speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando (theme parks and MCO). Rail lines have never worked in Detroit - it is the MOTOR CITY, people in Detroit take pride in driving their cars and so do they in Toledo I am sure (except they like their Jeeps). They tried rail lines in Detroit a few times - they have plenty of railroads that run from the suburbs to Detroit, infact one rides on the north perimeter of DTW - Norfolk and Southern.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the big CSX railyard that you pass by in Toledo when you are heading southbound on I-75 right before it curves to the west and passes the big Jeep plant is the same CSX rail line that runs just to the west of DTW.

The biggest road block would be they would still need to do repairs on the tracks to make it up to passenger standards (especially if they want to go highspeed rail). Who is going to pay for it? State of Ohio? Michigan? Michigan isn't going to want to pay for it since its residents won't use it. We can't even get a rail line built between Tampa and Disney/MCO and that is within the state - but Toledo to DTW is between 2 states. Why would the state of Ohio want to pay for a train that mostly runs in Michigan, when that would basically be the death of TOL?


ok you said west Toledo, the other person said Downtown. There is no way that it should take you over an hour (barring a serious accident) to drive from Downtown Toledo to DTW. It is probably quicker to drive from Downtown Toledo to DTW than it is to drive from Downtown Detroit to DTW.

Ok you will note that I live in Florida (parents live in Livonia MI -which is 15 min north of DTW) however in the past year I drove 8 times between Livonia and the Toledo area and each time it took me barely 45 min (and I said Livonia is 15 min north of DTW yet). I was driving the speed limit too, I don't like to mess with Ohio cops and the cops on I-275 (which are mainly the cops of the suburbs it goes through between Livonia and DTW).

When I say Toledo area, I mean the southside as in almost Perrysburg. Whenever I drive south down 75 leaving Livonia, whether it is driving my parents to Florida for the winter or when I stayed with my parents last summer and drove to Dayton Air Show or the AF Museum another day I always stop at the Tim Hortons off of I-75 and Buck Rd. I have timed it

[Edited 2012-06-27 05:38:31 by SA7700]

User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4978 times:

TOL's outlook would be much different if Detroit's main airport had been built north or east of downtown Detroit.

Before World War II, most air service in the Detroit area was out of DET. However, DET could not accomodate DC-4s, so after the war, air service had to be moved elsewhere. AA wanted to move to DTW (then known as "Wayne Major Airport" or the "Detroit Industrial Airport), because it was closer to downtown than YIP. However, YIP's facilities were deemed better than DTW's, so the airlines moved from DET to YIP temporarily, pending a final decision on a new airport for Detroit.

The three proposals that were seriously considered were (1) a man made island in Lake St. Clair, (2) a location due north of Detroit in Warren, in the area where the General Motors Technical Center was subsequently built, and (3) converting YQG to a joint US-Canadian airport, with a new span of the Ambassador Bridge and a dedicated road from the new bridge to the US domestic terminal, so passengers would not need to clear Canadian customs. If Detroit's airport had been built at any of these locations, travellers from Toledo would have to drive through downtown Detroit to get to it, and many of these passengers would gladly fly out of TOL to avoid this drive.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4581 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4869 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 16):
TOL's outlook would be much different if Detroit's main airport had been built north or east of downtown Detroit.

I would think if the location of Toledo's main airport also plays into this. The other options before it was built was in West Toledo proper, downtown (east side) along the river, and of course current day TDZ (Metcalf / Executive Airport). This would make it closer into to the bulk of the population or at least easier direct access. TOL's main access crutch is over congested Airport Hwy / SR 2 and tolls on 80/90 (combined with limited local access ramps).

A lot of would've, could've, should'ves...but it is what it is. Though I wouldn't be against development of a new intermodal facility at Executive Airport and moving all train/bus service there as well. It would require upgrades to the runways and other facilities though. At the end of the day the cost is probably too high, especially with the bulk of the growth in the Metro Toledo area being on the South and West sides of town.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4741 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 17):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 16):TOL's outlook would be much different if Detroit's main airport had been built north or east of downtown Detroit.
I would think if the location of Toledo's main airport also plays into this.

How long has Toledo's airport been in its present location? Did any other airports in Toledo have scheduled airline service?

At least seven airports in the Detroit area have had scheduled air service at one time or another: DET, YQG, YIP, DTW, PTK (which was served as a stop on North Central's YIP-PTK-FNT-MBS route in the late 1950s and early 1960s), Ford Airport in Dearborn (which was located between the Dearborn Inn and Greenfield Village; the Dearborn Inn was built for passengers flying out of Ford Airport, and was the world's first airport hotel), and Troy Airport on 15 Mile Road between Coolidge and Crooks, which had commuter service briefly in the early 1970s.

Did I overlook any Detroit area airports?



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4581 posts, RR: 23
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4695 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 18):
How long has Toledo's airport been in its present location? Did any other airports in Toledo have scheduled airline service?

1955...long before the western suburbs really got going. Before that all scheduled serviced was out of TDZ - which would have been United, C&S, and a few others.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4677 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 16):
The three proposals that were seriously considered were (1) a man made island in Lake St. Clair, (2) a location due north of Detroit in Warren, in the area where the General Motors Technical Center was subsequently built, and (3) converting YQG to a joint US-Canadian airport, with a new span of the Ambassador Bridge and a dedicated road from the new bridge to the US domestic terminal, so passengers would not need to clear Canadian customs. If Detroit's airport had been built at any of these locations, travellers from Toledo would have to drive through downtown Detroit to get to it, and many of these passengers would gladly fly out of TOL to avoid this drive.

There was a proposal in the late 1980s, maybe early 1990s to make Selfridge Field a joint military/commercial facility too. I also recall hearing about a plan to build a commercial airport in the Novi/Walled Lake area well before that got developed.

As for the manmade island in Lake St. Claire, wouldn't it have made more sense again just to convert Selfridge into a joint field - they would already have the runway to handle jets. They probably could have fit a parallel runway in there and put the terminal facilities on the west side of the field while military base would be on the east.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 17):
A lot of would've, could've, should'ves...but it is what it is. Though I wouldn't be against development of a new intermodal facility at Executive Airport and moving all train/bus service there as well. It would require upgrades to the runways and other facilities though. At the end of the day the cost is probably too high, especially with the bulk of the growth in the Metro Toledo area being on the South and West sides of town.

Metcalf is the small airport south of downtown off of I-280 and just north of the Ohio Turnpike? I stopped there to get a picture of the Metlife Snoopy blimp when I went through there last year. That is an awefully small airport. Other than I think a high school that was just to the southeast of it and some businesses on the south, there was plenty of room to expand.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 18):
At least seven airports in the Detroit area have had scheduled air service at one time or another: DET, YQG, YIP, DTW, PTK (which was served as a stop on North Central's YIP-PTK-FNT-MBS route in the late 1950s and early 1960s), Ford Airport in Dearborn (which was located between the Dearborn Inn and Greenfield Village; the Dearborn Inn was built for passengers flying out of Ford Airport, and was the world's first airport hotel), and Troy Airport on 15 Mile Road between Coolidge and Crooks, which had commuter service briefly in the early 1970s.

Did I overlook any Detroit area airports?

Troy Airport actually is off of Coolidge rather than 15 Mile (which is called Maple Rd in that area of town). I am not totally sure but I think a few others had some sort of air taxi/commuter service

I was trying to read if Berz Macomb - north of Warren and Big Beaver Airport in Troy - both long gone had some sort of commuter service because I thought they did but I found no evidence

http://www.airfields-freeman.com/MI/Airfields_MI_Detroit_NW.html

I believe Ann Arbor Airport (ARB) just south of I-94 and State St did at one time have air taxi. I was also thinking that Grosse Isle Airport had some sort of commuter service.

There was another airport that no one probably knows about, a lot of people don't know either was a little airport in Farmington Hills on Orchard Lake b/t 12 and 13 mile Rd called Krist Port. It did have freight service there, and possible passenger service. The old terminal still exists as a car wash - you can see the observation deck/tower on the roof of the car wash.

As for Ford Airport being the first to have an airport hotel - it was the first for many other things - First airport terminal, first paved runway, first lighted runway and first scheduled service.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4581 posts, RR: 23
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4657 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 20):
Metcalf is the small airport south of downtown off of I-280 and just north of the Ohio Turnpike? I stopped there to get a picture of the Metlife Snoopy blimp when I went through there last year. That is an awefully small airport. Other than I think a high school that was just to the southeast of it and some businesses on the south, there was plenty of room to expand.
http://www.airnav.com/airport/TDZ/

Yeah it is pretty small. That high school (Lake High School) you can see on Google Earth where they are demolishing the portions that was struck by an EF4 tornado a few years back. Otherwise yes, plenty of room to expand. Might have to realign a new runway to be more N/S to fit between the major railroad yard and I-280. Access to it is almost perfect. Right off SR 795 and I-280.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4577 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 20):
As for the manmade island in Lake St. Claire, wouldn't it have made more sense again just to convert Selfridge into a joint field - they would already have the runway to handle jets. They probably could have fit a parallel runway in there and put the terminal facilities on the west side of the field while military base would be on the east.

The man made island was proposed in the late 1940s (pre I-94), and would have been off the Grosse Pointes. The proposal called for, of all things, a combined airport and city park with baseball diamonds. I don't know why they didn't suggest joint use of Selfridge, but my guess would be that it would have been too long of a drive from downtown.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 20):
There was another airport that no one probably knows about, a lot of people don't know either was a little airport in Farmington Hills on Orchard Lake b/t 12 and 13 mile Rd called Krist Port. It did have freight service there, and possible passenger service. The old terminal still exists as a car wash - you can see the observation deck/tower on the roof of the car wash.

That's amazing. I've driven Orchard Lake a lot (I grew up in B'ham), and never noticed the car wash. What is the name of the car wash? I'll have to look for it the next time I'm back in Detroit!



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4535 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 21):
Yeah it is pretty small. That high school (Lake High School) you can see on Google Earth where they are demolishing the portions that was struck by an EF4 tornado a few years back. Otherwise yes, plenty of room to expand. Might have to realign a new runway to be more N/S to fit between the major railroad yard and I-280. Access to it is almost perfect. Right off SR 795 and I-280.

Is there a railroad yard there? I don't remember passing over a track or was it on the west side? I remember seeing an RJ Corman caboose across the street from it but I thought it was just on display. I saw construction around the school, thought they were building a new one. To make it a commercial airport they would probably need to widen the runway to 150 ft, I don't recall the runway being all that wide.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 22):
The man made island was proposed in the late 1940s (pre I-94), and would have been off the Grosse Pointes. The proposal called for, of all things, a combined airport and city park with baseball diamonds. I don't know why they didn't suggest joint use of Selfridge, but my guess would be that it would have been too long of a drive from downtown.

True, Selfridge back in the 1940s would have been out in the middle of nowhere as Mt. Clemens probably wasn't considered a suburb of Detroit. Selfridge is further from Detroit than YIP is. Selfridge would still be a good alternate for an airport on the northeast side if they ever totally close Selfridge, which they seem to keep getting closer and closer to doing every couple years - aren't the A-10s leaving soon with some new base reallignment thing?

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 22):
That's amazing. I've driven Orchard Lake a lot (I grew up in B'ham), and never noticed the car wash. What is the name of the car wash? I'll have to look for it the next time I'm back in Detroit!

I heard about it back in 2005 and checked it out summer 2005, that is the last time I been on Orchard Lake. Supposedly its an auto repair shop at last report in 2006. Hopefully they haven't knocked it down and put something else there. It is mentioned on this site though, just look for Krist Port

http://www.airfields-freeman.com/MI/Airfields_MI_Detroit_NW.html


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3733 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4481 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 15):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
Do you guys think a rail line would be viable between these two, especially to DTW?

NEVER. Down here in Florida, we can't even get a high speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando (theme parks and MCO).

All three states (Florida, Michigan, and Ohio) have Republican governors that are adamantly opposed to high-speed rail. And in the case of FL and OH, the newly-elected governors killed plans for the Orlando-Tampa and 3C (CVG/CLE/CMH) HSR lines that were well under way.

All three of these governors are also up for re-election in 2014, which means that such previously-proposed lines may not be built for another decade.



Primary Airport: FWA/Alternate Airport: DTW/Not employed by the FWACAA or their partners
25 Post contains links michman : Oh really? Did you even bother to do any research about Michigan Governor Rick Snyder before making the statement? Apparently not. http://www.mlive.c
26 Post contains links ouboy79 : http://goo.gl/maps/4IHp To the west of the airport is the CSX (I believe) rail yard hub. The only issue is the lack of room for a runway over about 80
27 FWAERJ : I stand corrected... thanks for the link. I knew that John Kasich and Rick Scott pulled the plug on their states' HSR plans, and I thought Snyder did
28 toltommy : Thats an inaccurate statement. I oppose HSR because it can't be built or run without taxpayer subsidy! HSR as it has been proposed will never pay for
29 Post contains images PHX787 : It won't pass. Not for the next 10 years. People in Ohio don't like it. (At least the republicans )
30 CompensateMe : It is logical. The private sector hasn't built it because it's cost prohibitive.
31 NASCARAirforce : Florida has had a Republican governor since I lived here - first it was Jeb Bush, then Charlie Crist (who is a liberal Republican and may run again a
32 ouboy79 : Yeah...I think it is CSX that owns that one, I'm not certain though. Yeah I remember the big one up in Point Place. Detour would probably be more cos
33 toltommy : LOL, you do work for the Port Authority, don't you?
34 ouboy79 : Looking at their post history for the last 3 years since they joined, it is very heavy in topics about DTW, Delta, and some TOL.
35 NASCARAirforce : I remember TOL had the Burlington Air Express DC-8s and 727s for a while in the 1990s, then they went to ATI? Didn't Kalitta have a big operation the
36 Post contains links ouboy79 : Quick recap from memory, so dates might be off a bit. Burlington/BAX Global Hub moved to TOL in 91 or 93 from FWA. It remained in TOL until Sept 2011
37 NASCARAirforce : I miss seeing those old green and white DC-8s and 727s Are those old Hansa jets still parked at TOL? or they get scrapped and hauled off? Cargo compa
38 ouboy79 : I was up there about 6 months ago and they were all cleaned out. Definitely. While it is nice that the building isn't empty with BX Solutions using i
39 Post contains links CompensateMe : While Michael Boyd tries to sell extremist views, his thoughts on the future of air service to small communities is echoed thoughout the industry: htt
40 Post contains links PITrules : http://www.toledoblade.com/local/201...ts-boom-as-Toledos-nose-dives.html
41 PHX787 : And now I quote the first comment from below the story: Pretty much what I was going to say. DTW is HUGE. CLE is medium sized. You can't compare the
42 Cubsrule : Which markets, please? I can get a full fare ticket for around $1,000 from BNA to anywhere.
43 Post contains links KarlB737 : From the article linked in reply 40 a different writer in the Toledo Blade finally is stating the hard-core facts that I and many others have been poi
44 milesrich : The US will never have a good rail system, because that would make us too much like Europe. God forbid we should spend tax money on rail infrastructu
45 Cubsrule : The US is too large to have a European-style rail system on a large scale? Ever try to take the train from Paris to Warsaw? It's awful, but it's abou
46 PHX787 : There is no density that would appropriate a decent rail network. The only density is in the eastern seaboard and even then it's none too good.
47 skycub : I swear... for as many people there are on ANET who worry about Toledo... it is hard to believe any carrier flying there has a problem filling a plane
48 Post contains images HVNandrew : Not to go totally off topic... but that's one city that really should be able to support some sort of legitimate airline service. It's an hour and 45
49 KarlB737 : Nobody is "worrying" about Toledo. Many are commenting on a failure in leadership. Part of the reason for this disgust is because the rest of us are
50 enilria : I think the terminal will one day be used to dry and smoke meats for export to the Chinese market. That would allow them to claim they are still a ca
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